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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Androgeus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Do not touch "Twin Dilemma"
    I will say that only one scene in Twin Dilemma is worth seeing. this one
    "Three blokes walk into a pub. One of them is a little bit stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
    Androgeus' 3 step guide to Doctor Who speculation:
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    1. Pick a random character
    2. State that person is The Rani
    3. goto 1

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

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    Doctor: No I must stop the monsters!

    George: No doctor you are the monsters.

    And then the Doctor was in the cupboard.


    ...also when does that guy plan on telling his wife that their son is a reality warping alien?


    Anyhow good episode, I like creepy who.
    Steamname: Atheist God, if you're lucky.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Simon View Post
    Don't tell anyone, but if you if you were to go to dailymotion.com and look for user tardismedia, you too can emulate my insane feat of watching the entire back catalogue of Classic Who.

    Assuming that you haven't already found it.

    And he hasn't got Genesis on there, thanks to spammers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    Well, actually he's been gradually transferring all the videos over to a different channel, but I'm pretty sure he's linked to it from tardismedia, so it's all fine.
    Thanks to you two, I'm now beginning the process of watching through Old Who. Thanks again!
    Add me on Steam!

    Amazing albatross avatar by the lovely and very talented Ceika

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    I have found my least favourite episode of this season so far. Why won't it end?!
    This has got to be the longest story I've seen in a long time.

    I'm only halfway through and it feels like I've been watching it for hours.
    I mean, I have, but I haven't. Shouldn't feel this long.
    When I'm done, I'm going to go check out the AI. This can't be having a high one, least not as high as the past few episodes.
    Dudes guys. The peeps who said this was a surprisingly good episode. Dudes.
    :smalldispassionate:

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    Quote Originally Posted by V'icternus View Post
    Why is it that you now scare me more than the possibility of nuclear war?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bath View Post
    To compare [Curly] to the beauty of the changing seasons or timeless stars would be an understatement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    But Koorly is the sweetest crime.

    Squid bones are lies.
    Bathatar!

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    I have found my least favourite episode of this season so far. Why won't it end?!
    This has got to be the longest story I've seen in a long time.

    I'm only halfway through and it feels like I've been watching it for hours.
    I mean, I have, but I haven't. Shouldn't feel this long.
    When I'm done, I'm going to go check out the AI. This can't be having a high one, least not as high as the past few episodes.
    Dudes guys. The peeps who said this was a surprisingly good episode. Dudes.
    :smalldispassionate:
    Curly, you're still alive! Thank goodness! Unless...the Dolls are puppeting Curly's account.

    I assume you are referring to Doctor's Daughter when you speak of this endless ep? Do not worry if you hate it. It is the last bad ep of season four. Then you get a train of awesome.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

    Unresolved Plot Point Collection Thread- For OOTS
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    It's nice to see someone saying it isn't for once, the forum IQ did just go up. Please have a cookie Sunken Valley.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry576 View Post
    I thought Sunken Valley eloquently covered the points I wanted to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, exactly.

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Thufir's Avatar

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    I assume you are referring to Doctor's Daughter when you speak of this endless ep? Do not worry if you hate it. It is the last bad ep of season four.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    In fact I will say that every ep in DW Season four is awesome. There is not a single bad ep.
    I spy an inconsistency here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_Ikari View Post
    *is too much awesome to behold*

    *runs awaaaaaay*
    Quote Originally Posted by Introbulus View Post
    Decent? Are you kidding? That is an epic win, good sir. *Shakes your hand*
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibar View Post
    Thufir I love the chess set and wish I had my own.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Actually, I didn't like this one much.

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    First of all, I've never been afraid of dolls. Throughout this episode, my prevailing thought was "this is silly. Such a silly monster. Why are they acting like these things are scary? They just look stupid". The entire design... when I first saw those dolls I had to laugh.

    Next... the plot felt pretty obvious. Kid is told to put things that scare him in the cupboard. People scare him and vanish (Man with scary dog. Lady breathing in a scary way). They end up in the cupboard. Kid has to be psychic. Ergo, kid is an alien, since this is doctor who. They still didn't explain anything, much. How did he do all that? Machines? Magic dollhouse? Psychic powers? Who knows!

    And "Dad hugged me, all's magically back to normal" felt forced and cheesy.
    Yeah, this pretty much covers it.
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    Wait.





    I spy an inconsistency here.
    Bad by Curly standards
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    She'll get a kick out of "Unicorn and the Wasp", she already likes the Library two-parter, "Midnight" will scare her, "Turn Left" is cool and the finale...well I think she'll agree with me on the S4 Finale's cool factor.
    . I just wasn't expecting her to dislike Doctor's Daughter, that's all.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

    Unresolved Plot Point Collection Thread- For OOTS
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    It's nice to see someone saying it isn't for once, the forum IQ did just go up. Please have a cookie Sunken Valley.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry576 View Post
    I thought Sunken Valley eloquently covered the points I wanted to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, exactly.

  9. - Top - End - #159
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Ehh there's still the bee episode which I'd place as on the lower end of the Who spectrum with one very funny scene.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Aidan305's Avatar

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    I have found my least favourite episode of this season so far. Why won't it end?!
    This has got to be the longest story I've seen in a long time.

    I'm only halfway through and it feels like I've been watching it for hours.
    I mean, I have, but I haven't. Shouldn't feel this long.
    When I'm done, I'm going to go check out the AI. This can't be having a high one, least not as high as the past few episodes.
    Dudes guys. The peeps who said this was a surprisingly good episode. Dudes.
    :smalldispassionate:
    Personally I quite enjoyed it. There were some elements I didn't find particularly interesting but on the whole it was fairly fun. I will agree that the episode tended to drag in places though.

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Koorly's Archive of Her Doctor Who Write Ups:
    Classic Who
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    Fourth Doctor
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    Series Twelve
    Genesis of the Daleks Part 1/6, Part 2/6

    Nu Who
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    Season One - retrospective

    Season Two - retrospective

    Season Three - blind unless otherwise mentioned
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    Ep. 1: 'Smith and Jones' -missing.
    Ep. 2: 'The Shakespeare Code'
    Ep. 3: 'Gridlock'
    Ep. 4: 'Daleks in Manhattan' (part 1/2)
    Ep. 5: 'Evolution of the Daleks' (part 2/2)
    Ep. 6: 'The Lazarus Experiment'
    Ep. 7: '42'
    Ep. 8: 'Human Nature' (part 1/2)
    Ep. 9: 'The Family of Blood' (part 2/2)
    Ep. 10: 'Blink'
    Ep. 11: 'Utopia' (part 1/3)
    Ep. 12: 'The Sound of the Drums' (part 2/3)
    Ep. 13: 'The Last of the Time Lords' (part 3/3)

    Children in Need 2007 episode: 'Time Crash'
    2007 Christmas Episode: 'Voyage of the Damned'

    Bits and Bobs About Season Three
    Retrospective - to be written later
    Why I Do Not Like Martha/Ten (This was written between my write ups of ep. 8 and ep 9)

    Season Four blind unless otherwise mentioned
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    Season 6 part 2
    Ep. 8: 'Let's Kill Hitler'
    Ep. 9: 'Night Terrors'
    Last edited by CurlyKitGirl; 2011-09-04 at 08:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by V'icternus View Post
    Why is it that you now scare me more than the possibility of nuclear war?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bath View Post
    To compare [Curly] to the beauty of the changing seasons or timeless stars would be an understatement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    But Koorly is the sweetest crime.

    Squid bones are lies.
    Bathatar!

  12. - Top - End - #162
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    CurlyKitGirl's Avatar

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Splitting it in half because it's twenty past two in the morning and I can't be bothered to cut out thirteen thousand characters, and honestly don't know how without a massive rewrite type thing. And I already did it once.
    I'll try to make the next one more concise.
    Apologies for length.

    The Nu Who Trek continues. And now, to boldly go where many have gone before. [*cue TNG theme (I love that theme song so much)*]

