Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII

[Private-Prinny]

Notice: I received a PM from the creator of Braham, with regards to his Divine Crusader spell table. His copy of Complete Divine was misprinted (verified by a scan), and gave him an incorrect table for spell progression. This is now fixed.

[cd4]

I will give a vote to Sortes for the Honourable Mention.

My idea was a social rogue/X/DC with the trickery domain but I couldn't work out an X that would make DC worthwhile and I had real difficulty finding a god that gave trickery and had a finessable weapon that fit thematically. I also debated on using a non-D&D god and picking the weapon I wanted but I thought the judges might penalise that too much.

[Kefkafreak]

I originally wanted to use psionics, but I discarded the idea pretty soon. I see nobody used them either.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

SCORING

Build 1: Vald Lokkur

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Okay, you really surprised me, in several ways.

First off, I thought I was going to slap you down in the mechanics department about Arcane Archer, but then, after re-reading the ability Imbue Arrow, you are correct on both points: that it does not limit it to ARCANE spells, and that it flat defines the casting time + shooting arrow as a standard action. Bravo, man.

Second off, you do an excellent job of leveraging everything. You even leverage Weapon Specialization, by taking Ranged Weapon Mastery. Again, I thought I was going to have to smack down Elegance since I thought that Ranged Weapon Mastery required Fighter levels, as Weapon Specialization normally does. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I was incorrect.

And third off, kudos on making an excellent story, and blending it all together into a cohesive whole.

Points:

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Creativity: 4.5
No, really. Arcane Archer? And I would have never thought of Abjuration Champion to combo with Hexblade!

Power: 4.0
Casting spells that normally take 10 minutes as a standard action? Yes, please! Setting up Battlefield Control, then being immune to it? Awesome! The only reason you didn't score higher is that your 9th level spell is... sub-par. XP cost, and a lesser version of Control Weather for a 9th level spell limits your power, compared to, say, Miracle. Also, while your battlefield control is high, your damage output, for a high-end character, is generally sub-par.

Having said that, awesome synergy with Arcane Archer, your entire spell list, Ranged Weapon Mastery, and your other class abilities!

As a question: you explicitly mention Intimidate as a skill you kept capped. Why didn't you go for Imperious Command and leverage it into an actually useful SoL ability?

Elegance: 4.5
Why was it not a perfect 5.0? Arctic Elf. I passionately dislike templates. It would normally have brought it down a full point, but seeing as how it wasn't over-powered, and fit in with the whole thing, I cut back the penalty in half.
Furthermore, I don't see what advantage Abjurant Champion had over more Hexblade. The only spell which is modified by this dip is an auto-quicken and auto-extend Protection from Law. Granted, it's handy, both for negating mind-affecting and for the bonus on AC, but really... there's no reason you had to blow a feat to get into this PrC. At Hexblade 7, you get Greater Hexblade Curse, which makes up for the lost AC, and it's not like you can't pre-buff yourself before combat, since the build focuses on ambushing anyways. If you absolutely HAD to go AbChamp, I'd have gone AbChamp1 and Hexblade7. You get the auto-extend for your Protection from Law, AND your Greater Hexblade Curse.

For either of these, I might have forgiven it entirely. But the combination of these two points lost you a half point and kept you from attaining a perfect 5 in this category.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5
I don't often pass out 5's. To me, a 5 means 'this is the epitome and defining iconic build of this category' or 'this is the bar to which all others must strive to attain'. This build is both. You could not have done what you just did with any other class. You utilized EVERY aspect of the Secret Ingredient to blend together to make a more complete whole. Your entire build's flavor, from level one on up, immortalize and emphasize being a champion of your chosen deity.

Total score: 18

I never expected to see anything like that. Having seen it, I must change my viewpoint, and wonder how anything else can compare.

Build 2: Norrin Radd of Zenn-La, Herald of Galactus

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You Magnificant Bastard! You killed your chances at decent UoSI score, but I strongly suspect you considered it a willing sacrifice for your other stats.

You've got some mechanical... questions... in your build. That's going to hurt your Elegance score. Mind you, it could have been a LOT worse for you if you hadn't explained yourself, so you actually DO get an okay Elegance score. But... yea.

Having said that, this build is my choice for Honorable Mention.

Points:

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Creativity: 3.0

Known Cheese: DMM, Enervation optimization. As a general rule of thumb, if you can legitimately say 'You all know the drill here', then expect this to be a hit here. Furthermore, Paladin was an expected entry. Having said that, you did have some unique concepts in this build, so it all kind of balances out.

Power: 3.0
You've got some powerful combinations, but lots of things are immune to your shtick (constructs and undead, mostly), with almost nothing you can do if they are, unless you try for Minionmancy shennanigans, which will hurt you a LOT more in the Elegance department. So I'm going to assume you aren't trying to bypass the 'no leadership' clause through Fill The Ranks.

Elegance: 2.0
Okay, really? On the one hand, I have to give you props: you used a splatbook I don't personally own (Five Nations). However, you've got some mechanical problems here.

First, you used a Trait. That's almost as bad as a flaw, but not quite.

Second, you are using material from both Eberron AND Forgotten Realms. Pick one or the other, but not both, mmmkay?

Third, you're using templates. Granted, it's an acquired template, and you played fair with it, but it's still templating. So instead of the full point dock, you're only getting a half-point dock.

Fourth, you used sourcebook so obscure that I don't even OWN it.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1

Only took one level of Secret Ingredient. In fact, you barely qualified for this competition.

