Relationship Woes and Advice XX: One X Short of an Awesome Title

[DeadManSleeping]

Cuckoldry is a time-honored tradition.

[NineThePuma]

Just make sure you have a plan to kill the boyfriend, in case things go bad.

(I'm not one to talk though)

[Heliomance]

Why is everyone encouraging me to Murder The Hypotenuse? O_o

My problem is that I don't WANT to be That Guy. I suspect that if I were to try for her despite the boyfriend, my chances wouldn't be too bad. But I don't want to do that.

Well. MOST of me doesn't want to do that. *looks shifty*

[DeadManSleeping]

You could definitely stop flirting. But let's face it: you don't want to do that. Let me break this down for you.

For the purposes of this breakdown, all acts of naughtiness, canoodling, and fornication will be collectively referred to as "talking".

You want to talk to this lady
She probably wants to talk to you
If you talk to her, you will both enjoy the talking until she goes home. This won't last much past that, I guarantee you
If you DON'T talk to her, you just get to stew in continual frustration wishing you were talking to her. And she probably does the same vice-versa, but tries to ignore it by telling herself how wrong it is.
Whether or not you talk to her, if she's a flirtatious person, there's not a small chance she'll end up talking to someone else
If you do talk to her, you've done something wrong, even if it is the case that she'll end up talking to someone else.

So you either give in to your desire to talk and do something bad, or you let yourself suffer even though you might not prevent the tragedy that accompanies the bad action you've avoided perpetrating.

I'm not encouraging either one. But I know you're either going to always wish you'd done something bad, or you'll do something bad and rationalize it away, most likely dragging you away from your current moral ideal.

Basically, no matter what, you're screwed.

Or you could go find someone else to talk to. I hear that helps.

[Coidzor]

It's all in good fun, but she has a boyfriend, and I'm starting to wonder how much flirting is too much.

If you were sure of that, it wouldn't be worth commenting on.

I don't want to back off though, I'm enjoying it too much.

Well, that right there is your problem there. You're becoming That Guy. :/

Which is probably why you're being advised to murder the hypotenuse, since it's better to just try and deal with the consequences from that than it is to to exist in that kind of limbo.

So you either give in to your desire to talk and do something bad, or you let yourself suffer even though you might not prevent the tragedy that accompanies the bad action you've avoided perpetrating.

Well, you'd avoid the negative effects of having done something bad and known it, which generally erodes/alters one's moral compass over time. Though you may be weighting the unpleasantness of not doing it a bit strongly and that's what's caused it to be overlooked.

Or you could go find someone else to talk to. I hear that helps.

Is all 4 the betta, after all.

[Vella_Malachite]

Hey, guys. I've been around here a bit, just wanted to share a quick story, more out of the need to share than anything else.

So, there's a guy, who I was crushing on for a long time. And, of course, me being the non-confident person I am, I said nothing for a long time. That was also partly because he went through some pretty significant relationship drama himself and I didn't want to add to that. Well, we were out on a group thing, but we both had stuff in the morning, so we didn't stay, and we walked home together, just us, talking about men's fashion and getting job experience, and all of those wonderful things that you talk about with friends and never quite remember how you got onto such a weird topic. It took me the whole damn way home to work up the courage to do it, and I nearly went to bed giving up, but after he'd closed his door, I knocked on it again, and told him I just wanted to say one last thing...and I confessed my crush. I told him I was OK if he didn't feel the same way.

So, he didn't. He said it was more of a thing with him than anything else, since he's got a lot of stuff on and a relationship isn't really in his list of "things to do" at the moment, but he was really sorry, and it's not me because I'm really quite an intelligent and very attractive girl and all that stuff. We agreed to be friends and gave each other standing invitations to visit each other anytime.
And I'm OK with that. I thought I'd feel worse, but I think I always knew that would be the answer, but having told him, I feel like I've gotten everything off my chest and I can pursue the friendship without all the "will we or won't we" I've been doing. So, cross that one off, I'll definitely spend more time with him in future, move on to the next one.