    'The Doctor’s Daughter‘ (Season Four, Episode Six)
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    I'm really not all that keen on this episode from the start. Martha's back. The Doctor know has a daughter who looks no more than five years older than me. And Martha's back.
    But an open mind must be kept somewhat, so permit me to console myself with one thing: at least it's not Rose. And we're not on Present Earth. Donna's still here. The Doctor's always fun. And I've scraped the button of the barrel.
    Cold open time.
    Divers alarums. Controls aren't working, and that's another close-up of the hand from 'The Christmas Invasion'. Donna's confused naturally, and upon hearing the story says possibly the most concise explanation of the Doctor ever: "[He is] completely impossible". It's also a perfect explanation. Four words, and the Doctor in a nutshell.
    T: "Impossible? Just a bit unlikely." Uhm. Na.
    So they've landed, and where has Sexy taken them? A tip. I'm having future flashbacks again. Any Ood?
    Oh hang on. Military types! "Drop your weapons!"
    T: "We're unarmed. No weapons. Never any weapons. We're safe." Oh you sanctimonious tit! What were you going to do less than a canon hour ago?! Use a weapon to destroy an entire Sontaran battle cruiser! You made a weapon. You were intent on using it no matter how much you hesitated. And you've used your sonic screwdriver and TARDIS as weapons before too. And other weapons. Like swords. Sastumas. Famous rivers. Words. Just because you don't often use weapons, and you don't like using them doesn't mean 'never' any weapons.
    Then the military sees that their hands are . . . hands? And they're taken for processing.
    Huh. Military groups, in the preview there were invaders. A war. Between humans and aliens. And the Doctor's over-stressy on the weapons issue. Hello 'The Sontaran Stratagem'/'The Poison Sky'. Now, when did those two last air? Two and one weeks previously. Talk about cack-handed series structure.
    So they put the Doctor's arm in a machine, and it hurts. That's a very noisy tissue sampler. And girl. Who is now armed. Where did the weapon's knowledge come from? T: "She's my daughter". No. No she's not. It took a tissue sample, and in your own words "sped up" some kind of process. A cloning process that went horribly wrong. Because the Doctor has never been a girl. He's been blond, but never a girl. Wearing make up. How did a clone get born wearing clothes (perfectly fitting clothes) and make up. Just look at those panda eyes and general eye shadow, lippie and so on. And where did she get her hairband from?
    Just because I want to hit that doesn't make her appearance any more plausible. The last two episodes did so much better with the cloning thing.
    How in the giggy giants of Gilgamesh did a clone machine turn a man into a woman? You can't programme form fitting clothing out of DNA. Or make up. Or whut.
    And I suppose I ought to mention this now. The girl playing the Doctor's clone is Georgia Moffett. Peter Davison's daughter. The Doctor's 'daughter' is literally the Doctor's daughter. Then she and David Tennant got engaged. They also have a daughter. The Doctor's daughter grew up, acted as the Doctor's daughter, married the Doctor and had the Doctor's daughter.
    Cloney: "Hello Dad." How does she know who her 'father' is? Why are her eyebrows perfectly plucked? Does this mean Cloney is a Time Lady? Well, that just puts River Song to shame then, takes away part of her uniqueness. Not. Because while River was introduced in this series, she's still relevant and an interesting character. And I highly doubt you'll be coming back. And does this mean Cloney's going to have regenerations too?
    Intro!
    The more I think about Cloney the more I get confused by her very existence. By its own nature it should be identical to the Doctor, like when the pot of flesh in the Ganger two-parter took a skin sample from the Doctor and gave us a duplicate Doctor in shape, form and personality. Not sure why he got clothes either now that I think of it. And last episode Clone!MtM was born from bubbly green with no clothes on, and I don't know where she liberated Martha's clothes from either. I mean, seeing a gooey naked Martha walking around would draw some attention.
    I know it has to do with the Watershed, but at least with the previous episode you could excuse it as 'they had time to get her clothes', here they didn't.
    The writer is Stephen Greenhorn, who also wrote 'The Lazarus Experiment'. He's also written a five-part show starring Alex Kingston, aka River Song. How weird is that?
    I just got technoTreknobabbled at about the state of Cloney. Generation five thousand clone? "In peak physical health"? But you're a clone who's a girl when you were cloned from a boy. That is not peak physical health. A clone is "any organism whose genetic information is identical to that of a parent organism from which it was created", and Boy DNA is not Girl DNA. But Cloney's all up for fighting, raring to go in fact.
    D: "Did you say she's your daughter?" Even though she's not.
    T: "Technically". Only in that your her parent organism. According to all science though, a clone is identical to that which came before.
    M: "Technically how?"
    Then Science happened in explanation. It boggled me. I'll roll with it.
    Here come the Hath. They're humanoid fish. Shoot their water masks. They die. So why shoot at the armour? It's armour.
    And MtM is still a moron, being kidnapped all so easily. And now there's a bomb, so Martha's dead! Woo! And the Doctor isn't happy. 04:10. Fake fake fake CGI fake fake fake. The Doctor states the obvious and turns to Cloney, "Why did you do that?!"
    C: "They were trying to kill us." Perfectly reasonable.
    T: "But they're got my friend."
    C: "Collateral damage" Needs of the many . . . "Least you still got her. He lost both his men, I'd say you came out ahead." yeah, he did. Donna's awesome. Martha is not.
    D: "Her name's Martha. And she's not collateral damage. Not for anyone. Have you got that GI Jane." I love Donna's mouthiness. The Doctor resolves to go find MtM, but the dude takes them to General Cob because they don't like fighting.
    Oh great. An MtM plot. No MtM, the fish is holding its arm because it was wounded in the groin. So she tries to heal the person who forcibly abducted her. Oh dearie me, it's Androcles and the Lion all over again. With fish.
    Half-fish, half-human. At least she acknowledged that she's not exactly the best person to deal with alien physiology. And yet she still diagnoses a dislocated shoulder? And it was right. Somehow. By magic.
    Ah, another thought: this is the episode 'The Great Divide' from A: tLA. Or any other film or episode of a show in which the protagonists become separated and end up staying with one side of a conflict, wind up utterly converting to that side's arguments and beliefs re: the plot, and this will all be some silly misunderstanding by the end of the episode.
    Cut to the Crew. Clones are assigned a name, and all she know is how to fight. The Doctor calls Cloney a "generated anomaly", from which Donna derives the name Jenny. Cloney approves. And is definitely wearing eye shadow. I shouldn't keep harping on, but make up is make up, not a biological wossname, no matter how much slap is plastered on.
    The Doctor doesn't want to have any sort of relationship with her, on account of her basically being his stolen DNA, but then he follows that bit up with this "You can't extrapolate a relationship from a biological accident". You know, I was a 'biological accident'. Many children are 'accidents'.
    So yeah. You can extrapolate a relationship from a biological accident. It's called being a parent.
    Donna rightly follow the Doctor's moronicity up with "Er, Child Support Agency can". And this is why I love Donna and want her babies.
    We're on Messaleen, so this is a TiFS on an alien planet. "What's left of it" at any rate. Now there's a theatre with cloning booths and soldiers being all soldierly. Donna aptly observes it's an underground city.
    The old soldier comes over and is all 'who? what? where? when?' and how can there be an "outbreak of pacifism [...] three generations back, before we lost contact"? Pacifism doesn't just break out. It's an ideology cultivated and chosen because one believes that physical force, violence etc. is wrong no matter what.
    Still, I like that he's treating pacifism as a disease. Note the use of "outbreak" and "infect".
    Going back a few seconds, the Doctor doesn't introduce Cloney, she has to introduce herself, and then the camera cuts to the Doctor giving her an aside glance. This is the Doctor not considering Cloney to be a real person, and thus doesn't need introduction. When was the last time the Doctor didn't consider a sentient being to be worthy of knowing . . . Clone!MtM. Nothing else springs to mind.
    So the Crew's stuck there. So it's time to get exposition!
    But first, MtM gets sort-of groped by the Hath. It's weird. And kind of rape-y. The Hath also have cloning booths. And come out fully clothed too.
    Colonel: "Our ancestors dreamt of a new beginning, a colony where human and Hath could work and live together. [...] The dream died. Broken, along with Hath promises. They wanted it all for themselves. But those early pioneers, they fought back." And so began the cloning. They live underground because this isn't a Class M planet and is unsuitable for habitation. The windows are tradition.
    The music's not so bad, more mellow than I'm used to for Gold's tastes, and Colonel sounds very Irish at the ends of his sentences. That or 'e's frum Zummerzet moi ducks. Got to be Irish, can't take a Zummerset man for a Colonel.
    The music is solemn, and verging on the reverential at times. Donna points to some plaque, but they don't got any ideas, so there's a plot point, and nobody can remember how long the war's been going on for.
    Seeing as mayflies seem to have a longer than average lifespan than the clones - oh dear, it's Attack of the Clones - it's very possible the wars only been going on for . . . I don't know, he looks about fifty, so thirty years.
    I don't agree with the "countless generations being marked only by the dead" thing as well, you go through generations the same way I go through chips. Quickly, and with lots of salt and vinegar.
    Hi Anvil: "Every child [...] has been born with this knowledge. It's all we know. How to fight. And how to die." Here the music deepens in pitch and the woodwind comes in more strongly to give an Ominous tone to things. Because that way of life is wrong. And that's bad.
    And the Doctor's going to get involved with this now because he can't bear violence at all. In most cases. Even though doing so would leave this people in a vacuum of culture, society and the basic understanding of how to function in a world without war where violence is not the key to solving problems. And there doesn't appear to be any concept of child rearing, or possibly how to have sex.
    I don't like Hath eyes. And there's a holo-map, and bubbles. What worthless cutaways.
    Back with the plot, they're off to find Martha. They're looking at a map to find the Hath to find Martha. D: "I’m not having sons and daughters by some great big flippin’ machine! Sorry, no offence [Jenny] but you’re not... well I mean you’re not real." You've already done this character arc back in 'Planet of the Ood' where you understood that just because they didn't look human didn't mean they didn't have a 'human' soul. You really going to make this a 'just because they're artificially bred humanoids doesn't mean they don't have a human soul' thing.
    Like the Ganger two-parter. Amongst other episodes. Frankly I think Star Trek did it better. You had the ongoing struggle in TNG with Data, you had Spock's struggle to understand humanity. You had the Doctor in Voyager (but let's not talk about that). But that's the thing with shows with a larger ensemble cast; they allow for this sort of thing to be explored more by one of the main cast rather than someone who might just be a one-off character.
    It's also a bit of a problem that basic sci-fi plots will come up again and again over the duration of a fifty year old show. Going to be hard to reinvent the basic tropes and stories.
    Also, Donna's not going to be some baby machine. Cue the feminism. Or something. Shame her character development took a few steps back from the way she was in 'Planet of the Ood', but I guess clones and aliens aren't the same.
    At least Cloney calls Donna on her attitude. But not dear old Daddy. See, Daddy's been distracted by talk of a Source. You don't want to find the Source. Trust me on this.
    The Source is "the breath of life". Cue Creation Myth: "In the beginning the great one breathed life into the universe. And then she looked at what she’d done, and she sighed." In disappointment. And, natch, whoever holds the Source controls the destiny of the planet. Question: how can Cloney be a feminist if she was born mere minutes ago into a gender-blind society? I say that as there seems to be no difference in the treatment and approach to a character. A solider is a soldier. End of. And this seems to be a childless society so the only real biological reason to treat a female different than a male is null and void.
    So where does this soldier who, by her own admission, is born knowing nothing but military tactics and the basic history of the conflict get this pseudo-feminist ideology from. Because obviously the best way to indicate a strong female character is to have her express some vaguely feminist values such as a female Judeo-Christian deity or objecting to women in their status as child-bearers. At least with Donna she was a strong female character introduced obsessed with getting married, and then later her 'feminist' tendencies showed up subtly. She was a character even before being a female character.
    Cloney however, is a girl. THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW. Would it be any different if Cloney was a boy saying he "liked" the idea of a Creator being female? Her entire character and personality is based around being: a clone, and female. So they try to emphasise her strength (already shown by her capable handling of herself in battle) by having her be a 'feminist'.
    The Doctor sonics the map and wakes up a "suppressed layer of information", which somehow also affects the Hath's holomap. More evidence to my: 'there is a trivial excuse for this whole war' theory. And the humans are closer to the Source.
    The Colonel's idea of peace is genocide. Again, what is it with this show and genocide? You don't need big stakes for a tense episode. You just don't need to risk an entire people to get people emotionally invested in your story. 'The Fires of Pompeii' settled around one town; 'School Reunion' ultimately was about the fate of one school, 'The Girl in the Fireplace' was about one person. 'Utopia' was a tragedy not because it's the end of the universe, but because the focus was almost exclusively on Prof. Yana and his destruction.
    'The Empty Child'/'The Doctor Dances', often considered one of the best stories ever, despite being set at of the Blitz and having the additional problem of converting all of humanity into gasmask abominations, has at its heart nothing more than a little boy lost and wanting his mummy to make everything better. And as a wider point of empathy some street children, Dr. Constantine and, the main focus: Nancy.
