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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    When compared to how all the other Doctor's I've seen do it, yeah, kinda.

    2: I refuse to be cheated!
    3: Don't cry, I'll be back baby.
    4: I'm going out with a smile, and a vague sounding sentence
    5: Well this feels different
    9: I'm gonna change now Rose. And you know what? I was bloody fantastic.
    10: *overlong 15 minute long death sequence* I don't wanna go
    11: *not actual transformation, but he thought he was going to die* GERONIMO!

    When compared to the others, yeah 10's death sequence seemed melodramatic, unnecessary, flow interrupting, and whiny.
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    I see nothing wrong with a character grieving for their own occurring death. And as the different doctors have different personalities, their approach to their "death" would also be different. 10's feelings about it, frustration, sadness, desiring to last longer to see more, do more, are very real ones, ones that people can emphasize with. It's also one of the few times we the doctor face something that he knows he cannot beat. All in all, I found it to be a fitting end for 10.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-09-08 at 07:16 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    I see nothing wrong with a character grieving for their own occurring death. And as the different doctors have different personalities, their approach to their "death" would also be different. 10's feelings about it, frustration, sadness, desiring to last longer to see more, do more, are very real ones, ones that people can emphasize with. It's also one of the few times we the doctor face something that he knows he cannot beat. All in all, I found it to be a fitting end for 10.
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    The thing is it gets back to the main problem I had with 10 as a Doctor, he was far, far too human. Time Lords don't fear their regenerations, they know they aren't dying, that it's still the same person. I was just watching "The Invasion of Time" and two Time Lords were casually discussing how they were getting old and it was about time for them to regenerate. There was no fear, no anger, just acceptance and a little bit of anticipation to have their body be less achy again.
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
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    The thing is it gets back to the main problem I had with 10 as a Doctor, he was far, far too human. Time Lords don't fear their regenerations, they know they aren't dying, that it's still the same person. I was just watching "The Invasion of Time" and two Time Lords were casually discussing how they were getting old and it was about time for them to regenerate. There was no fear, no anger, just acceptance and a little bit of anticipation to have their body be less achy again.
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    I figured someone would bring that point up. The thing is, given their personality changes between regenerations, it really is like death for that incarnation of the Doctor when he regenerates, otherwise they'd the same person, just with a different face. The fact that you can say that 10 was far too human (as opposed to the other incarnations of the Doctor) demonstrates this. Time lords are like the Trill from Star Trek, the symbiote lives on and remembers it's past lives, but the different hosts bring personality changes that mean that they are really different "people". 10 isn't the only one to realize this either. Why else would 9 have said "I was fantastic" if he didn't as well?
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-09-08 at 07:53 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    I see nothing wrong with a character grieving for their own occurring death. And as the different doctors have different personalities, their approach to their "death" would also be different. 10's feelings about it, frustration, sadness, desiring to last longer to see more, do more, are very real ones, ones that people can emphasize with. It's also one of the few times we the doctor face something that he knows he cannot beat. All in all, I found it to be a fitting end for 10.
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    Sure some grief, it's expected. 2, and 5 also had some sadness to them. But there was no awesome to balance it out, just 10 being dramatic. Where's the excitement for the unknown? The revel and glory and wit of being the Doctor? It doesn't matter how reasonable the reasons, watching a guy mope about and whine is annoying in real life and even more on screen. Knowing that the guy will just transform as has happened 10 times before, and yeah.

    Part of the problem is just how dull and melodramatic the whole thing was. Him appearing, looking grim, doing a random deed of good, nodding and disappearing. Repeat without variation for 15 minutes. Really. That was the most unnecessary sequence I have ever seen. We get how sad and final it is from 10's reaction to saving Wilf. After Wilf is saved, the plot just stops dead.

    Also, and a worse thing overall, it sets up the taking over of Who by Moffat and Smith on a terrible foot. Honestly now, to me it felt like Tennant and Davies writing their own feeling about the switch.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Sure some grief, it's expected. 2, and 5 also had some sadness to them. But there was no awesome to balance it out, just 10 being dramatic. Where's the excitement for the unknown? The revel and glory and wit of being the Doctor? It doesn't matter how reasonable the reasons, watching a guy mope about and whine is annoying in real life and even more on screen. Knowing that the guy will just transform as has happened 10 times before, and yeah.

