Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Eldan]

Complex plot? Where? I don't think I ever saw any complex plotting this season.

[Eldan]

Complex plot? Where? I don't think I ever saw much complex plotting this season. In fact, most solutions where either pretty silly, or just hair-tearingly obvious.

Also, I can't say there was really much creativity. Half the monsters really just felt like rebuilds of older monsters, or stock creatures.

[Weezer]

The big difference I see between RTD and Moffat is that RTD was all about the melodrama, as evidenced by this scene (From the end of the 4th season, so Curly spoilers). Now that Moffat has taken over even the most serious plotlines rarely have that kind of melodrama, they feel a lot more madcap, a lot more Old Who Doctorey. In someways that can be a bad thing, I just happen to prefer madcap over melodramatic. Though I will admit both of them do a **** job at tying up series archs in the final episode. Moffat however has had only one try, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

[Philistine]

And yet people are complaining about it being "too difficult to follow." Well, one person is.

[thegurullamen]

And now the council for the other side.

I think Moffat's run has by far been the best of Doctor Who. It is the only series - old or new - that I have religiously watched every episode of, even the ones that looked a bit pants. I love the complexity - it's about FRAGGING TIME we had some sci-fi that actually had a complex and deep plot (the last one being Babylon 5), one that I can't guess inside five minutes (and even THEN I was actually right, Moffat just obscurificated just enough to keep me from being 100% certain), in this time of steadily "simplifying/streamlining" everything from games to movies to roleplaying systems.

I'm with this guy. I love the current run of the show and much prefer Moffat's work to Davies'--Eleven's is the only series I own on DVD. I love the arcs, love the characters (Rory is the greatest companion ever and he will punch-out-then-lock-in-a-cupboard anyone who says otherwise) and I love the complex threads woven throughout the series. It's like the tesseract version of Bad Wolf. Sure, the show's got its problems, but from my end, the bad is far outweighed by the good.

Can't wait for new episodes.

[CurlyKitGirl]

This is an awesome summation. If I were her, I would want this on my headstone when I die.

Can't claim the whole credit, someone spoiled the actor allusion for me and posted something vaguely similar.
But if I were her, I'd definitely want that on my tombstone because how often do real life relationships make a wonderfully incestuously ironic moment like that?

Agreed. That movie hurts me. Songs written by Queen shouldn't sound bad. It's unnatural.

It upset me, and made me so sad. Because I adore Queen. And I loved the first Highlander film. So when I saw that. Pain. Unfathomable pain.

Also about who would be running the universe from now on. Oh, and who is or isn't a tin dog.

In the wider application yes. But in the more immediate sense it was about saving the schoolchildren. Like with 'The Empty Child'/'The Doctor Dances' there was the wider dangers of the Blitz, and saving the world from the gasmask conversion, but they focussed that bigger danger down into one doctor, one group of soldiers, a group of street children and Nancy.
Imply the bigger, make it about the bigger, sure; but the immediacy needs to be about a smaller group of people.
The Doctor was so happy because everybody lived. And those hundred odd people (nearly all extras I might add) represented all of humanity. And Nancy, Jamie and the other children in turn represented all those hundred odd people who were made into gasmask people.
And Nancy herself represented all the scared and frightened children she looked after.
Smaller focus, but the larger things were kept in mind too.

Please tell me you've checked out those mini-episodes. You must see them.

And I will. After season five.

I think you'll like this one much better. It's hilarious.

Agatha Christie is one of my very favourite authors.

Jenny is a special case. The way it was presented I sort of assumed (loads of fanwank incoming) that the machine scrambled his DNA along with a "base" human to create a new being hence his shock at discovering she had two hearts and her partial regeneration.

[...]

I agree though that it would have been better had she regenerated.

Then give me a line. That's all they needed to do. Have one line after he found out she had two hearts, "But that machine has two base codes: human and Hath, this shouldn't be possible," and I'd have been fine with that.
But because there wasn't even the slightest explanation the only conclusion is that the machine can clone whatever sample it's given, and that makes Jenny 100% Time Lord.
And yes, would have been so much better if she regenerated because now she's an anomaly in fifty odd years of show history. And I don't like that.
But for all the people who've seen Classic Who (or even read books or heard the audio dramas) has there ever been another case of a Time Lord regenerating properly and not also changing appearance? We're not talking botched regenerations, or only-faking-dead regenerations or anything else. I mean, is clinically and actually dead even by Time Lord standards and then regenerates.
HEY! In 'Utopia'/'The Sound of the Drums'/'Last of the TIme Lords' wasn't it mentioned that Time Lords can sense one another as long as they're not using their watch thingies? So how can the Doctor didn't sense Jenny was a Time Lord the moment he -
oh.
Oh.
Moffatt, if it turns out that he didn't sense River because she's only part Time Lord, and Jenny comes back and it's the same I think I will kiss you. Because that would be brilliant.