    It's hard to get emotionally invested in an entire people or species because it's an abstract. And all too often in RTD's era I've noticed a tendency to think bigger risks make a better story. Four of Nine's stories (or six episodes) revolve around the end of the world. Skipping some seasons, this one (including this episode) so far has five stories (or five episodes) centring around the abuse/destruction of an entire species.
    After a bit the possible end of an entire species or world tends to be a bit blasé. If there's a lack of character investment on the audience's half it all mixes together. Why should I care about these humans or the Hath? Certainly Cloney hasn't endeared herself to anyone outside of being a walking sexpot, and the humans are round down to: a reverent redshirt and a genocidal nutcase. The Hath have on their side MtM and looking slightly endearing in a repulsive way. And as they can't speak or express anything in any way except for fondling MtM in an increasingly unsettling way I don't find myself inclining to any side for any reason. I'm nearly a third of the way through this episode and it's like the last episode, but with no emotional attachments outside of the Crew, and no interesting characters outside of the Crew. This time in 'The Sontaran Stratagem' I was forming emotional attachments or dislikes to characters left right and centre.
    Here I got nothing. I can't even care that the Colonel wants to exterminate the Hath because they have no character. It's not even that they can't talk, everyone loves Dumbo and he never says a word. There's hardly any dialogue in that film. This is Dumbo's first scene, no words, but in about two minutes we're firmly on the side of him and his mother.
    The Hath are just nothing at this moment in time. They're not even a threat because those minuscule looks into their culture eliminate whatever threat they originally posed.
    Point is, despite threatened genocide once again, I don't care. I am amused though by the fact that, for the Colonel "peace in our time" can be defined as genocide.
    T: "look up genocide [in the dictionary]. You’ll see a little picture of me there and the caption will read 'Over my dead body'!"
    People The Doctor Has Genocided (Or Believes He Has, Inadvertently or Not) In Nu Who As Far As I Know:
    The Gelth
    The Daleks (four times)
    The Racnoss
    The Carrionites
    The Cybermen
    Humankind (repeatedly, although once it was undone)
    The Toclafane
    The Clockwork Robots
    The Krillitanes
    The Sontarans
    THE TIME LORDS
    More I Probably Forgot
    Look up 'hypocrite' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of the Doctor with the caption 'I change my opinions based on the writer, and sometimes for no reason but the plot!' written under it.
    He has committed genocide, whether he wanted to or not. He doesn't like it, but he will if there's no other way out of the situation. So while the Doctor is right to object to the Colonel's plan, to do so in this way that implies genocide is very complex. Maybe it's a 'do as I believe, not as I do' thing, but it's still weird.
    This require more thought than I can offer in this episode, it requires an actual 'essay', but I think that out of the three Nu Doctors I've seen Ten is the most unhealthy because he has his morals, but doesn't often accept the fact that he's broken them most egregiously. This is another one of those occasions where he seems aware of his broken rules, but doesn't openly admit to breaking them, or anything else.
    Because the Doctor's opposed to their plans theColonel has them imprisoned, leaving the Doctor to dwell on the irony of having shown the humans how to genocide the Hath. In newspeak "treason" means 'talking about a peaceful resolution'
    The Doctor insists he's going to stop them (called it) and then the Colonel says asks how he's going to stop them when he has "an army and the breath of God" on his side. Colonel has a point.
    The Doctor points to his head. He also has a point. Remember what happened when the ur-Satan faced off with the Doctor? He was eaten.
    Cloney steps in front of the Doctor and somehow this means 'I'm a pacifist' so they're all arrested.
    Cut to MtM's plotline, and the Hath are going to war. Both sides are utter savages. There's another story that did this better. They developed people on each side before ever introducing the conflict proper.
    "They're not you and me, which means they must be evil". One line from that video, and you have the plot for this entire episode, but with 'religion' involved. (Avatar also has the same plot, but I was even less invested in that film than I currently am with this episode. It is prettier though.) Oh Lord, even the music at 13:18 has the same drum beat as the video.
    How can MtM interpret bubbles now? How come she couldn't beforehand? She's within reach of the TARDIS' translator microbes, and the Doctor is conscious, which means there never should have been a language barrier in the first place.
    And she bunny-faces as she realises she just started a war.
    Even though she was kidnapped when the Hath attacked them and the humans they were with, thus implying that hostilities were rife between the two as nothing had been done to provoke this attack beside existing. Moron.
    Back with the Crew Donna points out the numbers again (60120716), wondering what they are. Normally when buildings have numbers on it's either a location i.e. a room or street number, or a construction date. 60/12/0716? Doesn't work. Maybe the backwards way? 16/07/6012? Or maybe it's just an IKEA-type building model flatpack. Besides, not even that crazy American dating system puts the year first.
    Either way, now it's been mentioned twice by the same person I know that it's definitely a plot point, and Donna's going to figure it out. Because she's the brains in this Crew.
    I think it's very callow the way the Doctor and Donna just dismiss an entire civilisation's Creation Story. That's like walking up to a devout [insert religion] and saying 'Your religion is utter bull because I say so without any proof behind it whatsoever other than the fact that I don't believe in your beliefs'. What honest proof do these two have that this world wasn't created by a female deity/advanced species? None. I'm not exactly religious - far from it in fact - but I don't march up to religious people and tell them that what they believe is stupid without giving any reasons.
    But these two 'enlightened ones' just say, 'oh no, that's nonsense, there's science behind this "breath of God" thing, I just know it'. And yeah, there probably is. Meaning that their religion is founded upon facts.
    Bluntly, a god is a creator. One of the many definitions for the word 'author' is "(of all, of nature, of the universe etc.) the Creator" (OED online). Another definition of 'author' is "An inventor, constructor, or founder" (ibid). Another is one "who gives rise to or causes an action, event, circumstance, state, or condition of things" (ibid). So their God is real, but isn't a God in the traditional religious sense of many religions.
    I don't want to embroil myself in religio-philosophical debate, but this world's God does seem to exist, but not as the God many of the audience would expect. And it's still not very polite of the Doctor or Donna to just say 'yeah, this story that your entire civilisation's founded on is complete and utter rubbish'.
    Called it. The Doctor calls the Source "a piece of technology [...] a weapon"; and given what I've seen of that film, it's definitely a weapon.
    Hi, another thought. Doctor, why are you so firmly against the humans killing the Hath? You literally know nothing about them aside from the very scanty information you were just told. For all you know the Hath could be this world's Gelth or Daleks. The humans could be utterly justified in their fight to kill the Hath. Aren't you going to feel a silly bint if the first thing they do after you destroy the Source is to immediately start devouring humankind and terraforming the planet to suit their needs, thus damning a whole people to agonising death?
    Obviously they're not, we know that, but the Doctor's not got much information saying other than what the humans believe. They even shot first.
    You know, I'd like for that to happen. The Doctor sides with the 'wrong' side and dooms an entire people because of it.
    But Cloney's staring at the Doctor, because, guess what, he's acting like a soldier, "drawing up strategies like a proper general." Finally! He's being called on his hypocrisy!
    T: "I know. I want to stop the fighting."
    C: "Isn't every soldier?" In all fairness, no. While some do join specifically because they want to bring about peace, others are career soldiers and would like having a job, others join the army because they can kill legally (although hopefully these are few and far between). But I'd say the majority would like peace. Going home to their families.
    T: "Well, I suppose, but that's . . . that's . . . " Oh you just got owned by someone less than an hour old. This is another point I wanted to try to make during my anger at the Doctor's hypocrisy issues last serial. It's a pragmatic approach to peace. This is called pacificism, not pacifism. War and violence as the last resort on the road to bringing about peace.
    And that's exactly the wall I've run into the past few episodes when it comes to the Doctor. He is and has been a soldier. He aims for pacifism, but so often falls into pacificism, he understands pragmatism while at the same time being, and aiming for idealism in all things. And I think that's why I like Nine and Eleven better than Ten in many regards.
    Not that he's not a brilliant Doctor, because he is, but he seems to have hit a rough patch on his development from war-torn Nine and he wavers so much. I like it, but at the same time I want him to acknowledge that though he may ignore his actions, other see them and judge him accordingly.
    The Doctor is a soldier who sometimes falls into aggressive action too quickly, and then to counteract that, he will be too reluctant to act decisively to prevent an actual threat.
    I like this piece of his personality, but as someone with a military family, and in general, a very decisive family (can't go to sea with a small crew for a livelihood and not be able to act so), I can't help but take issue with this fact, and his denial over it.
    But to continue, Donna gives him a knowing look, because she totally agrees with Cloney, and the Doctor waffles on with "Technically I've got no time for this" or answers. And decides to upgrade Donna's phone.
    C: "But you've got a weapon!" Finally. Someone who agrees with me. "[...] You are such a solider."
    T: "Donna, tell her."
    D: "Oooh. You. Are. Speechless. I am loving this. You keep on Jenny." I think the Doctor's trying to call MtM. I was right, and hello bunny-face (14:39). MtM does the usual 'is everyone okay' spiel and again the Doctor fails to mention Cloney. Boy got some serious issues here. Maybe that's why he reacted so differently in the Ganger two-parter. Guilt over this and the last episode.
    So the two armies are marching to capture the Source! MtM offers to help, she does seem to have the partial trust of the Hath, but the Doctor orders her not to move or help out in any way. Because . . . guilt. So he hangs up. Bets MtM's ignoring him? Obviously otherwise what's the point of her being here? She's done nothing all episode after all. Aside from irritate me with her inability to say doctor.
    More Hath preparation cuts and slightly sinister music, intercut with the cheering of the humans. And they start cheering "To war!" and such. And I am compelled to link that savages video again, because that's where this story comes from. A super-simplified, distorted account of an historic event, adapted into a Disney film is the source of this episode.
    And I still think the Disney film is better than this episode.
    The Doctor's still all . . . it's not racist or speciesist, and I don't think clonism is a real thing, but he's a clonist. He even asserts the Cloney is "just like them" [the other cloned, militaristic humans] and deserves to stay in prison. Thus implying that her mere existence is a crime.
    Wow Doctor. Wow.
    I don't usually like linking to, or mentioning TVTropes in these things, but this is what came up when I simply Google the term "doesn't like clones" in an attempt to find a better word than 'clonism'. I only skim read the general description, but that's pretty much how the Doctor is acting. But mixed with utter contempt for her life in particular because she's not natural.
    Now, I like to think that the Doctor is Susan's paternal grandfather, but this attitude makes me think he's her maternal Grandfather because it's the only way to even vaguely excuse his attitude. Because Cloney reminds him too much of the daughter he lost. Still doesn't excuse his treating her like a non-entity whose very existence is a crime against nature. The Doctor is meant to rejoice in almost all forms of life, and even be reluctant to kill his enemies (just look at the Master, and his willingness (or desperation) to believe a Dalek could evolve into something more than an omnicidal maniac in a pepperpot), and he doesn't like Cloney because she's a clone?
    One who is very technically his daughter.
    T: "She's a soldier. She came out of that machine!" So she doesn't deserve to live? To have a chance to be something else? Because people who aren't conceived naturally are wrong?
    D: "Oh yes, I know that bit! Listen, have you got that stethoscope? Give it to me. Come on!" And so the Doctor finds out Cloney has two hearts, something which I knew pretty much instantly because a clone of a Time Lord is a Time Lord. Or at least Gallifreyan, meaning he's not alone any more. If this means everything's different now because she's a Time Lord. Or Lady. I am going to inflict harm upon my person.
    Also, I know the Doctor's basically a bigot in this story, but bigot's aren't necessarily morons, so how did he not clue in that a Time Lord clone has Time Lord DNA and is therefore a Time Lord? At least with Melody he had an excuse.
    Still, got to love that Donna's basic common sense is beating the Doctor's skinny arse around the room multiple times and starting to demolish his many prejudices. That is why I want Donna's babies so hard.
    Credit to the music being airy and revelatory.
    T: "You're an echo. That's all you are. A Time Lord is so much more. A sum of knowledge. A code. A shared history. A shared suffering. And it's gone now. All of it. Gone forever." Don't you dare make me A:TLA you! Because I will! The last is the last until there is more. She is (until she dies) a chance to bring back the Time Lords in a fashion. Just plunk your hands in the machine a few more times, the DNA bits get remixed in many different ways, so it's not quite incest, find them a nice safe planet, tell them to shag like bunnies, and build some kind of machine that teaches the history, ethics, code and skills of the Time Lords.
    Not perfect, they'll never be what they once were, but it's a chance, and a chance is more than you had before.
    On the plus side, at least he's not turned his morals upside down just because Cloney's a Time Lord too.
    Still, Cloney calls him on the hypocrisy of his fighting a war, and now hating war; or maybe starts to understand it.
    C: "Then how are we different?"
    Last edited by CurlyKitGirl; 2011-09-04 at 08:18 PM.