    Part of the problem is just how dull and melodramatic the whole thing was. Him appearing, looking grim, doing a random deed of good, nodding and disappearing. Repeat without variation for 15 minutes. Really. That was the most unnecessary sequence I have ever seen. We get how sad and final it is from 10's reaction to saving Wilf. After Wilf is saved, the plot just stops dead.

    Also, and a worse thing overall, it sets up the taking over of Who by Moffat and Smith on a terrible foot. Honestly now, to me it felt like Tennant and Davies writing their own feeling about the switch.
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    Why should he feel excited about not being able to explore the unknown anymore? What glory is there in being fated to die, and to die for such a minor thing (as far as the scales the Doctor is used to fighting at are concerned)? And given how unlikely we are to see any of 9/10's companions again (other than as a Hologram on the TARDIS anyway), I wouldn't call getting closure there unnecessary at all.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    Why should he feel excited about not being able to explore the unknown anymore? What glory is there in being fated to die, and to die for such a minor thing (as far as the scales the Doctor is used to fighting at are concerned)? And given how unlikely we are to see any of 9/10's companions again (other than as a Hologram on the TARDIS anyway), I wouldn't call getting closure there unnecessary at all.
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    The excitement of what the next form will be. He did want to be a ginger. And the glory is dying for Wilf. Isn't that just as glorious to the Doctor as saving the planet? All life needs to be saved and all that jazz.

    As to the scenes unnecessaryness, we already had closure on the last finale. Rose had her other Doctor. Martha clearly had her purpose and Mikey walking with her and Jack implied that he final found a group to be a part of.

    What we actually got out of the sob spree was: Jack likes to bang men (that was important), Martha and Mikey were together for some reason (that comes out of nowhere and doesn't actually mean anything), Rose is still off being Rose in another universe (no change or anything really, just another scene), the only character who really needed some closure was Donna. With her we found out that she got a husband and is about to go on with her earlier boring life (so... nothing buggering changed, but now she's married).
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2011-09-08 at 08:37 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    The excitement of what the next form will be. He did want to be a ginger. And the glory is dying for Wilf. Isn't that just as glorious to the Doctor as saving the planet? All life needs to be saved and all that jazz.

    As to the scenes unnecessaryness, we already had closure on the last finale. Rose had her other Doctor. Martha clearly had her purpose and Mikey walking with her and Jack implied that he final found a group to be a part of.

    What we actually got out of the sob spree was: Jack likes to bang men (that was important), Martha and Mikey were together for some reason (that comes out of nowhere and doesn't actually mean anything), Rose is still off being Rose in another universe (no change or anything really, just another scene), the only character who really needed some closure was Donna. With her we found out that she got a husband and is about to go on with her earlier boring life (so... nothing buggering changed, but now she's married).
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    10 will never know what the next form will be, he'll be dead. Non-existent. No longer around to travel the universe, see amazing sights, ect. While saving Wilf is a worthy cause, what kills him is singularly unimpressive, not the Daleks, not the Time Lords returned, but a simple little box.

    As for the companions, it's not about learning something new, it's getting closure from a last goodbye, one that everyone (on both sides of the fourth wall) knows is the final one. As a nitpick, something did change for Donna, the Doctor gave her a nice wedding present. Money isn't everything, but it's certainly not bad.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    I'm not sure if it's been established what it really means for a doctor to regenerate, whether they just change or if in fact it's an actual death for them and it's just that their memories and knowledge get passed onto a new being.

    If the latter I would understand if the doctor actually goes through an existential crisis at each regeneration. The doctor might live on, but for them personally it's the absolute end each time.

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    I do think that the 10th Doctor's end was a bit too melodramatic though. It was a really stupid death for one thing and it felt as though they were giving 10 a special treatment. I also find the last line jarring given how as far as I can tell David Tennant chose to leave the role.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahkaivah View Post
    I'm not sure if it's been established what it really means for a doctor to regenerate, whether they just change or if in fact it's an actual death for them and it's just that their memories and knowledge get passed onto a new being.

    If the latter I would understand if the doctor actually goes through an existential crisis at each regeneration. The doctor might live on, but for them personally it's the absolute end each time.
    Seems pretty established to me, the Doctor's personality, likes, style, tics... everything except very basic personality traits changes.

