Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Sunken Valley]

Expected. No companion has lasted more than three years (maybe Sarah Jane or Leela lasted longer, K9 don't count). Good to hear. Karen Gillan is annoying. And if Rory spent long time on the show he'd get bad ass decay. But if they get rid of the Ponds, they ought to dispose of the last Pond. RIVER! If they get rid of the good ponds and keep the bad one (in terms of character, in actors Karen is the bad Pond) I won't be happy.

[Kobold-Bard]

... But if they get rid of the Ponds, they ought to dispose of the last Pond. RIVER! If they get rid of the good ponds and keep the bad one (in terms of character, in actors Karen is the bad Pond) I won't be happy.

[KillianHawkeye]

Expected. No companion has lasted more than three years (maybe Sarah Jane or Leela lasted longer, K9 don't count). Good to hear. Karen Gillan is annoying. And if Rory spent long time on the show he'd get bad ass decay. But if they get rid of the Ponds, they ought to dispose of the last Pond. RIVER! If they get rid of the good ponds and keep the bad one (in terms of character, in actors Karen is the bad Pond) I won't be happy.

I don't care if she's a bad actress. She's smokin' hot!

[Starscream]

While she probably has at least a couple more appearances lined up, I do get the feeling that River's story is winding down now.

We saw her birth, a bit of her childhood, how she became "River" instead of Melody, how she fell for the Doctor, how she married him, how she "killed" him, a few of her adventures between stints in prison, and how she died.

Basically her whole life story has been laid out for us at this point. She was an interesting character, because we were viewing the events of her life out of order, which led to a lot of questions about her. And Moffat loves raising questions (he likes answering them noticeably less).

But now we're pretty much out of questions regarding River. All the major mysteries have been dealt with. Unless there are some new facets of her story that have yet to be hinted at, any subsequent appearances will probably just feature her as a normal companion. No more "Spoilers". And I think Moffat created her specifically to screw with our heads, so now that she can't why bother?

[Androgeus]

It's definitely good that we'll be getting another companion for 11 to play off. Also to be a smart arse, Tegan was a companion for longest real time, 3 days shy of 3 years, beating Sarah Jane who was 3 weeks shy of 3 years. Jamie has the most episodes if that is also important. Obviously the TARDIS beats all these if you consider it/her a companion

[KillianHawkeye]

Obviously the TARDIS beats all these if you consider it/her a companion

Well it wouldn't be much of a show if The Doctor had to find a new time machine every 2-3 years.

[Fortuna]

Actually, that'd be kinda funny.

And I totally agree that River needs to go. I am so very sick of River. I will buy a plane ticket and a knife purely to kill Moffat if she plays a pivotal role in the next season.

[Weezer]

Actually, that'd be kinda funny.

And I totally agree that River needs to go. I am so very sick of River. I will buy a plane ticket and a knife purely to kill Moffat if she plays a pivotal role in the next season.

I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but I agree, the show seems to have completed both Amy/Rory's and River's archs to the extent that we really need something new. Hopefully we get a few episodes at the beginning of the season with Smith going at it solo, with Amy and Rory then showing up for a while and then leaving mid-season to then be quickly replaced by a new person. Assuming they do the same mid-season split this time (which I hope they don't, merely from a patience perspective) maybe Christmas special + 2 episodes alone, 4 episodes w/ Amy and Rory finishing with them leaving at the 6th episode mid-season 'climax'. The new companion can then come on when the show starts up again, and have half a season to settle in before the season ends.

[Fortuna]

It's not that I never want to see River again (but please, Moffat, please...) so much as that she has played significant roles in the past two season finales and was the keystone of both the mid-season ender and beginner. I'm sick of River being that important. If she appears again, I'll be unhappy but I probably won't mind too much. If she plays a critical role, however, I most definitely will.

[Dienekes]

I might be in a minority here, but I actually liked River. She was amusing, and I enjoyed seeing her story develop and get pieced together. Yeah, she was completely a Sue, almost as much as the Doctor himself. But that said, I do agree she shouldn't be a focus in the next season. Just like I didn't want the Daleks to even make an appearance last season. They need time to rest and not be the main focus.

