Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Eldan]

On plotholes:

Spoiler

Show

Nobody noticed the plot hole. HOWCOME MADGE CAN HEAR THE DOCTOR THROUGH THE SPEAKERS ON THE ROBOT? AND HOWCOME SHE CAN CLEARLY TELL HIM HE'S FIRED WHEN SHE'S IN A ROBOT AND HE'S IN A TOWER. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IF THE FAMILY OPENED THE PRESENT ON CHRISTMAS DAY, THEY'D HAVE DIED IN THE ACID RAIN.

They actually handwaved both of those facts:
First, the crew said they would establish an audio link. Second, the doctor said time was different on the other side of the portal, so, most likely, by the next morning, the forest would be long gone and molten down. Perhaps also regrown.

Much bigger plothole?
"It's not a building. It's wood, disguised as a building."

Then why didn't the acid specifically designed to melt buildings damage it at all?

[Sunken Valley]

Spoiler

Show

Time was different in that it was 1941 and 5353 on different sides. Not that it flowed differently. Was the woman crew member trained to open the audio link? And was it two-way? But yeah, that wood thing is a problem.

[Eldan]

Spoiler

Show

Ï think he mentioned that the little boy was way ahead of them despite just going in because the flow of time was different across the portal. I think.

[Cheesegear]

So, I was disappointed. Definitely one of the weaker Christmas episodes I've ever seen. There was kind of a big deal about Bill Bailey being in it, at least as far as fan hype goes. And then he shows up for all of five minutes. I guess that's the thing that annoys me the most.

[Avaris]

Spoiler

Show

Ï think he mentioned that the little boy was way ahead of them despite just going in because the flow of time was different across the portal. I think.

Spoiler

Show

You're right. We saw the boy grabbing his torch to go back into the box just as the Doctor turned up, but when the other two went through they were 20 mins behind.

On the acid rain note, I assume part of the Doctor's making sure it was ready would be to check the environemnt was safe

[ShinyCap]

Got a TARDIS for christmas. Happy Holidays.

Really? I got two.

...my mom knitted TARDIS gloves for me. They're awesome.

[Goosefeather]

Spoiler

Show

Ï think he mentioned that the little boy was way ahead of them despite just going in because the flow of time was different across the portal. I think.

Yup, it was one of the more obvious parts of the Narnia parallel.

Spoiler

Show

In 'the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe', the four children grow to adults in Narnia, yet when they travel back barely 5 minutes have passed in our world.

[LokeyITP]

Sunken Valley:

1) David Morrissey was great (granted it was a great role), as were at least the first 30-40 minutes of Next Doctor.

2) C'mon, there were bigger plot holes than that :) Like I said, I found most things handwaved well except for how the Dr knew to be there.

Also anyone with Narnia cred going to help with tone/pacing of the inspiration? Something does feel a bit off (it could just be Moffat trying to shoehorn too much in).

[factotum]

Yeah, if you're talking plotholes, I would have thought the more obvious one is:

Spoiler

Show

The Doctor throws himself out of an exploding spacecraft and skydives down to Earth in a spacesuit, yet somehow manages to land within a few miles of the TARDIS? Even more unbelievable when you consider he had the helmet on backwards and couldn't see a thing!

[Mercenary Pen]

"Suddenly those last nine hundred years of time travel seem less safe." ROFLYSST.

[spoiler]I do not know what these letters stand for.
I mean, I assum "Roll on floor laughing your S S T," but what are the SST?

I can clear this up- its a reference to a piece by Bill Bailey entitled Internet Love Song (I haven't linked it due to language that is censored on the forums)

The acronym stands for:

Spoiler

Show

Rolling on the Floor Laughing Yet Somehow Still Typing.

[Sunken Valley]

Yeah, if you're talking plotholes, I would have thought the more obvious one is:

Spoiler

Show

The Doctor throws himself out of an exploding spacecraft and skydives down to Earth in a spacesuit, yet somehow manages to land within a few miles of the TARDIS? Even more unbelievable when you consider he had the helmet on backwards and couldn't see a thing!

