Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Raddish]

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I thought he did believe; he had a deep faith in the idea of surrender and submission as a way of survival. He kept clinging to that all throughout the episode.

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Yeah I figure thats why his room contained the Angels, a creature that you cant surrender, although there are a lot of monsters in the universe like that it may be the only one he know enough about or something. Like with something like the Daleks, while they are not really in teh game for prisinors everyone who sees them seems to believe that they can surrender to them or be friends. Admittedly they all tended to be niave humans but yeah...

[Thufir]

I think he means religious. Every companion (except maybe Martha I forget) has had a sentence or even an episode implying that they are not religious, though I don't think they come out and say it very often.

Oh, right. That makes more sense, but 'faithful' was an odd way of putting it, given the common enough references to the Doctor's "faithful companion".
Although, I don't recall previous companions specifically mentioning a lack of religious belief. Remind me?

Why was the rat guy in there in the first place? Glitches I understand, but why does he have a fear room if he does not believe?

I thought he did believe; he had a deep faith in the idea of surrender and submission as a way of survival. He kept clinging to that all throughout the episode.

This. The Doctor even pointed it out himself.

Genius Curly! Praise her. Praise her. Praise her. Praise her.

Yes. Worship the Goddess and you shall be blessed with taste, discernment, and analysis!

[Mauve Shirt]

That was something.

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I was very unhappy at the end. Amy and Rory have been my favorite companions of New Who. But they can't disappear forever, because we still have to know what's up with the Doctor's death.
I guess it's time for some of those River shenanigans.

[Sunken Valley]

Good News everyone! Matt Smith, Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill will be main characters in season 7! Unfortunately, nothing for Alex Kingston. Even Better news everyone! Moffat will not be making stupidly complex storylines in season 7. He only intended to do it the once (although he does say that the complex eps get the best AI, which is bull). Not so good news. Doctor 12 will be coming in 2014. But at least that expired cheese Moffat will be off the shelves. Yaaay!

[thegurullamen]

Oh, right. That makes more sense, but 'faithful' was an odd way of putting it, given the common enough references to the Doctor's "faithful companion".

My mistake. I did mean religious.

And am I the only one who thinks that the coward guy looked more like a sheep than a mole or rat?

[Dienekes]

Oh, right. That makes more sense, but 'faithful' was an odd way of putting it, given the common enough references to the Doctor's "faithful companion".
Although, I don't recall previous companions specifically mentioning a lack of religious belief. Remind me?

Mind you, I don't think they ever blatantly say "I'm an atheist!" ever but there are a few lines here and there that suggest lack of (Judeo-Christian mostly) belief. Off the top of my head.

Rose: Doctor there is no such thing as the Devil right?
Martha: Umm, ok don't remember for her, there might not have been one.
Donna: I'm in a church
-Wilf: What is she doing in a church?
Amy: I believe in the Doctor
Rory: I apparently believe in nothing.

[Eldan]

Pretty good, this one. Didn't think it was scary, but it was very atmospheric. Which is similar, but not the same. For some reason, the first half or so made me constantly giggle, though I can't really say why. Something was just absurdly funny about the whole thing.

[Aidan305]

Not so good news. Doctor 12 will be coming in 2014.

Link please? We've known about the season 7 confirmation for some time. Haven't heard anything about this though.

[Androgeus]

Link please? We've known about the season 7 confirmation for some time. Haven't heard anything about this though.

Best I could find.

[Weezer]

Best I could find.

That's not conclusive at all, it just means he has the possibility of not taking the two year option and leaving after only the three required years. I kind of doubt that Moffat, being Moffat, would release anything solid about the Doctor changing, just cause of how in love he is with screwing with fans (proof of that is the end of the most recent episode).

[Sunken Valley]

No what I meant was that Doctor 12 does his first regular series in 2014. Matt Smith will regenerate in 2013, based on recurring regeneration patterns (series occurring at reduced production schedule, Doctor brooding Season 4 style, big event 50th anniversary coming up and writers like trilogies). But Doctor 12 will only have one scene where he does nothing.