In short: Bone Knight hurt you *FAR* more than it helped. I don't really see what it did, other than turn Paladin abilities back on, which other classes can do equally well without questionable rules interpretations. This is being nice and assuming you aren't going for Minionmancy, which would have... well... you wouldn't have liked what would have happened then.

TOTAL SCORE: 9

Having said that, you captured the essence of the Silver Surfer. The chosen Domain *PERFECTLY* suits Galactus, and I must give you mad props for doing this. Mechanically, your build may be iffy, but it's got one of the best flavors of the competition.

This build gets my vote for Honorable Mention.

Build 3: Mighty Casey

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Well, Casey certainly certainly stepped up to the plate here. Too bad you've got some issues.

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Creativity: 2.0
it seems to be a blend of well-known cheese... Knockback + Dungeoncrasher + Pouncebarian. Setting Sun throws + Dungeoncrasher is also well documented. Ubercharging without the Uber. I was half-expecting a self-buffing (with DMM Persist) Ubercharge build, but this isn't precisely that, thankfully.

Power: 3.0
You're a Charging Dungeoncrasher with casting support. You've negated some of the problems inherent in chargers (unable to reach flying, unable to target invisible), but when it all boils down to it, you're still just a charger with a few extra tricks. Also, you only get ONE swift action per round, so while you can very easily go Quicken True Strike at the start of your round, then charge and apply true strike to your first attack, it won't help the rest of your iterative attacks, barring RKV shenanigans.

Furthermore, you have some insanely powerful options that you completely neglect or frivolously squander. You practically ignore Contingency, you waste Time Stop, and you only have a passing mention for Foresight.

It's like purchasing a nuclear reactor so you'll always have hot water for your morning cuppa.

Having said that... you're still a Charger. You've got damage output, although it's fairly weak tea compared to most charge builds, and a decent chance of applying it.

Elegance: 1.5

You get a single Swift action per turn. Relying on True Strike is mutually exclusive with Pounce, since it doesn't affect iterative attacks, only the first one. So the Lion Totem dip is completely pointless. No, you can't have more than one swift action, your shady rules clarification forgot to mention one tiny little detail...

Swift Action

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

. This hurt you. Badly.

You have the insanely powerful Time Stop... then you squander it by being unable to do anything with it barring a bit of rebuffing. You fail to leverage Foresight or Contingency. You fail to leverage

You've got Dips. Almost the first half of your build is nothing but 'go into this class for x, and this class for y, and this class for z'. In eight levels, you have three base classes. Pouncebarian was the worst, since you can't really leverage your True Strike at the same time you Pounce, making them mutually exclusive.

And you have failed to meet prerequisites for Sudden Leap at 2nd character level, because it requires one other TC maneuver.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5

To be fair, this is about what I was expecting, but you failed to even leverage the most broken spells in the game. You would have done much better to not bother with DC and just gone boilerplate-standard Ubercharger. Your damage output and attack rolls would have been higher. However, you did at least take all 10 levels.

TOTAL SCORE: 9
In short, Casey didn't quite strike out, but he could've done a lot better if he hadn't ignored the first two pitches.

Build 4: Glimwyn Mardwicket, The Shadow Gnome

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When you said 'shadow gnome' I shuddered. When I saw 'shadowcraft mage', I cringed. And then you went there. Maybe not as badly as That Damn Gnome, but you're using the same trick.

You forgot to list Planar Handbook as a cited source for Chaotician.

And you would've done better to have boosted Hexblade casting than Divine Crusader casting. As it is, you pretty much created dead levels for yourself, wheras if it had advanced Hexblade casting, you could've gotten 2nd level arcane spells.

Points:

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Creativity: 1
Shadowcraft Gnome, by any other name, still smells as cheesy. Okay, so you didn't go all 5 levels for the extra 20% realism, but it's the same damn trick. The only reason you didn't get a 0 here is because Shadowcraft Gnome typically uses Sorcerer and arcane casting rather than divine.

Power:4.5
The primary reason you don't get a 5 here is that you don't have the 'greater than 100% realistic' code turned on, and you have limited endurance. But casting any spell ever? Yea, it's kind of like that. The other reason you didn't net a 5 is because you are now an Outsider, and didn't take advantage of Alter Self shennanigans.

You could also have used Shadowcraft Mage to advance Hexblade casting, instead of DC, which would have given you Alter Self, combined with Outsider, for all kinds of cheesy shenanigans.

Chaositician did nothing for you, power-wise. But it was good for the flavor, and there wasn't much else that could have slid in here that would have been more powerful.

Also, your build doesn't 'turn on' until level 18. That was the other deciding factor on not giving you a 5 on power.

Elegance: 3.0

One of the advantages of copypasting a CharOp build is that the CharOp guys make sure their builds work.

You lost Elegance by advancing DC and not Hexblade. By doing so, you created dead levels that could have been avoided, lost on the opportunity to exploit your outsider type. You gained Elegance because you only have a single base class, and everything mechanically fits.

I was strongly tempted to dock you more here for using Shadowcraft Mage, since most GM's would have hit you with your copy of Races of Stone for using it, but ultimately... it works by RAW *and* by RAI.

Chaotician is from an obscure source, which is not commonly found, much less accepted. That also docked a half point.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
Honestly, I don't think any other domain could have been leveraged as much by That Damn Gnome as the Illusion Domain. Having said that, I don't see why you didn't just use UrPriest for your 9's, with more spells per day. You went all ten levels, you leverage your spells properly. So it all balances out.

TOTAL SCORE: 11.5

Well whaddya know, copypasting CharOp builds CAN net you a decent score...