I know, plus he was in outer space for a while and he should have exploded instantly. This is Dr Who not Dr AE.

Hi Lokey, thank you for using your third post to speak to me. I used my third post on the last thread of Dr Who as well. I never said Morrisey was bad. He was the one thing that saved it. But the mother from outnumbered isn't a big enough presence and not enough experience to salvage this one.

Also, Armstrong followed her home every day. Followed her home every day? That is called a creep.

6/10. My rating has fallen

[Aidan305]

I know, plus he was in outer space for a while and he should have exploded instantly. This is Dr Who not Dr AE.

Technically, you don't explode. But whenever strange scenarios such as this crop up (And I don't believe it's the first time in Dr Who) I generally just chalk it up to alien physiology.

Also, Armstrong followed her home every day. Followed her home every day? That is called a creep.

I thought that as well. Eh, different strokes.

[comicshorse]

On plotholes:

Spoiler

Show

Much bigger plothole?
"It's not a building. It's wood, disguised as a building."

Then why didn't the acid specifically designed to melt buildings damage it at all?

Spoiler

Show

The Doctor said it would melt the building but it would take some time. Perhaps because it was thicker than the trees or the shape meant hte acid flowed off it more quickly and so it got less exposure

Generally ok but mostly forgettable and Bill Bailey was completely wasted and (personal nitpick) why is it always a fuel source ? There are other valuable things it could

[LokeyITP]

Hi Lokey, thank you for using your third post to speak to me. I used my third post on the last thread of Dr Who as well. I never said Morrisey was bad. He was the one thing that saved it. But the mother from outnumbered isn't a big enough presence and not enough experience to salvage this one.

My previous account was Lokey, but the board ate it (technical-wechnical stuff). I've been saying you're wrong a few times in this thread for the last little bit :)

Also it's a shame that now that I'm actually caught up on Who, there isn't that much to dig into. I guess I need to find the first Sherlock series since the 2nd is supposedly, maybe, possibly going to air in my country sometime next year.

[Weezer]

My previous account was Lokey, but the board ate it (technical-wechnical stuff). I've been saying you're wrong a few times in this thread for the last little bit :)

Also it's a shame that now that I'm actually caught up on Who, there isn't that much to dig into. I guess I need to find the first Sherlock series since the 2nd is supposedly, maybe, possibly going to air in my country sometime next year.

Now you should dig into classic who, Dr. Simon has been doing a season by season review, he's up to the 3rd Doctor I think. Here's the latest of his posts

I personally thing City of Death is a great intro to Classic Who, it features Tom Baker in his prime (he's my Doctor) and captures all that is great in classic who while avoiding the more egregious things that tend to pop up in Classic Who.

[Xondoure]

Sunken Valley review

Spoiler

Show

Overall opinion on ep

Spoiler

Show

Was a decent ep. But it was forgetable. A lot of Christmas Specials could be accused of being forgettable but they had something which protected them from this. Christmas invasion had Tennant soaking up the atmosphere. Runaway Bride had Cathrine Tate. Kylie Minogue special had her. Next Doctor (the most forgettable special) had David Morrisey and the controversy that he would bump off Tennant. The other 3 specials had their guest stars interacting with Tennant (James Bond!) and tennant saying goodbye. Christmas Carol was the one special which had a good plot and that also had Gambon and Jenkins. This... none of the guest stars interacted with the Doctor except Claire Skinner. And who is Claire Skinner? I've never heard of her. This Christmas Special was bland!

Oh well, means Sherlock will be good.

Stuff I liked

Spoiler

Show

The Doctor being mad as usual. Although it is getting tired.

Hammocks!

The mother ship was good, although it's not as clever as "only water in the forest is the River"

Loved the pond scene at the end.