[factotum]

It's possible, certainly--four years (albeit only with 3 seasons of shows in them) is a reasonable run for a Doctor. However, whatever keeps Matt Smith's Doctor going after he dies at the end of this season presumably has to be some sort of major epiphany, so I'd be surprised if he's brooding all the way through 2012 and 2013.

[Dr. Simon]

Doctor's room - note that there was the sound of the Cloister Bell.

Dunno what that signifies, although in Nu-Who it tends to prefigure one particular race of opponents....

[Eakin]

Just watched the last two eps back to back. Girl was the stronger of the two, I thought. I loved the portal vibe of the first half of the episode. I do wonder if that was intentional on the writer's part or just a serendipitous bonus.

Re the ending

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That's probably the most horrible thing we've ever seen the Doctor do. It was really jarring to see him lie to someone to manipulate them with false hope, with the intention to betray them once they were no longer of use to him. Poor old!Amy

As for God Complex

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Didn't really do much for me TBH. I wish we'd seen what was in room 11 (nice touch, that) but I'm sure it's the doctor's dark side. NuWho does love the self loathing. I'm honestly kinda sick of the doctor being called out on being "bathed in the blood of the innocent" and it being treated as a major thing every time. Yes, he's seen and even been part of horrible things but it's just too big a reach for the audience to believe hes actually evil. The writers just don't want him to go there onscreen and until they do it'll just never jive for me.

Psyched for next week, and delighted to have an excuse to go back and rewatch the Craig episode from last year, I remember it as being hilarious

[Kato]

*yawn* Back from vacation... much less discussion than I anticipated...
First of, on the latest episode... Maybe it doesn't need spoilers but meh.

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I rather liked it. It wasn't really AWESOME as Girl who waited was (in it's depressing aspect) but it was decent and there's no way I'm buying that's the goodbye the Ponds get. No eff-ing way! But Amy getting talked out of her childhood complexes was nice.
Also, looking forward to next week. After the last three episodes something fun would be nice, really...

unimportant notes: Damn, I knew I recognized that mole... something guy. I guess such a good actor got a slightly unimportant role to play Too bad. And Rory is so awesome he's not scared of anything anymore. Also, he doesn't believe in stuff. Also, of course the thing the Doctor saw was Rory, what else?
Nah, I'm gonna agree with most people.

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The Doctor himself, or some incarnation of his Dark side. Just hope it's not River though I guess it might count as that.

Oh, least I forget it... something that really rubbed me the wrong way at the end? 'Where is he going.' - 'Top save us.' Uuurgh... Felt like Jesus-Doctor again, and that after she was cleansed of her childish faith in him?

[QUOTE=Sunken Valley;11839263][on Day of the Moon]
First off there is the gap between astronaut and this. [...] Here it was bad. We would have liked to have seen what happened after Amy shot the astronaut, what happened when the Silent swarmed River and Rory and why it took them three months to get back together. In the same vein we would have liked to have seen what Amy and Rory said to River when she told them her identity. We did not. This is poor writing. At least Davies answered his cliffhangers. [/spoiler]
I guess I should go back to watch DotM but when did River tell them her identity then?
I'm pretty sure the Doctor said they split up to gather information. I guess three months is quite a while but that's how things are. Does it really matter how long it took them?
I guess he could have been more explicit on how they escaped the Silents but not picking up where he left off but explaining later is not per se poor writing but up to taste. Many people think it worked for them, me included. Just continuing there is so over-used and not entirely necessary.

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Then there is the 3 months. Why is this needed? Why do they have to be on the run again? Why do they have to fake their deaths? Why was the Doctor locked up? And how come he knows so much about the Silent? Will we know any of this information? Big fat No.

See above. They needed a secure room. One where they could be sure noone was listening, absolutely sure. They needed to get in there without the Silent suspecting stuff as good as possible. I'm pretty sure the Doctor explained this once everyone was in there.
How do you get information? By gathering it. Would you have liked another episode of them running around gathering input? Would it be necessary? Should they have made another episode in season three for Martha travelling the earth? Or how about a season? More than enough time to cover.

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The hints towards the girls identity were painfully obvious and were the ones that spoiled River's identity.