Good review, Curly, but I am going to argue one tiny point.

[...]

Several of these weren't genocided, and a couple don't count. The Gelth were blocked from entering Earth to conquer it, but there's no indication that they were all killed. The Doctor only genocided the Daleks once - in Dalek, it committed suicide (although he gave it a go), in Parting Of The Ways it was Rose that killed them all after the Doctor couldn't bring himself to, and in Army of Ghosts he just pulled them out of the world. He also didn't kill the Carrionites, he just trapped them in the pocket world they'd already been trapped in. The Cybermen aren't a species, they're a modification to a species, and are really more of a disease than a group given that it's an unwilling modification that breaks your mind. The Toclafane weren't so much genocided as reverted to be back where they had been before they started murdering everyone, the Clockwork Robots specifically weren't sentient or they wouldn't have been trying to kill people to fulfill their orders, and the Doctor destroyed one fleet of attacking Sontaran soldiers - it was a political attack against an organized invading force, not a targeted destruction of the species. The Krillianites and the Racnoss I will give you, but even then it's iffy; in neither case was he killing them because of their species, he was killing specific people because of their actions. In both cases, he offered them a way out.

Or believed he had. Or inadvertently did. I also missed out the 'Tried to' part.
Genocide is defined as ""the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, Race (classification of humans) , religious, or national group", but when it comes to sci-fi I also include 'accidentally' in the definition because it is very possible to accidentally destroy an entire race/species etc. without meaning to.
Spoilers for length.

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The Gelth: intimated to the Doctor they were the last of a dying race, hence his desire to save them all. Later we find it was because they lost their bodies in the Time War, and as such the Doctor probably felt more of a need than usual to help them.
The TARDIS wiki confirms that all the Gelth were killed when the Rift was closed.
The Daleks: every time the Doctor has encountered the Daleks he has tried to genocide them. My count for this is 'Dalek' because he wanted to and would have; 'Bad Wolf'/'Parting of the Ways' because, for me at least, he was complicit in, or assisted in it. However, I will concede your point, but I will add he felt no remorse or guilt over destroying the Daleks, and this time, he fully believed they were gone. Third is 'Army of Ghosts'/'Doomsday' because he trapped them in the space between dimensions, something he calls "worse than Hell". Fourth is 'Daleks in Manhattan'/'Evolution of the Daleks' because of the death of the 'human Daleks', and that he went after the proper Daleks again. I wasn't sure whether to count these or not, so I erred on caution's side and counted them as a whole attempted genocide.
The Cybermen: he considered the 'human Daleks' a new species even though they truly were an abomination to all senses, and were a disease forced upon people. If he considers one a new life form, so too must he consider the other one. Moreover, despite their 'unnatural' beginnings, they have a culture, a civilisation, warships, tactics and are sentient creatures. They're a species now, even if it can't procreate naturally.
I'm also given to understand that Cybusmen and Cybermen (as I'm told there's a difference between Nu and Classic Cybermen) are two different versions of the same people/'species', and that Classic Cybermen are or were a species in truth that assimilated themselves into the suits they now wear. So I consider this at least a partial genocide given 'Army og Ghosts'/'Doomsday'.
The Carrionites: I was given to understand that, while they were in their bubble world they weren't truly alive, but I see your point and can now downgrade it from genocide to 'eternal imprisonment of an entire species'.
The Toclafane: were originally the humans on the space ship to Utopia and I wasn't sure whether or not they counted as humans or not. But I decided to count them as a species, and he undid their development. It's a bit technical to say the least, but causing a species to not have existed is still genocide.
The Clockwork Robots: point. But in sci-fi shows it's hard to tell when 'robot' becomes 'sentient being', so I erred on this side.
The Sontarans: I don't want to get into politics, so I'm going to say only this: genocide can be political, and often, it is. In many of the cases above the Doctor had a choice: 'save one race, or save the other', and here, as with many other examples, the choice was obvious because there was an aggressor race.
Another issue with deciding whether genocide was committed or not in a sci-fi show is you can't really tell in most cases. A Sontaran battle cruiser is only one battle cruiser in a massive fleet; but at the same time it was said explicitly to be an AWOL battle cruiser that had split from the main Sontaran ideals. Either way I would estimate there to be over one million Sontarans on the battle cruiser, which is a very sizeable number. I was lary about this one, as destroying a battle fleet is only a battle fleet, and I will concede to your arguments here too.
The Krillitanes and Racnoss: And in many cases, sometimes the last of a species is one family. I hemmed and hawed about putting the Family of Blood here, because it could conceivably have been the last of a species/race/group, and in the end I decided not to because these people were definitely alive somewhere in the normal universe. And mostly because I couldn't be certain whether the Family could be considered a race/etc.
I also wasn't one hundred percent certain whether they were the last of the Krillitanes or not, they were definitely the last of a clan. And Giles' own words seemed to imply that every clan had a unique DNA structure due to their assimilatory nature. So I called genocide.