If the Silver Surfer gained my vote for Honorable Mention, this one earns my vote for Dishonorable Mention. Copypasting CharOp builds is bad, mmmkay?

Build 5: Mother Theressa

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You keep using that name PrC, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

Specifically, There's some limitations on War Weaver that you seem to be unaware of.

First off, Eldritch Tapestry means you need to build the weave, and you may only weave in a number of individuals equal to your primary arcane casting stat (CHA in your case). Granted, you started off with an 18, bumped it up to 23 with boosts, then I'll grant a +6 item for a total of 30. That gives you a maximum of 9 individuals in your weave. Not 'everyone within 30'.

Second off, Eldritch Tapestry may only be used on spells with a spell level equal to your War Weaver level. This means 2nd level spells at most.

You should also explicitly state that most of your healing comes from Healing Hymn. I am graciously going back and editing my judging with this ability in mind, but a mention would have been helpful, mmkay?

You get Mass CLW, which does what you try to do with War Weaver and CLW... only better, because it actually *DOES* hit everyone within Close range. In other words, a single spell just obviated your entire convoluted shenanigans.

Besides, at level 20, you have Mass Heal, which hits everyone within Close range for 110 points of healing, and removes almost all negative status effects. Why are you worried about CLW?

Points:

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Creativity: 4
I'll grant you this, I wasn't expecting Bard/War Weaver.

Power: 1.5
In combat healing is sub-optimal. And you can't even do that very well. You have Heal, Mass Heal, and Regenerate... and you are focusing on Cure Light Wounds.

Heck, even the spell Mass Cure Light Wounds obviates your dip into War Weaver, since it CAN heal everyone within Close range 1d8+ (CL) max 25. So at cap, with the Healing Domain benefit, you can heal for 1d8+11 + (perform ranks). So you obviate your 2 level dip into War Weaver with a single spell you pick up as a domain spell from your chosen domain. Huh?

Draconic Aura (Vigor) only provides Fast Healing 1 to those less than 1/2 health. If you had taken the feat Dragontouched, it would have been Fast Healing 5, but still caps out at 1/2 max health. Sorry, but Silverbrow Human only lets you take the feat, but doesn't boost it up.

Elegance: 2

Basically, you only use one base class, which is good. You pick up a PrC which normally does a lot for that class, but since you only took two levels, doesn't actually do much, and you don't have anything other than Reach CLW that benefits from it, and you pick up Mass CLW which obviates it and mass Heal which blows it away. Then you pick up DC, and... well... everything you did prior to that is kind of obviated.

Since CLW doesn't do what you think it does, Mass CLW obviates War Weaver, and you've got spellcasting which is stepping on each other's toes, rather than working together... yea.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2Your Secret Ingredient gains NOTHING from your previous levels, and you apparently don't bother leveraging anything FROM your Secret Ingredient. You do, however, at least take the Secret Ingredient class all the way.

TOTAL SCORE: 9.5

Ave Maria. It was a nice concept, and certainly one I was not expecting, but considering you have 9th level spells, and are focused on incorrectly using a 1st level spell... well, at least your heart is in the right place.

Build 6: Maken'srelli "Mad Maks"

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Mad Max... you, sir, get a cookie just for that.

Using a 3.0 resource is pretty ballsy.

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Creativity: 4
Ocular Adept I did not expect. Paladin I expected, and Blackguard, as the most obvious way to have an Evil Paladin, other than a Paladin of Tyranny (which would have been much more mechanically viable). However, Ocular Adept came out of left field, and I certainly wasn't expecting the Great Mother.

Power: 1.5
You've got three different spellcasting lists, none of them have more than a 6th level spell, and none of them particularly powerful. Paladin/Blackguard is a T5 class for a reason. Ocular Adept really didn't add much to power. And only taking 6 levels of a class that goes 1-9 in 10 levels really crippled you.

Well, actually, taking the Strength domain is what crippled you, since it doesn't have any spells over 6th level worth bothering with. And it's abilities really do almost nothing for you.

I almost see a glimmer of 'charge build', but without the charging. As it is, you have sub-par to pathetic damage output (even WITH Combat Brute, you still have no way to accurately hit your target, you'd have done better with Shock Trooper, honestly), and that's... pretty much the focus of your build. You have no way to target creatures with reasonable mid to high level defenses (flight, invisibility), and no way to compensate for your weaknesses.

Elegance: 3
No glaring rules violations, at least. One base class. Blackguard level exchange. Ocular Adept was in there, granted, for storyline. I can see that. And hey, since Strength Domain spells after 6th level suck anyways... why not?

Also, you did correct in NOT getting all 10 levels, plus Ocular Adept, because you wouldn't have been able to gain the abilities of an Ocular Adept, being a Native Outsider, rather than a Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid.

However, you've got three sub-par spell lists to draw from. That's very kludgy. You've got a damage multiplier (Combat Brute), but a) it's hard to activate (triggers the round FOLLOWING a charge... and if you didn't kill it with your charge, you're probably not going to survive the full round attack in response), and b) you have no accuracy enhancers to make sure that any of your attacks actually LAND.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2

You didn't finish it off. You do, however, at least use what you get. It would have done better with UrPriest, however. In fact, Pal1/Blackguard10/UrPriest9 would have done a much better job overall. Lack of BAB would have been overcome with Divine Power, you get Righteous Might, and much less hassles overall.

TOTAL SCORE: 10.5

Despite not being all that strong, I love the way you blended the flavors together. It's a very tasty entree, but rather weak overall.

