Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Terry576]

My friend described why he hates River the best.

"I don't hate her because she's a terrible character, I hate her because she makes the Doctor lose 300 IQ points when she's around."

He does. Every time River is around during Eleven, Eleven is all "I can not brain today, I have the dumb." But not because he's an idiot, but because Moffat has decided that warfing the Doctor is the best way to make River appear intelligent.

No it's not the best way Moffat. The best way is to write her as an intelligent character.

I can't wait for his explanation why his Half Time Lord Mary Sue character dies in the library, despite her regenerating multiple times.

[Nightmarenny]

You already got the reason. She gave up all her regeneration's to save the Doctor in lets kill Hilter. I don't agree that Moffat writes him dumber. At first River has a leg up on him flying the Tardis but she can't do much more then that and get his attention. By the beginning of Season 6 the Tide has turned and while it looks like she is correcting his mistakes when he lands the Tardis in the oval office we learn that he was just obfuscating stupidity.

Would you mind giving examples?

Also I don't wanna rules Lawyer you but River can't be a Mary Sue. She very rarely saves the day, she has a very specific set of skills that arn't always useful, she has defined character flaws and most importantly she isn't like unconditional by every character in the setting.

[Weezer]

I'm with Nightmarenny, the Doctor is no stupider when River is around, he still is the one who saves the day every time, the one who has the crazy, brilliant ideas and the one who charges recklessly into every situation, confident in his ability to pull himself out.

[Terry576]

Because the very phrase half Time-Lord is Mary Sue-esque.

Because being born in the Time Vortex is a stupid idea.

Because she was the best friend of a main character back in time and then regenerated into herself.

Examples where the Doctor goes stupid around her? Do I need to? He suddenly and remarkably is significantly less competent whenever she is around.Not less intelligent, just less competent in any given situation where RIVER SONG, ADVENTURER EXTRAORDINAIRE, might be able to do something.

It started in the library. The instant River appeared near the Doctor someone dies.

I wouldn't mind River if the Doctor didn't have to be grossly incompetent for her to work as a character.

She can fly the Tardis. She's part Time Lord. She knows his future. She understands the incomprehensible man.

She already has a very very clearly defined set of skills that worked for her in the Library. She was an Archaeologist, intelligent, and knew about the Doctor's future. She wasn't filled with Sue qualities.

Sue qualities River totes:

• Does something one or two people can do (Flies the Tardis)
• Half of either an extinct race or a race the main character(s) belong to because "Fractions are cool" (Half Time Lord)
• Knows canon events before hand (Journal)
• Has an annoying catch phrase that makes you know she will dominate the episode/chapter ("Hello sweetie")
• Possible Romantic Interest with the main character (The Doctor, and no. I hate River too much to consider her a plausible romantic interest.)
• Tragic and implausible past (I did a Tenant What at the whole "I am Amy and Rory's daughter and also her best friend but from the future and also the past")
• Tragic Past (She killed her romantic interest! Oh woe! Oh the humanity!)
• Speaks on level with the most intelligent character like it's normal. (The Doctor)

Sue qualities River had in the Library:

• Knows canon events beforehand
• Has something one or two people have (Screwdriver)
• Speaks a bit below par the most intelligent character like it's normal. (The Doctor)

...Yeah. The fact of the matter is, she should not be able to communicate with the Doctor like it's an everyday thing. Donna could only do it with a Time Lord's consciousness. The Doctor knows too much about any and everything for anyone to communicate with him like it's normal. He has to dumb himself down to talk to people like a normal conversation.

Alternatively, it could be my seething hatred for River Song leaking through again, in which case you can ignore me.

