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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy_Knight View Post

    ...I really don't know why you're equating these two things when they're clearly not the same. Saying "we can't physically move the sapphire because it might break the seal on the rift" is not contradicted by "a magical ritual can allow us to move the rift around", whether or not the first statement is actually true.
    Because...the statement "The Gate cannot be moved" is wrong? It can be moved. Either by the ritual or of course just moving it and taking the risk. Just because something is improbable and dangerous does not make it impossible or undoable.

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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    Because...the statement "The Gate cannot be moved" is wrong? It can be moved. Either by the ritual or of course just moving it and taking the risk. Just because something is improbable and dangerous does not make it impossible or undoable.
    How and why is it wrong? Besides the ritual, which Soon obviously does not know about, and wouldn't be able to do if he did know.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Because no one actually states that the Gates -cannot- be moved. Just that they shouldn't be moved because of the risk involved. Sure, big risk and a good enough reason not to move the gates. But still, the Gates -can- be moved, either by the Ritual or just moving them manually and accepting you might let loose a god killing abomination.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    So you think Soon risked the undoing of the entire universe when he had to tell the new guy he was going to be in charge from now?
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    I did not state that what so ever. I stated that the assumption it cannot be -the- Sapphire based on the fact the Sapphire couldn't be moved is false since it isn't the case and shouldn't be used as an argument for how it cannot be the Sapphire because it is false.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    BS. The gate cannot be moved without high risk of leting the Snarl loose. Therefore, it is very unlikely that the thing Soon is holding is -the- sapphire.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    You still haven't answered why the Sapphire...you know, the thing the gate is bound to, isn't in the chair we know it's supposed to be in. You can call B.S all you want but it not being the Sapphire is much more unlikely. Where's the Sapphire go then if it's not on the chair? You know, the chair, the throne room, the whole dang castle is built around? You'd think that'd be an important piece to be missing.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Why can't it be the sapphire, but before it turned into the Gate? I still think the scene takes place before the Order of the Scribble disbanded, and Soon was telling Lord Ronjo what was going to happen. (Two foreigners are going to seal the rift indefinitely using that sapphire.)
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    Because...the statement "The Gate cannot be moved" is wrong? It can be moved. Either by the ritual or of course just moving it and taking the risk. Just because something is improbable and dangerous does not make it impossible or undoable.
    You're mssing the point. The statement is not "the gate can't be moved", it's "the gate can't be moved physically without risking its opening". It is irrelevant to what Hinjo said whether there exists a magical ritual that could move the rift.

    Further to that point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    I stated that the assumption it cannot be -the- Sapphire based on the fact the Sapphire couldn't be moved is false since it isn't the case and shouldn't be used as an argument for how it cannot be the Sapphire because it is false.
    Again, simply "could it have been moved?" was never the issue. The argument is: "If it was too dangerous to risk moving the sapphire, then it doesn't make sense to assume that Soon did exactly that". When people have said the sapphire "couldn't be moved", they meant without risking the opening of the gate, not that it literally couldn't be moved. We already know that it could, because Hinjo's reason why moving it won't work is that it's too risky, not that it's literally impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    You still haven't answered why the Sapphire...you know, the thing the gate is bound to, isn't in the chair we know it's supposed to be in. You can call B.S all you want but it not being the Sapphire is much more unlikely. Where's the Sapphire go then if it's not on the chair? You know, the chair, the throne room, the whole dang castle is built around? You'd think that'd be an important piece to be missing.
    Right--that observation was my whole reason for starting the thread in the first place. Given that it seems as if the sapphire is not there, and that Soon may be giving it to Ronjo, it casts doubt on the idea that it was too risky to move the sapphire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Why can't it be the sapphire, but before it turned into the Gate? I still think the scene takes place before the Order of the Scribble disbanded, and Soon was telling Lord Ronjo what was going to happen. (Two foreigners are going to seal the rift indefinitely using that sapphire.)
    That scenario doesn't make sense. For one thing, the scene in question is when Soon is very old and near death, and they sealed the rifts when he was still much younger looking. More importantly, they sealed all the rifts before they decided how to defend them, which was what the argument was about. We know that Soon had no contact with any of the others after that argument, so by the time that Soon founded the sapphire guard to defend his gate, the seal would have already been in place.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    You still haven't answered why the Sapphire...you know, the thing the gate is bound to, isn't in the chair we know it's supposed to be in. You can call B.S all you want but it not being the Sapphire is much more unlikely. Where's the Sapphire go then if it's not on the chair? You know, the chair, the throne room, the whole dang castle is built around? You'd think that'd be an important piece to be missing.
    Yes. That's the whole thing that makes it all so confusing.

