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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    In short, my attempt at a tier 3 melee class that doesn't use manoeuvres. Still very much a work in progress.

    The Battle Scion


    Fluff on the way when I feel like it.

    Alignment: Any (Also, I support the Color Wheel!).

    Hit Die: d12.

    Class Features

    Class Skills:

    The Battle Scions class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Int), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

    Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Table: Battle Scion
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Battle Arts, Valor Pool

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Heart of Steel

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Battle Art

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Battle Art

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Battle Art

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Bonus Feat

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Battle Art

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Salient Warrior

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Battle Art

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Bonus Feat

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Battle Art

    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Battle Proficiency

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Battle Art

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Bonus Feat

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Battle Art

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Lord of War

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Battle Art

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |Bonus Feat, Warrior Rampant

    [/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Battle Scions are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (including tower shields).

    Battle Arts (Ex): As a Battle Scion immerses herself more fully in the clangor of battle, she begins to develop techniques and abilities to augment her battle prowess. At 1st level, a Battle Scion gains two battle arts. She gains an additional Battle Art for every 2 levels of Battle Scion attained after 1st level. A Battle Scion cannot select a Battle Art more than once.

    Valor Pool (Ex): At 1st level, the Battle Scion gains a pool of Valor points that she can spend to accomplish astounding feats. The number of points in a Battle Scion's Valor pool is equal to 2 times her Battle Scion level plus her Charisma modifier. At the beginning of her turn, a Battle Scion regains a number of points equal to her class level, up to her maximum available number of points.

    By spending 1 valor point, a Battle Scion can add either a +1 bonus to an attack roll, a +2 bonus to a damage roll,or a +5 bonus to her speed until the end of the round.

    At 4th level, a Battle Scion can spend 4 valor points to gain an extra move action for 1 round. You cannot use this ability more than once in a round.

    At 8th level, a Battle Scion can spend 8 valor points to gain an extra standard action for 1 round. You cannot use this ability more than once in a round.

    Heart of Steel (Ex): At 2nd level, a Battle Scion gains a bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) on all saving throws.

    Bonus Feats (Ex): At level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter, a Battle Scion gains a bonus feat, which may be any feat which she meets the prerequisites.

    Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken (Ex): At 6th level, the Battle Scion gains the ability to ignore even magical and unusual attacks through sheer strength of will. If she makes a successful save against an attack that would normally deal half damage or produce a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead negate the effect entirely. You do not gain the benefit of this ability while unconscious.

    Salient Warrior (Ex): At 10th level, a Battle Scion can add their Charisma modifier to their armor class until the end of their next turn after either moving at least 10 feet, or being hit more than twice in a round.

    Battle Proficiency (Ex): At 14th level, at the beginning of the day a Battle Scion may choose any one Battle Art she is trained in and swap it for another Battle Art of equal level. At the end of the day she regains her original Battle Art, which may be swapped out as normal.

    Lord of War (Ex): At 18th level, whenever a Battle Scion successfully hits an enemy with an attack, they may spend 4 valor points to make another attack at the same BAB. This ability may only be used once per succesful attack.

    Warrior Rampant (Ex): At 20th level, the Battle Scion becomes an avatar of war, one of the greatest warriors in the world. She automatically succeeds on all critical confirmation checks, and gains a permanent + 4 bonus to any physical ability score of her choice. Any abilities that require Valor points to activate have their price reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1.