Stuff I didn't like

Spoiler

Show

The wooden monarchs were too much like Smilers and Ood in that their threat level was totally negated by their good alignment.

Bill bailey should have had more screen time. And met the Doctor

Nobody noticed the plot hole. HOWCOME MADGE CAN HEAR THE DOCTOR THROUGH THE SPEAKERS ON THE ROBOT? AND HOWCOME SHE CAN CLEARLY TELL HIM HE'S FIRED WHEN SHE'S IN A ROBOT AND HE'S IN A TOWER. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IF THE FAMILY OPENED THE PRESENT ON CHRISTMAS DAY, THEY'D HAVE DIED IN THE ACID RAIN.

It wasn't all that Narnia.

I do not like the intense emphasis of using children in the eps. Sure it hadn't been done at all before nu-who and little done before Moffat took the throne but it's getting dull. If I was a kid, I would not want to see kids interacting with the Doctor. I'd want to see grownups doing cool stuff and trading banter, like in Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Rusty eps of Doctor Who, OOTS and all those comic book movies. If I did see films with kids in them, I'd want the kids doing cool stuff and imagining I was one of them, like Spy Kids and Harry Potter. This is just Troll in Central Park level sickly. If you are going to aim at kids, have the dad die for real at the end.

I didn’t like the Dad coming back at the end. At all. This ep is obviously aimed squarely at kids after the darkness of Season 6 (Almost People was almost 15). But you should teach them to confront death seriously and say that no, daddy’s not coming back. I know that other Doctor Who eps have already tackled this but this has a new angle. The mother lied to her children. This was correctly labelled a bad thing. But the message is completely negated because she never did fully tell the truth, because dad came back. She just confused her children and then everything was all right again. This was a perfect time to teach children to just move on. Missed opportunity.

Rating: 7/10

Spoiler

Show

An audiolink was established earlier. And time was running much faster on their side than the other. The forest would have been there (the doctor probably was counting on them entering sometime christmas morning meaning he would have checked what it would look like at that point in time not earlier.

As for the dad coming back I saw it coming from the very beginning. It's a christmas special with time travel of course it was all going to sort itself out.

[Helanna]

I know, plus he was in outer space for a while and he should have exploded instantly. This is Dr Who not Dr AE.

Hi Lokey, thank you for using your third post to speak to me. I used my third post on the last thread of Dr Who as well. I never said Morrisey was bad. He was the one thing that saved it. But the mother from outnumbered isn't a big enough presence and not enough experience to salvage this one.

Also, Armstrong followed her home every day. Followed her home every day? That is called a creep.

6/10. My rating has fallen

When they showed him following her home, I got the feeling it was more of him just walking her home every day, which she liked and appreciated. I don't find that creepy - it's not like he was stalking her, hiding behind trees and stuff.

The beginning . . . I wasn't a fan of. Come on, I suspend a lot of disbelief for Doctor Who, but that was just plain ridiculous (and very poorly CGI'd). Ignoring the first five minutes though, I liked the rest of the episode - kinda bland and the plot was a bit thin (and very telegraphed), but overall it was nice and sweet and that's all I really want out of a Christmas special.

[Thufir]

I know, plus he was in outer space for a while and he should have exploded instantly. This is Dr Who not Dr AE.

Actually it takes 30 sexonds before you die from being in a complete vacuum (Things you learn from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), and the Doctor wouldn't have been immediately in a complete vacuum because the air in the ship would be leaving it at the same time he was.
So, that's all fine so long as he put the spacesuit on quickly.

Also, Armstrong followed her home every day. Followed her home every day? That is called a creep.

Not if she liked him doing it? Which quite clearly she did, since they ended up very much in love and got married.


Also, as to the forest not being there if they opened the gift on christmas day as intended, I think people are missing the most obvious explanation. The Doctor didn't know about the acid rain.
I mean, come on, this is the Doctor we're talking about. He's haphazard about these things. When he first took Lily through he said "This is one of the safest planets I know! Nothing ever happens here!" Pretty sure the forest being destroyed by acid would have fallen into the category of something happening there.