Build 7: Braham, the half-elf Messiah

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Wow, now this is an interesting build. Half-Elf and Duskblade I did *NOT* expect. Very well done, and well put together. He's definitely viable Party Support, and a passable Tank as well.

I love the flavor, I love the simple, elegant, yet solid build.

Points:

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Creativity: 4.0
Half-elf I was not expecting, nor Duskblade.

Power: 4

You go out of your way to pick up the SRD Community domain for Greater Status, then you back it up with a solid line of buffs. Resistance looks nice... until you realize that everyone is already going to have at least a +1 resistance item, and it doesn't stack. Dimension Hop is a cute way to play Shell Games with everyone, and Swift Invisibility can either give a Rogue that one sneak attack he needs to finish a mob, or as a buff to conceal an ally from an almost certainly devastating counterattack from a not-quite-dead opponent. Bless is fun, but it won't stack with bardic inspiration. Swift Fly is a great way to make sure that you, or your allies, can reach flying targets, and Resist Energy is an excellent situational buff to tell a dragon, or a blastomancer, to go smeg off.

Most of your Duskblade spells are debuffs. Great for Arcane Channeling. Touch of Idiocy is an excellent way to nerf opponent casters. Ray of Enfeeblement is another good debuff. Every single one of your cantrips can be channeled. Not so good for Greater Status use.

Quick Cast + True Strike = good times. Excellent for hitting opponents with significant miss chance or insane AC. Swift Fly lets you still smack down something flying. Toss on Arcane Strike for additional damage output, bringing your damage capacity to 'below par for a striker, but adequate for your role as party support'. And it gives you something to use those slots that you don't need to use for the rest of the day. What would you do with three Hero's Feasts anyways? The duration lasts all day long.

And you are a viable Party Operator. How may I direct your call? And you do have good buffs. Hero's Feast, for example, Protection from Energy for those times when things throw energy damage around, Regroup and Refuge and Dimension Hop to shuffle the party around to their best benefit.

And decent bonus damage with Knowledge Devotion.

So, better than average, but not by much.

Elegance: 5
You have two classes, and one of them is the Secret Ingredient. You draw from a few, specific, commonly used sourcebooks (SRD + Complete + PhB II). It all works together. It just doesn't get more elegant than this.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5
And the primary reason it's not a 5 here as well is because you only have two real spells you plan on ever using in Greater Status. You take it all the way, you get into it early, you use all of it, and you do it well. Status kind of goes by the wayside once you get Greater Status, but you've got uses for everything else, and you can always use your 2nd level slots for more Bless if you don't have a party Bard.

TOTAL SCORE: 17.5

And all I have to say is... good job.

Build 8: Lord of Misfortune

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Well now, if any of these builds was truly a bastard, it's this one. Fortunately, that actually nets you points in a competition like this.

You've got some amazing synergy of abilities, all along the same theme of 'swing the nerf bat'.

You did surprise me with taking Divine Might and Divine Shield. I would have sworn that DMM would have been your shtick, particularly with Miracle being any spell you ever wanted to buff with. Divine Might is a free action, but Divine Shield is a Standard Action. Keep this in mind when planning for action economy.

Points:

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Creativity: 3.5
Paladin, and their variants, were expected venues of entry. Hexblade was not surprising either. Combining both... well, not really. Hexblade has Mettle, Paladin has CHA to saves... they go well together.

I didn't expect Chaosititian nor the Luck domain.

Power: 4

You have miracle as a spell. You use Deadly Touch in a unique manner. You've got solid defenses. You've got several nerf-bats, and self-buffs. You've got 'Get out of Trouble' cards, and ways to simply say 'no'. Oh yea, and you have Miracle. And, unlike the other build who uses it, you actually use Chaotician as a shut-down of casters with Babble.

DMM would have boosted this, but I can understand wanting to avoid Known cheese and a possible Elegance hit as well.

Elegance: 4.5
The Chaotician is from a very obscure source which might not be accepted at all tables. That's the primary thing that kept you from getting a 5 score here.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
You get in early, you go all the way with it, you use the spells you get well, although I think you skipped on mentioning Miracle cheese simply because you were afraid of getting docked more points in Elegance than it would gain you in Power. This whole domain is full of 'No' buttons, with a couple of 'do anything I want and get away with it' badges.

TOTAL SCORE: 16

If you are going to be a bastard, be a magnificent bastard like this guy.

Build 9: Uruk, Guardian of Ulutiu

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Honestly, the first thing I thought when I saw the build was 'oh gods, not another dungeoncrasher knockback charger build'. And... yea, that was pretty much a good description.

Points:

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Creativity: 2
Known Cheese... pretty much the first half of your build was boilerplate Charger, switching out Whirling Frenzy Pouncebarian for Favored Soul so you can qualify for secret ingredient earlier. I was expecting buffing chargers, and here's another one.

Power: 3
You run up and hit things. You do a lot of damage when you do so. But unfortunately, you don't have any way of hitting things with mid/high end protections (flight, invisibility,etc...). About the only advantage you have over more typical charger builds is Mind Blank.

AMF isn't as useful as you think it is. To use it like you want to use it, you first need to close with a caster. By this level, you don't have the means to do so. And you have no way, barring magic items (which are shut down in an AMF), of reaching flying opponents. And they have *MANY* ways of dealing with you, even with you being in an AMF. Like most of the Conjuration college.

Elegance: 1.5
Oh, come on now. Feral template? REALLY? And you did NOT expect to see a major hit on Elegance over it?

Jotunbrud is from Races of Faerun. At least you're keeping to one setting, I'll give you that, but it's still a rather obscure source.