Hinting at stuff is not a bad thing. Sorry if it spoiled it for you, there were still people who take 'regenerating girl' not as a proof it is River or Ponds' child or anything.

[spoiler]Then there is the Silent kidnapping Amy. Why did they need to kidnap a ganger? I don't know, although we might know when the Silent return.]/spoiler]
Maybe they didn't know she was a ganger. Maybe to distract the Doctor from the possibility she might be fake by pretending she was important. Maybe something I can't come up with. Just because we haven't been told yet doesn't mean there's not something behind it. Or would you rather have a painfully obvious hint?

[The Extinguisher]

No what I meant was that Doctor 12 does his first regular series in 2014. Matt Smith will regenerate in 2013, based on recurring regeneration patterns (series occurring at reduced production schedule, Doctor brooding Season 4 style, big event 50th anniversary coming up and writers like trilogies). But Doctor 12 will only have one scene where he does nothing.

What regeneration patterns?
We've had Doctors last up to 7 years (Tom Baker) and Doctors who lasted a single movie (Paul McGann).

Matt Smith could be doing this for a lot longer still.

[A Weeping Angel]

[QUOTE=
Matt Smith could be doing this for a lot longer still.[/QUOTE]

Yes, please!

[Weezer]

What regeneration patterns?
We've had Doctors last up to 7 years (Tom Baker) and Doctors who lasted a single movie (Paul McGann).

Matt Smith could be doing this for a lot longer still.

And even if you're only looking at nu-Who we've had a one year Doctor and a three year Doctor. It's not like there is any pattern, when they switch depends on too many things, including where the plot is, whether the actor wants to continue, how much the production staff likes the actor and many others. It's not something that can be easily predicted.

[Reverent-One]

Just watched the last two eps back to back. Girl was the stronger of the two, I thought. I loved the portal vibe of the first half of the episode. I do wonder if that was intentional on the writer's part or just a serendipitous bonus.

Re the ending

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That's probably the most horrible thing we've ever seen the Doctor do. It was really jarring to see him lie to someone to manipulate them with false hope, with the intention to betray them once they were no longer of use to him. Poor old!Amy

How in the all of time and space is lying to someone so you can save them from 30+ years of hell worse than a variety of fates worse than death (the Family of Blood, for example)?

[Sanguine]

How in the all of time and space is lying to someone so you can save them from 30+ years of hell worse than a variety of fates worse than death (the Family of Blood, for example)?

Existentialism. It all comes down to varying existential view points. I think something everyone should keep in mind when discussing that episode is that other people's views on existentialism are just as valid as theirs are.

[Reverent-One]

Existentialism. It all comes down to varying existential view points. I think something everyone should keep in mind when discussing that episode is that other people's views on existentialism are just as valid as theirs are.

Specifically what existentialist viewpoints is the question.

[chiasaur11]

Specifically what existentialist viewpoints is the question.

The one that says Old Amy is Amy. Just as much as young Amy. And that ceasing to exist is as bad as dying, maybe worse.

Take that angle, and it goes a lot further than with the family.

See, there, they're Bad People who he gave a chance, a fair chance, to run. They didn't take it, innocents got hurt, and they suffered for it. Poetic justice, even if it's overkill.

Amy?

He takes one of his closest friends. Known her since she was seven. And then, on accident, he betrays her. Gives her a few decades constantly hunted, living in perpetual broken hope and separated from the man she loves.

And then, he comes back. Convinces her there's hope. Makes it look like things can go right.

And then, through no fault of hers, he stabs her in the back, leaves her to cease to exist, and makes her husband take the final choice, which is the sort of thing to give most folks who are not Rory Williams massive mental scars.

I mean, sure, maybe he's done things worse. But not much that hits that high on knife to the back.

[Reverent-One]

The one that says Old Amy is Amy. Just as much as young Amy. And that ceasing to exist is as bad as dying, maybe worse.

Take that angle, and it goes a lot further than with the family.

See, there, they're Bad People who he gave a chance, a fair chance, to run. They didn't take it, innocents got hurt, and they suffered for it. Poetic justice, even if it's overkill.

Amy?