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    I do think that the 10th Doctor's end was a bit too melodramatic though. It was a really stupid death for one thing and it felt as though they were giving 10 a special treatment. I also find the last line jarring given how as far as I can tell David Tennant chose to leave the role.
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    The fact that it was a "stupid" death was kinda the point, hence the prophecy and Ood Sigma's involvement. It shows the inevitably of his death. He can survive the Time Lord's gambit to return and everything else, but in the end...
    *knock, knock, knock, knock*

    Also, why in the world would Tennant's reasons for leaving having anything to do with 10's final words? He's a actor, acting as a character who is not him.
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    10 will never know what the next form will be, he'll be dead. Non-existent. No longer around to travel the universe, see amazing sights, ect. While saving Wilf is a worthy cause, what kills him is singularly unimpressive, not the Daleks, not the Time Lords returned, but a simple little box.

    As for the companions, it's not about learning something new, it's getting closure from a last goodbye, one that everyone (on both sides of the fourth wall) knows is the final one. As a nitpick, something did change for Donna, the Doctor gave her a nice wedding present. Money isn't everything, but it's certainly not bad.
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    Of course 10 will never know, because it's 11 now. The Doctor will know. He has all his memories, all his experiences.

    How many last goodbyes did we need? For Rose for instance I had hoped we had said our last goodbye 20 goodbyes ago. She got sent to another universe and stuck there that seemed fairly permanent, twice (thrice? I lost count). Did the audience even need to say last goodbyes to Mickey and Martha? Well from that perspective I guess it makes sense they got them both out of the way in one go.

    I did forget about Donna's money though. That's a nice touch, and considering Donna was the character who needed closure, well, that's fine. It even makes sense in the narrative flow since Wilf played an important part in the story.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Of course 10 will never know, because it's 11 now. The Doctor will know. He has all his memories, all his experiences.

    How many last goodbyes did we need? For Rose for instance I had hoped we had said our last goodbye 20 goodbyes ago. She got sent to another universe and stuck there that seemed fairly permanent, twice (thrice? I lost count). Did the audience even need to say last goodbyes to Mickey and Martha? Well from that perspective I guess it makes sense they got them both out of the way in one go.

    I did forget about Donna's money though. That's a nice touch, and considering Donna was the character who needed closure, well, that's fine. It even makes sense in the narrative flow since Wilf played an important part in the story.
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    You say that "The doctor will know" like it's some form of consolation. It still doesn't give 10 a reason to be excited about it. 10 will still be no more.

    As for Rose, it wasn't a goodbye for her sake, that was 10 seeing her one last time for himself. Much like 10 visiting the great-granddaughter of Joan Redfern (the woman from the Family of Blood two-parter) was for him. It was Sarah and Luke, Martha and Mickey, Donna and her family, and Jack that were the goodbyes. He also gave each of them something, saving Luke, Martha, and Mickeys' lives, giving Donna the Lottery ticket, and setting up Jack (admittedly, Jack's gift was a bit less important than of the others, but he doesn't really need his life saved).

    Still, it looks like we're not going to see eye to eye on this, which is fine. Either the ending worked for you or it didn't. It worked for me, but I can't speak for anyone else.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-09-08 at 09:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    You say that "The doctor will know" like it's some form of consolation. It still doesn't give 10 a reason to be excited about it. 10 will still be no more.

    As for Rose, it wasn't a goodbye for her sake, that was 10 seeing her one last time for himself. Much like 10 visiting the great-granddaughter of Joan Redfern (the woman from the Family of Blood two-parter) was for him. It was Sarah and Luke, Martha and Mickey, Donna and her family, and Jack that were the goodbyes. He also gave each of them something, saving Luke, Martha, and Mickeys' lives, giving Donna the Lottery ticket, and setting up Jack (admittedly, Jack's gift was a bit less important than of the others, but he doesn't really need his life saved).

    Still, it looks like we're not going to see eye to eye on this, which is fine. Either the ending worked for you or it didn't. It worked for me, but I can't speak for anyone else.
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    I was going to respond to all of your posts, then I realized Dienekes summed up my position very well so it would be repetitive to say the same thing over again. You and I got very different things from his Farewell which is perfectly fine, glad it worked for you.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    You say that "The doctor will know" like it's some form of consolation. It still doesn't give 10 a reason to be excited about it. 10 will still be no more.