Favored Soul also docked you for not being in keeping with the rest of the build.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
Well, you took it all the way to the end. You make use out of most of the spells, however you obviate the Weapon Specialization, since you can get that already, by virtue of having more than 4 levels in Fighter.

However, most of the heavy lifting is the fact that you are a Charger. A Charger with Third Eye: Conceal does what you can do. And do it better. Therefore, this is effectively interchangeable with any full BAB class out there that you qualify for.

TOTAL SCORE: 9

Your primary ability you brag about is decidedly a joke, and in the end, you're just another Charger with some self-buffing ability that could be duplicated with magic items.

Build 10: Nefarious Tate

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Well, it's different, anyways. I wasn't expecting a Nar Demonbinder. But you have one slight problem... nowhere in Nar Demonbinder OR in Divine Champion does it say that their CL stacks. So on that, you are incorrect. They have separate caster levels, because they have separate spell lists. Nor can you swap spells out on the two spell lists. This will hurt you in Power and Elegance.

Oh, and telling us which domain you used might have helped as well. I can only assume you chose the Destruction domain, since it's the only one with Harm and Implosion on it.

Points:

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Creativity:4
I didn't expect Duskblade, and I sure didn't expect Nar Demonbinder. Pious Templar gives Mettle, one of the few ways to do so, actually, and I was kind of expecting it. However, using it to qualify for Nar Demonbinder's requirement to cast Summon Monster is cute.

Power: 3
Where did you ever get the idea that you could swap spells out between spell lists and combine caster levels? If it has it's own spell list, it has it's own caster level. And even then, you're explicitly wrong because of this cute little part:

Nar demonbinders cast their demonbinder spells as sorcerers, and learn spells from the demonbinder spell list as shown below:

So your Nar Demonbinder caster level is 4. Your Pious Templar caster level is 2, your Divine Crusader caster level is 13 (due to Practiced Spellcaster). Your Duskblade caster level is 5. I will agree that Nar Demonbinder casting is a good place to sac spell slots to power your Arcane Strike feat. However, you can't use them to cast Harm and you can't stack caster levels.

Now then, the Destruction domain (which is the one I'm assuming you took due to the spells you said you got from it) has a LOT of good spells to combo with Arcane Channeling. Disintegrate, Harm, and various Inflict spells, and of course, as you noted, you can heal yourself with Harm and Inflict spells.

The whole demonbinding thing... well... either it's not very strong, or it takes a nose-dive into Known Cheese. For your benefit, I will assume the former, as the latter will net you a 1 on both Elegance and Creativity, and drop your UotSI score as well, since that's where most of your power comes from.

Elegance: 2
What did you expect? The combo you rely on... doesn't work. You had to jump through hoops just to barely qualify for Nar Demonbinder, then your only use for it is as Arcane Strike fodder. Fortunately for this score, you only have one base class, so you don't have any dipping penalties.

[b]Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
Didn't take it all the way, docked for that. Since the combo you said was great at leveraging DC doesn't work, you don't get anything else here.

TOTAL SCORE: 11.5

Honestly, where do you get the idea that PrC's with separate casting lists stack their CL's?

Build 11: Sortes

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I did a double take. Then I did a triple take. Then I rubbed my eyes. Then I hit Refresh. Nope... it was still there.

Mad props to you, sir, for going with Truenamer. Some of the tricks you use will dock you elegance (custom magic item, reliance on items to be functional), but my hat is off to you for making the attempt.

Points:

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Creativity: 5
You used Truenamer. Do I *REALLY* need to go any further? Actually, I should clarify that... you made Truenamer WORK. Now *THAT* is worth a 5 on Creativity.

Power: 3
You can re-write your spell list whenever you want to. Knowledge Devotion gives you passable damage output. However, you've got a problem with that... namely, all your Knowledge skills go cross-class whenever you switch out your domains. Temporarily gaining access to things like Miracle (through Luck domain) is definitely worth it, but if you try to combo Law Devotion with Knowledge Devotion, you'll probably lose more than you gain.

Elegance: 3.5
I hated doing this, really I did. But you've got some real mechanical problems to offset the elegance of having two classes, one of which being the base class.

First off, you are relying on magic items to hit your Truespeak checks. Yes, I know, you need to, but it's still a hit. Second, you're using a custom magic item. Again, I know, it's necessary to make Truenamers functions, but it's still a hit. Relying on Polycheese at later levels is another ding.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5
You finish it. You use it. You use every aspect of it. It certainly enhances what you can do. It isn't a 5 because you could've done the same thing with UrPriest. And probably done a better job of it.

TOTAL SCORE: 16

While you couldn't do everything you thought you could do, it was still a solid build.

So to recap the final scores:

Vald Lokkur: 18
Norrin Radd: 9 - Vote for Honorable Mention
Mighty Casey: 9
Glimwyn Mardwicket, The Shadow Gnome: 11.5
Mother Theressa: 9.5
Maken'srelli "Mad Maks": 10.5
Braham, the half-elf Messiah: 17.5
Lord of Misfortune: 16
Uruk, Guardian of Ulutiu: 9
Nefarious Tate: 11.5
Sortes: 16

In all... good job, people. No score under a 9. From me, that's actually a good thing.

Some things I saw which hurt people:

1) Casting classes with their own spell lists have their own caster level. No, they don't stack.

2) If you are going to use an obscure PrC from an obscure source, make sure you read the details first.

3) Read the spell before you assume it does what you think it does.

[Private-Prinny]

I will point out that Lord of Misfortune actually received a score of 16. It would be a shame to see someone lose a place due to an error in the spreadsheet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I will point out that Lord of Misfortune actually received a score of 16. It would be a shame to see someone lose a place due to an error in the spreadsheet.