I hope that explains more why I chose the species/races I did. There probably are more, given I have most of a whole season left to see, and probably haven't included all possible examples from Nu Who so far.

Hello Curly, sorry you were disappointed with the ep. Have some explanations for your issues though. Cloney is a woman probably because the machine had never done a timelord before, only a human or hath. That would be a mix up. Do remember that the Doctor can become a women potentially. Plus there were other woman soldiers in the camp. Maybe they were installed with feminist traits too. The make up and clothes...maybe the machine puts it on people with a seperate function.

And I would have accepted that if someone had thought to throw in a line or something expressing confusion. See, I don't think you can take a male's DNA and get a female because the gene thingy is XY/XX/XYX. You can't just magically lose a Y and gain an X. I accept that the Doctor has female potential, and it would have been fun to have a line like 'so that's how I'd look as a woman', but it wasn't, and until recently I think it was only fanon that Time Lords could change sex.
And I don't know why people would be installed with feminist traits, especially as no other soldier seems to display them, and it's hardly like they had time to custom programme her or anything. And if it was only females who had these traits that is massively misogynistic. And there aren't any male feminists? Bull.

So glad you got the twist. Quatrich looks old maybe because he was cloned from an old person. Or he's lying about the source to trick people into fighting.

And maybe the females were cloned from females.
Either way, it's still bull. See, this was a colony ship. So there would be a lot of older men and women and Hath around to provide leadership and expertise. There should have been no older people, or more of them.
This was just to make the Colonel your grizzled clichéd warmonger.

Martha did serve a function. She showed us that the Hath were not monsters and they needed someone on the Hath side anyway. That's why MtM stayed in the first place.

One that could have been filled by any other person. If you can imagine any other person in that role, that character serves no purpose but to be the eyes of the audience. A walking blank.
Tell me this, honestly. If Martha and Donna's roles had been switched, would anything plot related have changed? Character-wise, there would have been because we'd have had less Donna/Doctor interaction to further their development. But as far as the plot goes Martha could have been Donna and not much would have changed.
Aside from fixing that one dislocated shoulder, was there anything specifically Martha about her subplot? She was underused. And I don't even really like Martha, but I know when a character is underused.

Cloney's survival was not due to regeneration. Remember she is part human due to it being a human cloning machine. It was due to her death being in such close proximity to the source. Her survival was to make a sequel hook for future scenarios. Remember, all of the mistakes in Cloney's character were used to make sure River did not have any problems. It helps that Moffat is a better writer than the guy who made "Sunshine on Leith". And it worked, River got a ton of problems unrelated to Cloney instead. Which is why I preach the meme of "Let's Kill Moffat" (pass it on).

One: unless it's stated in the show or by Word of God, Jenny is pure Time Lord.
Two: her death wasn't because of the Source, but because she was shot with a gun. Just like the Master. The Mast chose not to regenerate.
Jenny regenerated. Late, but she regenerated.
The reason I have issues with her regeneration is, in part, because it was so delayed, but I think I can let that slip because regenerations are tricky things. I'm pleased she regenerated, it's what Time Lords do, but to have such a delay makes it such annoying sequel bait. Like 'ha ha ha tricked you, lol lol lol the rules you believed were ruined are true'. Either they should have stuck to their guns, making it clear that there was something not-Time Lord about her, or have the regeneration happen a lot faster.
I can see how Jenny's in part a tester for River Song, but did anyone really know when the scripts for this season had been finalised that River Song was going to come back later on? How would Stephen Greenhorn feel to know that his own character is being used as a tester for River Song?
See, I remember seeing or hearing at one point that only Stephen Moffatt knew everything about River's character and that everyone else finds out bit by bit. Hell, in one Confidential (and a Radio TImes interview) the main characters didn't even know how this season would end until they filmed it.

You'll probably guess who the murderer is (Unicorn and the Wasp is a murder mystery) but that's cool. I'll give you a cookie for every Agatha Christie title you can find in the story. It's written by the dude who did the Lodger and Shakespeare Code so it's tons of fun.

Mr. 'Shakespeare Code' wrote this? Well, hello research. I'll take you up on your Find the Story Reference game. Haven't seen 'The Lodger', but it does sound interesting now I know Mr. 'Shakespeare Code' wrote it.

