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    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location

    Default Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Spellbinder

    A spontaneous caster with lots of options.

    Hit Die: d6
    Alignment: Any.
    Starting Age:As Wizard.
    Starting Money:As Wizard.

    Class Skills
    The spellbinderís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot, and Use Magic Device (Cha).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Spellbinder
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    | Bonus feat, create arcane focus, always learning, mystic style

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    | Metamagic alacrity

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Bonus feat

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Heighen Spell

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    | Bonus feat

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    | Metamagic intensity -1

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    | Bonus feat


    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    | Spell trance

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    | Bonus feat

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Timeless Body

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    | Bonus feat


    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    | Metamagic intensity -2

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    | Bonus feat

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    | Spellbane

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    | Bonus feat


    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    | Tongue of the sun and moon

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    | Bonus feat

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    | Metamagic intensity -3

    19th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    | Bonus feat


    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    | Improved spellbane [/table]


    {table=head]Spells Per-Day
    {table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | - | -
    1st | 4 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    2nd | 5 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    3rd | 6 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    4th | 7 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    5th | 8 | 5 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    6th | 9 | 6 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    7th | 10 | 7 | 4 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - |
    8th | 11 | 8 | 5 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - |
    9th | 12 | 9 | 6 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - |
    10th | 13 | 10 | 7 | 4 | 1 | - | - | - | - |
    11th | 14 | 11 | 8 | 5 | 2 | - | - | - | - |
    12th | 15 | 12 | 9 | 6 | 3 | - | - | - | - |
    13th | 16 | 13 | 10 | 7 | 4 | 1 | - | - | - |
    14th | 18| 14 | 11 | 8 | 5 | 2 | - | - | - |
    15th | 19 | 16 | 12 | 9 | 6 | 3 | - | - | - |
    16th | 20 | 17 | 14 | 10 | 7 | 4 | 1 | - | - |
    17th | 21 | 18 | 15 | 12 | 8 | 5 | 2 | - | - |
    18th | 22 | 19 | 16 | 13 | 10 | 6 | 3 | - | - |
    19th | 23 | 20 | 17 | 14 | 11 | 8 | 4 | - | - |
    20th | 24 | 21 | 18 | 15 | 12 | 9 | 6 | - | - |
    [/table][/table]

    {table=head]Spells Known
    {table=head]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | - | -
    1st | 8 | -| - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    2nd | 9 | 6 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    3rd | 10 | 7 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    4th | 10 | 7 | 6 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    5th | 10 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    6th | 10 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
    7th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 6 | - | - | - | - | - |
    8th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - | - | - |
    9th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - | - | - |
    10th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 6 | - | - | - | - |
    11th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - | - |
    12th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - | - |
    13th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 6 | - | - | - |
    14th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - |
    15th | 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - | - |
    16th | 10 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 6 | - | - |
    17th | 10 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - |
    18th | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | - | - |
    19th | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 8 |8 | - | - |
    20th | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 8 | - | - |
    [/table][/table]