Ahh, thank you. I was wondering how he ended up so low... I really liked that one.

[flabort]

I really like Vald, and I really like Sortes.
Is Honorable Mention just the one you liked the best? And is the vote for that limited to just judges or can anyone cast in a vote?

If yes and anyone, Can I cast 1/2 vote for each Vald + Sortes? I really can't decide.

Also, While it's obvious the judges need to know their stuff, and the competitors, does the host need to know his stuff besides where to find the secret ingredient and it's general theme and stuff?
'Cause if I don't need to know anything, or much, I may start a desert round soon, myself.
And by desert, I mean the SI is GitP-HB.

[term1nally s1ck]

Shneekey, I really suggest you check out Healing Hymn from Comp Divine, since it's the key part of Mother Teresa's trick and all, and the sole reason she has bard levels.
EDIT: And I'd assume that the focus on CLW is because that's the only healing spell she can cast with Reach Spell and still War-weaver it.

As for in-combat healing being suboptimal, that's because the average damage output of a creature out-strips the healing output of most builds. Mother Teresa kinda obliterates that with an average healing of 162.5 if only half her max targets need healing.

[Kefkafreak]

There are some really high marks :O and three characters with a 5.

In defense of Vald, Arctic Elf is not really a template, just a variant race from UA.

[DeAnno]

(Not the person who submitted Mother Teresa)

In combat Healing really gets a bad rap in the optimization crowd, but especially with high numbers like this, and leveraging Delay Death, it can be really effective. The model of frail alpha strikers with good saves supported by a durable healer is really good for ripping stuff apart.

[Piggy Knowles]

Shneekey, I really suggest you check out Healing Hymn from Comp Divine Complete Champion

Fixed. But yes, the Healing Hymn ACF does give a +1 sacred bonus per Perform rank to conj (healing) spells on top of the 1d8+CL that they normally heal.

The ability is worded a little bit oddly*, but it's pretty clear that the sacred/profane bonus to conj (healing) spells is separate from the normal 1d8+5 cap you'd otherwise have.

*For instance, the first bonus only says it works when allies cast a spell, but the second ability explicitly effects you AND allies - does that imply that a spell you cast isn't effected, despite the term allies generally including yourself? And does the bonus also work on, say, Lesser Restoration, or just on spells that heal HP damage?

[term1nally s1ck]

Huh. I woulda sworn a Divine ACF was from the Divine book. Oh well, my bad. It's actually CDiv in the Mother Teresa post as well, so I didn't go check.

[flabort]

I'm almost ready to launch the first Dessert Competition, just need to decide on the deadlines.
Private-Prinny, do you mind if I PM you what the OP will look like, so you can tell me anything I need to "fix", such as wordings? Or suggestions on where to use more/less copy/pasta?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneekey, I really suggest you check out Healing Hymn from Comp Divine, since it's the key part of Mother Teresa's trick and all, and the sole reason she has bard levels.
EDIT: And I'd assume that the focus on CLW is because that's the only healing spell she can cast with Reach Spell and still War-weaver it.

As for in-combat healing being suboptimal, that's because the average damage output of a creature out-strips the healing output of most builds. Mother Teresa kinda obliterates that with an average healing of 162.5 if only half her max targets need healing.

However:

1) Her creator should have mentioned this explicitly. It was not stated anywhere in her (very brief) submission

2) War Weaver *STILL* may only affect a number of targets equal to her charisma modifier, which was omitted

3) Mass Cure Light Wounds, and Mass Heal *STILL* obviates the War Weaver dip

4) Even healing 30 damage is *STILL* not effective when opponents are dishing out 100+/round or applying status effects.

I have edited my judging to reflect this, but the points remain where they are. In-combat healing doesn't work very well, and the only trick she mentions, Reach CLW through War Weaver, doesn't even do that particularly well.

[term1nally s1ck]

However:

1) Her creator should have mentioned this explicitly. It was not stated anywhere in her (very brief) submission

2) War Weaver *STILL* may only affect a number of targets equal to her charisma modifier, which was omitted

Agreed, the submission wasn't explicit enough, since apparently figuring out the way a build works in order to judge it correctly isn't necessary.

3) Mass Cure Light Wounds, and Mass Heal *STILL* obviates the War Weaver dip

5th level spell vs 2nd. The CLW castings can take up *MUCH* less effective spell slots, and hit the same number of targets, since her max CL is 11.

4) Even healing 30 damage is *STILL* not effective when opponents are dishing out 100+/round or applying status effects.

Except she can keep up that level of healing for a very. very. long time, and has the upper spell slots free to deal with status effects via Heal.

And, in fairness, you're giving 3s and 4s in power to classes that do less or similar damage to what she can heal.

EDIT: Oh, and the *only* class that is giving her Mass Heal as well as significant numbers of Cha-based spell slots to use on her bread and butter is Divine Crusader, or potentially Ur-Priest, whose fluff is *completely* abhorrent to the concept.

[NoldorForce]

My choice was for the Summoner domain and a White Raven Crusader base, but I ran out of time before heading off on vacation. Them's the breaks, I suppose.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

5th level spell vs 2nd. The CLW castings can take up *MUCH* less effective spell slots, and hit the same number of targets, since her max CL is 11.

Still has a MUCH more limited number of targets than her builder posted. And STILL has very limited number of spell slots. Please go back and re-read Heroes of Battle, page 112.