I literally cringed and groaned out loud when I saw "hello sweetie" at the start of Pandorica. Then again, I cringed multiple times, like with Rory somehow overcoming the fact that he's a robot and being able to have children. (what)

Honestly, the plot holes right now are starting to pile up on me and increase the things I hate about Doctor Who. I hate Plot holes with a passion in anything and seeing them slowly and slowly rise up over me is depressing. I want the small little things to be explained, dammit. You just showed us Rory is a robot. Why can he resist the call that every other robot ever had to submit to? You never said he was built by the Daleks, meaning you can't cop out and use what happened in Victory of the Daleks to justify it dammit.

[Dienekes]

I've felt that while River may be a Sue, the Doctor is that and worse. Still like him though, and still like her.

However, I don't really see the Doctor get stupider. For instance, the only example given so far (River appears someone around the Doctor dies), doesn't that happen in most episodes? The Doctor rarely saves everyone, that was why he was so happy in Doctor Dances. Now if other examples come up, sure I'll concede but none come off the top of my head. The Doctor gets the great ideas that save the day, and I can't think of a single time that didn't happen. Sure River saves him during Let's Kill Hitler, but only after the Doctor pulls his stunt to save everyone else (including River)

Also personally I like that she talks to the Doctor like it's an everyday thing. That's part of why I like her, Donna, and the Ponds the most of the companions I've seen. Donna did have the gumption to say "shut up space man" a few times, which automatically made me like her even before the Doctor Donna moment. Rory got to punch him in the face, and told him exactly what he felt was wrong about him in his "you make people take risks" speech. I like that, it adds balance and importance to their characters. Don't get me wrong, the show is about the Doctor, but being the Doctor's hanger-on is not exactly interesting in itself. They need to be strong characters in their own right.

[Weezer]

Yeah, River is shown to be very competent and has some abilities that only the Doctor has. But the whole half-Time Lord thing is actually not all that ridiculous or unique, the 7th Doctor was planning to turn his human companion Ace into a Time Lord (then the show was cancelled, sigh) giving precedent for non-Gallifreyan Time Lords. And since exposure to the Time Vortex is the catalyst for making all Time Lords, a baby who is exposed to it from birth would reasonably take up many Time Lord qualities. Also the Doctor is not the smartest being in the universe, plenty of people talk to him as intellectual equals, in fact Romana I and II were constantly stunned by his lack of knowledge in the realms of "basic" temporal engineering and his sloppy flying of the Tardis (River wasn't the first to do that either). Yeah, the Doctor is knocked down a few pegs by River but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, he just is now with someone who he doesn't outshine in every way, which I hold as something the Doctor really needs.

And you have yet to show how the Doctor gets stupider, besides that people die when she is around and people often die when the Doctor is present, that is a major plot point in the last season, how dangerous he was to simply be around.

[Terry576]

Rose understood the Doctor without talking to him normally. I liked that. It added chemistry and it was well done.

Donna had the guts to tell him to stop talking when he was going too far. He liked that enough to call her his best friend.

River talks to him like he's just a regular person. I hate that because he is not a regular person. He's the Doctor. He's the main character of the main characters, and pretty Sue-ish in his own right.

It's not that he acts like an idiot. It's that he doesn't act as smart as he normally would whenever River is in an episode. It bugs me because both characters could be written perfectly well, (Currently, River from the Library is completely different from actual River, because actual River is a terrible character,) but instead it's easier to make one of them less competent so the other can shine. River would be good in her own show, where she goes off and does whatever and can be as clever as she wants, but it doesn't work when you have to trade off the Doctor being clever and her being clever.

He doesn't act less stupid, he just is less competent than he normally is. It's in the way they present it too. I like the strong companions, I don't like companions who try and just overpower everyone else as a character.

There's a difference between turned into a Time Lord and "oh she was conceived in the vortex and is therefore part time lord.

Also she is her mother's best friend."

[Weezer]

You still aren't really giving examples, you're just stating "he acts less competent" without really giving much support.

I'm not really seeing the difference. It's a similar (if not the same) process, but just happened at different points in their lives. What do you see the difference as?