    Battle Arts


    • Battle Athlete (Ex): While wearing light or no armor, you gain a +2 bonus to your armor class. This bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels after that. If you wear no armor, you also gain 10% concealment at level 4, which increases by 5% every 4 levels after that.
    • Brutish Power (Ex): Your immense strength allows you to shrug off most attacks. You may add your Strength modifier to your hit points gained every level, rather than your Constitution modifier.
    • Elegant Warrior (Ex): You may use your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to hit and damage in place of Strength.
    • Martial Artist (Ex): You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and monk unarmed strike damage as a monk of your class level. You add any Monk levels and Unarmed Swordsage levels you have to determine your effective monk level.
    • Martial Artist, Greater (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes for every four Battle Scion levels you have. In addition, your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for overcoming DR. You must have the Battle Art, 'Martial Artist' to choose this Battle Art.
    • Overbearing Power (Ex): You may add your Strength bonus to your Armor Class in place of your Dexterity bonus.
    • Piercing Striker (Ex): For every point of BAB you have, you ignore 1 point of DR or Hardness when striking enemies or objects.
    • Precise Blows (Ex): The Battle Scion gains the Improved Called Shot feat. At 6th level, she gains the Great Called Shot feat.
    • Reach for the Skies (Ex): The Battle Scion may leap into the air a distance equal to her ground speed as a move action. She does not begin to fall until the end of her next turn (unless she chooses to), and takes no falling damage. You must have at least 6 levels of Battle Scion to choose this Battle Art.
    • Shape the Battlefield (Ex): The area for 5 feet around you counts as difficult terrain for all enemies until the beginning of your next turn. This area increases by 5 feet at 5th level, and again every 5 levels thereafter. This ability costs 2 Valor points.
    • Skin of Steel (Ex): You gain DR 5/-. This DR increases by 5 at level 5, and again every 5 levels thereafter, up to a maximum of 25 at level 20. This DR stacks with all other forms of DR.
    • Sliding Strike (Ex): When you successfully hit an opponent, you may spend a Valor point to move them 5 feet in any direction. For every extra Valor point burned, the opponent moves another 5 feet.
    • Speed Demon (Ex): When spending Valor points to increase your speed, you gain a +10 bonus for each point spent, rather than +5.
    • Spurting Wound (Ex): You may activate this ability when you successfully hit an enemy with an attack. The enemy takes 1d6 points of bleed damage (this damage does not stack with itself). This bleed damage increases by 1d6 at 9th level, and again every 3 levels thereafter. This ability costs 6 Valor points. You must have at least 6 levels of Battle Scion to choose this Battle Art.
    • Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the Warblade class ability. At 6th level, you gain Improved Uncanny Dodge, as the Warblade class feature.
    • Will Travel (Ex): The Battle Scion may move up to his full land speed as a Swift or Immediate action. This ability costs 10 Valor points. You must have at least 16 levels of Battle Scion to take this Battle Art.



    More on the way, once I figure out what to use as abilities.

    Here is what I have so far. I'm still looking for abilities that would make good Battle Arts, and I'm totally open to suggestions. I would also like input on how to improve the capstone; right now I think it's rather lackluster.
    Last edited by Curious; 2011-11-10 at 12:29 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    This does look interesting. Lets see... I think salient warrior is specific enough that it doesn't need the spending of valor points. I mean look at skirmish.
    The capstone is kind of boring, but is still pretty powerful. Unfortunately I don't really have any specific ideas coming to mind.
    Maybe grant a choice of abilities at level 20, so that it can fill a large spectrum of builds? Or maybe some sort of general boost that you can take for a single battle art to turn it into a signature move.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    This does look interesting. Lets see... I think salient warrior is specific enough that it doesn't need the spending of valor points. I mean look at skirmish.
    The capstone is kind of boring, but is still pretty powerful. Unfortunately I don't really have any specific ideas coming to mind.
    Maybe grant a choice of abilities at level 20, so that it can fill a large spectrum of builds? Or maybe some sort of general boost that you can take for a single battle art to turn it into a signature move.
    Hm, point taken for Salient Warrior. Valor points cost removed.

    A list of abilities does seem in line with the general design focus of the class, ie, modularity. I'll see what I can come up with.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Great start, I like it so far, anything to give melee more to do than Power Attack. May I ask why choose Charisma? For this, I would actually choose Intelligence (ala Roy Greenhilt and fighters like him) to base abilities off.

    Looking forward to seeing more arts!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Great start, I like it so far, anything to give melee more to do than Power Attack. May I ask why choose Charisma? For this, I would actually choose Intelligence (ala Roy Greenhilt and fighters like him) to base abilities off.

    Looking forward to seeing more arts!

    -X
    Thank you! I'm glad you like it.

    I'm drawing more on character archetypes that use sheer force of will to defeat their opponents, like say, Kamina, rather than the cunning types like Roy. It's a matter of preference really.
    Last edited by Curious; 2011-08-18 at 10:57 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Alright, a few more Battle Arts added now. Here's a list of what I'm thinking for the immediate future:
    Arts that allow status effects, bleed damage, elemental damage, lots of DR, multiplying damage, etc.
    Reworking the capstone to allow for more variety.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    The thing that caught my eye is that Lord of War, on a successful hit, lets you pretty much spend your valor pool for a massive storm of attacks.