Now, if only I could make myself stop crushing on the guy who already has a girlfriend and isn't staying in this state for uni next year anyway (probably).

[Heliomance]

If you talk to her, you will both enjoy the talking until she goes home. This won't last much past that, I guarantee you

She's around for the next three years, and my relationship record so far is two months. I don't think that one's a problem :P

[H Birchgrove]

All this talk about flirting with persons who already have mates brings me back to my old pet peeve:

Why can't (gender-equal) polygamy & polyfidelity be more socially acceptable?

[Coidzor]

All this talk about flirting with persons who already have mates brings me back to my old pet peeve:

Why can't (gender-equal) polygamy & polyfidelity be more socially acceptable?

You mean more common. Its rarity is precisely why polyamory is not socially acceptable. Because to those who are part of the generally monogamous paradigm, poly is a threat, one way or another.

Also, polygamy has bad real world history and press in terms of power and sex. You're not going to get rid of that by just saying it's gender equal.

[Sholos]

There must be something about me that chases people away. That's my conclusion at this point. I don't have any close relationships, not a single person around me has ever pursued a close relationship with me, and I do not know how to pursue one on my end. I'll repeat that for everyone who will just say, "Why don't you make some?" I do NOT know how to pursue one on my end.

Maybe I'm overreacting, though. The most recent thing that happened is I was exchanging messages with a woman actually around my age (hard to find since I'm an overaged undergrad). I mentioned a club I was in that seemed relevant to her interests. She expressed interest, and then when she couldn't make it was sorry that she couldn't and asked if we met every week. I confirmed that we meet weekly, then mentioned a board game group I'm in and asked if she'd be interested. Didn't hear back. Sent another message a day before the next meeting of the club because she said she'd want to come. Didn't hear back. It's now been a full week since I last heard anything from her. Maybe I'm overreacting and she just hasn't had time to even send a quick message saying she's really busy. Though I find that hard to believe because a week ago she said she had the next week and a half free. So it must have been something I did, but I can't figure out what. I'm going to get a woman's perspective on this (at some point, no real good opportunities in the near future), but right now I'm just feeling more and more like there's something inherent to me that drives people off.

I only repost this because I think it might have been easily overlooked at the bottom of the last page, especially with the more well known members posting their own problems.

[H Birchgrove]

You mean more common. Its rarity is precisely why polyamory is not socially acceptable. Because to those who are part of the generally monogamous paradigm, poly is a threat, one way or another.

Also, polygamy has bad real world history and press in terms of power and sex. You're not going to get rid of that by just saying it's gender equal.

Good points, and yes that is true. But monogamous relationships have been hell for a lot of people too.

[DeadManSleeping]

A comic I read once had a humorous way of pointing out the general public's issue with polyamory.

"They were in a polyamorous relationship. Apparently he had forgotten to tell his girlfriend about that."

It's hard to approve of a lifestyle that does the exact thing that your lifestyle finds most anathema to its ideals. And you can't even make the excuse that any reasonable partner would tell anyone they got into a relationship with about the polyamory, because guess what: miscommunication happens. You could point out that the existence of polyamory doesn't actually increase the issues that happen with monogamous relationships (cheating happens regardless, after all), but that won't make people want to encourage what they see as harmful.

Personally, MY problem with polyamory is that social circles are hard ENOUGH to keep track of. Spats and breakups and hookups and hangups and makeouts and marriages are complicated enough when they happen between two people at a time. But I don't hold my bookkeeping as a valid reason to tell people what to do with their lives.

And by people I mean strangers. People I know should give me some consideration, dammit.

Also, would all the polyamorous guys stop hogging women, please. My chances are already low enough.

[Coidzor]

^: That reminds me of an article I once read on qntm.org about gay marriage from a database engineering perspective. Which is now dead. Aww.

Good points, and yes that is true. But monogamous relationships have been hell for a lot of people too.