When you weave
an eldritch tapestry, you can connect a number of allies
equal to your bonus in your arcane spellcasting ability
score (Intelligence for wizards, Charisma for sorcerers and
bards).

How does caster level have any say in this?

Except she can keep up that level of healing for a very. very. long time, and has the upper spell slots free to deal with status effects via Heal.

As for 'lots of spell slots', et's look at this, shall we?

Bard9 (since War Weaver eats a casting level) can cast 3 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd. If she's planning on buffing anyone up, this severely eats into this. If she's going to Inspirational Boost for IC bumping, she can't be playing her healing hymn. So that's a direct contradiction, unless she plans on 'twisting'. She doesn't really have Melodic Casting, so she'll need a Harmonizing weapon. And if she's planning on boosting everyone with Heroism, that's more spell slots she doesn't have.

A Divine Crusader, at cap, has 3 of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (because 5th+ should be Mass CLW or actually useful spells). Which would mean deliberately not using your 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level domain spells. But that's a total of nine of them per day.

Not so much, really.

And, in fairness, you're giving 3s and 4s in power to classes that do less or similar damage to what she can heal.

In fairness, it's because of their ability to debuff, nerf, battlefield control, and otherwise make opponents unable to do anything useful, not because of damage output. You may note that the two charger builds never scored higher than a 3, and they both have *FAR* more damage output than you can heal with CLW.

EDIT: Oh, and the *only* class that is giving her Mass Heal as well as significant numbers of Cha-based spell slots to use on her bread and butter is Divine Crusader, or potentially Ur-Priest, whose fluff is *completely* abhorrent to the concept.

Which isn't even mentioned, and the implication is that she's actually using those slots for CLW's...

Particularly in a high-end game, you need to be able to deal with status effects and Save or Lose conditions in order to be a decent healer. And 30 damage is pathetic. In fact, I believe that was precisely the word I used to describe someone else's damage output which was around this level.

Ahh, here it is... Read up Mad Max's Power entry. He ended up with a 1.5 Power score because... his damage output was around what you can heal (more, if he can actually find a way to hit the broad side of a barn), and yea, I called his damage output 'sub-par to pathetic'.

I am, at least, being consistent in my judging.

[Vandicus]

Forgive me if I'm wrong Shneeky, your judging knocks off points for two builds for being from a 3.0 source, but wasn't Chaotician brought into 3.5 by the Planar handbook on page 61?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Forgive me if I'm wrong Shneeky, your judging knocks off points for two builds for being from a 3.0 source, but wasn't Chaotician brought into 3.5 by the Planar handbook on page 61?

It's still a very obscure source, and wasn't Planar Handbook 3.0 still?

[Vandicus]

No planar handbook is 3.5. The book is listed in the 3.5 errata and identifies itself as 3.5

*EDIT
Manual of the Planes was the 3.0 source I believe.

[term1nally s1ck]

Mass CLW is 1 target per caster level. The highest CL is 11 at Div Crusader 10. Not unlimited.

Full casters get 2 more spell slots per level. Div Crusader gets 3.

Plus, you now get double the bonus spells for low levels from Cha.

And comparing someone who heals 10 people for ~30 almost at-will, and has access to Heal and Mass Heal, to a person who can hurt 1 person for 30....do I really need to explain why that is just silly?

And yeah. 3.0 power for a charger who can do what, a hundred damage? two hundred?

The healer with access to Mass Heal, and healing for up to 300 damage over 10 targets with a 2nd level spell gets 1.5


Oh, and yes, the high level spells were mentioned.

"her choice of Domain (Healing) sets her up to take 9th level healing spells and still be able to heal everyone with a LOT of spell slots."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No planar handbook is 3.5. The book is listed in the 3.5 errata and identifies itself as 3.5

*EDIT
Manual of the Planes was the 3.0 source I believe.

Ahh, you are correct. I was thinking that it was one of the '3.25' books, contemporary with BoED/BoVD/Fiend Folio and others.

However, the Planar Handbook is still an exceptionally obscure source. I had to go out to my storage locker to find my copy. If it's so obscure that I have to go to my storage locker to get the book, it's worth a half-point dock.

The build which actually used it got a boost in Creativity for it. The Shadowcraft Gnome clone would have, had he not been a defining case of 'flat 1' for creativity for using a known CharOp build.

[Vandicus]

However, the Planar Handbook is still an exceptionally obscure source. I had to go out to my storage locker to find my copy. If it's so obscure that I have to go to my storage locker to get the book, it's worth a half-point dock.

It is pretty obscure. I borrow it when I use it myself. Had to check online to even see whether it was truly a 3.5 book.

*EDIT

As a side note, that was a great movie. I like characters who capture that moment of Patton shooting at a fighter plane with his pistol.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mass CLW is 1 target per caster level. The highest CL is 11 at Div Crusader 10. Not unlimited.

Full casters get 2 more spell slots per level. Div Crusader gets 3.

Plus, you now get double the bonus spells for low levels from Cha.

And comparing someone who heals 10 people for ~30 almost at-will, and has access to Heal and Mass Heal, to a person who can hurt 1 person for 30....do I really need to explain why that is just silly?

Couple hundred, actually, if he could land a blow.

And yeah. 3.0 power for a charger who can do what, a hundred damage? two hundred?

The healer with access to Mass Heal, and healing for up to 300 damage over 10 targets with a 2nd level spell gets 1.5

Per hit. With Pounce and Shock Trooper. In other words, you were dishing out 30's, they were dishing out 100's....

Oh, and yes, the high level spells were mentioned.

"her choice of Domain (Healing) sets her up to take 9th level healing spells and still be able to heal everyone with a LOT of spell slots."