@^: Actually, yeah, thinking about the beginning, it was kind of unnecessary. We didn't really need to see why the Doctor was falling from the sky in a spacesuit he had on backwards. We just accept that's the sort of thing which happens to the Doctor. The episode could perfectly well have started with Madge going about her normal life and then finding the Doctor and it really wouldn't have mattered.

[Goosefeather]

Good point, we're in media res as it is so why not skip the more nonsensical bit of it?

However, I think the beginning is mitigated somewhat if you watch the preview to the episode, which I actually found quite touching.

[grolim]

Yeah, if you're talking plotholes, I would have thought the more obvious one is:

Spoiler

Show

The Doctor throws himself out of an exploding spacecraft and skydives down to Earth in a spacesuit, yet somehow manages to land within a few miles of the TARDIS? Even more unbelievable when you consider he had the helmet on backwards and couldn't see a thing!

Spoiler

Show

Who says the Doctor landed within a few miles of the Tardis? It was probably more like the Tardis landed within a few miles of the Doctor.

[factotum]

and the Doctor wouldn't have been immediately in a complete vacuum because the air in the ship would be leaving it at the same time he was.

And he wouldn't have exploded even if he WAS in a complete vacuum for longer than 30 seconds--it's only in pulp SF that happens (yes, Outland, I'm talking about you here!).

[Starscream]

Actually it takes 30 sexonds before you die from being in a complete vacuum (Things you learn from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), and the Doctor wouldn't have been immediately in a complete vacuum because the air in the ship would be leaving it at the same time he was.
So, that's all fine so long as he put the spacesuit on quickly.

Time Lords have a "Respiratory Bypass System" that lets them go a while without air. No, really, this is canon.

[Kindablue]

The Nerdist Podcast interview with David Tennant. He talks about noodles and naughty Doctor Who fanfic.

[Kato]

I'm waaaaaay late to comment on the christmas special but I'll do it anyway.

Do I still need spoilers? I guess not. Will I use them? Yes, I will. Just to be sure.

Spoiler

Show

To be honest... I was a bit dissappointed. Maybe it is because I'm not a Narnia fan or because I'm not into the whole "getting teary eyed" stuff (most of the time) but a lot didn't work for me...
I won't go into details because I guess overall it was neat enough and I was pretty entertained all throughout but the plot as a whole just didn't do it for me... including the ending. Sorry, I don't want the dad to die or anything, I guess he was a nice man, but... heck, that really was way too unrealistic.
Given, it kind of negates my point when I say I liked last years special more when the TARDIS was used to change a person's whole life but... I just had much more fun last year. It wasn't terrible but... Dunno, it was some super awesome christmas present for me (possibly ALSO because I don't know Bill Bailey)

Also, I know I said Curly shouldn't overwork herself but we got only one review and it's the 29th already *sad*
Ah, well, enjoy your holidays! I hope you'll have more time next year!

[dehro]

why I really didn't like the christmas special:

Spoiler

Show

there was precious little special about it.
there was very little christmassy about it except for a bit of snow and dumb treefruity fruits shaped as christmas tree decorations.
the portal-gift didn't work for me..if you're going to create basically another tardis-like device for the sake of giving a present, why not put it in a proper/secure box, and why have it activate a full day earlier? it's moronic and counterintuitive.
what was the purpose of the fruit opening and morphing into the..king? was it just so he'd be followed? if so..what if the kid had used half a gramm of common sense and not been vandalising the tree ripping off the decoration? would it have fallen off? why did the other fruits grow at all and then just hang there?
how come nobody was cold when 3 out of 4 are in their pjs without a proper coat?
3 torches? really?
was cyril particularily stupid or do they really want us to believe kids behave that way, aren't scared by dark unknown places that close behind us, will let themselves be "driven" on a chair by scary monsters without saying a word or really trying to get away, will wander off in the dark of night in a place they cannot possibly hope to understand when most kinds would run to mama?? (yes, I know that's what happens in narnia too..but it was dumb then and is dumb now)
what's up with "waiting for mommy"??? where did that come from, when it had never before been estabilished that she'd "always come"?