He takes one of his closest friends. Known her since she was seven. And then, on accident, he betrays her. Gives her a few decades constantly hunted, living in perpetual broken hope and separated from the man she loves.

And then, he comes back. Convinces her there's hope. Makes it look like things can go right.

And then, through no fault of hers, he stabs her in the back, leaves her to cease to exist, and makes her husband take the final choice, which is the sort of thing to give most folks who are not Rory Williams massive mental scars.

I mean, sure, maybe he's done things worse. But not much that hits that high on knife to the back.

The problem is you're treating this like they're separate people. They're not. There's one Amy, who only gets one life to live and one timeline to follow. If young Amy doesn't want to spend 30+ years living on the run and has a chance to get out, Old Amy should never exist. If you allow Old Amy to preempt Young Amy's choice, then what about Old Amy 2, who spent those 30+ years with Rory, had a family. Why does Old Amy 1 has precedence over her? Or over Old Amy 3, who through some twist of fate never got together with Rory and grew up and had a totally different life? The only difference is that we haven't physically seen those Amy's, so people don't care about them. They're all potentials, but only one can exist, and Amy has ended probably dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of them. As have Rory and the Doctor, by coming into and interfering with her life.

To go further with this idea, this is nothing new to the doctor, he ends potential personal timelines all the freaking time. Season 3? He undoes the Master's actions and never even asks anyone if that's ok with them, if any of them don't want those selves to disappear and never have existed. Or...
Note: Curly spoilers

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Season 4, in "Turn Left"
Donna, Rose, and a few others decide the fates of billions of people's potential futures.

If your reasoning is to be consistent, you should similarly about all those times as well, since all those people in those potential timelines are just as much the same people after the Doctor interferes and changes things.

As a side note, the Doctor never betrayed her there. He saved her and got her out of there, just like he said he would.

[Weezer]

The problem is you're treating this like they're separate people. They're not. There's one Amy, who only gets one life to live and one timeline to follow. If young Amy doesn't want to spend 30+ years living on the run and has a chance to get out, Old Amy should never exist. If you allow Old Amy to preempt Young Amy's choice, then what about Old Amy 2, who spent those 30+ years with Rory, had a family. Why does Old Amy 1 has precedence over her? Or over Old Amy 3, who through some twist of fate never got together with Rory and grew up and had a totally different life? The only difference is that we haven't physically seen those Amy's, so people don't care about them. They're all potentials, but only one can exist, and Amy has ended probably dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of them. As have Rory and the Doctor, by coming into and interfering with her life.

To go further with this idea, this is nothing new to the doctor, he ends potential personal timelines all the freaking time. Season 3? He undoes the Master's actions and never even asks anyone if that's ok with them, if any of them don't want those selves to disappear and never have existed. Or...
Note: Curly spoilers

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Season 4, in "Turn Left"
Donna, Rose, and a few others decide the fates of billions of people's potential futures.

If your reasoning is to be consistent, you should similarly about all those times as well, since all those people in those potential timelines are just as much the same people after the Doctor interferes and changes things.

As a side note, the Doctor never betrayed her there. He saved her and got her out of there, just like he said he would.

As Chiasaur said it all depends on the philosophical stance you approach the situation with. Do you view two independent entities, existing at the same time, with largely different experiences and memories, as separate or the same person? In many ways Old!Amy has more differences with Young!Amy than she does similarities. She is more than twice as old as Young!Amy and all of those separate years were highly traumatic as well as entirely unique, shaping her into her own unique person. Just because each of their continued existences are contingent on the non-existence of their counterpart doesn't mean that they are the same entity. I do think that the Doctor made the right choice, but that doesn't stop it from being an overwhelmingly horrible choice to be forced to make. Manipulating a independent, intelligent, self aware person who trusted you implicitly into causing her own self destruction? It's absolutely horrifying and as someone else said it was by far the darkest thing the Doctor has ever done.