    As for Rose, it wasn't a goodbye for her sake, that was 10 seeing her one last time for himself. Much like 10 visiting the great-granddaughter of Joan Redfern (the woman from the Family of Blood two-parter) was for him. It was Sarah and Luke, Martha and Mickey, Donna and her family, and Jack that were the goodbyes. He also gave each of them something, saving Luke, Martha, and Mickeys' lives, giving Donna the Lottery ticket, and setting up Jack (admittedly, Jack's gift was a bit less important than of the others, but he doesn't really need his life saved).

    Still, it looks like we're not going to see eye to eye on this, which is fine. Either the ending worked for you or it didn't. It worked for me, but I can't speak for anyone else.
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    I'll agree that the whole set up was for 10's sake. But from a story perspective it was a complete waste of time. People don't get to say their goodbyes in life, that's life. Sure you can try to fix that in fiction, but only so long as it works in the narrative of the story. That didn't happen. The story ended, and suddenly the longest most boring denouement I have ever seen on a tv show happened.

    Now if it worked for you, awesome. And I agree I think we are at an impasse. It's been fun debating with you.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Just when you might think it's safe to open a spoiler, Koorli, it's still not! Still talking about the end of The End of Time.

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    As I said, I was OK with the idea but I felt it dragged on a bit. Specifically I feel they could have cut out the bits of the companions actually seeing the Doctor and exchanging significant looks. The Doctor's doing this for himself, really, he doesn't need them to see him. I would like it much better if in each case he did his little good deed and then left the ex-companions wondering who just did that and then hearing the dematerialising TARDIS.
    Well, except Jack. His only really worked if he saw the Doctor. And maybe Rose. And Wilf and Sylvia obviously he stops to talk to.

    But yeah. I don't know exactly how long it was, but it should have been shorter, and you'd lose a fair bit of time off it by cutting the significant looks.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Speaking of End of Time:

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    Is it canon or fanon that the Doctor revisited all his old companions, even classic Who ones? I can never remember. As for regeneration, keep in mind that 10 already had to deal with the same issues that regeneration has in Family of Blood. John Smith has to "die" even though he's still the same person (for the most part) maybe this had to do with why he viewed his regeneration in such a way as to imply death.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Urgh... I won't comment on the general discussion about all the finales. I'll say I'll agree with Thufir on most of the points and I don't feel like nitpicking any of them. (Okay, I would, some, but I don't want to fuel more discussions on that)
    I'm still a massive opposer of the certain moment in S3 finale (wel all know which one) The sheer stupidness of it aside (Yeah, as The Master said 'What?!') I just hate this view on the Doctor. Heck, if you argue he was not setup as some SantaClaus/Tinkerbell/Jesus there you might as well argue Azlan is not Jesus either. And I really rather have my religion staying out of Who as far as possible.

    As for S4.5 and later (curly protect)
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    I'm not as happy with it. I'd not rage on it as much as Friv did, mostly because I thought multiple Saxons - as stupid as they were - were kind of funny as well.
    But yeah, I didn't like Ten's death either.
    a) it felt forced. It felt so needlessly complicated elaborated to have him die there it was... it was almost ridiculous, which ruined the fact it was supposed to be sad.
    b) The goodbyes dragged on too long. For my taste. I guess there were a lot of people to say goodbye to but I don't think any previous Doctor did anything like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Martha and Mikey were together for some reason (that comes out of nowhere and doesn't actually mean anything)
    Maybe it means RTD doesn't support interracial relationships *cough*Okay, no, not really, but why these two? It really gives off a weird picture in some way.
    c) As people mentioned, I don't like how Ten acts so different from e.g. 9 or other Doctors. Yes, he has another personality, then let's just say I don't like that kind of personality. It was just done to please the fanbase who loved Ten, or that's how it felt to me.



    Since I'm spoilering anyway... I think I've said often enough I like Moffat's run and I liked the S5 finale. I don't mind the wackyness or anything, though I guess he really could have just excluded the Dalek in BB and River making it beg for mercy... jep, I HATED hated (not THAT bad) that to be honest. But it was a minor setback and the last minutes got me so pumped up like no other finale I can recall.