Yeah, River overpowers everything, but there are people who do that, people who step into a room and *bam* everything is focused on them. That's how the Doctor is and I enjoy that she acts as a counterpoint to him. I think the big difference in our stances is that I like the way River counterbalances the Doctor, the way she takes some focus away from him, whereas you don't like it. I see that as her primary intended function (as well as injecting an air of mystery to the series) and feel that it was implemented well.

However, I think her time is over, it's becoming far less effective and Wedding showed how much her character was played out. It is now time for her to show up maybe one more time and then disappear, she has served her purpose.

[NikitaDarkstar]

There is a pretty big difference between what was planned for Ace and what River Song is. Ace would have become a Time Lord (/Lady) when there was still plenty of them around with all the knowledge of such things still available at Gallifrey, but she would have been an artificial one, and she wouldn't have been a half time lord, she would have been a proper time lord who was born human. (Possibly not the most popular person on Gallifrey, but hey, neither was the Doctor.) River Song is a naturally born half time lord because she happened to be conceived in the TARDIS, a device that is supposed to protect the people who travel within it from the forces of the time vortex. Bonus points for having a human mother and a plastic-robot dad, also known as an auton. (Sorry but yhea that's what he got turned into, a somewhat more advanced one, but yes.)

And it's not just a matter of her being equal to the Doctor (or better), she does it all without having the benefits of his rather long education. Sure he wasn't the most devoted Time Lord and she was taught in the future, but she was still trained only to kill the Doctor and she wasn't taught by Time Lords, yet she seems to know things that are Time Lord exclusive. (Such as an ancient time lord language and piloting the Tardis, which was never properly explained.).

Heck you know what? Just read her tardis.wiki entry right here http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/River_Song and tell me she doesn't get to much of a central role to often.

As for strong characters? Yes she is one, and if done right that can be great, but she doesn't compliment the Doctor at all, she overshadows him by being a female version of him that basically tells him to shut up and come a long, which wouldn't be to bad from time to time if she was the main character, but she isn't. The Doctor is, the only thing she brings to the table is the exact same things he does but in a way that makes him look redundant.

And one example that comes to mind of her outshining the Doctor is in the Pandorica opens, she taunts a dalek, telling it too look her up (sounds like 10th in Silence in the Library btw :p) and it ends up begging for mercy. The Doctor is their friggin arch nemesis and he hasn't pulled that off. Yes he's made them hesitate, yes he's gotten them to fear him, but a dalek begging for mercy? No matter who or what River Song is she shouldn't be able to get stronger reactions out of a dalek than the Doctor who was pretty much responsible for wiping them out. (Well more or less, they and the Master never stays that dead do they?) Heck between the Doctor (time war, hello?) and Rose (just killed what they considered their god, the Emperor...) what could River possibly have done?

As for obvious outsmarting of the Doctor, (same episode by the way), after the Doctor erased himself from time to repair the universe she left her blank diary with Amy so Amy could remember him back into existence. (Okay sure it's hard to have Doctor Who without the Doctor) The Doctor was convinced he was gone, yet she somehow knew that if someone just remembered he'd come back? Also if all the things they had experienced together up until that point vanished how come she A) had the journal (that the Doctor gave her!) and B) Could still remember him when noone else could? And even ignoring those two things, how come she could figure this out when the Doctor couldn't?

[Xondoure]

Re: Rory is a robot.

The universe got rebooted. He is human.

[LokeyITP]

NikitaDarkstar, those eps fall apart in different ways (not to say that they weren't great fun and so on). I'd think production concerns are something to consider: it's be nice for Amy to have the diary as a bit of business but annoying to have to cast someone else to get it to her (same with how the doctor gets out of his jam in the opening of the ep). Dalak/River standoff was over-the-top, I don't defend it, but we don't know much about the new Dalaks yet either.

River's knowledge about anything in general is explained: she spends a lot of off-camera time with the doctor. As a general note, it's easy to miss explanations/call outs in seasons 5 and 6 because of the dialog pace and remember the crappy sound encoding BBCAmerica was using for a lot of eps.