Your problem, sir, is that you are adding up all the damage spread out over a group of people, rather than concentrated. You can keep a group of level 5 people up all day long. Level 20 people, however, have more than 30 hps, and are generally taking more than 30 damage per character per round. Plus have status effects, negative levels, and other unpleasant things being thrown at them.

Sure, you can keep a low-level mob going. I'll even grant that I forgot to calculate in bonus spells from your Charisma, although you still have limited number of spells if you plan on using any spell other than Reach CLW in your bard spell slots.

But you don't keep up with the ball curve. When opponents are dealing 100+ damage per target, you're healing 30 per target. That's not keeping up with the Jonses.

In brief, a Healer, a Tier 5 class, can heal better than you can, with more flexible options. That's... a pretty low bar you slid under.

A class with Turn Undead and the feat DMM Chain Spell would have been far more powerful than War Weaver, because at least then you could've chained something other than CLW.

[term1nally s1ck]

No, the healer *really* can't. It can do slightly less with much higher spell slots. I have literally dozens of spells more to heal on that level with.

EDIT: And again, DMM chain spell on heals will finish up with less spell slots, less healing from the spell slots, and is a DMM Cleric.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, the healer *really* can't. It can do slightly less with much higher spell slots. I have literally dozens of spells more to heal on that level with.

Ahem...

You have HALF the spells a Healer has, actually. Go open up the miniatures Handbook again. They end up with 6's up to 6th level, then 5 7th and 8th and 4 9th. So they actually end up having a lot MORE than twice on the important spells.

A one-level dip in anything with Turn Undead nets a Healer the ability to DMM Chain, using the same reach trick you do, and duplicate your effect with ANY spell they can cast. And while the casting list for a Healer is notoriously sub-par, it happens to include all the spells you are bragging about.

Then they have a Unicorn as a pet, which has his own supply of healing to dish out.

I stand by my assessment. If Healer is a mechanically stronger option than your build, you deserve a 1.5 in power. But don't worry, you aren't the only one.

The ability to heal 10 targets of 30 damage is FAR inferior to healing one target 300 damage.

And having TWICE your Caster Level, he gets a lot more use out of his Heal spells. And can Chain Heal and hit multiple targets for 150 damage AND remove all status effects as a 6th level spell.

[term1nally s1ck]

IF I was going to make builds to do something like that, dipping cleric to get DMM, I'd not be competing in this.

And the Healer cannot do *anything* like the above at that spell level. Their Cure serious wounds is comparable in amount healed (with a DMM dip, which is *incredibly* cheesy), at 4th level spells.

A Healer can probably have that combination at level 10, when Teresa is fully online. It would be able to heal an average of 23.5 using 3rd level slots, or an average of 14.5 using 5th levels without chain spell. It can probably do that maybe 5-6 times before running out of TU.

Teresa can heal for 22.5 across 5 targets using (not assuming any items) 7 spell slots.

So, it's ability to heal is comparable to a Healer with a DMM cleric dip. Yeah, I don't really see the power level being equivalent to a tier 5 class there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

IF I was going to make builds to do something like that, dipping cleric to get DMM, I'd not be competing in this.

Umm... read the thread title...

Iron Chef OPTIMIZATION challenge. The optimizer's challenge is to balance Power with Elegance. You avoided known cheese. But you also avoided doing anything useful.

And the Healer cannot do *anything* like the above at that spell level. Their Cure serious wounds is comparable in amount healed (with a DMM dip, which is *incredibly* cheesy), at 4th level spells.

A Healer can probably have that combination at level 10, when Teresa is fully online. It would be able to heal an average of 23.5 using 3rd level slots, or an average of 14.5 using 5th levels without chain spell. It can probably do that maybe 5-6 times before running out of TU.

Teresa can heal for 22.5 across 5 targets using (not assuming any items) 7 spell slots.

So, it's ability to heal is comparable to a Healer with a DMM cleric dip. Yeah, I don't really see the power level being equivalent to a tier 5 class there.

And at 12th level, a Healer is healing 120 damage to multiple targets, and negating status effects at the same time. Your point?

Doesn't have to be a cleric dip either, just anything with Turn Undead.

And 'cheesy' is a hit in Elegance, not in Power. We're discussing power, not Elegance.

Let me explain something:

You have access to 9th level domain spells, and you choose to heal ~30 damage per target. While other characters are getting access to Miracle, Mind Blank, Implosion, and other, actually useful abilities... you are healing ~30 damage per target.

[Vandicus]

So, it's ability to heal is comparable to a Healer with a DMM cleric dip. Yeah, I don't really see the power level being equivalent to a tier 5 class there.

Think about what you just said for a few seconds. The healing power level is equivalent to that of a DMM cleric. Yet besides mass heal(which is still undoubtedly weaker than miracle, but that has an xp cost for raising one's allies) healing is generally not all that effective in combat, even for a DMM cleric. Heck in my games I make them all ranged automatically just because healing is so bad in combat.

[Private-Prinny]

I have no problem with facts. Whether a book is 3.0 or 3.5, or whether Karrnath is a location instead of a deity (read Five Nations a bit closer, it's a city), they are small things that can be pointed out if a judge gets confused.

What I do have a problem with is this. When a judge is kind enough to provide an incredibly swift, detailed, and fair judging, they shouldn't have to spend half a page defending himself. This is exactly the type of situation I was trying to avoid by taking out the disputes. The entries need to stand on what was presented, not what was presented + half a page of expository arguing.

If this argument about Mother Teresa continues any farther, I can and will pull her out of this competition.