Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Reverent-One]

What, standard camo?

Anyway, Octavian's a Roman Catholic.

Actually, he's a member of The Church, same as the bunch from Demon Run.

[Weezer]

Also I'd imagine that the difference is purely a one of time. According to the Tardis wiki Demon's Run takes place a century after the Byzantium, that gives the Silence plenty of time to infiltrate/warp the Church to turn them against the Doctor.

[Thufir]

An interesting little official recap of River's timeline, following her chronology and with voice overs by Alex Kinsgston. Thought you'd enjoy it. http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2011/...her-story.html

Yeah, I hated that bit. One can potentially debate River's sue-ness, but that self-indulgent little sequence just rubs your face in it like it's something to be proud of.

You're suggesting there are two entirely different groups of religious solders who wear identical uniforms at around the same time period?

That's so hard to believe?

Actually, he's a member of The Church, same as the bunch from Demon Run.

Only, see, the people updating the TARDIS wiki don't have any more information than we do, and there's nothing mentioned on that page to indicate they're the same group.

Given the amount of different denominations of Christianity, the fact the Doctor has said there are more religions than planets in the sky, the fact that Colonel Runaway mentioned a sanction from the Papal Mainframe and yet at least two of the army were Anglicans, while the clerics under Octavian's commands didn't indicate any specific beliefs as I recall, other than the fact they all had sacred names (None of which were sacred names in any current religion as far as I'm aware)... given all of that, I don't think it's a great leap of the imagination to think that just maybe there are different orders of militaristic clerics and they don't all agree with each other.

[BRC]

Given the amount of different denominations of Christianity, the fact the Doctor has said there are more religions than planets in the sky, the fact that Colonel Runaway mentioned a sanction from the Papal Mainframe and yet at least two of the army were Anglicans, while the clerics under Octavian's commands didn't indicate any specific beliefs as I recall, other than the fact they all had sacred names (None of which were sacred names in any current religion as far as I'm aware)... given all of that, I don't think it's a great leap of the imagination to think that just maybe there are different orders of militaristic clerics and they don't all agree with each other.

Never mind the different time periods we're talking about. Octavian's Clerics could be centuries before or after Demons Run. I don't think I ever saw any indication that Demons Run was contemporary with Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone.

[Aotrs Commander]

I was at a convention all weekend, so I've only just got around to watching it.

Me, I loved it.

(The fact I appear to be in the minority does not surprise me. I liked the Star Wars prequels too, so attribute to that what you may... Heck, I loved the season 2 ender. Not because of all that Rose nonsense, that was a bit pants, but the (I've no idea if Curly's seen that one yet, so I'll spoiler it anyway for safety)

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Dalek vrs Cyberman smack-talk

was the Be Most Awesome Moment of Doctor Who Ever (closely followed by "Basically, run" and "do I have to repeat the question?" So, again...)

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It was obvious the Doctor was going to survive - we all knew that - so I wasn't at all bothered by the tesselactor usage. In fact, I highly approve of the Doctor's method of dealing with the fixed point.

Rolemaster's temporal sourcebook had a name for it "saving appearences." It assumes history was immutable, and that it couldn't be changed (and the harder you tried, the harder you'd fail). But what you could do was alter the reality so long as the perception remained. The best example of this was a bad-guy group called the Revisionists. Their aim was to quietly re-write all of history, so that all of recorded history was a sham, and the everyone had always been Revisionists in secret, until the current time of the Revisionists and they could declare themselves openly. I thought that was a marvellously nasty and ambitious plan.

Dalek cameo was awesome, especially the fact that the Doctor basically flat out stated he was the Dalek's devil - that was freaking awesome.

Rory was great as usual. And kudos to Amy - unlucky Ms Badguylady, harhar.

River was River. Yes, she is a Sue. So is the Doctor. So is Batman half the time, for that matter! And, y'know what, I'm okay with that. River makes me laugh, and she does cool-awesome-things. Also the point raised earlier about her frightening that Dalek; I'd not thought about that, but damn, YES they should be crap scared of her - she literally killed their devil!

(On the other hand plunger, maybe there's a humorous side story were some Daleks show up suddenly, give her a hearty shake plunger-shake and slap a medal on her...

...

That idea is so hilariously awesome, it must exist! Internet do your thing!)

