Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[The Extinguisher]

Fixed points are confusing!

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Interesting enough, I think it was the Silence's plan to create a fixed point that let this happen. The final death of the Doctor is important enough to be a fixed point anyway, so there was no need to engineer the event. They could have just shown up on his doorstep and shot him.

[BRC]

Fixed points are confusing!

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Interesting enough, I think it was the Silence's plan to create a fixed point that let this happen. The final death of the Doctor is important enough to be a fixed point anyway, so there was no need to engineer the event. They could have just shown up on his doorstep and shot him.

Hrm, here's an idea

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The thing about Fixed Points gets messed up with Time Travel. A Fixed Point always Will Happen until it Happens, at which point it will Always Have Happened, that's kind of the definition. If The Doctor's Death was a Fixed Point, then the Silence wouldn't have needed to arrange it, except that they always arranged it, so it always had to happen.
Or Did It.
Maybe the EVENTS of a Fixed Point must remain the same, but the Details can change.
Example of a Fixed Point: The JFK Assassination. Under this theory you could go back in time and give Lee Harvey Oswald a different rifle, or put him in a different place, or even have a different person perform the assassination for a totally different reason. The Fixed Event is that JFK is assassinated. Time can be Re-Written so long as JFK gets assassinated in Dallas on November 22nd, 1963.

Now, lets say that the Fixed Point in Time was not the Doctor's Death (Well, clearly it wasn't), it was "River Song Shoots the Doctor". River Song HAD to shoot the Doctor or else Ave Churchill.
Now, this is were things get complicated.

Originally, River Song shoots the Doctor at Lake Silencio. He gets injured but recovers, or maybe he regenerates, the point is, He Does Not Die. This, for some reason, gets locked in as a fixed point in time.

The Silence are trying to kill the Doctor, and so he can't find out about it and change it, it needs to be a Fixed Event. They use this shooting as the event. That's why they put River in the suit, even though it looks like the Suit was doing all the work, the Fixed Event is that River Song Shoots the Doctor, the only difference is that this time she's doing it with some kind of crazy energy beam that stops him from regenerating. They've changed the circumstances, she's now in an astronaut suit, and using a Time Lord Kill Beam, but the Event remains constant.

The Doctor then changes the circumstances yet again. River Song must shoot at him, he's just changing the details, like the clothes he's wearing, though in this case "Clothes" means "Shape Shifting Time Traveling Justicebot".

Who knows, maybe he really did Die back in The Impossible Astronaut, killed by Brainwashed Psycho River, and what we saw here was a third version of the same event.

[Weezer]

Fixed points are confusing!

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Interesting enough, I think it was the Silence's plan to create a fixed point that let this happen. The final death of the Doctor is important enough to be a fixed point anyway, so there was no need to engineer the event. They could have just shown up on his doorstep and shot him.

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So you think the Silence were pulling a double blind? Convincing everyone that they wanted to kill the Doctor while in fact making it possible for him to save himself? Interesting.

[Lorn]

A thought about the fixed point thing. I've not read the entirety of the last couple pages, apologies if it's been said.

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Ok, so we know that the Silence engineered this fixed point as unchangeable and un-find-out-able. And that fixed point is the events that happened on the beach of the lake.

The Silence believe, and thus make it known, that it is the death of the Doctor. They have no reason not to.

However - and this is the crucial bit - the Silence are wrong.

The information about the fixed point is wrong.

Everything happened as it was meant to have happened. The Silence have been shown to infiltrate entire societies and fill them with random information. But they got it wrong.

There's no messing about with the fixed point, there's no complicated stuff.

It's as simple as the intelligence on the event being wrong. That the Silence believed their plan to have worked, because they have no reason not to believe that their plan worked.

There's no point in the Doctor allowing them to find out otherwise, because they will then hatch a new plan and try and kill him again. Better to work against their organisation from the shadows.

[Dienekes]

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So you think the Silence were pulling a double blind? Convincing everyone that they wanted to kill the Doctor while in fact making it possible for him to save himself? Interesting.