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the spellbinder PC class.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A spellbinder is proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a spellbinderís gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: : A spellbinder casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the druid, cleric, and sorcerer spell lists, although only spells up to 6th level count as being on the spellbinderís spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a spellbinder must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a spellbinderís spell is 10 + the spell level + the spellbinderís Wisdom modifier.
    Like other spellcasters, a spellbinder can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Spellbinder. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.
    The spellbinderís selection of spells is slightly limited. A spellbinder begins play knowing eight 0-level spells of your choice. At each new spellbinder level, he gains more new spells, as indicated on Table: Spellbinder Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a spellbinder knows is not affected by his Wisdom score; the numbers on Table: Spellbinder Spells Known are fixed.)
    As noted above, a spellbinder need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spellís level. If the spellís components include DF, the spell instead requires an arcane focus.
    Create Arcane Focus: A spellbinder can create an arcane focus. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 25 gp. The item to be made into an arcane focus must be held in the spellbinderís hand(s) during the ritual. The spellbinder can use his arcane focus as if it were a divine focus, for arcane spells which have the DF component. Other characters, even other spellbinders, cannot use it for this purpose.
    A character may have only one arcane focus at a time, even a character with more than one class that grants an arcane focus. A destroyed or dismissed arcane focus cannot be replaced for a 24 hours.
    Always Learning: A spellbinder can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the spellbinder ďlosesĒ the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be of a level spellbinder spell the spellbinder can cast. Each attempt to swap a spell takes 10 minutes.
    To attempt to swap a spell, the spellbinder must either examine a magic item which has that spell as a prerequisite, or have the assistance of a creature who can cast the spell or use it as a spell-like ability. No matter what the spellís source, the spellbinder must spend 10 minutes studying the spell. At the end of that time, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spellís level). If the check succeeds, the spellbinder understands the spell and can swap it as described above. The process leaves the item or creature that was learned from unharmed.
    If the check fails, the spellbinder does not understand the spell. She cannot attempt to learn that spell again until a day has passed.

    Bonus Feats: At every odd-numbered level, a spellbinder gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat or an item creation feat. The spellbinder must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The spellbinder is not limited to the categories of item creation feats and metamagic feats when choosing these feats.
    Mystic Style: At 1st level, the spellbinder gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every third spellbinder level after that (7th, 10th, and so on), a spellbinder can choose to learn a new mystic style in place of one he already knows. In effect, the spellbinder ďlosesĒ the old mystic style in exchange for the new one.
    Each mystic style provides at least one special ability.
    Each mystic style gives the spellbinder a knack with certain spells. A knack provides a +2 competence bonus to any Concentration check while casting or maintaining spells which the caster has a knack for, a +2 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to identify a spell which to caster has the knack for, or to identify the effect of a spell which the caster has a knack for, and a +2 competence bonus to Use Magic Device checks to use an item built from a spell which the user has a knack for, or to use an item built from multiple spells, all of which the user has a knack for.
    Most mystic styles allow the spellbinder to more readily make certain objects into arcane focuses. When making the specified object into an arcane focus, the spellbinder only needs 1 gp worth of magical materials, rather than the usual 25 gp.
    The mystic styles are described below.
    Metamagic Alacrity: At 2nd level, when the spellbinder uses metamagic, the spellís casting time is not therefore increased.
    Heighten Spell: A spellbinder gains Heighten Spell as a bonus feat at 4th level
    Metamagic Intensity: At 6th level, when the spellbinder uses metamagic, level of spell slot needed is reduced by one, to a minimum of the spellís normal level. At 12th level, it is reduced by two, and at 18th level, by three.
    Spell Trance: Starting level, at 8th when making a Concentration check, a spellbinder may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.
    Timeless Body (Ex): Upon attaining 10th level, a spellbinder no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the spellbinder still dies of old age when her time is up.
    Spellbane: Starting at 14th level, a spellbinder adds his Wisdom bonus to dispel checks.
    Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): A spellbinder of 16th level or higher can speak with any living creature.
    Improved Spellbane: Starting at 20th level, a spellbinder who performs a counterspell does not use up the spell slot.

    Mystic Styles

    Animal Friend
    May not be chosen at 1st level.
    Animal Companion: The spellbinder gains an animal companion as a ranger of the same level.
    Knack List:
    All druidic spells of the Enhantment school.
    All druidic spells of the Transmutation school.
    All druidic spells of the Conjuration (calling) (summoning), and (teleport) subschools.
    Preferred arcane focus: holly & mistletoe

    Dominator
    Sap will (Su) The spellbinderís magic is laced with despair. When a spellís target fails a saving throw or chooses not to save, unless the spellbinder chooses otherwise at the time of casting, the target has a -1 penalty to any Will saves for the duration of the spell. This ability does not affect whether the spell in question is harmless.
    Knack List:
    All spells of the Enchantment school.
    All spells of the pattern and phantasm subschools.
    All spells with the fear and/or mind-affecting descriptors.
    Preferred arcane focus: whip

    DustWalker
    Turn Undead: The spellbinder can turn undead as an good cleric of the same level, using his spellbinderís staff in place of a holy symbol. If the spellbinder also has turn undead form another source, the abilities stack. The spellbinderís form of this ability is not affected by alignment or relationship with deity.
    Knack List:
    All clerical spells of the Evocation school.
    All clerical spells of the Transmutation school.