[Kato]

I also like River but I guess I can see why some people don't I don't get the exaggerated hatref she seems to get. Yeah, she was rather prominent the last seasons. So what? She-who-shall-not-be-named was important for like... all of RTD's run. Yes, I complain about her but I often notice people complaining about River but not her. And I think River is the much more interesting character but that's because how Moffat set her up. It's a unique thing to Who as far as I can recall (Maybe except for Jack in a way) and she is close to the Doctor's level what she needs to be to be his equal and not his fangirl. I'm sure she will be back next season, and I won't mind as long as she doesn't get worse than she was before. Also, Kingston is a good actress, imo.
Rory and Amy... I think we won't see too much off them even though I liked them they have been around for quite a while and more would be too much, maybe.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I also like River but I guess I can see why some people don't I don't get the exaggerated hatref she seems to get. Yeah, she was rather prominent the last seasons. So what? She-who-shall-not-be-named was important for like... all of RTD's run. Yes, I complain about her but I often notice people complaining about River but not her. And I think River is the much more interesting character but that's because how Moffat set her up. It's a unique thing to Who as far as I can recall (Maybe except for Jack in a way) and she is close to the Doctor's level what she needs to be to be his equal and not his fangirl. I'm sure she will be back next season, and I won't mind as long as she doesn't get worse than she was before. Also, Kingston is a good actress, imo.
Rory and Amy... I think we won't see too much off them even though I liked them they have been around for quite a while and more would be too much, maybe.

We [me] do not talk about Rose here.
Rose is annoying.
Very.

Doing something special for Christmas that resulted in me having a literal knee jerk reaction when my honorary cousin Rose was mentioned.
The Doctor is very much an ultimate Sue, and River can get on one's tits, but Rose is . . .
Well.
If RTD was straight I think Rose would be his ideal woman. Or if Rose was a man.
Oddly, I think M!Rose would be less annoying than Rose Rose.

IRN (In Related News):
The Master should not have a beard.
Not unless he's the Master who watches The Clangers. Nor should he wear chav clothes.

And demn! Those collars!

Now speculate away as to what this thread's Christmas present could be.

If it pleases your fancy.

[Sunken Valley]

Misunderstanding has ocurred. I do think River should be in Season 7. just in a more "supportive" role like past companions have. Not a dominating role like she served in the past seasons. And my only problem would be if Amy and Rory left but they kept River. Ponds stay together till the end. Personally I think they should clear the decks completely in 2013. 50th anniversary= New Doctor, New companion. Matt, Arthur and Moffat move to greener acting pastures, Alex gets a revitalised career (the river character would have been fun if not for other details) and Karen appears in more "15" material.

And here is why we like Rose but not River. Rose was an afflicted sue, River was a natural sue. Now I've compared DW companions to werewolves. Well they did both imprint on the Doctor. Rose was not a sue in Season 1, agreed. However, there was a conumdrum. They could not kill off Rose that Season. Why? They wanted a more light hearted Doctor and his companion dying would make him darker (like Eccleston and Smith). It was against the character of Rose and the Doctor to part ways willingly. Rose was a popular companion and it was too dangerous to kill her off. So they kept her. This is where the Sue stuff comes in. You may have heard accusations of the Kung-fu Panda 2 being a sue. This was because Po had a complete character development cycle. Rose had done all her development and was a fully developed character. Thus she felt like a sue as she had no problems or flaws. She also had a frightening control over the Doctor. This is natural. She saved the Doctor from a dark place (the massive BSOD after seeing the destruction of his people) and the Doctor owed her massively and trusted her judgement. She was only really a sue because she expended her life span and went on a bit longer than she should. And she also didn't do as much in S4 as is hyped. That was more just a fun idea "all the companions are coming together! Must not forget Rose"