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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    'The Doctor's Daughter' part two
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    He has no answer and the music is thoughtful. I think Cloney has finally, finally punched made a hole in that Denial wall of his.
    Cut to Martha . . . trying to charge her phone. Okay, MtM is clearly a girl, otherwise she wouldn't have had a naked gooey (attempted) kinky scene for her an episode ago, so obviously she would never go anywhere without her phone being well charged because if she didn't then she might - gasp! - miss a call from her friends. Or worse. Her fiancée! Now that I've been a misogynistic pritt stick, I still call this out because MtM works for UNIT. See, I was a Guide. And being in the military is like being in Guides, but up to fifteen. You know:
    I promise that I will do my best
    To love my God
    To serve the Queen and my country
    To help other people

    And to keep the Guide law
    Or, for Scouts:
    On my honour, I promise that I will do my best,
    To do my duty to God and to the Queen,
    To help other people,

    And to keep the Scout Law.
    Note the italicised parts. Or a short form motto: be prepared. And those Promises? Are taken when you're ten or eleven. The Promises for the younger divisions of Guides and Scouts follow roughly the same pattern, and the one thing all the Promises of Guides and Scouts have in common? Is to do their best.
    For those not up in the Scout and Guide history, Lord Baden-Powell originally founded Scouts as a kind of preparation for joining or working with the military.
    So for a girl who decided to train as a doctor, then went travelling with the Doctor, and is now a member of a military organisation to not know something taught to young children in a club founded with militaristic methods in mind is stupid. She was going on a military operation. Where she specifically needed to use her phone. And she didn't fully charge it?! No. Way.
    That's not even including the fact that many people in modern MED societies tend to all but surgically attach their mobile to themselves, and would have their phone mostly charged all the time. Especially when they're gong out.
    And I don't think the Doctor remotely drained her battery otherwise when we cut back to him after the call we'd have seen him lowering his screwdriver.
    MtM is MtM for a reason. But I don't think she's that stupid. And then for her to ask a HATH ON A DIFFERENT PLANET XTY THOUSAND YEARS IN THE FUTURE FOR A WAY TO CHARGE A MOBILE?!
    Desk, head. Meet, greet, repeat.
    Also, the map is in 3D now. This means that the only reason to have MtM's mobile lose power was to have her run over to the holomap and see it's 3D now. Rather than having the Doctor turn off the phone he has so she can't contact him. Or have her just walk over to the holomap because guess what, it looks different now!
    Why is MtM in this episode? She's done nothing. At all.
    She wants to go over the surface because it's quicker. Except we were told the surface is unsuitable for human habitation. But that's okay, MtM'll find that out -
    what.
    Okay. One: nitrogen and oxygen at an 80% and 20% respectively? That's a class M planet! And where are the other gases? You know, the trace ones? Maybe there's no protective ozone thing?
    Two: "Ozone levels are high". Well. In that case: why is the surface unfit for human habitation?!
    Three: I'll let your knowledge of radiation spikes slide, you're in the military; but you don't know what kind of radiation, the frequency with which it spikes sending the radiation into dangerous territory. And you can't tell what level of radiation is dangerous for humans if you don't know what kind of radiation it is!
    See, I live in an area with massive natural radon radiation. A little over six times the global average in fact, and this is, surprisingly, still fine. It leads to increased chances of lung cancer and a few other things. But it's still perfectly fine even over eighty plus years.
    Radiation, and radiation spikes, don't mean a thing unless you specify some type of radiation. This is Doctor Who. Make something up.
    Long story short (too late) is that there's no particular reason for people to not live on the surface aside from radiation spikes of unknown intensity, type and frequency. And MtM's going to run out on a perfectly normal planet's surface regardless because she has to find her friends. And that Hath just follows her. Bubbling all the while. Why? If it was fine for them to live there they wouldn't live underground. If he thinks it's dangerous why's he going with her? If it's not dangerous why live underground? They have water tanks so they can breathe.
    Then in prison Cloney pulls a River Song, but with less panache and no lipstick. She only snogs him to get his gun. God, Cloney has no character at all.
    Hmmm, Donna's got slashy tendencies of her own, wanting to see the Doctor going round kissing men. Shame Captain Jack Harkness is otherwise occupied in Cardiff and the Master's dead. Presumably. 'Course, this is a jokey thing, but Donna's the type of girl who'd like a bit of same-sex fun. You can tell by her eyebrows at 19:08. Best bit is Ten's facial expression after that comment clearly says 'been there, done that, liked it'.
    Blah blah blah, stairs, still can't get over the implausible 'perfection' of Cloney, the Doctor has another freak out about guns - and I'll let this slide as the redshirt's only walking down the stairs for Heaven's sake - and Donna offers to distract him.
    D: "I have picked up a few womanly wiles over the years". Donna honey, as much as I love you, and believe me, we all know I do, it's more for your charisma and personality than your looks, nice as they are. And well, you're not sexy. Unlike Amy Pond, so pretty and sexy. I'll be in my bunk.
    The Doctor basically say the same thing (minus Amy), telling her to "save it. In case of emergency". Ow. Donna gets the hint, and then the Doctor fumbles at his crotch. Well, might as well make the slash fans happy.
    Why does the Doctor have a clockwork mouse in his crotch? Surely when you stuff you normally use socks. The redshirt then gets karate chopped into unconsciousness in best Star Trek fashion. And even this is 'too violent' for the Doctor.
    The Hath now have a police issue battering ram. And then with MtM we get a "stand in the open air, feel the wind in your face" speech. So many references. Let's go for this. They go through the hatch.
    Hey, it's the UK!
    Nothing wrong with living there. The music makes this feat of standing in - a UK-Mordor cross - seem marvellous, and the matte painting really is pretty.
    The Colonel find out the prisoners have escaped, and now they're going to die too. Donna sees almost the exact same plaque as before, but with a four at the end. But the Doctor's too busy sonicking things to pay attention. Donna realises the numbers are counting down and Cloney says "Always thinking, both of you. Who are you people?" You were there when they introduced themselves.
    I also can't decide what to say about the possible insult/confusion that is realising that people can think. Following some banter about the Doctor being "the most anomalous person" Donna's ever met, we get another concise definition of the Doctor and his purpose in life: "He saves planets, rescues civilizations, defeats terrible creatures. And runs a lot. Seriously, there's an outrageous amount of running involved." A lampshade and the truth.
    You know. Cloney aside this is very much like 'Genesis of the Daleks'. But without the intelligent premise and the obvious emotional, mental etc. conflicts the Doctor finds himself embroiled in.
    The sets are monotonous tunnels, Sarah Jane Smith finds herself separated from the Crew, finds some unlikely allies; the Doctor wishes for the war to end, but doing so risks the extermination of at least one race and the possible creation of Daleks. Substitute 'clone' with 'Dalek', you got virtually the same plot.
    But with better characters, plot, conflict and suspense. And it emotionally involves the audience. Why am I not watching 'Genesis' again?
    The Doctor sonics open a secret passage as the Colonel pops up, so of course, the bombast returns. As we enter the basement from 'The Sontaran Stratagem'/'The Poison Sky'. With lazor corridor.
    Cue Mission Impossible scenes, after the Doctor realises he can't sonic the lazors away. And Donna finds another plaque, still counting down. Or up if we assume the Source is the centre of the base.
    Cloney wants to go hold off the soldiers - reasonable plan.
    T: "No, we don't need any more dead." Way to assume she's going to shoot to kill.
    C: "But it's them or us." She has a point.
    T: "It doesn't mean you have to kill them!" She never said she was going to. Also, can't you show some concern for her as a person?
    C: "I'm trying to save your life!"
    T: "Listen to me, the killing, after a while it infects you. And once it does you're never rid of it." And there is the core of the Doctor's issues and neuroses when it comes to killing, guns, and violence in general. He has a point too. There are many meditations on the dark side of the human psyche, from numerous poems to literature to television and beyond. When it comes to critical or literary analysis, one common theme is that of addiction. In the few examples I've linked above there is the common desire to do bad thing because they can get away with it, and it feels good whether they have a motive behind it or not. This pops up in criminology too as something like 'escalation theory', why some serial killers attacks become more rapid and more violent over time. Killing and violence is addictive. If you can get away with it, you want another fix.
    The Doctor doesn't like killing because he know this. And that it's oh so easy to solve problems with violence. Whether it's because he himself has felt that pull or not. Me, I'm tending towards the former because of his expression, passion and body language here, probably because of the Time War. The Doctor has never liked killing, but in Nu Who it seems this trait of his has become stressed more and more often. He's a recovering 'addict' on top of other post-war stress.
    C: "We don't have a choice."
    T: "We always have a choice." True, but also no. I don't like killing, very few people actually do. But if it comes down to me, a loved one, someone I care about, or even a stranger being attacked by a someone who will. not. stop. I will stop them in any way I can. It's not Us or Them. It's 'this person is being attacked for no reason, it is wrong, I must stop it'.
    C: "I'm sorry." And she made her choice. Doctor, respect it.
    He said her name! Finally, he turned a corner in his prejudice! He respects her choice. Boogie down.
    T: "I told you. Nothing but a soldier." If you keep hating soldiers for no reason other than their profession I will punch you. Soldiers. Are. Not. Bad. People. At least Donna's still calling him on his attitude. Besides, at 24:43 - 6 you can clearly see her looking down at her gun doubtfully as helpful music (she's doubting her beliefs! Look!) plays.
    Huh. I think the preview lied to us. The Doctor turned off the lazors. The Crew run, the Colonel does his Evil Is In the Blood speech. The Dark Side has cookies.
    Nature v. nuture. Determinism v. free will. Normally I'd go for nurture and free will. And that's what wins out. Cloney shoots a pipe, not the Colonel. She's chosen to follow at least partially, the Doctor's morals because they struck a chord in her.
    But the problem is, I think River Song does it better. And yes, in part this is because we knew her as a character first. Even looking at 'Let's Kill Hitler' alone River had a character, she had more impetus to change her moral stand point, and while it's done more subtly here, I find myself caring less because Cloney just doesn't really strike me as an interesting character.
    Why did the lazors come back on? This just adds pointless tension and something cool to put in the preview. And how's this still working after untold thousands of generations of soldiers have died? This was hidden behind a secret panel, so no maintenance. And why aren't there control panels at both ends of the pointless lazor corridor to prevent the builders from being lazored to death mid-construction?
    I like this bit. The Doctor's panicked, and the red lighting over his eyes indicate either the danger Cloney's in, the passion he's feeling or both. And it's cute she called the Doctor "Father".
    Ah. So this is a show-off scene written specifically to show off a cast member's skills. I like these if they're written well into the script, but this scene is pointless because it's just there for the preview. Point of order: the audience isn't thick. Don't think that just because there's no action in a preview we're not going to tune in to watch it. Remember the preview for 'The Sound of the Drums'? There was nothing in it particularly showy; a few seconds of guns firing, a mysterious machine in a room full of people, and basketball aliens. But it was tense and compelling without any set piece action scenes. I think it's one of the best previews for any Doctor Who episode so far. The preview for this one, in spite of the action was bland and just didn't catch my attention even when they revealed who the Doctor's daughter was.