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I think he's saying it's a mistake. The Silence were trying to kill the Doctor and make sure that it stuck, fulfilling a list of requirements to make sure that his death was a fixed point. However, with knowledge of what the Silence are doing the Doctor decides to cheat.

He brings his companions there so they see what's happening. He makes sure the details are exactly like the Silence want, and the Doctor appears to be killed. However, the Silence didn't count on the Teselecta. Notably, the Doctor didn't fool around in time to make sure that the event was changed. He went to his death, but in his own special suit to make sure that the details would be met while the results would not be.

So instead of walking up and shooting him, the Silence engineered a fixed point that the Doctor would always escape their great plan to murder him.

[dehro]

Ave Churchill has a nice ring to it

[Raddish]

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So instead of walking up and shooting him, the Silence engineered a fixed point that the Doctor would always escape their great plan to murder him.

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So they basically engineered their own plan to failure by trying so hard to make everything the way they thought it had to be?

[The Extinguisher]

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So they basically engineered their own plan to failure by trying so hard to make everything the way they thought it had to be?

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Pretty much.

Hoist with their own petard, as it were.

[Foeofthelance]

Hrm, here's an idea

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The thing about Fixed Points gets messed up with Time Travel. A Fixed Point always Will Happen until it Happens, at which point it will Always Have Happened, that's kind of the definition. If The Doctor's Death was a Fixed Point, then the Silence wouldn't have needed to arrange it, except that they always arranged it, so it always had to happen.
Or Did It.
Maybe the EVENTS of a Fixed Point must remain the same, but the Details can change.
Example of a Fixed Point: The JFK Assassination. Under this theory you could go back in time and give Lee Harvey Oswald a different rifle, or put him in a different place, or even have a different person perform the assassination for a totally different reason. The Fixed Event is that JFK is assassinated. Time can be Re-Written so long as JFK gets assassinated in Dallas on November 22nd, 1963.

Now, lets say that the Fixed Point in Time was not the Doctor's Death (Well, clearly it wasn't), it was "River Song Shoots the Doctor". River Song HAD to shoot the Doctor or else Ave Churchill.
Now, this is were things get complicated.

Originally, River Song shoots the Doctor at Lake Silencio. He gets injured but recovers, or maybe he regenerates, the point is, He Does Not Die. This, for some reason, gets locked in as a fixed point in time.

The Silence are trying to kill the Doctor, and so he can't find out about it and change it, it needs to be a Fixed Event. They use this shooting as the event. That's why they put River in the suit, even though it looks like the Suit was doing all the work, the Fixed Event is that River Song Shoots the Doctor, the only difference is that this time she's doing it with some kind of crazy energy beam that stops him from regenerating. They've changed the circumstances, she's now in an astronaut suit, and using a Time Lord Kill Beam, but the Event remains constant.

The Doctor then changes the circumstances yet again. River Song must shoot at him, he's just changing the details, like the clothes he's wearing, though in this case "Clothes" means "Shape Shifting Time Traveling Justicebot".

Who knows, maybe he really did Die back in The Impossible Astronaut, killed by Brainwashed Psycho River, and what we saw here was a third version of the same event.

It was established back in Waters of Mars and Fires of Pompeii that fixed events are not as immutable as they seem, but that they do have to stick at least partially to the script. Apologies in advance for mass spoiler blocks!

In Waters of Mars

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We see the Doctor try to change time by saving the head of the expedition, when its already been revealed that her death is a fixed point in time, required for humanity to go forth and conquer the stars. He manages to change the circumstances of her death and save the other two crew members, but she still kills herself at the end to prove her point to the Doctor. Different circumstances, same consequences. (Some crew manage to survive with the help of the Doctor, but the Leader still dies.)

In Fires of Pompeii

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The Doctor refuses to save the family from the volcano, up until he realizes he is the cause of the eruption. Once that point was established, he realized he had the ability to save them after all and did so. Same circumstances, difference consequences. (The volcano still explodes, but this time someone survives.)

So...

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So really, the only thing that had to happen was the Doctor had to appear to die. River could have stabbed him, she could have shot him, she could have held him under the waters and drowned him. they could have chopped him up, burnt the body, or launched him into space. What triggered the change in time was River actively choosing to not hurt the Doctor.