Diminishing, etc...I guess I don't see it that way. It's mostly Moffat episodes and those are usually frenetic and like to play with expectations, it's certainly easy to miss call outs or explanations (whether those are sufficient can be argued).

Granted at the beginning the Doctor/River storyline was interesting, I think it became too limiting--you lose a sense of danger for either character. I certainly see problems, but not sure how to deal with them better. Also do we have to go through this every 10 pages? :)

[Nightmarenny]

Rose understood the Doctor without talking to him normally. I liked that. It added chemistry and it was well done.

Donna had the guts to tell him to stop talking when he was going too far. He liked that enough to call her his best friend.

River talks to him like he's just a regular person. I hate that because he is not a regular person. He's the Doctor. He's the main character of the main characters, and pretty Sue-ish in his own right.

It's not that he acts like an idiot. It's that he doesn't act as smart as he normally would whenever River is in an episode. It bugs me because both characters could be written perfectly well, (Currently, River from the Library is completely different from actual River, because actual River is a terrible character,) but instead it's easier to make one of them less competent so the other can shine. River would be good in her own show, where she goes off and does whatever and can be as clever as she wants, but it doesn't work when you have to trade off the Doctor being clever and her being clever.

He doesn't act less stupid, he just is less competent than he normally is. It's in the way they present it too. I like the strong companions, I don't like companions who try and just overpower everyone else as a character.

There's a difference between turned into a Time Lord and "oh she was conceived in the vortex and is therefore part time lord.

Also she is her mother's best friend."

Yeah I'm gonna need some specifics man. When you say "do I even need to say it?" and several people say "yes" it might be a good idea to say it.

Also is River called part Timelord? Per Canon shouldn't she just be strait Time Lord?

[Nightmarenny]

There is a pretty big difference between what was planned for Ace and what River Song is. Ace would have become a Time Lord (/Lady) when there was still plenty of them around with all the knowledge of such things still available at Gallifrey, but she would have been an artificial one, and she wouldn't have been a half time lord, she would have been a proper time lord who was born human. (Possibly not the most popular person on Gallifrey, but hey, neither was the Doctor.) River Song is a naturally born half time lord because she happened to be conceived in the TARDIS, a device that is supposed to protect the people who travel within it from the forces of the time vortex. Bonus points for having a human mother and a plastic-robot dad, also known as an auton. (Sorry but yhea that's what he got turned into, a somewhat more advanced one, but yes.)

And it's not just a matter of her being equal to the Doctor (or better), she does it all without having the benefits of his rather long education. Sure he wasn't the most devoted Time Lord and she was taught in the future, but she was still trained only to kill the Doctor and she wasn't taught by Time Lords, yet she seems to know things that are Time Lord exclusive. (Such as an ancient time lord language and piloting the Tardis, which was never properly explained.).

Heck you know what? Just read her tardis.wiki entry right here http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/River_Song and tell me she doesn't get to much of a central role to often.

As for strong characters? Yes she is one, and if done right that can be great, but she doesn't compliment the Doctor at all, she overshadows him by being a female version of him that basically tells him to shut up and come a long, which wouldn't be to bad from time to time if she was the main character, but she isn't. The Doctor is, the only thing she brings to the table is the exact same things he does but in a way that makes him look redundant.

And one example that comes to mind of her outshining the Doctor is in the Pandorica opens, she taunts a dalek, telling it too look her up (sounds like 10th in Silence in the Library btw :p) and it ends up begging for mercy. The Doctor is their friggin arch nemesis and he hasn't pulled that off. Yes he's made them hesitate, yes he's gotten them to fear him, but a dalek begging for mercy? No matter who or what River Song is she shouldn't be able to get stronger reactions out of a dalek than the Doctor who was pretty much responsible for wiping them out. (Well more or less, they and the Master never stays that dead do they?) Heck between the Doctor (time war, hello?) and Rose (just killed what they considered their god, the Emperor...) what could River possibly have done?