    I also admit to having a particular dislike of acrobatic ways through lazor mazes because they're just impossible. The thing with lazor mazes is they're there to stop people. Therefore they should be close together and not conveniently placed to allow for showing somersaults.
    Then we have a cute family scene with hugs and Cloney being all happy because she chose not to kill him even though she could and the Doctor's all happy because she's on the right side of the lazors.
    The Colonel shows up again, the Doctor reiterates his, 'I won't let you have it if it's a weapon' threat, the Colonel repeats his 'one of us is going to die' etc cliché and tries to shoot the Doctor.
    Back on the surface it's still a BBC quarry representing a typical UK night time. MtM has the cramps. Must be that time of the month. Then she falls. Because she's such a moron she doesn't know to not walk on the edge of a ridge when the soil is clearly loose and degraded.
    She falls. Oh look. Another coat-MtM-in-goo moment. At least this quicksand's really threatening. Looks like proper quicksand. The Hath goes to save her but he can't reach. So he jumps in and pushes MtM out, saving her life. But he can't get out.
    I honestly don't care. It's nice I guess that he gave his life to save her but this Hath has no distinguishing characteristics whatsoever, I think he might be the Hath with the dislocated shoulder, but I'm not certain; and the Hath have had maybe seven minutes onscreen all told. If you don't have a personality or a distinguishing feature of any sort, how am I meant to tell who this person is or why I should care?
    I also have to concede that, being a teenager, I am extremely childish, and the noises the Hath made as he was being drowned were just really silly and made me giggle. And the quicksand looks like mice beef on the boil. However. Agyeman's response to the Hath that MtM's bonded with is fantastic. There's anguish, guilt and sorrow there.
    From that admittedly emotional scene we're in another corridor with the Crew, complete with the running gag about relationships. The girls talk about travelling with the Doctor, and we get an official invitation from the Doctor to Cloney. Funny how all you have to do is agree with his morals and he'll automatically take you with him. But it's still sweet. Mainly because Cloney's acting like a real child.
    D: "Kids! They never listen!" Donna would make a great mum. You know, I could see the Doctor and Donna raising children. I agree with her that the Doctor's got dad-shock.
    And woo! The Doctor tells Donna about his child/ren of unspecified gender from a long time ago. But not about Susan. Why does everyone forget Susan. And that he lost all his family.
    D: "I'm sorry. I didn't know. Why didn't you tell me? You talk all the time, but you don't say anything." That's true, when it comes to personal things the Doctor tends to be all talk, and no substance.
    T: "I know. I'm just... When I look at her now I can see them. The hole they left, all the pain that filled it. I just don't know if I can face that every day." CALLED IT! Extra reactionary because Cloney reminds him of his family.
    D: "It won't stay like that. She'll help you. We both will." Aaaaawwww. Donna/Doctor: best friends for life.
    T: "But when they died, that part of me died with them. It'll never come back. Not now." I know. But you have to try. Personal story time, my Granny's first child was still born, a little baby boy. Granny and Granddad were heartbroken, and then one day she fell pregnant again. It was a little boy. They never forgot their first little boy, that love and joy they felt for him wasn't the love and joy they felt for their second baby; but it helped them accept the loss of their first baby. It was a way to move on without forgetting the past.
    But when I was little, when Granny was still alive, she used to tell me about how excited she was for her first baby and everything. A part of her did die. But it wasn't the end of all things. The second baby didn't fill in the hole, or take away the pain, but it soothed it, and helped them keep going.
    You can't cling to the past, even when you lose your family. You can't or it'll fester inside of you. And that's why I love Donna's determination and certainty in this scene. And thus music is very quiet for once, muted, and because the music's staying where it belongs it really picks up the poignancy, and also the new hope Donna brings him.
    D: "I tell you something, Doctor, something I've never told you before. I think you're wrong." Although this is a bit odd. You've told him he was wrong a lot. 'The Fires of Pompeii', 'The Runaway Bride' and a few other times.
    There's more Doctor/Cloney bonding, the soldiers approach and they find the door to the Temple.
    MtM, wind, sadness, sad strings. Tears. And Temple. It's Sauron's tower.
    The Doctor sonics the door open as the army approaches. Donna decides the numbers aren't a cataloguing system because they're too regular. Door open. Inside. MtM's inside too. Running, frenetic cutting.
    It's the space ship from 'Utopia'. THe Doctor finally twigs what I did. These electrics shouldn't be functioning after many thousands of years of war. But too busy to think, up the stairs! The Hath are now lazoring their way through another door.
    Why is the ship's log still working? And the cause of the war? Power vacuum. Semi-called it. Two factions, two armies.
    Oh you have got to be kidding me! I was right?! It was year-first dating systems?! And I even called the American similarity thing! And the working outwards. I was right that early on?! But I still like that Donna's temp work is important.
    How did I. What. Plot. Easily figured out, but I dismissed it because it was too 'easy'.
    The war's only been going on a week.
    A week.
    How the.
    But the Colonel is old. Like, twice the age of the clone soldiers. The only old person in the entire episode. Yeah yeah, twenty generations a day I get it, but one old person. Sorry. Not working for me.
    And that thing I complained about where the Crew dismissed an entire civilisation's Creation Myth and I said it was most likely based partially on some kind of fact? Was right.
    Aaaaand the plot threads unite. Meh. She's not sad any more either.
    The Crew can smell flowers. It's a greenhouse.
    The greenhouse is the Source.
    It's a terraforming device.
    Like what I mentioned earlier. Desk, head, meet, greet, repeat. I was only joking.
    And the armies are here. History as Chinese whispers? I can handle that. Folklore and family stories after all.
    The Doctor basically calls the Source the Genesis device, "it's not for killing. Bringing life. It can lift you out of these dark tunnels and into the bright, bright sunlight. No more fighting. No more killing.
    "I'm the Doctor, and I declare that this war is over!" Then he smashes the Source. Wouldn't it have been hilarious is you needed to enter a code of some sort first, and in doing this the Doctor destroyed their only chance of living on the surface?
    And breaking the Source doesn't mean the war's over. It just means you terraformed a planet. Hostilities are still ongoing. No peace treaties. No talks. Not even a general armistice!
    Pretty effect though. Even if it makes the Hath look like they're getting high. Very pretty effect, lovely music.
    And this sight suddenly makes everyone drop arms because the breath of God is the breath of God even if it has a basis in scientific fact. Sorry, but no. As much as an idealist I am, and I am, this sort of thing doesn't happen. Only time I can remember is the famous Christmas Truce, and after that they went right back to killing. You don't just stop fighting.
    And of course the Colonel just wants to kill because war is glorious and he is General Quaritch. And he just shot Cloney who sacrificed herself for the Doctor.
    I sort of care now. But here's the thing. She's a TIME LORD with TWO HEARTS. She wasn't even shot in the heart. Just the lung. And Time Lords can regenerate. And I don't even care for her particularly even though it's sweet the Doctor finally accepted Cloney as her daughter.
    The only reason the Master didn't regenerate from his shot to the not-heart was because his death was to spite the Doctor and I know he's coming back somehow. The Master always comes back.
    Regeneration is a mostly instinctual process and it probably takes experience with regeneration to even know how to stop it. So Cloney will regenerate. Why so sad? Regeneration's just a natural way of life for Time Lords, no need to get so sad about it unless it's her last one or something.
    Nine wasn't sad about regenerating into Ten. He was looking forward to it, so you should have just told Cloney she was going to regenerate and he was going to see her in a few minutes!
    HELLO!
    And why is the Doctor, the last Time Lord in existence (give or take some) asking MtM a human Doctor about Time Lord abilities?! That's like having my brother walk up to me and ask me about Warhammer 40k! I ain't gonna know nothing about it bar what he told me.
    So stoopid.
    And what do you mean "She's like you [Doctor], but... maybe not enough." If you take DNA only from a Time Lord and use the pure Time Lord DNA to make a clone, said clone is going to be one hundred percent Time Lord. It's not like the Doctor was making the beast with two backs in the TARDIS with another species.
    T: "No. Too much. That's the truth of it. She was too much like me." In some ways, but not others. She would have turned out okay. Definitely got the 'sacrifice myself for others' thing from her daddy though.
    HA! SEE THAT, YOU'RE HOLDING A GUN TO A MAN'S HAND AND YOU TOTALLY WOULD DO IT! Heh, guess the drums are a sign of madness in all Time Lords then. Because trust me sweetie, you're a daddy. And a daddy would definitely kill the person who hurt their baby. And it's chilling when he tells the Colonel that. Chilling.
    You might have decided to show mercy in the end, but you would kill him. I could see it in your eyes. But he has to set an example, and he does. T: "Remember that. Make the foundation of this society . . . A man who never would!" And there's the Doctor's beliefs. He throws away the gun, and mourns his daughter again some. And the music is lovely.
    some time later, the terraforming works. Cloney's still dead, and they want to bury her on Messaleen.
    And the Doctor doesn't even attend the funeral. And we get another close up of the hand. The quiet, sad music lingers on as the Doctor concludes that the TARDIS was summoned too soon by Cloney's creation. They decide to drop MtM off, and the music swells from contemplative and sad to triumph as they leave.
    Can't even spend one day on the planet mourning Cloney. Bit heartless.
    At MtM's place Donna vows that she could never go back, "How could I ever go back to normal life after seeing all this? I'm gonna travel with that man for ever." I don't know why she doesn't, maybe she died? But Donna really is the best Companion so far. She has the same lust for otherliness that Astrid had. Donna's in love with the Doctor's way of life. And I honestly think she's the better for it. When she couldn't find him she searched for strange things in order to get some of the thrill back.
    But it's a friendly parting on all sides. And there's hope for everyone. Unlike Rose when she met Sarah Jane Smith.
    MtM even calls Cloney "the thing [the Doctor]'d finally found something worth living for". Except he found that post-'The Doctor Dances'.
    T: "There's always something worth living for Martha." And there is.
    It's a nice ending, and GOld's got the tone just right with the music even if it could use a lower volume. And Marth? Rather than being sad she's leaving the Doctor looks down at her ring and runs off to home with a grin on her face. The perfect epilogue to Martha Jones.
    Why are we back with Cloney. Apparently she's dead and dead. Unless that was some stupid fake out to have a reunion later on in the series. She regenerated. Quietly. And didn't change her appearance.
    Why?
    That's so wrong.
    That's so wrong I can't even.
    You regenerate, you change your appearance. Everyone knows that. Why did you warp one of the few established facts of TIme Lord biology? Because Cloney's a bit of a sexpot? So what. Get another one. Or get this . . . get a plain person in to be Cloney. Girls don't have to be pretty.
    So stupid.
    Time Lords change their appearance when they regenerate. Always.
    So stole a shuttle she doesn't know how to use and so there're now two Time Lords running around. One without a TARDIS. No doubt she'll find a way to build her own with magic or something. You know, this makes River Song completely, oh what's the word, boring now. Because the whole part-Time Lord thing was meant to be a massive revelation. The Doctor's alone no more, the Time Lords have a chance to come back. Or at least have another chance at life. And that last speech of hers is the Genie from Aladdin.
    Why did she come back to life? No really. Why?