    Preferred arcane focus: hourglass

    Dynamancer
    Energy Conversion: When the spellbinder casts a spell with an energy descriptor, he may choose one energy type. For that casting, the spell has that descriptor in place of any energy descriptor(s) it might have, and any energy damage inflicted is of the chosen form of energy instead of its normal energy type.
    Charge Up: When the spellbinder casts a spell with an energy descriptor, all his speed ratings, whether inherent or acquired, are faster by 10 feet.
    Knack List:
    All cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, and/or sonic descriptors.
    Preferred arcane focus: torch

    Enigma
    Whim of Iron: When a spellbinder fails a save against a mind-affecting effect, he may immediately make a second saving throw as if making another saving throw against the effect . If he succeeds, he is confused for the duration of the spell in place of its normal effects.
    Knack List:
    All cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells of the Abjuration school.
    All cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells of the teleport subschool.
    Preferred arcane focus: signet ring

    Grim Harvester
    Rebuke Undead: The spellbinder can rebuke undead as an evil cleric of the same level, using his spellbinderís staff in place of a holy symbol. If the spellbinder also has rebuke undead form another source, the abilities stack. The spellbinderís form of this ability is not affected by alignment or relationship with deity.
    Knack List:
    All cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells of the Necromancy school.
    All cleric, druid, and sorcerer spells with the cold, darkness, and/or death descriptors.
    Preferred arcane focus: scythe

    Guardian
    Reassuring Bravery: The spellbinder is immune to fear, and each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus against fear effects. This ability functions while the spellbinder is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
    Knack List:
    All spells of the Abjuration school.
    All spells of the healing subschool.
    All spells with the force descriptor.
    Preferred arcane focus: small shield

    Healer
    Heal Thyself: As a spell-like ability, the spellbinder can cast a form of contingency which only applies to Conjuration (healing) spells.
    Knack List:
    All spells of the healing subschool.
    All spells with the water descriptor.

    Preferred arcane focus: healerís kit


    Herald
    Summon Familiar: A spellbinder with this special ability can obtain a familiar in exactly the same manner as a sorcerer can.
    Knack List:
    All spells of the calling, summoning and teleport subschools.
    All spells with the air, electricity, sonic and/or water descriptors.

    Preferred arcane focus: horn

    Priest Mage
    Summon Familiar: When casting a spell, the priest mage may choose whether to cast it as an arcane spell or a divine spell.
    Knack List:
    All domain spells of the priest mageís patron deityís domain.

    Preferred arcane focus: holy symbol (of patron deity)


    Shadowcaster
    Summon Familiar: The shadowcaster has both darkvision and low-light vision. Furthermore, if the shadowcaster has either or both of these from another source, she gains a +2 insight bonus to Spot checks made while benefiting from the relevant vision.
    Knack List:
    All spells of the figment, glamer, shadow and teleport subschools.
    All spells with the darkness and/or force descriptors.

    Preferred arcane focus: umbrella

    Shapeshifter
    May not be chosen at 1st level.
    Moon Form (Su):: A shapeshifter has the ability to turn herself into a specific type of animal and back again once per day. She must choose from the list below. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity.
    A shapeshifter loses her ability to speak while in moon form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
    The available forms are: Badger (animal), Bat (animal), Camel (animal), Cat (animal), Crocodile (animal), Dog (animal), Dog, riding (animal), Eagle (animal), Hawk (animal), Horse, light or heavy (animal), Lizard (animal), Owl (animal), Pony (animal), Porpoise (animal), Rat (animal), Raven (animal), Shark, Medium (animal), Snake, Tiny, Small or Medium viper (animal), Snake, Large viper (animal), Squid (animal), Toad (animal), Weasel (animal), Wolf (animal).
    Choosing crocodile, porpoise, shark, or squid as one's moonform is only recommended for naval or aquatic campaigns.