River on the other hand, was instrumental to the point of annoying. The character of River was clever because it was an older woman in a sexual and action girl role. However, River quickly became a sue because she not only did things which altered history on purpose (carving on the oldest rock in the universe for example), nobody argued with her and everyone though she was fantastic (whenever they arrived in a new place, almost everyone paid no attention to Rose or dismissed her as thick), had a confusing back story (the daughter of the first married couple on the TARDIS, half time lord due to concievement on the TARDIS, brainwashed to kill Dr but miraculously snapped out of it, taught how to time travel by the TARDIS (did we ever get an explanation on how that worked) and able to alter reality by choosing not to shoot the Doctor (how the hell did she choose not to shoot the Doctor anyway? The suit gave her no choice but to do so)). When you add in that when she shows up, the Doctor is essentially demoted to guest star and that Stephen Moffat's writing has deteriorated (the best episodes of this season according to most reviews of S6 DVD were Doctor's Wife, Girl Who Waited (which I resent cause it's an idiot plot) and God complex, none of which were Moffat's) seals the coffin. Rose earned her control of the Doctor and annoyingness. The only reason why River's "oh so special" is because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like Secret of NIMH 2. Conclusively, there's only room for one sue in DW, and that's the Doctor.

[comicshorse]

Now speculate away as to what this thread's Christmas present could be.

If it pleases your fancy.

Santa,
I want a puppy and a X-box and a train and a dalek and a bicycle and a Kindle and the rest of the 'Genesis of the Daleks ' review

[Androgeus]

IRN (In Related News):
The Master should not have a beard.
Not unless he's the Master who watches The Clangers. Nor should he wear chav clothes.

And demn! Those collars!

Now speculate away as to what this thread's Christmas present could be.

If it pleases your fancy.

Well going by your hints, and the fact it's Christmas and the first episode that TARDIS wiki gives when hitting the random page button I have to say Timelash
that took way too long

[zingbat]

I might be in a minority here, but I actually liked River.

I like River, too... for the most part. However, I also want her to fade into the background for the next season. I'd have no problem with her showing up for a couple of adventures, but I really don't want her to be central to the arc.

[Weezer]

I like River, too... for the most part. However, I also want her to fade into the background for the next season. I'd have no problem with her showing up for a couple of adventures, but I really don't want her to be central to the arc.

I'm with you, an occasional pop up here and there (perhaps at the level Martha did in Turn Left) would be great, I love the character but being the center to the plot for a whole season and a major enigma for two others is enough for now.

[Gilphon]

Of course, it's not like there's any real mystery left to River's character, now. So that limits the kinds of stories we can have centred around her.

[Friv]

And here is why we like Rose but not River. Rose was an afflicted sue, River was a natural sue. Now I've compared DW companions to werewolves. Well they did both imprint on the Doctor. Rose was not a sue in Season 1, agreed. However, there was a conumdrum. They could not kill off Rose that Season. Why? They wanted a more light hearted Doctor and his companion dying would make him darker (like Eccleston and Smith). It was against the character of Rose and the Doctor to part ways willingly. Rose was a popular companion and it was too dangerous to kill her off. So they kept her. This is where the Sue stuff comes in. You may have heard accusations of the Kung-fu Panda 2 being a sue.

While I agree that Rose wasn't a Sue until the end of Season 1, she was already godawful annoying. I was tired of her by Boom Town, because she was a super-whiny useless entitled character who ignored how amazing everyone around her was to her in order to take them for granted and harp on their flaws.

It wasn't until the New Earth episode of Season 2 that I had any respect for Billie Piper, because that was the episode where I discovered that she actually could act, meaning that the way she was behaving as Rose was what RTD actually wanted.

(Sidenote: Yeah, River was a bit of a Sue. I enjoyed her anyway, but I will be happy to have her fade back into the background a bit if she does so. One or two non-critical episodes next year for her would be about the right number.)

[Dienekes]

While I agree that Rose wasn't a Sue until the end of Season 1, she was already godawful annoying. I was tired of her by Boom Town, because she was a super-whiny useless entitled character who ignored how amazing everyone around her was to her in order to take them for granted and harp on their flaws.