[Starscream]

It was established back in Waters of Mars and Fires of Pompeii that fixed events are not as immutable as they seem, but that they do have to stick at least partially to the script. Apologies in advance for mass spoiler blocks!

This is basically what I think.

As long as everybody believes he is dead, they will react as if he actually is. Whatever history says happened next will still happen.

The fun part is going to be seeing how this changes the Doctor's MO. Had a moment of Fridge Brilliance when I went back and watched Closing Time again. In that story the Doctor tries not to get involved and absolutely can't resist.

It's in his very nature to fight evil. As that episode puts it, "I'm here to help". He can't just walk away. Now the entire universe thinks he's dead, and he needs to let history takes its course as if he actually is. If he changes anything (or at the very least allows word to get out that he changed it), there will be trouble. Best case scenario is that his enemies learn he is still alive and come after him again. Worst case...well, worst case is pretty much certain to happen. The Question will be asked. Silence will fall. Whatever that means.

In a sense, every point is history is now a fixed point for him, because he's not allowed to interfere. And he will. Hell yes, he will. I'm looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

[Thufir]

Worst case...well, worst case is pretty much certain to happen. The Question will be asked. Silence will fall. Whatever that means.

No, remember, the Silence want silence to fall when the Question is asked - that is, they want the Question not to be answered. The bad stuff is down to the Doctor answering the question as opposed to Silence falling.

Also, one point - given the Doctor is a time traveller, how will anyone be able to tell any future adventures he has weren't just previous adventures? How will they know he didn't just do this stuff before he died?

[Starscream]

Also, one point - given the Doctor is a time traveller, how will anyone be able to tell any future adventures he has weren't just previous adventures? How will they know he didn't just do this stuff before he died?

Well, his enemies are time travelers too. And they apparently know what he would have done had they not "killed" him. Presumably they have a pretty good handle on his personal timeline, and will know if something is up.

But yeah, good point. The whole "has done/will do/would have done" thing was usually ignored in the old series (he always met other time travelers like the Master and the Rani in the "right" order, as implausible as that seems), but the new one tends to be a lot more experimental with that sort of thing. Especially with the "Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey" guy at the helm.

Still, the Doctor explicitly says he needs to keep a lower profile from now on, so he suspects his enemies will know if he gets involved again.

And are we certain that the Silence want silence to fall? I took it as wordplay: we first heard it and thought literal silence will fall, but silence is the name of their organization. Is falling good for them? Doesn't it sound a little like a Roman saying "Rome will fall"?

[Thufir]

And are we certain that the Silence want silence to fall? I took it as wordplay: we first heard it and thought literal silence will fall, but silence is the name of their organization. Is falling good for them? Doesn't it sound a little like a Roman saying "Rome will fall"?

That's what Dorium said. That a better translation of the belief would be "Silence must fall," and that this is what the order are working towards. I can't see any ambiguity about it. The silence referred to is the Doctor's silence, brought about by his death.

[Starscream]

That's what Dorium said. That a better translation of the belief would be "Silence must fall," and that this is what the order are working towards. I can't see any ambiguity about it. The silence referred to is the Doctor's silence, brought about by his death.

Oh, I get it. Probably ought to re-watch that part. So they named themselves after what they want to achieve.

[The Extinguisher]

Well, his enemies are time travelers too. And they apparently know what he would have done had they not "killed" him. Presumably they have a pretty good handle on his personal timeline, and will know if something is up.

But yeah, good point. The whole "has done/will do/would have done" thing was usually ignored in the old series (he always met other time travelers like the Master and the Rani in the "right" order, as implausible as that seems), but the new one tends to be a lot more experimental with that sort of thing. Especially with the "Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey" guy at the helm.

Speaking of meeting other Time Lords. They usually meet in the same order, but has there ever been an instance where it has been X long for the Doctor, but Y long for the other Time Lord since they met? Maybe all Time Lords just exist in the same timeline as each other.