Sad to officially say goodbye to the Brig (in the continuity), though (it's been a bad year, hasn't it, losing both Nicolas Courtney and Elizabeth Sladen.)

Oh and

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Did anyone else have Planescape flashbacks in those scenes in the crypt?

Yep!

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And more than that, on Confidential Steven Moffat said "Yes that was indeed the Doctor, and yes he is really dead."

New Rule One: The Moffat lies.

(Like any good Dungeon Master.)

Why wouldn't he? No, seriously, why would you give away that away for any reason and spoiler the finale. (Seriously, it wasn't like a lot of people beleived they were really going to kill the Doctor.)

I would, if I was him, too. In this day and age of free information flow, I would certainly obscurificate my big spoilers. Heck, I'd go a stage further and start spreading misinformation to; I'd have quietly ensured no-one was sure that it wasn't the last ever series of Doctor Who, or that the primary cast were not obvious that they'd been booked in for next season.

Besides, before River's meddling in the first timeline, it may have been true the first time. Maybe.

Looking back on clips of the episode on iPlayer I now have one minor complaint with the episode.

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Why are we unmaking this bubble universe? Winston Churchill rides mammoths to while he rules the Roman Empire. Lizardmen and humans live side-by-side. Steam Engines travel on huge struts everywhere from the middle of London to the Great Pyramids (which are now secret US bases). Now sure time has stopped, but so what? This is the most awesome it will ever be. Kennedy is President, Cleopatra is alive, balloon cars fill the sky. Why would we want this to change? Pterodactyls are common pests in England! Dickens is writing new books. And we get all this but still the luxuries of modern technology. We have the opportunity to live in the coolest, most amazing society ever, and it lasts forever, but no the Doctor has to stop it.

That is a good point...

Pretty much the conclusion I expected.

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I know others will disagree, but I think Moffat is a lot more playful with the timey-wimey aspect of the show, and I enjoy it.

Take for example, the construct of a fixed point: It's been used in past as a kind of fait accompli meets deus ex machina way of keeping the Doctor from jabbing his fingers into every event in history. This episode tweaked that idea on the nose, and it deserved it.

If you actually think about it beyond the hand-wave level, the construct of a fixed point has to do with issues of causality, but doesn't extrapolate the variables of any given "fixed points" to generate a meaningful interpretation of what's fixed and what isn't amongst near-infinite variables that go into any fragment of space-time occurrence. "It has to happen" is actually "Certain conditions must be fulfilled"--it's just that generally those criterion are difficult to tease out.

In NuWho we've seen cases of the Doctor intervening in a manner that doesn't alter a fixed point (at Vesuvius) and in a manner that would have (in Waters of Mars), as well as the creation and resolution of a paradox event (Father's Day), which suggested that my idea of criterion-fulfillment isn't off base relative to the show's internal technobabble.

Apply all this to the Silence's season long plot to kill Eleven.

The Silence have, by forcing a fixed point, attempted to bottleneck possibility such that Eleven's death at Lake Silencio is an inevitability...but really all they've done is created a set of criterion events that have to be fulfilled. And then they've blabbed about those criterion by reciting them as prophecy and generally being smug while yammering away about how it's all unchangeable. The joke is that for all of their conspiring and time-hopping, The Silence have hobbled themselves with a bias--they're their own confirmation that the Doctor ceases to exist after Lake Silencio--and don't recognize that this one element means that even a slight information failure on their part makes the artificial fixed point escapable.

There's a hole in the criterion fulfillment aspect of the fixed point--the Doctor does not have to die, he just has to appear to die at the time and place and be identified as dead. Witnesses (and contemporary agents of the Silence, presumably) pass that information along and it becomes encoded as a fact...as time advances forward the Silence encode this information as fact-and- "prophecy" and eventually structure a plot that relies upon their lore of a fixed point. It's an enclosed case of confirmation bias played out in space-time.

And here's the open-ended bit...now that the fixed point has been resolved and the Doctor is still alive, it's possible that the Silence will find out and again try to kill him, and since possibility is no longer bottle-necked the future (and past) of what and how they try is open. Indeed, we may have already seen a future assassination attempt--detonating the TARDIS--and/or bits and pieces of Silence conspiracies that we don't recognize as such.