    Preview thoughts: AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! And aliens! And AGATHA CHRISTIE! You guys. Agathie Christie! All up in my Who. Also dead people and Scotland yard and a giant wasp.
    Dudes. They're getting Agatha Christie to solve a murder mystery where the culprit is a giant wasp. So, where's the unicorn?
    AGATHA CHRISTIE!

    Best Moment: The death of CLoney was surprisingly touching all things considered.

    Worst Moment: Pointless lazor corridor.

    Best Special Effect: The Hath's costumes are pretty damn good, as is an alien landscape that looks alien.

    Worst Special Effect: an unimpressive lazor corridor.

    Best Actor: Tennant and Tate are joint for just having amazing chemistry.

    Worst Actor: The Colonel was too clichéd and predictable.

    Most Punchable Character: The Doctor.

    Death Count:
    Thousands. Mostly offscreen and assumed.

    Number of Times Rose Is Mentioned:
    None surprisingly.

    Thoughts overall?
    It was a drag, and Martha's subplot was almost completely pointless, she really didn't need to be in this episode at all. She was wasted in this episode. It really only picked itself up in the last ten minutes or so, because that's when Cloney actually developed a character.
    The action was subpar after the UNIT two-parter and there wasn't much suspense or anything interesting really going on for much of the story except rehashing in greater detail what happened in the previous serial. The Hath weren't involved in their own story and the fact that they had roughly eight minutes of screen time total and couldn't say or do anything to impart their motivation to us really reduced their existence to barely that of the monster du jour. The humans were similarly underdeveloped to the point where they barely even existed as pencilled caricatures.
    I think this episode had a much smaller budget than the rest of the season so far, and while it was nice having some of the old Classic Who 'run around corridors' feel, I still think the previous serial had more of the campy Classic Who feel that the show was known for. Because I'm watching this at more or less the same time as 'Genesis' this episode comes off as somehow even cheaper than Classic Who, and with far less substance.
    There were some pretty shots, and the last ten minutes were surprisingly good for this serial, but it was too dull and too long and too similar to the last one.
    And to be honest, this story is a mish-mash of plot threads that were old in the 1970s. Each of these threads and sci-fi elements were done much better in the 1960s and early 1970s when these things were new, there's a reason Doctor Who and Star Trek are pretty much THE sci-fi shows. And while these story elements can still be reinvented and told in different ways, this wasn't an episode that did it.
    The best part of this was the interaction and development of the relationship between the Doctor and Donna. They fit together so well as friends, and you can really see Donna come into her own as a Companion who has faith in the Doctor, but is willing to call him out on certain topics, or advise him in his darker times.
    I don't know how this got an AI of 88. Worst and weakest episode of the season so far.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    The Doctor's daughter grew up, acted as the Doctor's daughter, married the Doctor and had the Doctor's daughter.
    This is an awesome summation. If I were her, I would want this on my headstone when I die.

    You don't want to find the Source. Trust me on this.
    Agreed. That movie hurts me. Songs written by Queen shouldn't sound bad. It's unnatural.

    'School Reunion' ultimately was about the fate of one school
    Also about who would be running the universe from now on. Oh, and who is or isn't a tin dog.

    Unlike Amy Pond, so pretty and sexy. I'll be in my bunk.
    Please tell me you've checked out those mini-episodes. You must see them.

    AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! And aliens! And AGATHA CHRISTIE! You guys. Agathie Christie! All up in my Who. Also dead people and Scotland yard and a giant wasp.
    Dudes. They're getting Agatha Christie to solve a murder mystery where the culprit is a giant wasp. So, where's the unicorn?
    AGATHA CHRISTIE!
    I think you'll like this one much better. It's hilarious.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Jenny is a special case. The way it was presented I sort of assumed (loads of fanwank incoming) that the machine scrambled his DNA along with a "base" human to create a new being hence his shock at discovering she had two hearts and her partial regeneration.

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    And what with Doctor Donna and Human Ten it all makes sense as a sort of foreshadowing.


    I agree though that it would have been better had she regenerated.

    Edit: On another note just caught up again with the series and the thread. I liked River's jab about shaving off a few years slowly to freak people out. Being time human lord has its advantages. I kinda wonder if her story is going to lead to the doctor discovering that Time Lords are Humans once humans spend enough time exposed to the rift and somehow some get stranded on Galifrey at the beginning of the universe… but that would be a bit much even for Who.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    I kinda wonder if her story is going to lead to the doctor discovering that Time Lords are Humans once humans spend enough time exposed to the rift and somehow some get stranded on Galifrey at the beginning of the universe… but that would be a bit much even for Who.
    Actually...
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    The opposite is true. I remember reading somewere that Rassilon was a bit of a supremacist, and monkeyed around with genetics on a universal scale way back when, thus assuring that many of the races that evolved would resemble Time Lords. Explains why so many "aliens" just look like people with funny clothes or bits glued on.

    Not sure of the details. Anyone know what book/audio play/comic this comes from?
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Good review, Curly, but I am going to argue one tiny point.

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    People The Doctor Has Genocided (Or Believes He Has, Inadvertently or Not) In Nu Who As Far As I Know:
    The Gelth
    The Daleks (four times)
    The Racnoss
    The Carrionites
    The Cybermen
    Humankind (repeatedly, although once it was undone)
    The Toclafane
    The Clockwork Robots
    The Krillitanes
    The Sontarans
    THE TIME LORDS
    Several of these weren't genocided, and a couple don't count. The Gelth were blocked from entering Earth to conquer it, but there's no indication that they were all killed. The Doctor only genocided the Daleks once - in Dalek, it committed suicide (although he gave it a go), in Parting Of The Ways it was Rose that killed them all after the Doctor couldn't bring himself to, and in Army of Ghosts he just pulled them out of the world. He also didn't kill the Carrionites, he just trapped them in the pocket world they'd already been trapped in. The Cybermen aren't a species, they're a modification to a species, and are really more of a disease than a group given that it's an unwilling modification that breaks your mind. The Toclafane weren't so much genocided as reverted to be back where they had been before they started murdering everyone, the Clockwork Robots specifically weren't sentient or they wouldn't have been trying to kill people to fulfill their orders, and the Doctor destroyed one fleet of attacking Sontaran soldiers - it was a political attack against an organized invading force, not a targeted destruction of the species. The Krillianites and the Racnoss I will give you, but even then it's iffy; in neither case was he killing them because of their species, he was killing specific people because of their actions. In both cases, he offered them a way out.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Perhaps I've become jaded, but my thoughts on Night Terrors were "oh, hey, I saw The Empty Child too".
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy View Post
    Perhaps I've become jaded, but my thoughts on Night Terrors were "oh, hey, I saw The Empty Child too".
    It was a bit fear her plus empty child, and while frightening didn't quite stick with me the same way "Are you my mummy?" did.