As for obvious outsmarting of the Doctor, (same episode by the way), after the Doctor erased himself from time to repair the universe she left her blank diary with Amy so Amy could remember him back into existence. (Okay sure it's hard to have Doctor Who without the Doctor) The Doctor was convinced he was gone, yet she somehow knew that if someone just remembered he'd come back? Also if all the things they had experienced together up until that point vanished how come she A) had the journal (that the Doctor gave her!) and B) Could still remember him when noone else could? And even ignoring those two things, how come she could figure this out when the Doctor couldn't?

Um she didn't out think the Doctor. The reason he was brought back was because he told her to remember what he told her as a little girl. "Something Borrowed, blue, old, and new". The notebook may have helped but it was his plan. I can't say why she remembered him though.

The Dalek begs for mercy because River would freaking kill him. It had nothing to do with her being better then him. She is just merciless. That's not a good thing.

[chiasaur11]

The Dalek begs for mercy because River would freaking kill him. It had nothing to do with her being better then him. She is just merciless. That's not a good thing.

Also, because she "killed" the Doctor in cold blood, for keeps.

It's a bit of a Flashman reputation boost, being based on a lot of lies, but the person who ices the Doctor is going to scare half the galaxy, especially because, you know, she has the thing at gunpoint and the one defense it has is "The Doctor and his buddies aren't killers".

[NikitaDarkstar]

I admit I need to re-watch that part of the episode again to confirm a few things (something that will have to wait until later today at the very least...) but would the dalek even know that she's the one who's going to kill him? If it was common knowledge, especially to the daleks, why even bother with trying to imprison him in the pandorica if his death is a fixed point in time? Nothing they do before then is going to work if he's supposed to be at one specific place at a specific time to die, if they knew why did they get involved in the pandorica? (Hmm, did we find another plot hole perhaps? Think we might have... >.<)

[Nightmarenny]

There is nothing in any episode to imply that the Dalek knew River Song killed the Doctor nor that his death was a fixed point in time. All the Dalek needed to know was that she is one of two of the Doctors companions that kill. Jack Harkness would probably have gotten the same reaction.

[Sunken Valley]

My thoughts on River and the Doctor: River is annoying. This is because she tries to steal the spotlight from the Doctor and suceeds. Also, this Doctor is less intelligent than previous versions (he uses more Buffy speak and less technobabble). And don't get me started on the INT penalties that are Amy and Rory. They're all stupid. Except River. Plus Matt Smith and Alex Kingston both say that River is Moffat's "creators pet". It's worrying if your leading lady knows she's a creator's pet.

In general though, a Sue can only survive and be successful if it is the only Sue in it's canon. 2 sues stretches the suspension of disbelief. The only times I have seen multiple sues in the same screen time is if A) the 2nd sue is an evil (or good) counterpart of the first or B) the 2nd sue is a parody sue or side character who we never see much of. River is neither. By the way Rose is not a sue. She's just a character with full development.

I said I would diagnose the Doctor Who's "problem" and I will do so. The show's being dumbed down. I have already talked about how the characters are much more stupid than they were in Rusty's run. Now I know what you are all thinking Rose, Donna and Martha were stupid too. But you see, they're stupid on purpose (plus the actress's are smart). The new companions are stupid and do the same if not more stupid things but they're portrayed as smart. Rose and co were never smart (Martha was and she did less stupid things. less mind you bunnyface!). The new companions are supposed to be clever and almost as good as the Doctor and equals to the Doctor. In Rusty's time the Doctor was the indisputable master. Here he's equal with his companions even though they're not as smart as him. And he's less smart than he was.