It's actually a pretty good demonstration of how frightening and complex a war across time would be: essentially, we've watched a flawed campaign of terror, espionage, and infiltration played out by extrapolation of available knowledge across time--confirm-able events, people, dates/location--paired with exploitation of uncertainties...all of those vague things that can be fiddled with in the time-stream...towards a specific objective. But it was one-campaign...and there's theoretically a dozen others occurring, implemented by different iterations of the Silence.

The mash-up dimension was enjoyable, too.

That is a very good analysis. Nice job (and I totally agree!)



Now what NuWho needs is more Daleks. Lots of Daleks, being awesome. They can be power ranger Daleks or not, I'm really not fussy! (Actually, I rather like the idea of brightly coloured Daleks acting like Evil power rangers, because it would be freakin' hilariously awesome!)

That probably says a lot about my tastes doesn't it...?

[Aidan305]

*Snip*

This is pretty much everything I have to say about the episode. Yes, it could probably have done with having longer to expand on everything going on and provide a bit more development of character, but it remains a fun and slightly whacky episode, with just a touch of fear thrown in. This, to me, is what makes Dr Who what it is.

[Tiki Snakes]

I really rather enjoyed it too.

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Though, to be honest, I did wonder a short while ago if the double bluff option of the Ganger might have been used.

With the real Doctor Dying and the Ganger Doctor being the one Smith would be portraying in the next series. It would get around the 'everyone knows he's been contracted for next year' thing as well as be a nice place to sneak in a whole load of new regenerations.

Though I wasn't suprised they didn't go that way, as I never entirely believed they would.

[SKarious]

You're not alone, commander. I've enjoyed it too. Although it did have a high ratio of "WTF moments". Still, there were some very awesome moments in it, too.

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-Rory holding the gun whilke suffering from intense pain. Doesn't matter he didn't get to shoot any of them - he was willing to endure this silently just
for Amy. I guess some thing will not be changed, regardless of reality.
-River's speech atop the pyramid. I'm not ashamed to admit it was very well filmed and passionate.
- Bowties are, indeed, very cool.
- Dorium was a great comic relief. I wish we'll see more of him.
- The Doctor's solution: was clever in his own way. and who's to say he didn't regenerate while inside the robot? We know from Ten that the Doctor can keep the same shape after regenning, and that could explain the lightshow.

Still waiting for Curly's review. Where is she? Maybe she's still recovering from the historical inaccuracies at the first part of the episode.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Still waiting for Curly's review. Where is she? Maybe she's still recovering from the historical inaccuracies at the first part of the episode.

That 'famous' am I? Maybe I'll string you all along some more then?

Nah!

Although, where've I been?
Saturday: travelling to uni, showing various relatives around uni-town, then collapsing in bed due to: fatigue (I do not travel well at all), heat (it's practically winter and we had better-than-an-average-summer weather) in a city that's virtually a sun trap, dehydration despite drinking copious amounts of fluids, and recovering from illness.
(Also get some reading in.)
Hand in internet form beforehand.
Sunday: helping a friend with unpacking, shopping, unpacking, film with friend and food. Waiting for internet. (Work)
Monday: shopping for food with above friend, shopping for various other things with friend, getting up early to have breakfast due to lack of food with friend, going gym with friend, watching a film with friend. Hi internet! (But work first).
Tuesday: unpacking with another friend, shopping with said friend for food, eating food with said friend, watching a film with friend (Paul: love it), buy books written in Old French; read forums, read this page, respond to SKarious, but first remove spoilers.

Things still to do:
Buy several Renaissance and Early Modern romances, buy some more OF texts, buy some more SHakespeare things, read aforementioned things, articles and books, write Shakespeare essay, write Ancrene Wisse essay, finish reading Le Chanson de Roland in OF, ditto Yvain, le Chevalier au Lion, have dinner, catch up generally on things I've missed online.
Oh, and watch 'The Wedding of River Song' and write it up.

What can I say, I'm in my final year.

[KillianHawkeye]

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We know from Ten that the Doctor can keep the same shape after regenning, and that could explain the lightshow.

That was a special case.

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He stopped from doing a complete regeneration by shunting the excess energy into his handy spare hand. In other words, he cheated.

I wouldn't expect anything like that to happen ever again.