madge is totaly unconcerned about people dropping from the sky and wearing gear that should at the very least look alien to her...yet she's also to the point enough to carry a gun through a portal, and somehow magically able to steer a piece of equipment that, in the words of someone who's used to seeing it, REQUIRES YEARS OF TRAINING
what was the point of the two wooden statues and their "strategy" to lure whoever they needed up to the tower? why not just grab people while they're at it? what if people act sensible for a change and don't climb the stairs ?
the whole reaction of madge towards being approached with the crowny thing was unconvincing

seriously..you've got bill bailey available and give him what... 3 minutes screen time? are you stupid? might a well have him flashing appletrees offscreen...if you're not going to use him to his potential.

all in all the plot hung together by a thread, and had to be pushed along by lame, unnatural, nonsensical actions by the different characters.
the ending was about as surprising as the fact that brown cows don't give chocolate milk. not really bad..didn't expect the daddy to stay dead, but still

this episode is just badly put together...like they couldn't make their minds up about having 60 minutes and what to do with them..either stretch a mediocre plot for a normal episode to double length or try to fit too many themes into one hour and in fact not giving enough depth to any of them...
xmas might as well have been taken out of the plot altogether, for what relevance it had.

they could've chosen someone else for the role of Cyril.. I'm sure there must be children out there who can actually act.. not that they've given him much to do anyway... but he could've at least pretended there was something going on around him, as he flattly recited what little lines he had.

I'm more than ready to suspend disbelief when it comes to Dr Who. that's what I usually do when I watch it..but this episode is just a bit too much to swallow. I'm not even going to try and compare it with last year's xmas special, which was so much better in so many ways it wouldn't make sense if I did. normally, when I watch the show late at night I'm much more forgiving.. because of sleep deprivation induced mellowness.
not this time

so, no..I'm not happy with it

[CoffeeIncluded]

Just popping in to say that the reason I flat-out refused to start watching Dr. Who while I was in college and chose to wait until break, despite the insistence of both my brother and roommate, was because I knew that once I started watching episodes, I'd get hooked and wouldn't be able to stop.

I was right.

[Sunken Valley]

they could've chosen someone else for the role of Cyril.. I'm sure there must be children out there who can actually act.. not that they've given him much to do anyway... but he could've at least pretended there was something going on around him, as he flattly recited what little lines he had.

Oh there are. But they spent the "child actor" budget on Laurence Belcher (young Kazran), Jamie Oram (psychic George), Elliot, Baby Melody, that wee kid who now has a flesh dad and of course Stormageddon. I want less children in Doctor Who!

I think the Wooden Monarchs were angling for someone willing. But it's an idiot plot. I think this ep will just slip into forgetfulness like the pirate ep (yeah that's right, I compared it to the pirate episode). It's not as infamous as love and monsters

[grolim]

Oh there are. But they spent the "child actor" budget on Laurence Belcher (young Kazran), Jamie Oram (psychic George), Elliot, Baby Melody, that wee kid who now has a flesh dad and of course Stormageddon. I want less children in Doctor Who!

Now I don't think they had to spend anything on Stormageddon to get him in the show. He is a DW fan and an donated some of his awesomeness to that episode. Plus, who would risk telling him no?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I'm just going to leave this here. (There's also a video of it, which is really really cool, but I'm not 100% sure it's okay for the board because it shows part of the surgery and while I'm not squeamish some people are.)

[Sunken Valley]

The Last Angry Geek, a reviwer on TGWTG, has reviewed Season 6 of Nu Who