    Example: assuming the character has done the various tricks to get +yes to hit on their first attack by level 18, that means that they get (assuming 14 charisma) 36+2 = 38 valor points in their pool. that's nine extra attacks in their attack sequence, and they regain four of those attacks every round as they regenerate 18. At level 20, that becomes ten attacks, and five extras per round. In conjunction with their ability to just about always full attack (move full speed as swift or immediate action instead of move action), that means very little is going to survive being hit by this guy.

    IMO, Uncanny Dodge would be a nice addition to the class... But then, I'm just generally fond of Uncanny Dodge.

    For Battle Arts: ^^^ is an idea. Perhaps make some that allow you to use different ability modifiers for attack/damage/AC (great for reducing MAD, which this class has ). For example, Con to all three, which would make the class only dependent on two stats (Con and whatever you decide for Valor pool... And since that scales with level, it almost makes the class SAD.).
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by byaku rai View Post
    The thing that caught my eye is that Lord of War, on a successful hit, lets you pretty much spend your valor pool for a massive storm of attacks.

    Example: assuming the character has done the various tricks to get +yes to hit on their first attack by level 18, that means that they get (assuming 14 charisma) 36+2 = 38 valor points in their pool. that's nine extra attacks in their attack sequence, and they regain four of those attacks every round as they regenerate 18. At level 20, that becomes ten attacks, and five extras per round. In conjunction with their ability to just about always full attack (move full speed as swift or immediate action instead of move action), that means very little is going to survive being hit by this guy.

    IMO, Uncanny Dodge would be a nice addition to the class... But then, I'm just generally fond of Uncanny Dodge.

    For Battle Arts: ^^^ is an idea. Perhaps make some that allow you to use different ability modifiers for attack/damage/AC (great for reducing MAD, which this class has ). For example, Con to all three, which would make the class only dependent on two stats (Con and whatever you decide for Valor pool... And since that scales with level, it almost makes the class SAD.).
    Oh, thanks for spotting that. I meant for Lord of War to be kind of a once a round thing. I'll change that right quick.

    Alright, you've convinced me; UD is now going to be a Battle Art. I'm also thinking of doing something like you said, allowing other stats to be used for gaining HP and to hit and such. I'll get right on it. Thanks for your thoughts, it really helps!

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    I'm with Errant on this. Why isn't it any of the mental ability scores? Because the inspirational leader type should use his charisma, yes, but the wise or perceptive martial artist should use wisdom and the cunning warrior should use intelligence.

    Also, what about these battle arts?

    Martial Artist
    You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and monk unarmed strike damage as a monk of your class level. You add any Monk levels and Unarmed Swordsage levels you have to determine your effective monk level.

    Martial Artist, Greater
    You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes for every four Battle Scion levels you have. In addition, your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for overcoming DR.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    I'm with Errant on this. Why isn't it any of the mental ability scores? Because the inspirational leader type should use his charisma, yes, but the wise or perceptive martial artist should use wisdom and the cunning warrior should use intelligence.

    Also, what about these battle arts?

    Martial Artist
    You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and monk unarmed strike damage as a monk of your class level. You add any Monk levels and Unarmed Swordsage levels you have to determine your effective monk level.

    Martial Artist, Greater
    You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes for every four Battle Scion levels you have. In addition, your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for overcoming DR.
    Well, as I said, I tend to view Charisma more as sheer force of personality than just the ability to affect other people. Also, there are already martial classes that key off of Wisdom and Intelligence (Warblade, etc.), so I wanted to go with something a little different.

    Battle Arts looks fine, but I think Greater Martial Artist could do with a bit of a buff. Hm, I'll think on it. Anyways, thanks for your contribution! I'll add these up right now.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Add to Greater Martial Artist "you must have Martial Artist and at least 4 levels of Battle Scion to choose this Battle Art".

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Alright, new Battle Arts up!

    Okay, so basically I'm just going to blatantly troll for ideas here; what kinds of abilities should a solid tier 3 melee character have? Should I just read through ToB and grab ideas from maneuvers, make up stuff wholesale, or what? I think there was even a thread on things a Fighter type should have, and I'd appreciate a link to it, if you have it.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    I am not sure this is a Tier 3. Maybe 2.

    My only real concern is that with two Battle Arts (martial artist and greater) you now have made monk almost completely useless.