[Starscream]

I don't get why people think that

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a robot can take on any form, including hair and clothing, travel through time and presumably space, shrink other people down to a tiny fraction of their normal size...but not provide a few pretty lights to make a performance more convincing.

[Androgeus]

I don't get why people think that

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a robot can take on any form, including hair and clothing, travel through time and presumably space, shrink other people down to a tiny fraction of their normal size...but not provide a few pretty lights to make a performance more convincing.

Especially when it has already shown it can produce light

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Also Moffat's tweet on this

[Avaris]

With regard to Sunken Valley's idea of a different season (I won't say better, as that is subjective), I've had a few thoughts.

First off, one of the specifications made was that it would leave it at the exact same point as the real season, ie River being Melody Pond, the question being Doctor Who? etc. Why should this be? We're creating a new continuity as a creative exercise, why limit ourselves?

Which brings me onto my second thought. At the start of the season we didn't know that the Silence was linked to a question at all, so it doesn't have to be. As of the previous season the only thing we had seen of the Silence was an attempt to destroy the Tardis; why shouldn't this be their actual goal rather than a means to kill the Doctor? Especially with the Doctor's Wife, it could be interesting to have a Tardis-centric season, and as a creative exercise designing it would probably be far more rewarding than simply trying to 'fix' what the current season got 'wrong'.

[Kobold-Bard]

Questions: When did the Dr. give River her red-setting enabled Screwdriver, where is the Dr.'s red-setting enabled screwdriver & where's all the clicky-fingers TARDIS opening she said he did?

Also for the line "turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut", where was that?

[Kato]

Questions: When did the Dr. give River her red-setting enabled Screwdriver, where is the Dr.'s red-setting enabled screwdriver & where's all the clicky-fingers TARDIS opening she said he did?

Also for the line "turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut", where was that?

I think the Doctor gave River his (new) Screwdriver after the Angels two-parter. As for all that stuff to happen... there is still time? Why must everything happen until now? They got years to spend together. I guess.

[Sanguine]

Questions: When did the Dr. give River her red-setting enabled Screwdriver, where is the Dr.'s red-setting enabled screwdriver & where's all the clicky-fingers TARDIS opening she said he did?

Also for the line "turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut", where was that?

Well most of that probably hasn't happened yet. However he has opened the TARDIS by snapping his fingers. He did it in the Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead two-parter as well as the Eleventh Hour. He might have done it other times as well; but if so I don't recall them.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well most of that probably hasn't happened yet. However he has opened the TARDIS by snapping his fingers. He did it in the Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead two-parter as well as the Eleventh Hour. He might have done it other times as well; but if so I don't recall them.

He did it again after the library episode you say. ORLY?

I didn't know/remember that.

[Weezer]

He did it again after the library episode you say. ORLY?

I didn't know/remember that.

Yeah, I remember it happening too, mostly because it made me sit up and think "Moffat how are you so good at following through with what seemed like throwaway lines".

[KillianHawkeye]

When did the Dr. give River her red-setting enabled Screwdriver, where is the Dr.'s red-setting enabled screwdriver?

He gives it to her on their last night together before The Library. We probably won't actually get to see this scene since it's already been heavily described for us, but it would nice if The Doctor added red settings to his screwdriver at some point. What did the red setting do again?

[Androgeus]

He also snapped the tardis open near the start of "Day of the Moon".

I noticed something about tWoRS,

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does the eye drive work for the Teselecta? The Doctor has to put it on anyway to avoid arousing suspicion, but it doesn't seem like it would work.

[Sanguine]

What did the red setting do again?

I don't think it ever said. My theory: Wood.

[Thufir]

River suggested using the red settings to counteract the interference caused by certain kinds of transmissions (And also certain hairdryers), like the ones between the Library and the moon (Transmissions, not hairdryers).

[BRC]

So I JUST got around to watching it (Got sick of waiting for friends to be up for it) and Can I just say

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I enjoyed it immensely.
Yes, it was silly and nonsensical, between Roman Emperor Churchill, Commando Rory, the triumphant return of Captain Tiny and the Tesslecctia, and perhaps the most nonsensical alternate timeline in a season FULL of alternate timelines (How many versions of the past does Amy have in her head now?).