    As for AGMGTW... I could complain about the 'highest rise, deepest fall' bit but... meh, people exaggerate sometimes. Really, it wasn't that bad to me, it might not have been true but it helped set the mood.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Seems pretty established to me, the Doctor's personality, likes, style, tics... everything except very basic personality traits changes.
    None of which really establishes the Doctor's conscious state.



    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    The fact that it was a "stupid" death was kinda the point, hence the prophecy and Ood Sigma's involvement. It shows the inevitably of his death. He can survive the Time Lord's gambit to return and everything else, but in the end...
    *knock, knock, knock, knock*
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    An inevitable death? Cool (I did like the four knocks thing). A simple death? Poetic. An avoidable death? Tragic.

    But a stupid death? That's just stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    Also, why in the world would Tennant's reasons for leaving having anything to do with 10's final words?
    Problem is people tend to read in to these kind of things.
    Last edited by Jahkaivah; 2011-09-09 at 11:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Seeing as we're discussing it, End of Time in 5 seconds
    "Three blokes walk into a pub. One of them is a little bit stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
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    1. Pick a random character
    2. State that person is The Rani
    3. goto 1

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Speaking of End of Time:

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    Is it canon or fanon that the Doctor revisited all his old companions, even classic Who ones? I can never remember.
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    I believe there's a line in the aforementioned episode of SJA which implies he did, but it could be taken as simply that he looked back and remembered them all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    Seeing as we're discussing it, End of Time in 5 seconds
    Well, I'm amused, and that just led me onto several other Doctor Who youtube videos, including this one:

    Doctor Who - 45 years in 45 seconds.
    "'But there's still such a lot to be done...'
    YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Alright, since I set this chain of quote-arguments off, the least I can do is come back to respond to a couple of points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    I figured someone would bring that point up. The thing is, given their personality changes between regenerations, it really is like death for that incarnation of the Doctor when he regenerates, otherwise they'd the same person, just with a different face. The fact that you can say that 10 was far too human (as opposed to the other incarnations of the Doctor) demonstrates this. Time lords are like the Trill from Star Trek, the symbiote lives on and remembers it's past lives, but the different hosts bring personality changes that mean that they are really different "people". 10 isn't the only one to realize this either. Why else would 9 have said "I was fantastic" if he didn't as well?
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    Every indication, except for that one episode, has always been that the Doctor considers himself to be the same essential person from incarnation to incarnation. He talks about the things that he did in the past as things that he did, not that other people did. When 10 meets Sarah Jane again, she is a friend of his, not a friend of someone else. In the Time Crash special, he talks about how his early incarnations tried to be old, the way that young people do.

    Each incarnation is him reinventing himself, but it is symbolic of the way that people change as they get older. My sense of humour and response to situations is way different than it was ten years ago.

    More importantly, it's not merely that he is upset at dying. He gets angry and whiny to a degree and in a way that he never has before or since when facing death. He behaves, not like a man who is going to die, but like a child who is being denied a toy, and it is jarring and unpleasant to watch. If the Doctor had behaved normally, done a shorter version of his helping companions out, and then we'd gotten that last, "I don't want to go" out of nowhere from a stoic or seemingly okay guy, it would have been a potent and poignant moment. Instead, it was another layer of melodrama on top of several layers of melodrama.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
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    Also, why in the world would Tennant's reasons for leaving having anything to do with 10's final words? He's a actor, acting as a character who is not him.
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    By making the last fifteen minutes of the series an extended description of 10's desire to remain a Time Lord, and demonstrating that he is being forced into a state of being that he does not want to be, the goal is to develop sympathy with his desire not to change. If that goal is successful, a very strong side effect of it is going to be an audience that does not want him to change, and who will automatically be pre-disposed to dislike the new series for "forcing changes" on the old series. It's not necessarily deliberate, but he really shouldn't have done something to exacerbate a problem that already existed.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Time to respond!

    We all seem to be in agreement regarding Season one and two. However, I will say that without Fear Her, we would never had Blink or Midnight. Furthermore, Fear Her would originally have been a story written by Stephen Fry which would have been nothing like Fear Her. Except Stephen at the last minute revealed was too busy with QI. So Rusty called in some favours with the guy who did life on mars.