And through their ubiquity and the bit where they've been "reclaimed" so that they're "about love" rather than about creating a family unit for property inheritance and child-rearing, that's not really an issue except when one is talking about cultures where women still have an unfortunate intersection with property, and there the issue is more about that than that marriage exists.

Sholos: If you don't know how, then what do you do?

[Sholos]

Sholos: If you don't know how, then what do you do?

Currently? I talk with people when I happen to see them (mostly at club meetings) and occasionally get invited to stuff. Over the past few weeks, I've been trying to be a little more proactive in hanging out with people, but so far that's pretty much been limited to two people, and I don't get to see the one very much because she's so busy. Is the trick really just asking people to do stuff with you?

[DeadManSleeping]

That certainly doesn't hurt. I really need to kick myself about being more socially proactive.

[Sholos]

And how long should you go being the only proactive one? How long is too long when no-one ever contacts you? That's been my life experience, for the most part. Me always being the one to initiate, which has always led me to believe that people only tolerate being around me (since they never actually ask to spend time with me). That's changed over the past couple years (there's a couple people who sometimes ask if I want to get lunch), but it's still infrequent.

[Odentin]

Is the trick really just asking people to do stuff with you?

The trick is doing it with confidence. That's about it.

[Deathslayer7]

So I have a question/problem. Spoilered for length.

Spoiler

Show

Currently I'm in the last years of my degree. I expect to graduate in Fall 2012 from my undergraduate degree and plan to apply to graduate school in the Spring of 2011 and take the GRE over the Summer 2011.

Well needless to say, this hasn't helped with my relationship with my girlfriend. We talked about doing lots of things and we have talked openly about this and I'll explain what we came up with.

The background situation is that currently I live with my parents at home. I have a part time job at the university which pays for schools and any expenses I occur. It's not enough to actually start saving money though ($800 every month minus approximately $550 i pay for tuition and gas to get to school. I am on a payment plan.) The $250 that I do have usually ends up being spent on her or date nights and whatnot or helping her out financially if she asks me.

Recently she was just fired and hired the day after but didn't start working till about three weeks ago so she needed help with her car payment and I helped her.

We have talked about moving out for my final year, but due to her being unable to afford both a car payment and rent it will not happen.

We have also talked about graduate school and this is what we came up with.

She wants to go back to school but it isn't necessarily a priority for her. She wants to but she just doesn't know how shes going to keep a full time job ($9/hr), pay for a car payment and pay for school. And her schooling would take 2-3 years to finish. She wants to get an Associates in veterinary Technician. In 2-3 years, I could easily finish my Master's degree (probably closer to 2 years).

So me staying here and waiting for her to finish school before she comes with me is not a reliable option. Yes I could get a job for two or three years, but I would rather finish my Master's than get a job.

The second option is that she comes with me where ever I might go. The only thing she wants though is security. She wants to make sure that we are able to pay the rent and that she has a job where ever I go. The problem with that is that I plan to take out loans for my Master's degree (out of state tuition so I have to. They don't have the Master's program I want here in state). But I don't know how much loans I will be able to acquire and I sure as hell can't provide her with a job there as I don't even know where "there" is yet. And even then I can't guarantee that she can get a job. Though in all honesty, finding a job is on her not me, but she still wants that secure feeling that we can pay for rent, bills and living expenses or whatnot.

So her moving with me right away is not a reliable option either. We have talked about where she might join me after six months, but I'm not sure if that is a viable option or not either.

The third option is that she stays here and continues to work her full time job paying off her car payment, and I go on to Graduate school by myself and try to finish as fast as reasonably possible. This seems to be where we are heading, but I don't know how I feel about a long distance relationship. I'm not forcing her to come with me and I understand that it might not be possible for her. But to me I'm wondering if a long distance relationship is worth it. Note I could be anywhere from a 4-8 hour drive away to even way out there.

So any help is appreciated.
Thanks in advanced.

anyone ever been in this situation? and reposting as well.

[Odentin]

anyone ever been in this situation? and reposting as well.