Here's another problem: it's contradicting itself in it's direction. We all agree that Moffat's series is darker. And that's cool. But it's also pandering to children. Those two DO NOT MIX unless you're Tim Burton or Harry Potter. And those are teens anyways

Now we look at the growing influence of pandering to children. All the Doctor Who stories of recent have been heavily involving children to try and "identify with them". Moffat seems to believe (and interviews show this too) that Doctor Who is for children. We've seen the number of "Dad and lad" endings to an ep (5 in two seasons and 23 stories) and other stories have increasingly relied on children and the bond between parent and child. That's one reason why "the big three" did so well. They were the only stories in the entire season 6 that did not rely or use children as main characters and plot points. True season five didn't do this much. But then Season five didn't have the best eps in the world either. Besides, Rusty might have been helping the Moff behind the scenes back then. Back to S6, people especially children don't want to see children on TV or film. They want to see adults, with the ocassional child side character. If they really want to see children, that's what CITV and CBBC are for. IT IS NOT WHAT THE MAINSTREAM IS FOR! Let's look at the top 20 highest grossing films of all time. I consider a child character to be a character of 15 or under (16-17 is a teen which is difficult and for a different type of people). How many of these have children as major characters and are not named Harry Potter? 2. One of which (the Lion King) is only 1/4 such a film because after the first 20 mins the plot goes to Scar for a while and after the first 40 mins Simba becomes a man. The second (Jurassic Park) is a disaster movie and only has children as mains so much as it has every other stereotype known to man (woman, teen, little boy, scientist, action man, black guy, pencil pusher who dies first). This is why Hugo failed at the box office. DON'T USE CHILDREN IN MAINSTREAM. It's just talking down to them which leads to the final point.

Doctor Who is taking less "risks". But Sunken Valley, how can you say that? Moffat's given us this complex plot and split the season in half and not giving us season 7 til autumn. True but the plots are becoming more generalistic and pandering to children and the stereotype of the Doctor as a mad scientist with a time machine, rather than the complex figure Rusty gave us. Complex plot yes, but every single complexity was something predicted well in advance. Astronaut is River? Most common theory. River is Amy and Rory's daughter? Most common theory. River and Mels were the same person? Predicted by many. Doctor using the Tessarectum? saw it before the ep was over but that was a shock. The Doctor actually being killed? ONLY A CHILD COULD EVER BE FOOLED! Which is what Moffat's pandering too. Moffat's previous eps were good because they took risks. Empty Child mentioned the war and the issue of contagious disease (and teen pregnancy). Blink was our fear of what we can't see and of statues. Girl in the Fireplace was...you tell me I didn't get it. The Beast Below was the concept of the Doctor being unable to win. The Eleventh hour was pure awesome. Later episodes were naff. The Angel's two parter couldn't keep up the threat and the 2nd ep focused on River's past stealing the show and a crack in time coming out of nowhere. The S5 finale was good, but it was hard to get and it took Thufir to explain it to me. If the creator can't explain it himself there's a problem. Plus ep 13 dragged and dragged and dragged and dragged and dragged and dragged. Moffat's writing in season 6? Focused on his complex plot which ended up pleasing few and pandering to children. The big three took risks. Doctor's Wife by using every trope which often shows up in Who and adding a new spin. Girl Who Waited by focusing on abandonment and love and loss (although I still say it's an idiot plot). And God Complex by discussing faith and having Amy lose faith in the Doctor forever. These new eps have mostly not taken risks.


that's me. Goodbye.

[turkishproverb]

There is nothing in any episode to imply that the Dalek knew River Song killed the Doctor nor that his death was a fixed point in time. All the Dalek needed to know was that she is one of two of the Doctors companions that kill. Jack Harkness would probably have gotten the same reaction.

Oh, I'm sure they run like the wind from Dorothy Gale McShane.

[Terry576]

There is nothing in any episode to imply that the Dalek knew River Song killed the Doctor nor that his death was a fixed point in time. All the Dalek needed to know was that she is one of two of the Doctors companions that kill. Jack Harkness would probably have gotten the same reaction.

Ah yes because in Journey's End where they kill Jack they show absolute fear of him.