    Season 3
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    Here is my alternative take on JesusDoctor. I say what should have happened is the Doctor just became normal and glowed, then the Master pointed the lazer screwdriver at him, which the Doctor technobabbled about "releasing the energy in a concentrated force" to blow up the lazer. Then as normal. Fun Fact!: in 2008, a congregation of ministers met up to discuss whether the Doctor was the modern day Christ. That's all I'm saying about that.

    With regards to the Human Nature two parter, I do not see it as bad, just low quality. I found it quite boring with them all sitting around in a house talking, similar too what happened in Father's Day. This ep put some of my firends off Doctor Who forever. But it wasn't bad enough that I go the other way and praise like I do Love and Monsters. Or that I remove it from canon like that pirate ep. I also think it would have been better if it had no monsters in it. Because that's only happened twice since Hartnell.

    Oh and Captain Jack. In Torchwood he killed a kid. That's wrong. Plus he was lot more interesting as a bisexual. Also just to say, he was in Good man goes to War now. Because the pirate has been removed from canon, Jack takes his place.


    Season 4
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    You seem to be dismissing this episode for stuff which you all let slide in eps like Last of the Timelords (Jesus Doctor), Big Bang (The Stone Dalek, the Doctor's escape) and Day of the moon (all of it!). I'm going to wait for Curly before delivering the final verdict. I will say that it was obvious the planets were used as fuel for a superweapon because why else would they take the planets? Plus, there are all these stories of “When the planets are aligned”. Curly will probably make a joke about Hercules someway along the line.


    End of Time
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    Wow, good thing Moffat is only doing three seasons instead of four. The hate is unbelievable. Just to note Friv: The woman is the Doctor’s Mum. Rusty left it ambiguous but that’s what it is. Saying goodbye to the companions was a good idea. It gave everyone a chance to wave goodbye to them. Plus they did pair the MtM’s together (joke!). The Deus ex I was referring to as forgettable was the gun, although Rassilon’s hand waving works to. Rassilon was meant to be a cartoon supervillain. This was to symbolise the timelord decline in that, even with Davros on the show, his plan was the most cartoonish and ridiculous in Nu Who. And it is canon that the Doctor went to see Jo Grant according to SJA. Everything else is fanon.


    Season Moffat

    I’m gonna unspoil this. First off, the crack did steal the scene and make the entire second part of the angels focus on it. Otherwise, Thufir, you rolled a natural 20 on your Diplomacy check. Big Bang was good. I am promoting it’s rating to 8/10. Although I will say that the “not continuity error” was still pointless as it contributed nothing (and I called it!). However, Moffat is playing a dangerous game. Writing an overarching plot is like borrowing money from a bank. You borrow the money to make the story, but then you have to pay it back to please the bank (fans). You also have to pay extra as interest (in the shape of good characterisation, emotional impact and humour). Rusty borrowed his money and always paid it back on time (although in his later years he forgot about some of the payments). JK Rowling borrowed a gigantic amount of money and then paid it back in little bits and then borrowed some more, but she paid it back in the end. Rich Burlew is currently paying all of the interest first and then pays the main amount back in big gulps. Moffat, with the big bang, delayed his payment. This means that when he pays back on future occasions, he’ll have to pay extra interest. So far he has been missing payments (Day of the Moon) or delaying his payment even further (Let’s kill Moffat). In fact I’ll go as far as saying that Day of the Moon is the 2nd worst episode in the Moffat Regime (after Silurians, Pirate ep isn’t canon). Discuss.

    I also make an exception for the Sontaran Nurse in Good Man Goes to War. He was cool. However, I can name two occasions where the Doctor has done it (rising and falling) better than Goodman. They are:

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    Rising Higher: Beating his people again with no bloodshed except his own.

    Falling Further: The Beast Below where he almost changed his name if Amy hadn’t worked it out.


    I wish more people would comment on this section (the half finale).

    I am seriously considering explaining why Day of the Moon is bad.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    My thoughts on "A Good Man Goes to War"

    Let me start by saying it was a good episode. We got guest characters (The Doctor's Army) that were likable and fun, and if you didn't like them, they didn't do all that much. It followed up on themes that had been visited several times throughout the season. We got the Doctor being Clever, Rory being Badass, Amy didn't do all that much, but you can't have everything. Maybe the Reveal was predictable, but primarily in a meta- "This would make a good plot point" way, rather than an In-Universe way, so that's okay, and besides, they didn't exactly dance around saying "Ooh, you didn't see that coming, didja, look how clever we are".