    Knack List:
    Those spells of the Transmutation school which do not have descriptors.
    Preferred arcane focus: wand

    Smithmage
    Routine Item Creation: A smithmage can create some magic items in a given year without expending personal energy. The smithmage can gain item creation points which, when spending XP on item creation, substitute for XP on a 1 for 1 basis. The ceremony to gain these points has verbal and somatic components, and takes an hour or uninterrupted time. It can only be performed if a year has passed or the smithmage has gained a level since the last time he performed this ritual. The ritual produces 50*level item creation points per each time he performs it.

    Knack List:
    All spells Evocation school that lack descriptors.
    All spells of the creation subschool that lack descriptors.
    All spells with the acid, earth, and/or fire descriptors.
    Preferred arcane focus: artisanís tools


    Seer
    Lore: The spellbinder knows relevant information as the bard ability bardic knowledge, using the spellbinderís spellbinder level in place of her bard level. If the spellbinder also has bardic knowledge, the abilities stack.
    Knack List:
    All spells of the Divination school.
    All spells with the language-dependant and/or light descriptors.
    Preferred arcane focus: mirror
    Trickster
    Nothing Up My Sleeves (Sp): When casting spells, the spellbinder does not require any divine focus nor any focus whose gold piece value exceeds 25 times the spellbinderís class level. There is no spell slot penalty for this ability.
    knack list:
    All spells.
    Preferred arcane focus: any

    Change Log
    8/20/2011: Increased spells per day. (Thank you, eftexar, Yitzi.)
    8/20/2011: Fixed table error. (Thank you, Morph Bark.)
    8/21/2011: Added mystic style class feature. (Thank you, Neoseraphi.)
    8/21/2011: Clarified spell list. (Thank you, Neoseraphi.)
    8/21/2011: Adjusted class skills.
    8/22/2011: Reduced spells per day (Thank you., Yitzi.)
    8/22/2011: Reduced staff cost. (Thank you, Yitzi.)
    4/19/2012: Added Heal to class skills.
    4/19/2012: Reduced Spells Per Day
    4/19/2012: Added more class features (always learning, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon).
    4/20/2012: Fixed cut and paste error references to monks. (Thank you, Yitzi.)
    4/21/2012: Reduced frequency of prestidigitator. (Thank you, Yitzi.)
    4/22/2012: Adjusted frequency and wording of prestidigitator again. (Thank you, Yitzi.)
    4/23/2012: Added Starting Age/Starting Money (Thank you SinsI, Yitzi)
    4/23/2012: Moved mystic style up to 1st level. (Thank you SinsI, Yitzi)
    4/26/2012: Added metamagic alacrity. (Thank you, Yitzi.)
    4/26/2012: Replaced spell intensity with metamagic intensity. (Thank you, Yitzi.)
    4/26/2012: Expanded mystic styles. (Thank you SinsI, Yitzi)
    4/30/2012: Revised and clarified routine item creation. (Thank you SinsI)
    5/1/2012: Reduced smithmage's item creation points, but allowed them to accumulate. (Thank you SinsI)
    8/13/2012: Increased spells per day.
    8/13/2012: Replaced spellbinderís staff with create arcane focus, and adjusted mystic style accordingly.
    8/13/2012: Added heighten spell.
    8/13/2012: Added more mystic styles
    8/13/2012: Dropped thaumaturge mystic style
    8/13/2012: Revised trickster mystic style
    Last edited by ideasmith; 2012-08-13 at 11:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newtkeeper View Post
    Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingel View Post
    You are funny, ideasmith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!
    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    I really like the idea of an arcane/divine casting class. I really do. But in order to do this you have dropped the total number of spells per day, as well as the level of spells. This severely drops the power of the class way beyond the utility it gives (with its much larger list of spells known). Look at the mystic theurge for example. I could take it and have up to 7th level spells, have half the feats you grant, more spells per day, retain turning/rebuking, have a slightly higher bab and fortitude, and retain spontaneous casting.
    I apologize for my bluntness, but why would I take this over that class (or over some other prestige duel-casting classes)? May I suggest adding in some more abilities to make up for the power difference.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2011-08-18 at 12:28 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    I really like the idea of an arcane/divine casting class. I really do. But in order to do this you have dropped the total number of spells per day, as well as the level of spells. This severely drops the power of the class way beyond the utility it gives (with its much larger list of spells known). Look at the mystic theurge for example. I could take it and have up to 7th level spells, have half the feats you grant, more spells per day, retain turning/rebuking, have a slightly higher bab and fortitude, and retain spontaneous casting.
    I apologize for my bluntness, but why would I take this over that class (or over some other prestige duel-casting classes)? May I suggest adding in some more abilities to make up for the power difference.
    I would take it in order to be able to choose from a long spell list when casting. I might be overrating the spontaneous-casting-from-a-long-list bit. Then again I might not. I think I will wait for more opinions. If more power seems to be called for, the spells per day can always be increased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newtkeeper View Post
    Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingel View Post
    You are funny, ideasmith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!
    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    I really like the idea of an arcane/divine casting class. I really do. But in order to do this you have dropped the total number of spells per day, as well as the level of spells.
    On the other hand, he's the ultimate tier 3 caster: A large selection of spells from 3 major lists, and the ability to cast spontaneously. In the hands of a savvy player, this could be an extremely dangerous class. I like it.