[Reverent-One]

As Chiasaur said it all depends on the philosophical stance you approach the situation with. Do you view two independent entities, existing at the same time, with largely different experiences and memories, as separate or the same person? In many ways Old!Amy has more differences with Young!Amy than she does similarities. She is more than twice as old as Young!Amy and all of those separate years were highly traumatic as well as entirely unique, shaping her into her own unique person. Just because each of their continued existences are contingent on the non-existence of their counterpart doesn't mean that they are the same entity. I do think that the Doctor made the right choice, but that doesn't stop it from being an overwhelmingly horrible choice to be forced to make. Manipulating a independent, intelligent, self aware person who trusted you implicitly into causing her own self destruction? It's absolutely horrifying and as someone else said it was by far the darkest thing the Doctor has ever done.

You seem to have missed my point that he does this all the time. As do his companions. You also make the same mistake of calling Old Amy "independent". She's not, she is totally dependent on Amy staying there for 30+ years. Do you really think that Young Amy would choose to stay there when she could get away? EDIT: In fact, I'm reasonably certain she did ask the Doctor to get her out of there, so she clearly did not.

[Weezer]

I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed my point that he does this all the time. As do his companions. You also make the same mistake of calling Old Amy "independent". She's not, she is totally dependent on Amy staying there for 30+ years. Do you really think that Young Amy would choose to stay there when she could get away?

The thing is there is a difference between when he unilaterally reverses villains actions, as he did in Season 3 and in your spoilered example, and when he convinces his most trusting friend to betray herself. It's not necessarily the action, but the method that makes it so bad. He's not undoing mass murder, he's killing a friend.

Also you seem to be equating a timeline that exists only in potential and one that exists in actuality. Whenever anyone makes a choice they eliminate an unknown number of potential "selves" but I don't think anyone would argue that this elimination is bad. But when someone who existed in actuality is eliminated in favor of some earlier incarnation or due to any manner of time manipulation, then something is truly being lost. The actual outweighs the potential. If your logic was applied to Back to the Future then the audience shouldn't be worried when Marty almost disappears, he was just a potential being who was in the process of being erased.

Old!Amy was independent, she had free will and sentience, her existence was certainly contingent on Young!Amy staying in the complex but saying that made her not independent would be like saying I wasn't independent because my existence is contingent on the fact that my 4 year old self wasn't picked up by the Doctor and hauled off into space. If Old!Amy isn't independent then neither is any other being because our current self only exists so long as our history remains intact. The only difference for Old!Amy is that she is in contact with that which determines her continued existence, which is a pretty unique circumstance.

EDIT: Of course Young!Amy wanted to escape, Old!Amy wanted exactly the same thing too. How do you rate which incarnation's desires should take precedence?

[Reverent-One]

The thing is there is a difference between when he unilaterally reverses villains actions, as he did in Season 3 and in your spoilered example, and when he convinces his most trusting friend to betray herself. It's not necessarily the action, but the method that makes it so bad. He's not undoing mass murder, he's killing a friend.

No, he's convincing his most trusted friend to let him save her, as she asked him to do. Not saving a friend from 30+ years of torment because their 30+ years older self might be bitter and then not want to saved would have been the betrayal.

Also you seem to be equating a timeline that exists only in potential and one that exists in actuality. Whenever anyone makes a choice they eliminate an unknown number of potential "selves" but I don't think anyone would argue that this elimination is bad. But when someone who existed in actuality is eliminated in favor of some earlier incarnation or due to any manner of time manipulation, then something is truly being lost. The actual outweighs the potential. If your logic was applied to Back to the Future then the audience shouldn't be worried when Marty almost disappears, he was just a potential being who was in the process of being erased.

When you have a time machine, any potential timeline becomes actual. The Doctor could travel 30 years into the future as of the latest episode without visiting again, and see Amy and Rory having a normal life. But given that I believe they're confirmed for another season, that's not likely to happen. So if he does return and takes them on more adventures, he's ending that potential/actual future, just like if he doesn't, he's ending the timeline in which he does return and they have more adventures. No matter what he does, he's messing with their timeline. It's what he does, the reason people are getting upset over this time is because we saw Old Amy, and she got a sad montage at the end and the writers did their job playing with our emotions. When in reality, it's little different than if the TARDIS had hit the right timestream and they had never seen Old Amy. She still never existed, she still would have wanted to exist if she had her way.