I don't know how this works for the Silence. I know in the New Series, the Doctor always runs into Daleks in the same order. Maybe it's just something all the really "Time Aware" species have?

[Xondoure]

Speaking of meeting other Time Lords. They usually meet in the same order, but has there ever been an instance where it has been X long for the Doctor, but Y long for the other Time Lord since they met? Maybe all Time Lords just exist in the same timeline as each other.

I don't know how this works for the Silence. I know in the New Series, the Doctor always runs into Daleks in the same order. Maybe it's just something all the really "Time Aware" species have?

Or simply the writers not bothering to play with the time aspect. Which up until Moffat took the helm bothered me about New Who too.

[dehro]

mmmh, two minor points
I'm not entirely certain that we now know "the question that must not be answered and is hidden in plain sight".. namely

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"dr.who?", according to Blueface Whatshisname..

if it were just that, and uttering the answer caused massive head-ache/end-of-time/disruption-of-reality... this would have happened a long time ago already, since River Song says just that, in the Doctor's ear, the first time they meet (well..the first time in the Dr.'s timeline).
this brings me to point nr 2.. we're going to see more of Dr. River Song (funny how she's a doctor too.. in many ways the way the doctor is a doctor).. because she still has to be told his name.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

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You can even tell me that they killed off Madame Kovorkian without ever really bothering to characterize her.

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Is she even dead though? I mean, River called it an aborted timeline and Amy only remembers because of her time crack wibbly wobbly powers.

[Kato]

[...]we're going to see more of Dr. River Song (funny how she's a doctor too.. in many ways the way the doctor is a doctor).. because she still has to be told his name.

I don't think there was everr any reasonable doubt about that, was there? They just got married, of course there will be more of them.
As for the other thing... I don't think some mystic force will break the universe apart if the question is asked but it will lead in the wrong contect or if known by the wrong people to disaster. That's just my take on it, anyway.

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Is she even dead though? I mean, River called it an aborted timeline and Amy only remembers because of her time crack wibbly wobbly powers.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that either. Though, I'm really not sure. Might turn out either way and I'd not be able to pick one of the two.

[Foeofthelance]

This is basically what I think.

As long as everybody believes he is dead, they will react as if he actually is. Whatever history says happened next will still happen.

The fun part is going to be seeing how this changes the Doctor's MO. Had a moment of Fridge Brilliance when I went back and watched Closing Time again. In that story the Doctor tries not to get involved and absolutely can't resist.

It's in his very nature to fight evil. As that episode puts it, "I'm here to help". He can't just walk away. Now the entire universe thinks he's dead, and he needs to let history takes its course as if he actually is. If he changes anything (or at the very least allows word to get out that he changed it), there will be trouble. Best case scenario is that his enemies learn he is still alive and come after him again. Worst case...well, worst case is pretty much certain to happen. The Question will be asked. Silence will fall. Whatever that means.

In a sense, every point is history is now a fixed point for him, because he's not allowed to interfere. And he will. Hell yes, he will. I'm looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

I'm not so sure myself. The Doctor knows he can't avoid helping people. Its his very nature, and honestly probably not something he would ever truly want to avoid. On the other hand, he has also been very quick to announce his presence up to this date. Hell, he defeated the Vashnarada by the simple act of telling them to look him up! Any time he finds an alien race doing naughty things because they're in dire straits his default response is, "Stop this, let me help, I'm the Doctor and you know I'm good for it." He's never made an issue of hiding his identity.

Now? I bet he introduces himself as John Smith more often. Maybe finally take a day off to fix the Chameleon Arch. Future History doesn't become a fixed moment for him, he just needs to be more clever than he has been.

[Serenity]

mmmh, two minor points
I'm not entirely certain that we now know "the question that must not be answered and is hidden in plain sight".. namely

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"dr.who?", according to Blueface Whatshisname..

if it were just that, and uttering the answer caused massive head-ache/end-of-time/disruption-of-reality... this would have happened a long time ago already, since River Song says just that, in the Doctor's ear, the first time they meet (well..the first time in the Dr.'s timeline).
this brings me to point nr 2.. we're going to see more of Dr. River Song (funny how she's a doctor too.. in many ways the way the doctor is a doctor).. because she still has to be told his name.