It wasn't until the New Earth episode of Season 2 that I had any respect for Billie Piper, because that was the episode where I discovered that she actually could act, meaning that the way she was behaving as Rose was what RTD actually wanted.

(Sidenote: Yeah, River was a bit of a Sue. I enjoyed her anyway, but I will be happy to have her fade back into the background a bit if she does so. One or two non-critical episodes next year for her would be about the right number.)

This I can agree with. I've been re-watching the first series with my dad and honestly the high part of her career as a companion was the first episode. She had some good banter, was usefully intelligent, and a little awesome. She starts to get annoying the very next episode and it sort of rolls downhill from there.

[dehro]

soo....I've kinda lost touch with things here..when is the christmas special actually airing?

[KillianHawkeye]

soo....I've kinda lost touch with things here..when is the christmas special actually airing?

On Christmas.........

[dehro]

On Christmas.........

I would feel extremely stupid right now, except I can claim ignorance on account of never having been in BBC range on christmas and only having watched reruns or streaming versions of the specials

but yeah..pretty dumb of me

[Weezer]

I would feel extremely stupid right now, except I can claim ignorance on account of never having been in BBC range on christmas and only having watched reruns or streaming versions of the specials

but yeah..pretty dumb of me

Well as someone who isn't British, the idea of airing a major television special on Christmas just seems odd, who watches TV on Christmas?

[Thufir]

Well as someone who isn't British, the idea of airing a major television special on Christmas just seems odd, who watches TV on Christmas?

Why wouldn't you watch TV on Christmas? It's something you can do together, as a family, just like you're supposed to. Generally there will be a lot of Christmassy films on, Christmas specials for some shows, and so on. Oh, and the Queen's speech, for the more old-fashioned of us.

[Sunken Valley]

Hey guys I found a gaping hole in Madam Korvarian and her overlords logic!

They need River to kill the Doctor yes? But they didn't. The suit did all the work. They knew the only time they could kill the Doctor was on 22/4/11, Utah. River wasn't even willing. The suit powered her entirely and it was implied that it could not be controlled by her (although she did stop it in WORS, which was never explained). So therefore, why could they not get anyone in the suit. Amy, Rory, a mook, anyone could have been in the suit and shot the Doctor. Why did they need River at all?

[Starscream]

Hey guys I found a gaping hole in Madam Korvarian and her overlords logic!

They need River to kill the Doctor yes? But they didn't. The suit did all the work. They knew the only time they could kill the Doctor was on 22/4/11, Utah. River wasn't even willing. The suit powered her entirely and it was implied that it could not be controlled by her (although she did stop it in WORS, which was never explained). So therefore, why could they not get anyone in the suit. Amy, Rory, a mook, anyone could have been in the suit and shot the Doctor. Why did they need River at all?

It's a Stable Time Loop.

They live in the future. The history books say the Doctor was killed at that place, at that time, by that person. But she'd hardly do so on her own, so they made it happen.

What they didn't know was that the history books were wrong, and that their meddling caused the Doctor to encounter the Tesselecta, which gave him a way to weasel out of it.

But at long as he keeps his head down and doesn't reveal what really happened, everyone will continue to react as if he died. They will probably just assume any future appearances took place in his "past".

[Kobold-Bard]

Well as someone who isn't British, the idea of airing a major television special on Christmas just seems odd, who watches TV on Christmas?

Being sat around the tv half-watching stuff on Christmas Day is part of the Britlander Christmas tradition.

[Weezer]

Being sat around the tv half-watching stuff on Christmas Day is part of the Britlander Christmas tradition.

I guessed that, simply by the numbers that tend to tune into the Christmas special. It's just different from American tradition, my family takes naps instead

[Kobold-Bard]

I guessed that, simply by the numbers that tend to tune into the Christmas special. It's just different from American tradition, my family takes naps instead

So do a lot of mine, they just happen to do it on the couch & pointed at the tv.