You can tell me I was wrong to find the idea of Emperor Winston Churchill amazing. You can tell me I should set my standards for plot twists a little higher than "It was the shape shifting robot the entire time!". You can tell me that I should sit back, and sigh at Moffat's inability to write a good climax. You can tell me it made no sense to have Amy remember everything from the alternate timeline, yet still not recognize Rory. You can tell me that the Space-Viking was stupid. You can even tell me that they killed off Madame Kovorkian without ever really bothering to characterize her.


But you CANNOT tell me that I did not have plenty of fun. Perhaps tomorrow I'll decide the episode was terrible and attempt to purge my brain of the memory by watching Nyan Cat for three hours straight, but for now, I loved it.

Ave Churchill.

[factotum]

I think many others will admit the episode was *fun*, BRC--I enjoyed it while it was on; it was only when it finished that I sat there and realised I just felt totally unsatisfied with the way the season-long arc plot was resolved. I was in that mood when I made my earlier post, which is why I was so harsh on the episode! I'd maybe rate it a wee bit higher now, although I still think that plot resolution was utter cobblers.

[dehro]

So I JUST got around to watching it (Got sick of waiting for friends to be up for it) and Can I just say

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I enjoyed it immensely.
Yes, it was silly and nonsensical, between Roman Emperor Churchill, Commando Rory, the triumphant return of Captain Tiny and the Tesslecctia, and perhaps the most nonsensical alternate timeline in a season FULL of alternate timelines (How many versions of the past does Amy have in her head now?).

You can tell me I was wrong to find the idea of Emperor Winston Churchill amazing. You can tell me I should set my standards for plot twists a little higher than "It was the shape shifting robot the entire time!". You can tell me that I should sit back, and sigh at Moffat's inability to write a good climax. You can tell me it made no sense to have Amy remember everything from the alternate timeline, yet still not recognize Rory. You can tell me that the Space-Viking was stupid. You can even tell me that they killed off Madame Kovorkian without ever really bothering to characterize her.


But you CANNOT tell me that I did not have plenty of fun. Perhaps tomorrow I'll decide the episode was terrible and attempt to purge my brain of the memory by watching Nyan Cat for three hours straight, but for now, I loved it.

Ave Churchill.

what he said

also

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area 51 has piramids!
I wants one too, now.

[dehro]

...I have a question:
I'll spoiler it as a precaution.

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was the Doctor's death supposed to be a fixed moment in time, or a fixed event?
I mean.. if indeed he only needed to be there and stand still... ok.. kinda.
if instead it was his death that was supposed to happen, as in "that's the event, showing up doesn't quite cut it"...then...major cheating on Moffat's part...and I'd be underwhelmed. does anybody remember what people said, or more importantly, what the doctor himself said with regards to this distinction? during the exchange with his wife/killer.. did he say something like "shoot me, I'm supposed to die" or did he only say a generic something like "it's supposed to happen" without going into details?

either way..what happened to Captain Tiny and his crew?

[Kobold-Bard]

...I have a question:
I'll spoiler it as a precaution.

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was the Doctor's death supposed to be a fixed moment in time, or a fixed event?
I mean.. if indeed he only needed to be there and stand still... ok.. kinda
if instead it was his death that was supposed to happen, as in "that's the event, showing up doesn't quite cut it"...then...major cheating on Moffat's part...and I'd be underwhelmed. does anybody remember what people said, or more importantly, what the doctor himself said with regards to this distinction? during the exchange with his wife/killer.. did he say something like "shoot me, I'm supposed to die" or did he only say a generic something like "it's supposed to happen" without going into details?

either way..what happened to Captain Tiny and his crew?

I think the Dr. dying was the fixed point in time, right up until the end. At that point one of two things happened:

1. The Tessalecta mimics people so perfectly that for that moment it "was" the Dr. & was a Time Lord in a literal sense, so the fixed point remained the same and it dying satisfied that criteria.

or

2. Moffat cheated and changed it from "The Dr. has to die on that beach at that time" to "the Dr. has to be on that beach at that time, and astro-River has to shoot at where he's standing and the world has to believe that the Dr. died".

As for Captain Tiny & his tiny crew, who knows. Either they got themselves a new man-ship, got a new job crewing tiny cruise liners or retired into the "Realm of Forgotten TV Characters".