    The Battle Scion has a d12 hit die, great saves, better base attack bonus (which is enhanced further by other Battle arts), and can make up for the monk acrobatics, jumps and speed buffs with other battle arts.

    There is very little this character cannot outdo a monk, or barbarian at. Just a matter of the right battle arts.

    I think it can take on the pathfinder fighter as well, being dwarfed only by casters.

    It will dominate the battlefield next to fighters and paladins until the average group level is high enough for the casters to take over.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    This looks amazing. A little too amazing to be honest, even for a tier 3 (or 2).

    The one thing that leaped to my mind while looking at it is saves. It gives good saves in all three, adds your cha bonus on top of that and if you pass a save you take no side/lessened effect. That seems OP to me. Perhaps spend those points of yours to activate Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken?

    Also it seems you regenerate those points very quickly. You get one per level plus cha bonus and get back one per BAB per round. This seems a little too awesome, maybe make it half BAB or even a dice roll like 1d4 for every 5 BAB?

    EDIT: Maybe turn some of those abilities you have into supernatural instead of extraordinary too, like Will travel, Shape the battlefield, Speed Demon, etc
    Last edited by Kane0; 2011-11-09 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Feels as though the class has too many Valor Points. The class gets a lot of Valor points, but not very much to spend them on.

    So either more abilities (Battle Arts) to spend Valor Points on, or reduce the amount of Valor Points. Possible reduce the speed with which they regenerate anyway to 1/2 Battle Scion level.

    Just some quick pointers.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
    I am not sure this is a Tier 3. Maybe 2.

    My only real concern is that with two Battle Arts (martial artist and greater) you now have made monk almost completely useless.

    The Battle Scion has a d12 hit die, great saves, better base attack bonus (which is enhanced further by other Battle arts), and can make up for the monk acrobatics, jumps and speed buffs with other battle arts.

    There is very little this character cannot outdo a monk, or barbarian at. Just a matter of the right battle arts.

    I think it can take on the pathfinder fighter as well, being dwarfed only by casters.

    It will dominate the battlefield next to fighters and paladins until the average group level is high enough for the casters to take over.
    You ever heard of the tier system or Tome of Battle? The higher the number of the tier, the worse a class is. Fighter is tier 5, barbarian is tier 4, monk is tier 5 according to JaronK, but tier 6 according to the majority. Tome of Battle classes, on the other hand, are tier 3. This class is made to be tier 3.

    This is made to be one of the answers to "casters dominate high level play, mid level play, and while we're at it, let's throw in Grease and Sleep so they dominate low level play".
    Last edited by Jade Dragon; 2011-11-09 at 09:17 PM.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Wow, and I thought this was dead. Alright, here are a few quick responses.

    Feels as though the class has too many Valor Points. The class gets a lot of Valor points, but not very much to spend them on.

    So either more abilities (Battle Arts) to spend Valor Points on, or reduce the amount of Valor Points. Possible reduce the speed with which they regenerate anyway to 1/2 Battle Scion level.
    I realize that there are not many options available, and that would be because I never quite finished the class. I think I will maintain the current regen rate, as most Battle Arts assume a large number of Valor points are available every turn.

    The one thing that leaped to my mind while looking at it is saves. It gives good saves in all three, adds your cha bonus on top of that and if you pass a save you take no side/lessened effect. That seems OP to me. Perhaps spend those points of yours to activate Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken?

    Also it seems you regenerate those points very quickly. You get one per level plus cha bonus and get back one per BAB per round. This seems a little too awesome, maybe make it half BAB or even a dice roll like 1d4 for every 5 BAB?

    EDIT: Maybe turn some of those abilities you have into supernatural instead of extraordinary too, like Will travel, Shape the battlefield, Speed Demon, etc
    The saves are intentionally high to protect against the numerous Save-or-Suck and Save-or-Die abilities available to spell casters, initiators, and monsters.

    See my above point on regen rate.

    The whole point of this class is that the character is just that good, and doesn't rely on magic to gain their powers. Thus, all abilities are Ex.
    Prestige Bard, updated for Pathfinder.