    Muuuuuummmyyy.

    As far as things that were supposed to be scary in Who go…
    1. Gas masks
    2. Angels
    3. Doll people
    4. Clockworks
    5. Daleks
    6. Vashta Nerada
    The shadows weren't doing it for me. If everytime someone had touched the darkness they'd been eaten sure, but quite a few people walked through unscathed plenty of times. Plus the whole thing made no sense, they move incredibly fast and aren't restricted by the darkness but rather hide in it. Which is all well and dandy but why were they hiding? Just made no sense.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    5. Daleks
    Oh, come on. Sure most of the time they don't live up to their potential but the episode Dalek was frikkin' terrifying.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine View Post
    Oh, come on. Sure most of the time they don't live up to their potential but the episode Dalek was frikkin' terrifying.
    True they can spike really high. But also, really really low. *Grumbles about Daleks in Manhattan*
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Hello Curly, sorry you were disappointed with the ep. Have some explanations for your issues though. Cloney is a woman probably because the machine had never done a timelord before, only a human or hath. That would be a mix up. Do remember that the Doctor can become a women potentially. Plus there were other woman soldiers in the camp. Maybe they were installed with feminist traits too. The make up and clothes...maybe the machine puts it on people with a seperate function.

    So glad you got the twist. Quatrich looks old maybe because he was cloned from an old person. Or he's lying about the source to trick people into fighting.

    Martha did serve a function. She showed us that the Hath were not monsters and they needed someone on the Hath side anyway. That's why MtM stayed in the first place.

    Cloney's survival was not due to regeneration. Remember she is part human due to it being a human cloning machine. It was due to her death being in such close proximity to the source. Her survival was to make a sequel hook for future scenarios. Remember, all of the mistakes in Cloney's character were used to make sure River did not have any problems. It helps that Moffat is a better writer than the guy who made "Sunshine on Leith". And it worked, River got a ton of problems unrelated to Cloney instead. Which is why I preach the meme of "Let's Kill Moffat" (pass it on).

    You'll probably guess who the murderer is (Unicorn and the Wasp is a murder mystery) but that's cool. I'll give you a cookie for every Agatha Christie title you can find in the story. It's written by the dude who did the Lodger and Shakespeare Code so it's tons of fun.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Interesting thing about Jenny, originally RTD was going to have her stay dead at the end of the episode. However RTD said Moffat suggested not to, but Moffat has disputed this and I can't find a source for either side so meh.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    'The Doctor’s Daughter‘ (Season Four, Episode Six)
    You are really bad for my sleep pattern sometimes you know. I was just about to go to bed, catch up on the sleep I didn't get Saturday night, and you post a review and I have to read it.
    Though I delayed responding as I was actually almost falling asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    Talk about cack-handed series structure.
    Actually, RTD commented on the series structure on Confidential for either this or the next episode. Not on the point you just made, but apparently he put this episode and the Agatha Christie episode in the middle of the series because they usually had a drop in people watching in the middle, so he wanted to keep people's attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    like when the pot of flesh in the Ganger two-parter took a skin sample from the Doctor and gave us a duplicate Doctor in shape, form and personality. Not sure why he got clothes either now that I think of it.
    I don't think it was a skin sample so much as it scanned him fully. And the Flesh being fully programmable can reproduce clothes as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    It's hard to get emotionally invested in an entire people or species because it's an abstract. And all too often in RTD's era I've noticed a tendency to think bigger risks make a better story. Four of Nine's stories (or six episodes) revolve around the end of the world. Skipping some seasons, this one (including this episode) so far has five stories (or five episodes) centring around the abuse/destruction of an entire species.
    After a bit the possible end of an entire species or world tends to be a bit blasé.
    This is a point I've seen before in previous Doctor Who threads. Though usually with reference to RTD's finales, with each having to be bigger than the last, with higher stakes, more powerful enemies, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    Okay, MtM is clearly a girl, otherwise she wouldn't have had a naked gooey (attempted) kinky scene for her an episode ago, so obviously she would never go anywhere without her phone being well charged because if she didn't then she might - gasp! - miss a call from her friends. Or worse. Her fiancée!
    You're a girl. Remind me, how often is your phone charged?

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    T: "Listen to me, the killing, after a while it infects you. And once it does you're never rid of it." And there is the core of the Doctor's issues and neuroses when it comes to killing, guns, and violence in general. He has a point too. There are many meditations on the dark side of the human psyche, from numerous poems to literature to television and beyond.
    The Doctor's fear of his own dark side is one of the most interesting aspects of his character I think. See A Good Man Goes to War: "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many of them."

    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    T: "I know. I'm just... When I look at her now I can see them. The hole they left, all the pain that filled it. I just don't know if I can face that every day."
    Reminds me now slightly of a Troughton line, in response to "You probably can't remember your family."
    "Oh yes, I can when I want to. And that's the point, really. I have to really want to, to bring them back in front of my eyes. The rest of the time they... they sleep in my mind and I forget. And so will you. Oh yes, you will. You'll find there's so much else to think about. To remember. Our lives are different to anybody else's. That's the exciting thing, that nobody in the universe can do what we're doing."


    Quote Originally Posted by Starscream View Post
    Agreed. That movie hurts me. Songs written by Queen shouldn't sound bad. It's unnatural.
    Yeah, that is not a thing that should happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    Good review, Curly, but I am going to argue one tiny point.



    Several of these weren't genocided, and a couple don't count. The Gelth were blocked from entering Earth to conquer it, but there's no indication that they were all killed. The Doctor only genocided the Daleks once - in Dalek, it committed suicide (although he gave it a go), in Parting Of The Ways it was Rose that killed them all after the Doctor couldn't bring himself to, and in Army of Ghosts he just pulled them out of the world. He also didn't kill the Carrionites, he just trapped them in the pocket world they'd already been trapped in. The Cybermen aren't a species, they're a modification to a species, and are really more of a disease than a group given that it's an unwilling modification that breaks your mind. The Toclafane weren't so much genocided as reverted to be back where they had been before they started murdering everyone, the Clockwork Robots specifically weren't sentient or they wouldn't have been trying to kill people to fulfill their orders, and the Doctor destroyed one fleet of attacking Sontaran soldiers - it was a political attack against an organized invading force, not a targeted destruction of the species. The Krillianites and the Racnoss I will give you, but even then it's iffy; in neither case was he killing them because of their species, he was killing specific people because of their actions. In both cases, he offered them a way out.
    The Krillitanes he didn't either. As Koorly accurately observed, that episode centred around events at one school. The staff of said school were not the entire race of Krillitanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine View Post
    Oh, come on. Sure most of the time they don't live up to their potential but the episode Dalek was frikkin' terrifying.
    On the other hand, they've suffered some pretty bad villain decay, and while the Daleks are scary, they're also simple and straightforward. We understand and can follow what's happening with them, even if what's happening is that everyone is dying. Whereas the Gas-mask child was incomprehensible and creepy as well as nigh-unstoppable, while the Weeping Angels have the point that by their very nature you can never know what they're doing.
    I would put the Daleks definitely above the clockwork droids though, and possibly above the dolls, but I feel the dolls should be above the Daleks, it's just that they failed to live up to the full scariness of the premise.
    Oh, and I'm not sure exactly how scary I'd rate the Vashta Nerada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Which is why I preach the meme of "Let's Kill Moffat" (pass it on).
    You realise you're unlikely to get much traction with that among people who really liked that episode right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_Ikari View Post
    *is too much awesome to behold*

    *runs awaaaaaay*
    Quote Originally Posted by Introbulus View Post
    Decent? Are you kidding? That is an epic win, good sir. *Shakes your hand*
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibar View Post
    Thufir I love the chess set and wish I had my own.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Urgh... I'm late again. Wanted to watch with a friend but she just didn't get to it so now I had to watch on my own AND Late But now I'll enjoy a Curly review, yay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl View Post
    And my teddy bear - protection from the dolls. And the door is open in case I need to run and hide. And the remote is at hand in case I lose it.
    Awwwww! Sorry, I have to agree with Thufir. That's so adorable.

    Rory's all sceptical and - EVIK KIFT>
    SCaremaing and falling and aihrtgndfv;iuhv where are they? Where did they go? Did the monsters take them.
    I wonder if I should start a Curly scared counter... Dropping lifts are old, though.

    He hates clowns (understandable indeed Doctor), and many other things.
    I liked the thing about panophobia... Doctor being wacky, hehe.

    Rory and Amy are in a room somewhere. Tyhere;s someone behind you Rriry
    there;s sisomeone behind you. What are t hey? I see trhings bef
    FDoors. So many doors. They're not dead Rory. And hey, Rory did a callback to
    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\i sae s somryhing walk behind you,.
    2. *pat*

    I doin';t like the music. It
    \asjfbsadjknzv EYTYEasfd \lc EYGYE.EYE Bug blue eye. Big blue glass eye. Inh a drawer.
    3. *hug*

    The Doctor's a thousand and some years old now.
    Hu? Isn't he just 700 and some? Meh, doesn't matter. Just wondering if I got something wrong.

    Dad: "Amything that frightens him, we put it in the cupboard." It'#s the cupbaord from The Hogfather. And it has evil in it.
    It is? o.O Been way too long since I saw that movie... but christmas is so far off... Maybe I'll watch it early this year...
    Also, I'm sure that is like the last thing any therapist would recommend doing to a kid. 'all the scary things are kept here, nice and safe, so don't worry!'

    Candels. Door out, and it's not got no knob. And the hands 0- layughing girls.
    4-ish? *gives a cookie*


    I adore the direction, setting, scenes and what's the thing, framing here. Amazing direction.
    Yeah, and Smith was great there, too, in my opinion. Not that he isn't always good but the wacky stuff... oh my.