Or in Series 1, right before Rose goes Bad Wolf, they look really scared of Jack.

River is the only character who the Daleks have asked for mercy from. Not even the Doctor gets that treatment, and he's killed them in the hundreds after offering a choice that he knows they will refuse. I'd be more afraid of the man who has multiple genocides under his belt than of the girl who travels with him sometimes who will kill people.

[Dr. Simon]

Continuing my plan to post what I think to be the highlights of every season of Doctor Who, old and new.

For each series I choose 2 or 3 of what I consider to be the best stories, and a selection of also-rans. "Stories" may comprise any number of actual episodes (somewhere between 1-14, typically 4 or 6). Older Who is nearly always episodic, with NuWho most episodes are self-contained. Feel free to expand on my brief comments, agree, disagree etc. This is, after all, purely subjective.

First Doctor

Spoiler

Show

Season One (1963-1964)
Season Two (1964-1965)
Season Three (1965-1966)
Season Four (1966-1967)

Second Doctor

Spoiler

Show

Season Four (1966-1967)
Season Five (1967-1968)
Season Six (1968-1969)

Third Doctor

Spoiler

Show

Season Seven (1970)
Season Eight (1971)
Season Nine (1972)
Season Ten (1972-1973)
Season Eleven (1973-1974)

Fourth Doctor

Spoiler

Show

Season Twelve (1974-1975)
Season Thirteen (1975-1976)

Another solid season overall, this one, although it's a shame to see the departure of Sarah-Jane. Leela is an admirable replacement and features in a lot of fun moments, but as a "noble savage" she lacks the everywoman qualities of Ms. Smith. Once again, cast and crew are firing on all cylinders for some memorable Who stories.

Season Fourteen (1976-1977)
Fourth Doctor/Sarah-Jane/Leela

The Robots of Death – I love this one for two reasons. One is the opulent design, of the robots, the crew quarters and the crew’s costume, at odds with the industrial nature of the sandminer but strangely appropriate nonetheless. For once, with the “future costume” design, different characters have their own styles rather than all being clad in identical foil outfits. The other is one effects shot which literally made me gasp. A slow pan in from the exterior of the (obviously model) sandminer, to a window where we see the crew in a composite shot, then through the window into the live action. I was not expecting that level of sophisticated compositing.

The Talons of Weng Chiang – maybe the Sherlock Holmesian costume is a bit much, and then there’s that “yellowing-up” again, but a classic all the same. The endearing double-act of Jago and Lightfoot. The delightfully sadistic Peking Homonculus. Leela using Janus thorns, leaping out of windows, throwing knives and trying to be ladylike. Great fun.

Honourable Mentions
The Masque of Mandragora – good location use of Portmeirion, some good effects shots where the overlaid mandragora energy interacts with the scenery, and an entertaining historical setting. The plot is a little obtuse, unfortunately.

The Deadly Assassin – famous for revealing more about Time Lord society, and for scaring Mary Whitehouse, although much of it is disappointingly bland and it demonstrates perfectly how the Doctor needs a companion as a dramatic device to enable exposition.

[Dienekes]

Ah yes because in Journey's End where they kill Jack they show absolute fear of him.

Or in Series 1, right before Rose goes Bad Wolf, they look really scared of Jack.

River is the only character who the Daleks have asked for mercy from. Not even the Doctor gets that treatment, and he's killed them in the hundreds after offering a choice that he knows they will refuse. I'd be more afraid of the man who has multiple genocides under his belt than of the girl who travels with him sometimes who will kill people.

This I can actually agree with. The Dalek shouldn't have begged for mercy. It was embarrassing for both participants of that scene.

[Weezer]

This I can actually agree with. The Dalek shouldn't have begged for mercy. It was embarrassing for both participants of that scene.

This is very true, Moffat totally screwed that one up, I agree. Daleks do not understand the concept of mercy, let alone beg for it.