    We know for a fact that the gates were already done when the Scribble disbanded and when Soon died. We can also be 99% sure that Soon would not risk the undoing of the universe when giving leadership to Ronjo (he just strikes me as a guy who wouldn't take that risk...) Therefore, it's very unlikely that the thing Soon is holding is the sapphire. So what is it? Why is the spot in the chair where the sapphire should be empty? This is what is so hard to tell.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Maybe that's not actually the throne room they're in, but a special duplicate they used while the real one was being cleaned?

    Hey, if nothing else works, it'll do as a fallback explanation.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    why is it so hard to grasp that the Sapphire is really small and in the scribble it wasnt worth it to make sure it was slightly more blueish, maybe the giant just didnt feel like it, we know he has left out minor things before and he didnt expect it to explode into something this big.

    And who knows what he was handing over, i assume it was just an ordinary gem that is used as the "crown" for rulers. or maybe its just a ceremony for show.

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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    If it can't be moved it would just float mid-air. I think that, as long as it's inside of something that you can move, the gate can move with it. Do I make sense?
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy_Knight View Post
    You're mssing the point. The statement is not "the gate can't be moved", it's "the gate can't be moved physically without risking its opening". It is irrelevant to what Hinjo said whether there exists a magical ritual that could move the rift.
    No I'm not. Until now everyone has been saying the gate cannot be moved, I will quote the various times it's been said until now. The two statements are not the same, regardless of the danger involved. You're also confusing the issue since my statement wasn't Hinjo was wrong because of the ritual..or any other such thing. I'll put it fully though.

    The statement "The Gates cannot be moved" is false because.

    1. No one has ever claimed that. The only time it's ever brought up was it was struck down because it was to dangerous. Not because it was impossible.

    2. There is a ritual that only Red Cloak and Team Evil knows about. Thus rendering the statement "The Gates cannot be moved" false even if that was ever said.

    Further to that point:


    Again, simply "could it have been moved?" was never the issue. The argument is: "If it was too dangerous to risk moving the sapphire, then it doesn't make sense to assume that Soon did exactly that". When people have said the sapphire "couldn't be moved", they meant without risking the opening of the gate, not that it literally couldn't be moved. We already know that it could, because Hinjo's reason why moving it won't work is that it's too risky, not that it's literally impossible.
    Hey! Once again I never claimed that he did. Please don't put words in my mouth. My only statement is that it's the Sapphire because it's the easiest answer to the question because it makes the least assumptions. You know, Occam's Razor?



    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    Yes. That's the whole thing that makes it all so confusing.

    We know for a fact that the gates were already done when the Scribble disbanded and when Soon died. We can also be 99% sure that Soon would not risk the undoing of the universe when giving leadership to Ronjo (he just strikes me as a guy who wouldn't take that risk...) Therefore, it's very unlikely that the thing Soon is holding is the sapphire. So what is it? Why is the spot in the chair where the sapphire should be empty? This is what is so hard to tell.
    We do know that yes. No one is claiming that Soon moved the gate just for the giggles and pomp of it though. The fact remains, and the only point I've actually made for what the Sapphire is, is that the evidence points to it being -the- Sapphire. I'll even


    1. It's a sapphire, or at least what we recognize as one from the drawings.

    2. There is no sapphire in the throne. We know that there -was- before it was destroyed and we know that the entire place was built -around- it. For it to be missing is the real question mark here as many have pointed out.

    3. Soon named the order after the sapphire they guarded.

    4. Soon transferred control over to Hojo's father over the entire guard.

    That's what we know. Once again, using logic here...it's the Sapphire

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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    Once again, using logic here...it's the Sapphire
    How about you trying to do that? I feel like we're stuck in a loop here. You cannt move the gate (the gate = the sapphire) without risking setting the Snarl free. Soon would obviously not do that when transfering command. Therefore it's very unlikely that the thing he is holding is the sapphire.
    Last edited by Cizak; 2011-08-20 at 10:10 AM.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmcfatty View Post
    And who knows what he was handing over, i assume it was just an ordinary gem that is used as the "crown" for rulers. or maybe its just a ceremony for show.
    It can't be the "'crown' for rulers". We saw Hinjo's coronation ceremony as Lord of Azure City, and it involved an actual metal crown, with points and everything. It could be the symbol for leadership over the Sapphire Guard, which until Soon handed it over to Lord Ronjo wasn't attached to the office of Lord of Azure City, and at that time became redundant as a symbol.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    No I'm not. Until now everyone has been saying the gate cannot be moved, I will quote the various times it's been said until now. The two statements are not the same, regardless of the danger involved. You're also confusing the issue since my statement wasn't Hinjo was wrong because of the ritual..or any other such thing. I'll put it fully though.
    Yes, you are. As I said, you're taking people's statements that "The sapphire can't be moved" literally, when it was really shorthand for "...without an unacceptable risk".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    The statement "The Gates cannot be moved" is false because.

    1. No one has ever claimed that. The only time it's ever brought up was it was struck down because it was to dangerous. Not because it was impossible.