Again, as Dorium say, the danger of the question and its answer belong to a specific place and time in history, the Fields of Trenzelore at the Fall of the Eleventh, where lies and obfuscation will be, for reasons yet unknown, impossible. We don't know exactly what bad thing will happen when the question is asked and answered there, but it may well have to do with who is there to hear it, or the reason it's dangerous may not be apparent until that time.

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And besides, the answer to the question "Doctor Who?" is not necessarily the Doctor's name. It could be some secret about his past or true nature.

[Weezer]

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And besides, the answer to the question "Doctor Who?" is not necessarily the Doctor's name. It could be some secret about his past or true nature.

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That's what I was thinking too. Who the Doctor is isn't his name and never really has been. I have a feeling that the answer is something far more fundamental about him.

[Starscream]

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That's what I was thinking too. Who the Doctor is isn't his name and never really has been. I have a feeling that the answer is something far more fundamental about him.

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Same here. I wonder if Moffat was a fan of the 7th Doctor's run. Towards the end, they seemed to be building up to some sort of world-shaking revelation about him, that would change everything...and then the show was canceled.

It'd be cool if the plan was to resurrect this idea over 20 years later.

[The Extinguisher]

On that note:

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The Doctor is the Other.
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other

He recognized Rassilon at the end of The End of Time. It would be a pretty good reveal, and seems like something they would do, make him one of the first Time Lords.

[Weezer]

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Same here. I wonder if Moffat was a fan of the 7th Doctor's run. Towards the end, they seemed to be building up to some sort of world-shaking revelation about him, that would change everything...and then the show was canceled.

It'd be cool if the plan was to resurrect this idea over 20 years later.

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You're referring to the Cartmel Master plan, right? That seems somewhat plausible, especially since it would make sense that Moffat has access to whatever notes the BBC had from Cartmel's era.

[dehro]

I don't think there was everr any reasonable doubt about that, was there? They just got married, of course there will be more of them.

well..yes and no.. we know they've kinda gone in opposite directions, timewise.. now the doctor has seen her die-been born-grow up-marry him.. and she's seen him for the last time (when she dies).. and for the first time..when she's born..so..technically, they've kinda come full circle a couple of times already.
which makes her role not so fundamental anymore..by which I mean they could do without her if they wanted to. (not that I'd like that, since I like the character)

then again..if he's bluffed his death..does she still get to go to prison?

[Kato]

well..yes and no.. we know they've kinda gone in opposite directions, timewise.. now the doctor has seen her die-been born-grow up-marry him.. and she's seen him for the last time (when she dies).. and for the first time..when she's born..so..technically, they've kinda come full circle a couple of times already.
which makes her role not so fundamental anymore..by which I mean they could do without her if they wanted to. (not that I'd like that, since I like the character)

then again..if he's bluffed his death..does she still get to go to prison?

Yeah,,, but that 'meet in reverse' only applied to their first/last meeting obviously... would be the weirdest romance ever otherwise. It would have been interesting but obviously they didn't follow it through.

Well, they have to keep pretending he's dead. So yes, she probably even has to admit it in court or something. Whatever court os responsible for that.

[dehro]

would be the weirdest romance ever otherwise.

wait..are you saying it isn't?
I'm pretty sure the Ponds would like to differ

[Mauve Shirt]

Wait wait wait... what happens to the tiny people, including tiny Doctor, when they cremate Robot Doctor? Also, could the tiny people fake a regeneration? Well, I guess they could, since they did.

[Kato]

Wait wait wait... what happens to the tiny people, including tiny Doctor, when they cremate Robot Doctor? Also, could the tiny people fake a regeneration? Well, I guess they could, since they did.

Uhm... I assume the robot could withstand the heat... and then sank into the lake. Or maybe they were beamed up. It's a robot with mini people in it. As for the regeneration... I would redirct you to the post with Moffat's answer but in short: It can shape shift, shrink people and make crazy lights, why would it not be able to make crazy regeneration lights?