Old!Amy was independent, she had free will and sentience, her existence was certainly contingent on Young!Amy staying in the complex but saying that made her not independent would be like saying I wasn't independent because my existence is contingent on the fact that my 4 year old self wasn't picked up by the Doctor and hauled off into space. If Old!Amy isn't independent then neither is any other being because our current self only exists so long as our history remains intact. The only difference for Old!Amy is that she is in contact with that which determines her continued existence, which is a pretty unique circumstance.

You are correct, but not like you think you are. Time travel makes personal timelines very flexible. Your current existence is dependent on the fact that your 4 year old self wasn't picked up by the doctor.

EDIT: Of course Young!Amy wanted to escape, Old!Amy wanted exactly the same thing too. How do you rate which incarnation's desires should take precedence?

The Doctor promised Young Amy he would save her, I see no reason why he should break that promise and leave her sitting there for 30 years.

[Eakin]

I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible choice to have to make, or even that taking young Amy wasn't, in the end, the correct thing to do. But to leave Amy for 30 years, then come back and lie to her about the possibility of rescue in order to manipulate her into pulling young Amy back into the correct reference frame/time stream/whatever and then literally SLAM A DOOR in her face and leave her to be murdered by an army of robots is absolutely, unspeakably, evil. Just because it was all undone by time travel doesn't make it not evil, any more than (S3 finale spoiler)

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the year of hell being undone at the end of S3

made the actions of the cast in that episode less good or heroic.

I don't see how you can say that Old Amy has zero moral agency or consideration in this.

[BRC]

Can I just say a trend I've noticed with these last two episodes. I'll spoiler the entire thing just because.

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Is it just me, or does it seem like the show is aware that people have been complaining that Amy is dipping below the necessary CBL, or Companion Badass Level. The Girl who Waited featured Amy with everything that wasn't badass filed off, and this episode gave us Nurse Girl, who managed to pull off that elusive "Strength of character" style of badassery that is so much more impressive than kicking ass. Any writer can insert a scene where a character beats seventeen cyborgs to death with their bare hands, that's easy. It's much harder to write a character with lots of internal strength.

But anyway, I generally liked this episode. Anything I would say about it generally has already been said more eloquently, so let me just address the two main topics of discussion.


I would be willing to believe that this was the final goodbye for Amy and Rory had they done this on a season finale. As it is, there is no way they are going to do something as major as a companion leaving with anything less than a two-parter finale (especially since this season seems willing to do two-parters at the drop of a hat).

Also, my theory on what is in Room #11

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The Twelfth Doctor. Remember, at this point the doctor knows he is going to die at Lake Silencio. Even if he knows it's a "Final Death", his time-lord subconscious probably still associates "Death" with "Regeneration", he is forced to face the next incarnation of himself

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naked

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covered in butter

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singing "Happy Birthday Mister President"

[Reverent-One]

I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible choice to have to make, or even that taking young Amy wasn't, in the end, the correct thing to do. But to leave Amy for 30 years, then come back and lie to her about the possibility of rescue in order to manipulate her into pulling young Amy back into the correct reference frame/time stream/whatever and then literally SLAM A DOOR in her face and leave her to be murdered by an army of robots is absolutely, unspeakably, evil. Just because it was all undone by time travel doesn't make it not evil, any more than (S3 finale spoiler)

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the year of hell being undone at the end of S3

made the actions of the cast in that episode less good or heroic.

I don't see how it's evil at all, only one Amy can exist, and in order to prevent Amy from going through 30+ years of torment, they lie to her older self. This is no more evil than lying to someone with an addiction in order to get them to an intervention, you have to save them from themselves. Further, Rory and Old Amy agreed with leaving her there in the end, the Doctor didn't have the final say in that.

I don't see how you can say that Old Amy has zero moral agency or consideration in this.

All three of them decided to end the existence of any version of Amy that lived there any length of time without being saved by A) Amy asking to be saved, and B) The Doctor and Rory trying to save her immediately. As Rory said, Amy being in there for one hour, one minute (or was it one day, one hour?) was unacceptable. The decision was made before Old Amy stepped on the screen. I don't see how you think Amy going through 30+ years of torment is a desired outcome and something her husband and best friend would put her through.