    Also, Spell Intensity partially compensates for the weaker spells, as it roughly allows DCs to keep up.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Since I was trying for 'about even with sorcerer or wizard' and there seems to be general agreement that the class is short of that, I have increased spells per day, more or less doubling them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newtkeeper View Post
    Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingel View Post
    You are funny, ideasmith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!
    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morph Bark's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Freljord

    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    Since I was trying for 'about even with sorcerer or wizard' and there seems to be general agreement that the class is short of that, I have increased spells per day, more or less doubling them.
    Point of order the first: it will never be even with them until it gets access to higher-level spells.

    Point of order the second: HOLY ELFING CRAP THAT CRAPTON OF SPELLS WHAT

    Point of order the third: there is a column of spell levels that does not list spell level but IS filled in. Por que?
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Point of order the first: it will never be even with them until it gets access to higher-level spells.
    How much higher do you suggest? (For this class, too high would be worse than too low.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Point of order the second: HOLY ELFING CRAP THAT CRAPTON OF SPELLS WHAT
    This class is about having lots of choices. Though there are three core classes that can have even more spells known (clerics and druids, depending the availability of spells from sources in use; wizards, depending on the availability of scrolls and spellbooks with new spells).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Point of order the third: there is a column of spell levels that does not list spell level but IS filled in. Por que?
    Fixed.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    Since I was trying for 'about even with sorcerer or wizard'
    You mean the broken tier 1 wizard or tier 2 sorcerer? There's no way this class can be even with them without access to the broken 9th level spells, but I see no reason you'd want that.

    If you meant a fixed wizard/sorcerer, then I'd say that in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, this class is already on that level (and for a really skilled player, quite a bit past it.)

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    You mean the broken tier 1 wizard or tier 2 sorcerer? There's no way this class can be even with them without access to the broken 9th level spells, but I see no reason you'd want that.
    Whether these classes are broken in practice seems to vary from group to group. There certainly seem to be enough groups which aren't noticing this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    If you meant a fixed wizard/sorcerer, then I'd say that in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, this class is already on that level (and for a really skilled player, quite a bit past it.)
    Anyone with the skill to fix wizard/sorcerer likely also has the skill to fix the spellbinder, if needed.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    Whether these classes are broken in practice seems to vary from group to group. There certainly seem to be enough groups which aren't noticing this problem.
    True. For such groups, I think a spellbinder would be quite well-balanced against those classes, assuming he's played as the class is meant to be played.