I moved to Hawaii for a couple months last year, to start going back to college. I had a job transfer, so money wasn't too much of an issue. My wife stayed behind, to finish up the paperwork and testing and crap so that our cat could come along with us. As it turned out, Hawaii was not the place for us, and I returned. (We're moving to Texas on Monday to try again, together this time).

Those two months were HELL. Being without my wife was unbearable, especially when it turned out that, because of some issues within her family, she wouldn't be able to follow me out as soon as initially discussed. Compounded with other issues on the island, it wasn't worth it.

Had I been single when I moved, it would have been amazing, but it wasn't.

Look, I'm not telling you to dump your girlfriend, but be realistic with yourself. If she can't or isn't willing to follow you, what kind of stress is that going to put on you and your relationship? Can you handle a long-distance relationship? You need to do what's best for you. If staying with her is what is best, then you need to stay in town or she needs to move with you. If what's best for you isn't with her, then...yeah. It's a tough decision. Make sure you consider all your options and make your decision based on what's best for YOU.

[DeadManSleeping]

And how long should you go being the only proactive one? How long is too long when no-one ever contacts you? That's been my life experience, for the most part. Me always being the one to initiate, which has always led me to believe that people only tolerate being around me (since they never actually ask to spend time with me). That's changed over the past couple years (there's a couple people who sometimes ask if I want to get lunch), but it's still infrequent.

Life tip: the vast majority of people SUCK at being socially proactive. There are a lot of people I love spending time around but whom I never call up (or Facebook up, as the kids do nowadays) to hang out. That's just life, man.

I used to think I was barely tolerated, too. And maybe I was. But it's pretty obvious to me now that between the business of life and the inevitable procrastination that comes with being human, it's a wonder people get to see each other outside work and coincidence at all.

[Serpentine]

All this talk about flirting with persons who already have mates brings me back to my old pet peeve:

Why can't (gender-equal) polygamy & polyfidelity be more socially acceptable?

While social acceptability no doubt does impact on the commonness of openly poly relationships, it is certainly hardly the only factor, personal preferences being a far bigger part of it - and extending into social acceptability as the majority foist their personal preferences onto others, of course.

*casts Summon Greater Serpentine IV*


I think you'll find these two comics, when read in unison, amusing:
Page 1
Page 2

Lawlsies

[Castaras]

The trick is doing it with confidence. That's about it.

I'd say rather than doing it with confidence, it's more pretending to have confidence. Which could be said to be the same thing, but pretending to have confidence is a lot easier to begin with than actually having confidence.

[Heliomance]

Oh frabjous day, calloo, callay!

So, I sat down and had a talk with her today, about exactly where this was going, because the flirting was getting so intense and she's not on the market. Turns out, she's actually been thinking about breaking up with her current boyfriend for a while. The chemistry with me has brought it into immediate relevance, and I think she's going to do it sooner rather than later. While not said outright, it was clearly intimated that she'd quite like to start going out with me soon after

[NineThePuma]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Heliomance]

Oh, shush, you

[NineThePuma]

My previous "murder the hypotenuse" statement remains. One of the basic rules of life, always have a backup plan. Especially true in romance.

I'd recommend being a little subtle in public for at least two weeks after she officially breaks up.

[H Birchgrove]

A comic I read once had a humorous way of pointing out the general public's issue with polyamory.

"They were in a polyamorous relationship. Apparently he had forgotten to tell his girlfriend about that."

Lulz!

It's hard to approve of a lifestyle that does the exact thing that your lifestyle finds most anathema to its ideals. And you can't even make the excuse that any reasonable partner would tell anyone they got into a relationship with about the polyamory, because guess what: miscommunication happens. You could point out that the existence of polyamory doesn't actually increase the issues that happen with monogamous relationships (cheating happens regardless, after all), but that won't make people want to encourage what they see as harmful.

(My bold.) What do you mean?