    And the Doctor telling Dad all about the universe. I love the Doctor. "You see these eyes., They are old eyes And one thing I can tell you bAlex: monsters are real."
    Dad: "You're not from social servicce are you?"
    He just said 'Trust me' not 'Trust me, I'm the Doctor.' I was sad.

    Granny's being stalked by dollies. Mummy. I don'tlike this or the music. ANd the laughing. Don't cry. Don't cry. Please Curly. Don't cry,
    RUN AWAY FROM THE LAUGHING CHUILDREN IN THAT ROOM. THEY BAD BAD GTins
    bad. Bad./ With the music. DON'TR OPEN THE DOOR>
    snbjfzlx nzjk[
    kbgfj
    gk, y
    It#'s not a du,m,y. It's a thing and it's moinv. And it's kldfcn\z/
    I don't like it. Im crying. Screaming.
    it moved and singing nursery rhymes and I want my mummy
    :needtearyeyedemoticon: Aw, poor girl... Sorry you have to suffer for us.

    Sweetheart, just because you're not their biological baby doesn't m,ean they don't love you.
    Yeah... adoption is the magical word... but apparently it didn't work for the author. Well, minor problem I guess.

    Rory's scared, and sounding so very like the Doctor. And now there's the landldpojw

    yjr folld.\hr' d yutnming yoint rgpo he's thurn fon f #
    he sit t turnedc into a doll and the laughing and the ./ rhy,es/ Rhymes!
    Amy: "Panic. Panic dnow" YOU DON@T WANT TO PLAY. Evil. EVIL. Turning people into dolls.
    #
    I don't what I don't want to watch this epsode
    And
    I don't want wan to atch a bad. Bad.
    (Heck, I was about to cite Curly's 'giddy auntsÄ just now... stupid habits) 6 but a major one. I guess I can understand it with the fear of dolls. Well, it's been almost two days now but I still worry about her. At least I know she will be fine.

    DOOLL LAuggin luaghing and the face and the no eyes it's like the Dicscowlrd book all over again.
    There were scray dolls in a Discworld book? Damn, I'm ashamed right now I can't remember them...

    Tick tock and all too soon you and I must die.
    THE HELL KIND OF RHYME IS THAT.
    Kids like violence... if it happens to the right people. I guess there are some... weird nursery rhymes out there.

    And the sonic is not a gun.
    Totally reminded me of the discussion about Doctor&Guns lately. Wi wonder if giant scissors are a better weapon. (and if the Doctor would have shot it but let's not start on that)

    Aesop@ Only you can save yourself from the monstrers?"
    Obviously. Good one, at that.

    I don't like this all screat and stuck in the cupabiard and I can;t see anything because tears in my eyes.
    Geirgfe naje tghe bad thins go away.
    Girl, stop making me go teary eyed, please? Well, I guess it's way too late for that but still. (To tell you, that is. Not quite there yet)

    Aaaahhhb the dolssl d\efnaz.x
    And a final one. Stopped counting, too worried. 8 or something? Probably more.

    Best Moment: . . .

    Worst Moment: dolls so many dolls singing and laughing and turning you into dolls and t tha i a can't what. ahtkddvod n grojld BAD. I realise this is an emotional thing not a things like what i normally, but dolls everywhere and no.
    Can't stop crying.
    Oh my goodness....

    Worst Special Effect: I can't think I it but none?
    To be honest I thought the man-eating carpet could have been done better.

    And they literally had no practical lights but what the characters had.
    Might have been in the house but outside I really had the feeling the lighting was... off. especially the kid's room. Sometimes really dark and then birght as day. Even between shots. Or I was imagining it? Maybe. Noone else mentioned, I think.

    Puh... that's it... lengthy again, sorry.
    My friend still hasn't seen it. She says she's scared of dolls, too. Guess I'll need to hold her hand when watching. I wonder if I will need a doctor afterwards... (*insert poor joke noise*, sorry)

    No, I liked the episode overall. Yeah, many of the complaints are true and I guess one could have seen it coming. I just expected the doll house when the saw the clock. (I never had a doll house, I don't know they have wooden pans!) The alien cuckoo... was okay I guess. But I think it might could have used some more explanation mostly as to 'why????'. But for a horror episode I guess they did a pretty neat job. I liked Blink more, still. Among others. And since I'm not really afraid of dolls... I guess I'd have smacked their faces in. Until I knew they were people.
    One thing that bugged me was the boy towards the end... I'd have liked some more hesitation to open the cup board. He was just slow but not really... Dunno, didn't feel the fear from him, there. Maybe just me again.
    Not sure what else to say... two days late most stuff was said. Oh, like Thufir (I think): Noticed the 'in the flesh' line but didn't think of the move. I thought it was a call back.

    Next episode looks promising fun. Looking forward to it!


    Reading Doctor's Daughter... later. Tonight or tomorrow. Apparently Curly wasn't happy, I guess I'll learn why then. It's up to personal preference, I guess.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Which is why I preach the meme of "Let's Kill Moffat" (pass it on).
    Forced meme is forced, but not a meme. And anyway, Moffat isn't perfect, but he's miles and miles better than R. T. Davcheese.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Philistine View Post
    Forced meme is forced, but not a meme. And anyway, Moffat isn't perfect, but he's miles and miles better than R. T. Davcheese.
    I believe you mean Russell T Davros- building on his capacity for overly grandiose plans that seem to come unstuck towards the end of the story...
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    You realise you're unlikely to get much traction with that among people who really liked that episode right?
    There are people who really liked it? Let's Kill Moffat only got an AI of 85. That is not great as most stuff gets AI's in the 90's. If something is really bad it usually only gets an AI of 70-75. Even then so bad it's good factor, die hard fans and the easily pleased who switch their brain off often up the score to above that. Let's Kill Moffat ticks so many wrong boxes. Moffat is killing Doctor Who and alienating it from everyone. Alienating it from the kids because when the show is not a 12 rating, it disseminates mawkish "I'll always love you" stuff which only Walter the Softy would endure. Alienating it from the people who want a funny Sci-fi series because it keeps confusing everyone. Alienating it from the Easily pleased because it makes them think. Alienating it from the die hard's because of the schedule gaps. Alienating it from the Rusty Worshipers because Moffat has no sense of drama like Rusty does. Alienating it from the sensible people because of Moffat's wacky views. Alienating it from the so bad it's good because it's not bad enough that the press will hate it enough to call it bad. The only people who Doctor Who will appeal to are the limited clique of people who Moffat talks about the ideas with and the general public on the rare occasion that a writer as good as Moffat was writes a good story. I say Moffat's wife (the producer of Doctor Who) is giving him far too much lee-way. I have an idea for a future episode. The Doctor goes back in time to 2005 to tell Moffat that he's going to ruin Doctor Who when he takes over in 2010.

    Although of course, I do not mean to offend any forum members. I am sure there are exceptions who are not being alienated. Feel free to disagree.

    In lighter news, I hope to get Sunken Valley on finales up soon. GMGTW will be counted as a finale.

    @Kato: Your post did not register on the most recent post. Just saying.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

    Unresolved Plot Point Collection Thread- For OOTS
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    It's nice to see someone saying it isn't for once, the forum IQ did just go up. Please have a cookie Sunken Valley.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry576 View Post
    I thought Sunken Valley eloquently covered the points I wanted to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, exactly.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Philistine View Post
    Forced meme is forced, but not a meme. And anyway, Moffat isn't perfect, but he's miles and miles better than R. T. Davcheese.
    As an individual episode writer, sure, but as a showrunner? I can't agree. He's guilty of the same stuff that RTD was, though he's only had one finale to work with so far. Have to wait and see how he handles his second one.
    Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    There are people who really liked it? Let's Kill Moffat only got an AI of 85. That is not great as most stuff gets AI's in the 90's. If something is really bad it usually only gets an AI of 70-75. Even then so bad it's good factor, die hard fans and the easily pleased who switch their brain off often up the score to above that. Let's Kill Moffat ticks so many wrong boxes. Moffat is killing Doctor Who and alienating it from everyone. Alienating it from the kids because when the show is not a 12 rating, it disseminates mawkish "I'll always love you" stuff which only Walter the Softy would endure. Alienating it from the people who want a funny Sci-fi series because it keeps confusing everyone. Alienating it from the Easily pleased because it makes them think. Alienating it from the die hard's because of the schedule gaps. Alienating it from the Rusty Worshipers because Moffat has no sense of drama like Rusty does. Alienating it from the sensible people because of Moffat's wacky views. Alienating it from the so bad it's good because it's not bad enough that the press will hate it enough to call it bad. The only people who Doctor Who will appeal to are the limited clique of people who Moffat talks about the ideas with and the general public on the rare occasion that a writer as good as Moffat was writes a good story. I say Moffat's wife (the producer of Doctor Who) is giving him far too much lee-way. I have an idea for a future episode. The Doctor goes back in time to 2005 to tell Moffat that he's going to ruin Doctor Who when he takes over in 2010.

    Although of course, I do not mean to offend any forum members. I am sure there are exceptions who are not being alienated. Feel free to disagree.

    In lighter news, I hope to get Sunken Valley on finales up soon. GMGTW will be counted as a finale.

    @Kato: Your post did not register on the most recent post. Just saying.
    And now the council for the other side.

    I think Moffat's run has by far been the best of Doctor Who. It is the only series - old or new - that I have religiously watched every episode of, even the ones that looked a bit pants. I love the complexity - it's about FRAGGING TIME we had some sci-fi that actually had a complex and deep plot (the last one being Babylon 5), one that I can't guess inside five minutes (and even THEN I was actually right, Moffat just obscurificated just enough to keep me from being 100% certain), in this time of steadily "simplifying/streamlining" everything from games to movies to roleplaying systems.

    In my view, Moffat is the absolute best thing to happen to Doctor Who since Terry Nation created the Daleks. Bugger ratings, they are absolutely no indicator of the quality of something (Babylon 5 suffered more than once because of rating stupidity and that is still pretty much the best sci-fi series).

    I want a complicated plot, I want something that makes me think and that is dramatic and humorous by turns, I want a show about time travel that actually USES it, and above all, I want something that shows a shread of decent creativity in the current morass of tired reboots and remakes and rehashing of everything that's already been done.

    *huff* *huff*

    So, yeah. I really like Moffat's series. (But I also like My Little Pony, Pokemon, Naruto, all the Harry Potter books including the epilogue and the Star Wars prequels, so what do I know?)

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