[Tiki Snakes]

My theory;

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I think the point about Fixed-Events/Points in time as featured, is that as long as you can change little enough that to everyones knowledge it appears to be identical, you can get away with it.

And as the people forcing a fixed point in time are presumably not Time-Lords, they should lack any kind of comprehensive way to check that it even is, truly, a fixed point in time.

[Kato]

Spoiler for spoiler's sake...

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I'd argue it had to be 'people believe him die'. I don't think he ever died there, and if people said so, it was because people believed that was what happened, e.g. young River when she shot him/didn't want to shoot him. Why else would he have his body burned in the first episode? Merely for the sake of a viking funeral?

How would people know for sure if he was dead if he decided to keep a low profile from then on out? And given the timey wimey nature of the show... I really don't want to get into what they might think if some future Doctor does some hijinks to draw attention.

Urgh, I feel like starting a time travel discussion but I know from the start it won't make any sense anyway.

[BRC]

...I have a question:
I'll spoiler it as a precaution.

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was the Doctor's death supposed to be a fixed moment in time, or a fixed event?
I mean.. if indeed he only needed to be there and stand still... ok.. kinda.
if instead it was his death that was supposed to happen, as in "that's the event, showing up doesn't quite cut it"...then...major cheating on Moffat's part...and I'd be underwhelmed. does anybody remember what people said, or more importantly, what the doctor himself said with regards to this distinction? during the exchange with his wife/killer.. did he say something like "shoot me, I'm supposed to die" or did he only say a generic something like "it's supposed to happen" without going into details?

either way..what happened to Captain Tiny and his crew?

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The rules of Time are very vague. Basically you can change things, provided you don't alter "Fixed Points in Time".

Before this episode, I always assumed that a Fixed Point in time/a fixed event would be something like the JFK assassination, or the storming of the Bastille, something that had enough impact that changing it would disrupt too much of history. "Fires of Pompeii" demonstrated this version quite well, you can't save Pompeii, but you could save one family. You can't go back in time and kill Hitler (though you can torture him in his last moments)

Now, according to this episode, they tried to Manufacture a Fixed Point in Time by killing the Doctor at a specific time and place. Now, the death of the Doctor probably creates a big enough ripple to make it a fixed point no matter what, but this episode made it sound like an elaborate pantomime the Silence set up in order to ensure his death becomes fixed (Having River pilot the suit, even though it seems like she just happened to be in the suit, she didn't actually do anything, making sure it occurred at Lake Silencio, even though he was only there because he knew he was supposed to die there, ect.

And then there is the whole problem with trying to set up a specific event when you have time travel, so you know whether it happened/did not happen anyway.

But, ignoring that, I think the reason the Doctor's Loophole worked was because the "Fixed event" wasn't actually his death, not really, it was everybody thinking he died. Going with Moffat's theme of the Doctor's reputation becoming increasingly important, he didn't actually have to die, everybody just had to think he was dead, and provided he dosn't tell anybody , people who run into him can just assume that they're running into a version of the Doctor from before Lake Silencio, you know, because of Time Travel.

So, basically, you COULD go back in time and save JFK, provided you hid him in a bunker and never let anybody know.

As for Captain Tiny, I imagine that he and his crew were probably driving the Tesselectia the entire time (It looks like it needs a sizable crew to pull it off) with the Doctor calling the shots.

Which means that the fixed event wasn't "River shoots the Doctor", it was "River shoots the tesselectia", so actually, touching The Doctor wouldn't have had time start again, but it would have started up had she touched the Tesselectia, no matter what face it was wearing.

I imagine that, after being shot, the Tesselectia just pretended to be dead until they put it on the pyre, at which point it teleported away.Or maybe it was destroyed, but then it probably wouldn't have kept looking like The Doctor. I personally believe that it's still out there, and Captain Tiny is just keeping the entire thing a secret.

Captain Tiny is good people.

Edit: Also

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Whats the word on Amy and Rory? I've heard talk that they will be coming back, I've heard talk that this was their last season. Personally, as much as I love them, I think their story has been told. They had a good run, doing more than just about any other companion (heck, they're technically the Doctor's In-laws. Also, it means they spent quite some time watching their best friend hit on their daughter). It's time to move on