    Anyone with the skill to fix wizard/sorcerer likely also has the skill to fix the spellbinder, if needed.
    That's the thing: A spellbinder doesn't need fixing the way those classes do; it is (assuming no broken spells are allowed) a solidly balanced tier 3 caster.

    Basically, the only real argument for its being weak is when you're comparing it with broken classes (which is a somewhat natural thing to do, since it actually plays a lot like a broken wizard, but far weaker so that it isn't broken.)

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    This reminds me a lot of the spellcaster generic class from Unearthed Arcana. Which was a great class, save for the crappy spells known, so good job there.

    Personally, I like the class, but I think that since you're already weakening the generic spellcaster by limiting him to 6th level spells (same as the bard, and the bard gets cool and flavorful casting and more skills than you can wave a spellbinding staff at), you could do with some flavorful abilities as well.

    How about the ability to choose, at 1st level, between having a familiar, having an animal companion, and being able to turn or rebuke undead, using your spellbound staff to do so? (As you don't cast divine spells, there's no room for DMM cheese)

    The only really broken ability of the three would be the animal companion, but as you don't have ridiculous spellcasting or wildshape, I think it would actually be more balanced than the druid without being as unnoticeable as the ranger.

    (Also, you should probably mention exclusively that the spellbinder's spell list does not include 7-9th level spells. As it stands now, a loose interpretation of your class would allow scroll-casting of 7th-9th level spells from all three spell lists with no UMD checks)
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    True. For such groups, I think a spellbinder would be quite well-balanced against those classes, assuming he's played as the class is meant to be played.



    That's the thing: A spellbinder doesn't need fixing the way those classes do; it is (assuming no broken spells are allowed) a solidly balanced tier 3 caster.

    Basically, the only real argument for its being weak is when you're comparing it with broken classes (which is a somewhat natural thing to do, since it actually plays a lot like a broken wizard, but far weaker so that it isn't broken.)
    Ah. You are saying that the class is already balanced either way. Which is already my impression, though Morph Bark had me wondering.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    This reminds me a lot of the spellcaster generic class from Unearthed Arcana. Which was a great class, save for the crappy spells known, so good job there.

    Personally, I like the class, but I think that since you're already weakening the generic spellcaster by limiting him to 6th level spells (same as the bard, and the bard gets cool and flavorful casting and more skills than you can wave a spellbinding staff at), you could do with some flavorful abilities as well.

    How about the ability to choose, at 1st level, between having a familiar, having an animal companion, and being able to turn or rebuke undead, using your spellbound staff to do so? (As you don't cast divine spells, there's no room for DMM cheese)

    The only really broken ability of the three would be the animal companion, but as you don't have ridiculous spellcasting or wildshape, I think it would actually be more balanced than the druid without being as unnoticeable as the ranger.
    Cool idea. And I think there is still a bit of Ďroomí in the class for some upgrading. Added, but toned down a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    (Also, you should probably mention exclusively that the spellbinder's spell list does not include 7-9th level spells. As it stands now, a loose interpretation of your class would allow scroll-casting of 7th-9th level spells from all three spell lists with no UMD checks)
    Done.
    Last edited by ideasmith; 2011-08-21 at 08:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    Ah. You are saying that the class is already balanced either way. Which is already my impression, though Morph Bark had me wondering.
    It's not "balanced" in the sense that anybody can just sit down and play it, and it'll fit into a normal party powerwise; in order for a Spellbinder to keep up with even a nonoptimized wizard or cleric, it needs to be played in a manner that takes advantage of its strengths. But that's ok; classes that take skill to play well can be the most fun of all.

    Actually, the increase in spells/day may be a bit much; as things stand, he has roughly as many total spells per day as a sorcerer, and more of the higher levels (since it's spread over 6 levels rather than 9); since Spell Intensity makes up for the lower spell level, as things stand right now he's probably a slightly better debuffer than a wizard or sorcerer (since he has more of his higher-level spells). In a standard casting class that wouldn't be such a problem, but when paired with that level of versatility (especially short-term versatility) it's just too much.