    It was a good episode, or it would have been, except that somebody decided it would be a good idea to give it the tagline "The doctor will rise higher, and then fall farther, than he ever has before". That Tagline describes an entierly different episode, one in which the Doctor, in his desire to protect his friends, crosses a line and does something terrible. Perhaps an episode where the Doctor mistakenly directs his wrath against innocents, or an episode where he does whatever is necessary to Rescue Amy despite dire consequences.
    Any of those would have been good Finales, but that's not what we got. Instead we get a perfectly serviceable finale. Apparently, Demons run when a good man goes to war because it means he finally gets out his rolladex and makes a few calls rather than charging in without a plan and trying to fix everything on his own, which, while effective, hardly calls for an ominous poem.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahkaivah View Post
    Problem is people tend to read in to these kind of things.
    Which is the fault of those people. Actors act, it's the name of the job, if someone doesn't understand that, I don't know how much clearer it can be.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    However, I will say that without Fear Her, we would never had Blink or Midnight.
    How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Oh and Captain Jack. In Torchwood he killed a kid. That's wrong. Plus he was lot more interesting as a bisexual.
    He's still bisexual. Well, more omnisexual, but the point is his sexuality hasn't changed.

    Season 4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    You seem to be dismissing this episode for stuff which you all let slide in eps like Last of the Timelords (Jesus Doctor), Big Bang (The Stone Dalek, the Doctor's escape) and Day of the moon (all of it!).
    I believe I already expressed fairly well why I'm fine with the Doctor's escape and the stone Dalek in Big Bang, and in what way did anyone let Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor slide? You know, given we all pretty much dubbed it the worst thing in Doctor Who ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    I will say that it was obvious the planets were used as fuel for a superweapon because why else would they take the planets?
    We didn't know. We didn't know the planets were being stolen until in the episode and then we continued watching, limiting the amount of speculation possible.
    Hell, for all we knew, maybe an Isolus got lonely and drew pictures of all those planets. I'm sure there could be other possible explanations.


    End of Time
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    The woman is the Doctor’s Mum. Rusty left it ambiguous but that’s what it is.
    Yeah, that I personally rule out of canon since it was never stated in-episode and the fan theories were much more interesting.


    Season Moffat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    First off, the crack did steal the scene and make the entire second part of the angels focus on it.
    Well, yes, but that's because it was both an element of the overarching plot and the solution to the dilemma they were in for that particular episode. Being an important element of the story does not equal stealing the scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Otherwise, Thufir, you rolled a natural 20 on your Diplomacy check. Big Bang was good. I am promoting it’s rating to 8/10.
    Wow. I really didn't expect to alter your position, merely justify my own. Cool! (Like a bow-tie or a fez)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    In fact I’ll go as far as saying that Day of the Moon is the 2nd worst episode in the Moffat Regime (after Silurians, Pirate ep isn’t canon). Discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    OK OK OK. Vaguely curious, in what sequence would people rate the episodes of the current series thus far? And why? Personally, I think mine would be:

    4 (Gaiman. 'nuff said)
    7 (Rory. 'nuff said)
    6 (Doctor x2 makes for enough brilliance to just beat the next one, maybe)
    2 (Not entirely sure, might swap this and 6 around depending on how I feel. Dark and confusing and a bit epic)
    1 (Goes with 2, but the setup isn't on the same level as the resolution)
    5 (Same as for 1, but more so)
    3 (Doesn't hold up to critical scrutiny)
    Combine with the fact I feel series 6 has been of generally higher quality than 5 was (Much as I loved it), and yeah, massive disagreement there.
    ...give me a little while I might try to produce my personal ranking of all episodes so far in the Moffat era. I make no promises though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    However, I can name two occasions where the Doctor has done it (rising and falling) better than Goodman. They are:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Rising Higher: Beating his people again with no bloodshed except his own.

    Falling Further: The Beast Below where he almost changed his name if Amy hadn’t worked it out.
    Spoiler
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    Rising higher: Still doesn't apply I think because he was still being compelled do doom his own species to the hell of the Time War and whatever he did to end it.