Personally, MY problem with polyamory is that social circles are hard ENOUGH to keep track of. Spats and breakups and hookups and hangups and makeouts and marriages are complicated enough when they happen between two people at a time. But I don't hold my bookkeeping as a valid reason to tell people what to do with their lives.

Fair enough.

And by people I mean strangers. People I know should give me some consideration, dammit.

Also, would all the polyamorous guys stop hogging women, please. My chances are already low enough.

That's not what you should worry about, in the long term. There will be more men than women than men in around 2020, IIRC. The reasons for this are:

1) Less wars and conflicts, meaning less men are sent to war.
2) Riskier behaviour among women (read: women have started to stupid things men used to do: getting into fights, speeding, drinking booze, smoking, etc).
3) Less risky behaviour among men = more men live.
4) Abortion of female foetuses in India and China.

Remember what happened when there was a "shortage" of women in Scandinavia, in the early Middle Ages? (Because the previous generations of male idiots thought girls were of less value, and ordered young girls to be killed.) The men realized they needed to give gifts to the remaining women in order to be able to get married, women got a higher status in society, and men travelled abroad to find those gifts... either by trade or by theft and piracy. Some decided it was better to take wives from these new lands.

So what I'm saying is...

... THE VIKINGS ARE COMING! AGAIN!

And through their ubiquity and the bit where they've been "reclaimed" so that they're "about love" rather than about creating a family unit for property inheritance and child-rearing, that's not really an issue except when one is talking about cultures where women still have an unfortunate intersection with property, and there the issue is more about that than that marriage exists.

Ergo, the issue is lack of equality between the sexes.

While social acceptability no doubt does impact on the commonness of openly poly relationships, it is certainly hardly the only factor, personal preferences being a far bigger part of it - and extending into social acceptability as the majority foist their personal preferences onto others, of course.

Hmm... This sounds correct to me.

[Coidzor]

Ergo, the issue is lack of equality between the sexes.

No, the issue is PR, the root of the PR issue is history. People have abused this in the past while the alternative has not only survived in competition with polygamy, but has even been partially redeemed.

(My bold.) What do you mean?

Referencing sleeping around and how it reminds people of cheating and sleeping around, I believe.

[DeadManSleeping]

(My bold.) What do you mean?

The entire point of monogamy (or, perhaps a new word might be accurate: monoamory) is that you are only in a romantic relationship with one person at a time. Any unapproved deviance from that is a betrayal of trust. Any approved deviance from that basically falls under polyamory (it's a VERY inclusive word). As such, any polyamory where active consent is required is weird, and polyamory where consent is assumed is no different than cheating.

Like I said, this isn't my personal view on polyamory. It's just what I extrapolate from basic ideals. It's hard for the human mind to accept that different people are made happy by different things, and as the scope gets broader (love and career as opposed to favorite foods and TV shows), it gets even harder to comprehend. It's not an issue of intentional narrow-mindedness or discrimination. People who find polyamory distasteful are, quite literally, unable to comprehend how it could make anyone happy, or how it could be fulfilling.

And then there are plenty of people who just don't understand what falls under polyamory. Some people think "an open relationship" doesn't count because it's still MOSTLY the two of them. Some people think "only for kinky stuff" doesn't count because it's just sex.

I hope this helps end your confusion.

[term1nally s1ck]

Gah.

Ok. I've asked a lady out. She says yes.

However, the way she's behaving about it, which included basically saying it wasn't happening if she hadn't finished an essay she's had for a while (notable lack of urgency in getting said essay done), is making me think that she doesn't actually realise that me asking her to go out for dinner with me was intended as a date. Further compounded by english not being her first language, and her arriving in an english country to stay for more than a week the first time only a month ago.

So now, I'm not sure which of 3 things is happening:

She knows and wants to go on the date, but is playing it cool.

She is clueless and thinks we're just going as friends if she gets this essay done.

She knows and wasn't sure, so she wanted to leave herself an easy way out if she didn't feel like it later.

And goddamnit, I'm exceptionally good at reading body language, she just seems so shy that her body language is constantly that of a skittish kitten.