    Assuming you want him to be comparable to a non-broken sorcerer or wizard rather than the broken variety, I'd move him back either to the old spells/day, or else somewhere in between (perhaps capping at 6 of each level.)

    (It's not even like spells/day will be such an issue for him; he can afford to pick up a Call Lightning or Produce Flame, or even some cleric combat buffs, for when he's got more actions than spells to use in them.)

    Oh, you probably should make the staff cheaper, though, if you intend for a first-level spellbinder to be able to cast spells from the cleric and druid lists.

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Apologies for double post.
    Last edited by ideasmith; 2012-04-23 at 10:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    It's not "balanced" in the sense that anybody can just sit down and play it, and it'll fit into a normal party powerwise; in order for a Spellbinder to keep up with even a nonoptimized wizard or cleric, it needs to be played in a manner that takes advantage of its strengths. But that's ok; classes that take skill to play well can be the most fun of all.

    Actually, the increase in spells/day may be a bit much; as things stand, he has roughly as many total spells per day as a sorcerer, and more of the higher levels (since it's spread over 6 levels rather than 9); since Spell Intensity makes up for the lower spell level, as things stand right now he's probably a slightly better debuffer than a wizard or sorcerer (since he has more of his higher-level spells). In a standard casting class that wouldn't be such a problem, but when paired with that level of versatility (especially short-term versatility) it's just too much.

    Assuming you want him to be comparable to a non-broken sorcerer or wizard rather than the broken variety, I'd move him back either to the old spells/day, or else somewhere in between (perhaps capping at 6 of each level.)

    (It's not even like spells/day will be such an issue for him; he can afford to pick up a Call Lightning or Produce Flame, or even some cleric combat buffs, for when he's got more actions than spells to use in them.)
    Spells per day toned down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Oh, you probably should make the staff cheaper, though, if you intend for a first-level spellbinder to be able to cast spells from the cleric and druid lists.
    While the cost was indeed way too high, many cleric and druid spells can be cast without a divine focus.
    Last edited by ideasmith; 2011-08-22 at 11:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Revised based on advice from this wiki.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Still looks good, although some abilities taken from the monk still say "monk". By the way, what type of action is the Prestidigitator ability?

    Also, that other version you linked is missing "always learning" and has by-level replacement instead.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2012-04-19 at 10:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Still looks good, although some abilities taken from the monk still say "monk".
    Thank you for catching that. Fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    By the way, what type of action is the Prestidigitator ability?
    ďas the spellĒ
    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Also, that other version you linked is missing "always learning" and has by-level replacement instead.
    If I changed the class on both sites at the same time, that would likely lead to simultaneous discussions on the same subject in two different forums. Which I prefer to avoid.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    ďas the spellĒ
    As though you had to cast the spell (a standard action), or as though you had already cast it (unclear, but probably a move action to initiate and free as it continues)?
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    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    As though you had to cast the spell (a standard action), or as though you had already cast it (unclear, but probably a move action to initiate and free as it continues)?
    Thanks for catching that. Missed that one casting might have multiple effects. Reduced frequency to 1/hour.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    So he gets a cantrip 1/hour...doesn't seem that impressive an ability.
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    So he gets a cantrip 1/hour...doesn't seem that impressive an ability.
    It does look a bit weak. Any suggestions?
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    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    It does look a bit weak. Any suggestions?
    Maybe give him the ability to create prestigitation effects as though he had prestigitation cast at all times; creating such an effect is a move action, and it continues until completed.
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    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Maybe give him the ability to create prestigitation effects as though he had prestigitation cast at all times; creating such an effect is a move action, and it continues until completed.
    Revised again. The current version allows simultanous prestitigitation spells up at the same time, which might be a problem.
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    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    Revised again. The current version allows simultanous prestitigitation spells up at the same time, which might be a problem.
    It also runs into the fact that he has to keep taking standard actions to cast it...I think letting him just have it always up is a better approach.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    It also runs into the fact that he has to keep taking standard actions to cast it...I think letting him just have it always up is a better approach.
    Thanks. Revised again.
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    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    What is his starting wealth?