    2. There is a ritual that only Red Cloak and Team Evil knows about. Thus rendering the statement "The Gates cannot be moved" false even if that was ever said.
    Right, and neither 1 nor 2 have anything to do with the argument that Soon wouldn't have taken that risk unnecessarily, again, unless you take people saying the gate "can't be moved" literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    Hey! Once again I never claimed that he did. Please don't put words in my mouth.
    I know you didn't--I'm saying you're putting words in other people's mouths, by thinking they're arguing that it's actually impossible to move the sapphire, not just too dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    My only statement is that it's the Sapphire because it's the easiest answer to the question because it makes the least assumptions. You know, Occam's Razor?
    Actually, Occam's Razor is more like "Don't complicate explanations beyond necessity", not "the explanation with the least assumptions is best" (and certainly not the "the easiest answer is best"). In any case, it's not clear that thinking it is THE sapphire has the fewest unnecessary assumptions anyway. The real question is: "What presumed peces of information must we discard if it is THE sapphire, vs. not?" Thus part of the reason for the thread.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    1. It's a sapphire, or at least what we recognize as one from the drawings.

    2. There is no sapphire in the throne. We know that there -was- before it was destroyed and we know that the entire place was built -around- it. For it to be missing is the real question mark here as many have pointed out.

    3. Soon named the order after the sapphire they guarded.

    4. Soon transferred control over to Hojo's father over the entire guard.

    That's what we know. Once again, using logic here...it's the Sapphire
    3. and 4. are true, but don't affect the argument.

    1. is possible, but not confirmed.

    2. is really the crux of the issue, and the question remains of how to reconcile the conflicting information we seem to be getting about the scene. It may be the sapphire, but if it is, we need to explain the problems that raises. If it isn't, then we need an explanation for what's actually going on there.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Question: Do we know that the gate is the sapphire?

    What if the sapphire is hollow, and it goes over the gate (with that gray thing being the real gate)?
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    I've just assumed it was a symbolic "passing of the torch" illustration.

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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Wait....a promise....Soon....we do not know enough about Gates.....

    connecting the dots....could've Soon known what was behind the Gates and promised not to tell anyone whats inside?
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wait....a promise....Soon....we do not know enough about Gates.....

    connecting the dots....could've Soon known what was behind the Gates and promised not to tell anyone whats inside?
    Say whut? The entire Order of the Scribble knew about the Snarl, obiously.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wait....a promise....Soon....we do not know enough about Gates.....

    connecting the dots....could've Soon known what was behind the Gates and promised not to tell anyone whats inside?
    Wait, what?

    Shojo knows, which means that the information certainly disseminated somehow - clearly only to the leaders of the Sapphire Guard and the followers of the others though.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

    When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

    So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

    The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another planeónot to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

    Hopefully, that clears the issue up.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Thanks for clearing that up.
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    That also adds a whole other level to Redcloak's deception. Not only is he lying to Xykon about being able to to control the Snarl, but he's also letting Xykon deceive himself into thinking the Gates could be moved around the prime material plane. Intriguing.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    It does clear that up, but now I'm a little confused about how Miko blew up the gate. If the gem was only the deadbolt, then how did destroying it unleash the Rift? Or did Miko cut through more than just the gem when she did that?

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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    It does clear that up, but now I'm a little confused about how Miko blew up the gate. If the gem was only the deadbolt, then how did destroying it unleash the Rift? Or did Miko cut through more than just the gem when she did that?
    Miko doesn't destroy the gem, she destroys the throne. Since the throne is built around the gate, presumably she cut through the gate as well, opening the rift.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I was thinking of when she killed Shojo. She does indeed destroy the gem, so there goes my theory in response to your question.
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2011-08-21 at 03:59 PM.
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    EDIT: Nevermind, I was thinking of when she killed Shojo. She does indeed destroy the gem, so there goes my theory in response to your question.
    The Gem was placed in front of the Gate, which reinforced the Seal, which sealed the Rift. They were all in the same spot.

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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    The Gem was placed in front of the Gate, which reinforced the Seal, which sealed the Rift. They were all in the same spot.
    Ok, it was the transparent gate bit that confused me. I interpreted "throne built around the gate" in a different way than "built around the gem / seal."
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

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  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by VanBuren View Post
    It does clear that up, but now I'm a little confused about how Miko blew up the gate. If the gem was only the deadbolt, then how did destroying it unleash the Rift? Or did Miko cut through more than just the gem when she did that?
    I'd say yes. You can see the Gate in the Gem so shattering the Gem would also mean that the sword cut through the gate which somehow caused it to explode.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

    When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

    So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

    The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another planeónot to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

    Hopefully, that clears the issue up.
    Thanks, Giant, that really does clear things up. So the sapphire was the final deadbolt, and the delay in placing it was due to the time needed to construct the castle and throne.
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