    Falling further: I agree, didn't I mention that in my post? I meant to. But the thing is, that didn't happen. If Amy hadn't worked things out in time to stop him, then yes, that would be the Doctor's greatest fall, but she did, so it wasn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    I am seriously considering explaining why Day of the Moon is bad.
    Feel free, I'm curious. Be prepared for an extensive rebuttal though.
    Last edited by Thufir; 2011-09-10 at 09:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    It was a good episode, or it would have been, except that somebody decided it would be a good idea to give it the tagline "The doctor will rise higher, and then fall farther, than he ever has before". That Tagline describes an entierly different episode, one in which the Doctor, in his desire to protect his friends, crosses a line and does something terrible. Perhaps an episode where the Doctor mistakenly directs his wrath against innocents, or an episode where he does whatever is necessary to Rescue Amy despite dire consequences.
    Any of those would have been good Finales, but that's not what we got. Instead we get a perfectly serviceable finale. Apparently, Demons run when a good man goes to war because it means he finally gets out his rolladex and makes a few calls rather than charging in without a plan and trying to fix everything on his own, which, while effective, hardly calls for an ominous poem.
    Agreed. I find it hard to call the Doctor defeating what is mostly a bunch of normal human soldiers his greatest rise, especially when he's given the time and freedom to gather together an army and make a plan. I think most of the past finales or the End of Time serve better as high points, or heck, to use another episode from the same season, Day of the Moon. And really, how far did he fall? Sure the bad guys got away with Melody, but they all already know she grows up and turns out alright. Plus the episode ends with the Doctor saying he knows where to find her and runs off to do so. Speaking of that, what happened there? He just turns up at the beginning of Let's Kill Hitler as if he's doesn't have anything important to do.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    He's still bisexual. Well, more omnisexual, but the point is his sexuality hasn't changed.
    Maybe it hasn't changed, but they're almost exclusively emphasizing one side over the other in the latest season of Torchwood, so much that it's a little jarring to watch.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Agreed. I find it hard to call the Doctor defeating what is mostly a bunch of normal human soldiers his greatest rise
    That's because that wasn't the great rise. The great rise was rescuing Amy's baby, and the fall was realising she was a Flesh replica.

    I do think we should maybe have seen more of the Doctor searching for the baby, though--the fact that whole plotline got resolved in the very next episode is a bit jarring in retrospect, even including the long gap between the episodes.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    That's because that wasn't the great rise. The great rise was rescuing Amy's baby, and the fall was realising she was a Flesh replica.
    From a bunch of mostly normal human soldiers, which is like taking candy from a baby for a guy who tangles with Daleks and the like. Why is this a greater rise than freeing humanity from control of the Silent? That saves even more lives from a more dangerous enemy, that seems like a bigger accomplishment to me.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-09-10 at 01:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Which is the fault of those people. Actors act, it's the name of the job, if someone doesn't understand that, I don't know how much clearer it can be.
    Spoilered just in case, since it's still talking about the "Year of Specials."
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    And if the actors (and the writers and the directors et al.) are good at their jobs, then they create sympathetic feelings in the audience. It's not rational that this sympathy should then transfer from the character to the actor; but it's also not something most people can avoid doing, even if unconsciously. It's a pretty elementary bit of human psychology; so the extremely extended closing of "End of Time" indicates either extraordinary ignorance or truly breathtaking cynicism (not to mention unprofessionalism) on the part of the previous production team.
    Last edited by Philistine; 2011-09-10 at 07:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    From a bunch of mostly normal human soldiers, which is like taking candy from a baby for a guy who tangles with Daleks and the like. Why is this a greater rise than freeing humanity from control of the Silent? That saves even more lives from a more dangerous enemy, that seems like a bigger accomplishment to me.
    Did you miss my point to Sunken Valley about this? It doesn't qualify as the Doctor's greatest rise by his standards because it required bloodshed. Regardless of how technical his pacifism may be, or how it may in fact be pacificism, regardless of how many species he may have genocided, he doesn't like killing people. As such, most of his victories aren't really in the running for his greatest rise. Demons Run is, as would probably be the "Everybody lives" moment in The Doctor Dances.
    Also, as has been noted, he changed his normal approach of making things up as he goes, instead called in a few favours and actually made a plan, and everything fell into place perfectly. Could be considered something of a rise from his usual haphazard means of operating.
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