    Am I correct that this class must advance from level 1 to level 2 using cantrips only? With no BAB and d6 hit die, no armor and no martial weapons?
    Does he get any bonus spells from attributes?

    And up to level 3 he can cast no more than two first level spells?

    And on the upper levels he has no access to the stronger spells and spell slots?
    ...So metamagic is out because it has no spell slots for it...

    ...seems like a Tier 6 class.

    One important question: scrolls - are they considered to be magic items for the purpose of "swapping" the spells? Same question for any other items with charges (i.e. almost used up wands/staves).


    ...How exactly is THAT supposed to survive?

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    What is his starting wealth?
    Yeah, this needs to give starting wealth/age.

    Am I correct that this class must advance from level 1 to level 2 using cantrips only? With no BAB and d6 hit die, no armor and no martial weapons?
    There are some nice support spells among the cantrips and orisons...he's not going to be able to handle any encounter by himself except by using his skills, but a good selection will help the party handle unexpected situations.

    Does he get any bonus spells from attributes?
    Spells/day yes, spells known no.

    And up to level 3 he can cast no more than two first level spells?
    Yeah (well, plus 1 for his WIS score), but with as many as 7 to choose from, he can pick the one that's perfect for the situation.

    ...So metamagic is out because it has no spell slots for it...
    True; the only metamagic that would really be useful for him is an improved Quicken which lets him cast as an immediate action.

    ...seems like a Tier 6 class.
    Depends how you play him. Try to play him like a sorcerer or wizard, he's tier 5. Play him in the way that takes advantage of his strengths, and I suspect he'll be a strong tier 3.

    One important question: scrolls - are they considered to be magic items for the purpose of "swapping" the spells? Same question for any other items with charges (i.e. almost used up wands/staves).
    I would presume so.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
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    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    There are some nice support spells among the cantrips and orisons...he's not going to be able to handle any encounter by himself except by using his skills, but a good selection will help the party handle unexpected situations.
    Mind naming a few? Is that the magnificent 1 minute buff that gives you +1 to save, or +1 hit point, or +1 to attack?
    Or a Touch of Fatigue that fatigues your enemy for all of 1 round?
    Or a Daze that forces 1 humanoid opponent to lose his next action?

    As it is written, at beginner levels this class is worse than Adept, it is completely helpless.

    -Helping a party in "unexpected situations" is no excuse to being unable to perform in the most basic of expected situations.

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    Default Re: Spellbinder [3.5, class]

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    Mind naming a few? Is that the magnificent 1 minute buff that gives you +1 to save, or +1 hit point, or +1 to attack?
    When someone's about to make the check that will win or lose you the adventure, +1 on the roll from Guidance is pretty decent.

    Or a Touch of Fatigue that fatigues your enemy for all of 1 round?
    That, probably not.

    Or a Daze that forces 1 humanoid opponent to lose his next action?
    That is definitely useful when it's the four of you against a single boss. Not worth casting every encounter...but that's why you get a few options.

    And you forgot to list Create Water/Purify Food and Drink (useful to have available for when you really need it), Light, Know Direction, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand. Each one might only be useful 10% of the time...but that means the spellbinder can be useful from spells 60% of the time, and skills will help with a lot of the remainder.

    As it is written, at beginner levels this class is worse than Adept, it is completely helpless.
    An adept has an inferior skill list, and more importantly an adept has a poorer spell selection, especially after having cast a spell or two.

    Also, don't forget that a spellbinder is pretty much the ultimate when it comes to using magic items.

    -Helping a party in "unexpected situations" is no excuse to being unable to perform in the most basic of expected situations.
    I would disagree. The expected situations usually aren't the ones that threaten a TPK.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

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