[NikitaDarkstar]

The big three took risks. Doctor's Wife by using every trope which often shows up in Who and adding a new spin. Girl Who Waited by focusing on abandonment and love and loss (although I still say it's an idiot plot). And God Complex by discussing faith and having Amy lose faith in the Doctor forever. These new eps have mostly not taken risks.

And those three weren't written by Moffat. Of course he had some say in them since he's the head writer, but yhea.

And I do think you're right with the kids don't want to see kids being treated as major characters, they want to see adults doing cool stuff cause "that's what they wanna do when they grow up!". Sure showing some kids every now and then isn't a bad thing, but more along the lines of "generic kid who happens to meet the Doctor" seems to work better with kids because it makes kids "believe" (not literary, but kids do have good imagination and likes to use it) that they could possibly be that kid.

[Kato]

Oh, is it time for the annual River bashing again? Yay....
Well, I think I stated my opinion often enough (In short: Yes, she is a sue. Yes I can see why people have issues with her. Yes, the scene with the Dalek was bad. Yes, I still like her. No, she doesn't ruin the show for me and I want her to die a slow and gruesome death) so I won't say it again and again...

Same goes for most of Moffat's run... yes, it had weak episodes (and to be honest, I really can't think of Who as a kids show, not the recent run nor RTD's) but I just feel much more comfortable with Moffat's writing than with RTD's, which is personal preference on a certain level I guess.

(And concerning creator's pets I won't talk of... her)

[Weezer]

(And concerning creator's pets I won't talk of... her)

Yeah, if we're bringing up creator's pets, then River is not the worst one in Who by any stretch of the imagination...

[Terry576]

I'm watching Series 6 now (episode 3) and I cringed when the kid appeared in it.

We just went through a plot with a kid as a major character! I don't care about kids again after a two parter revolving around a child!

Then again the episode was pretty cringeworthy in general. (Rory is drowning and trusts only Amy to save him! The siren is really a doctor, a twist that wouldn't fool a small child!)

[Karoht]

So, is the term Whovian the correct one for this fandom?

So I started watching with a few episodes from Tenth and Elventh Doctors.
I rather like the both of them.

So far I am very much enjoying this show. It's becoming almost a weekly gig to go to my brother in laws house with my lady, we cook up something awesome, then turn around and watch two or three episodes, usually taken from whatever pops into the brothers head at the time.


The continuity. Difficult to follow? Or simple enough if I just sit down an actually watch episodes in order? IE-Series 9 onward

[Dienekes]

So, is the term Whovian the correct one for this fandom?

So I started watching with a few episodes from Tenth and Elventh Doctors.
I rather like the both of them.

So far I am very much enjoying this show. It's becoming almost a weekly gig to go to my brother in laws house with my lady, we cook up something awesome, then turn around and watch two or three episodes, usually taken from whatever pops into the brothers head at the time.


The continuity. Difficult to follow? Or simple enough if I just sit down an actually watch episodes in order? IE-Series 9 onward

10s stuff is not terrible difficult to follow. Basically all continuity means is that at the end of every episode there's a hint to the finale (Bad Wolf, Rose, ect).
11s first season starts off the same way, however by the second season continuity becomes fairly important as the threat of the Silence and River's backstory is developed. However it is self contained within 11's story (more or less, River is introduced for 10)

[Weezer]

I'm watching Series 6 now (episode 30 and I cringed when the kid appeared in it.

We just went through a plot with a kid as a major character! I don't care about kids again after a two parter revolving around a child!

Then again the episode was pretty cringeworthy in general. (Rory is drowning and trusts only Amy to save him! The siren is really a doctor, a twist that wouldn't fool a small child!)

To be fair that is probably the worst episode in series 5/6. The Curse of the Black Spot was quite bad on a number of levels.

[Sunken Valley]

To be fair that is probably the worst episode in series 5/6. The Curse of the Black Spot was quite bad on a number of levels.

Your quote is missing a pirate. So is mine.