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    I have an alternative name for this class
    (based on Reach for the Skies, Shape the Battlefield, Skin of Steel, Sliding Strike, Speed Demon, Will Travel and Lord of War)
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    Chuck Norris

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I have an alternative name for this class
    (based on Reach for the Skies, Shape the Battlefield, Skin of Steel, Sliding Strike, Speed Demon, Will Travel and Lord of War)
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    Chuck Norris
    Guuuuuh.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    I like it, this is a solid effort. I'm going to echo my general complaint about fighters, though: it needs some out-of-combat stuff to do.
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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    I like it, this is a solid effort. I'm going to echo my general complaint about fighters, though: it needs some out-of-combat stuff to do.
    Thanks. I've been trying to think of how to include utility abilities, and my first idea was to allow the Scion to gain a new ability every four levels or so that was solely meant for out-of-combat use, so as to avoid infringing on the Battle Arts. However, I'm still not certain what abilities they should have. Any ideas?
    Prestige Bard, updated for Pathfinder.

    Revamped Spell Resistance system, for use with Spell Points/Psionics.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jade Dragon's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Thanks. I've been trying to think of how to include utility abilities, and my first idea was to allow the Scion to gain a new ability every four levels or so that was solely meant for out-of-combat use, so as to avoid infringing on the Battle Arts. However, I'm still not certain what abilities they should have. Any ideas?
    I know you wanted to avoid more Battle Arts, but if you don't like them as Battle Arts, you can just change them to class features.

    Speedy Craftsman: By spending 4 valor points, a Battle Scion can change the 8 hours of work needed to make a single craft check to 1 hour.

    Designer's note
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    Based on the super fast fortress building the Romans can do in The Son of Neptune.


    Legendary Smith: You can imbue an item with magical power. When you make a craft check to craft a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you can spend 4 valor points to be treated as having the Craft Arms and Armor feat. You can spend more valor points to be treated as having a spell for the purposes of crafting prerequisites, for any number of spells you wish. The number of valor points you spend per spell is equal to the spell's level. You must have at least 8 levels of battle scion to select this battle art.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.P] The Battle Scion (PEACH, WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    You ever heard of the tier system or Tome of Battle? The higher the number of the tier, the worse a class is. Fighter is tier 5, barbarian is tier 4, monk is tier 5 according to JaronK, but tier 6 according to the majority. Tome of Battle classes, on the other hand, are tier 3. This class is made to be tier 3.

    This is made to be one of the answers to "casters dominate high level play, mid level play, and while we're at it, let's throw in Grease and Sleep so they dominate low level play".
    If you look at my post I actually say it seems Tier 2 (as in, more powerful than tier 3). I only meant that this class is not Tier 3; Tier 3 doesn't automatically obliterate every other melee class, regardless of build. Tier 2 and tier 1 are not reserved for only casters (even if it usually feels that way). A noncasting class that can stand next to any caster whatsoever, regardless of what they cast, is more than a Tier 3.

    Obviously you feel casters are broken. That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. (In the hands of a skilled player they are generally the most powerful, imho)

    Making a melee that can go toe to toe with every other melee and beat all of them at what they are supposed to do best is not the equivalent of making a higher tier class, at least in my opinion. I thought the tier system was very subjective, and at some level required anyone using it to impose the class through various scenarios to make a judgement of where it belongs.

    This class feels like a Tier 2, because it doesn't matter who holds the character sheet, nor what choices they made. This class will play itself; give it a basic weapon and any rp newbie should be able to stand up to most things unafraid. I don't know about you, but regardless of what tier my class is in (and I generally favor wizard) there is no moment where I feel 100% unafraid. I dread going to sleep until I am high enough level to summon my own place, and even then I usually have a ring of sustenance so I can be alert to any dangers.

    I don't see this class feeling the need for much beyond maybe endurance and a chained weapon so he can't be disarmed. Assuming he isn't unarmed.

    A few noncombat abilities truly are necessary, and they should probably use Valor Points if you refuse to change the amount of valor points or their regeneration. Valor is something we all use when we do things we normally don't cope with. Combat is the most common example, but not the only one. Perhaps a bonus to diplomacy or intimidate (although intimidate is already heading back to combat).

    Extraordinary abilities that are supposed to be Spell like or Supernatural should stay so, otherwise you have truly powerful abilities that do not interact correctly, such as a Battle Scion in full power wailing at a caster who has an antimagic field up, unable to do anything at all. If that is an arcane caster, you have a guy in some flannels getting raped by a dude who looks like he stepped out of an anime in full battle regalia, 5 feet taller than everyone else.
    Last edited by motionmatrix; 2011-11-14 at 01:30 PM.

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