[QUOTE=Thufir;11786240]Blah Blah Blah stuff[/spoiler]

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Actually, RTD commented on the series structure on Confidential for either this or the next episode. Not on the point you just made, but apparently he put this episode and the Agatha Christie episode in the middle of the series because they usually had a drop in people watching in the middle, so he wanted to keep people's attention.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that two very very similar stories were next to each other.

I don't think it was a skin sample so much as it scanned him fully. And the Flesh being fully programmable can reproduce clothes as well.

Same thing in my opinion. A skin sample is a DNA can, a full scan also takes personality traits too.

This is a point I've seen before in previous Doctor Who threads. Though usually with reference to RTD's finales, with each having to be bigger than the last, with higher stakes, more powerful enemies, and so on.

And bigger isn't better. I get that as a season finale it has to be something special, but why not make it special because we get a character not a spectacle. So I am looking forward to 'The Wedding of River Song' because it looks to be the last piece in her story, and be character drama rather than samey action scenes.

You're a girl. Remind me, how often is your phone charged?

I don't like mobiles.

The Doctor's fear of his own dark side is one of the most interesting aspects of his character I think. See A Good Man Goes to War: "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many of them."

Well yeah. He's the last of the Time Lords (more or less), what's to stop him from solving everything by going back in time and plucking out the problem at the root?

Yeah, that is not a thing that should happen.

Oh, Coorly: Happy Freddie Mercury's birthday.

I celebrated happily. It is a good day. And after linking that film, I carefully removed it from my memory.

Urgh... I'm late again. Wanted to watch with a friend but she just didn't get to it so now I had to watch on my own AND Late But now I'll enjoy a Curly review ['Night Terrors'], yay!

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Awwwww! Sorry, I have to agree with Thufir. That's so adorable.

Can't a teenager still have a teddy bear? And I was really scared. Seriously.

I wonder if I should start a Curly scared counter... Dropping lifts are old, though.

I know, but the thing is I was already really tense because I knew about the dolls. Maybe an overreaction, but when you get worked up, you get worked up.

I liked the thing about panophobia... Doctor being wacky, hehe.

Of course. Eleven's lovely because he's away with the faeries half the time. And he's easily distracted.

2. *pat*

[...]

3. *hug*

You make someone face a phobia in the middle of a horror/suspense story in one of the more consistently scary shows ever made they're going to get scared.
I mean, when virtually every episode contains something that scares part of the audience, no matter how small, said show is scary.

Hu? Isn't he just 700 and some? Meh, doesn't matter. Just wondering if I got something wrong.

He claimed to be, what, 908 at the start of Nu Who, although apparently he was also this old around Six/Seven and it's canon he's forgotten his true age, so he picked 900 as a new start.
In 'The Impossible Astronaut' he said he was 1100 odd when he got shot. He's halfway there. Was going to point this out, then scary happened. And the scene moved on.

It is? o.O Been way too long since I saw that movie... but christmas is so far off... Maybe I'll watch it early this year...
Also, I'm sure that is like the last thing any therapist would recommend doing to a kid. 'all the scary things are kept here, nice and safe, so don't worry!'

Well, there's a terrifying cupboard that was evil and ate people. Didn't contain anything unlike this cupboard, but many children are afraid of the monster in the cupboard.

4-ish? *gives a cookie*

*eats*

Yeah, and Smith was great there, too, in my opinion. Not that he isn't always good but the wacky stuff... oh my.

Being the Doctor is probably one of the hardest roles around at the moment. He has to be wacky and silly, but at the drop of the hat be able to turn on his "old eyes" and the aura around him that makes Daleks fear him.
But more than that, he has to be serious, irreverent and run the entire gamut of human emotion (and then the alien ones) all the time. He has to react in an inhuman way to things that would repel a human, he has to gaze in wonder at something that would terrify a human, and where a human thinks something is lovely, he has to know that it's actually a terrible thing.
Nine could do this marvellously, Eleven is alien in so many ways, and he can do old and powerful man in a young, physically unimpressive body so well. Ten is . . . he can do this, well, but sometimes it's too manic, or too intense, or it just feels off.
Sometimes it feels unnatural.

He just said 'Trust me' not 'Trust me, I'm the Doctor.' I was sad.

The situation was very serious, and the shout out/call back would have been fun to the audience, ruining the moment.

:needtearyeyedemoticon: Aw, poor girl... Sorry you have to suffer for us.

I try to entertain. Or provoke discussion or show another view point.

Yeah... adoption is the magical word... but apparently it didn't work for the author. Well, minor problem I guess.

In all fairness to Gatiss (and the story) the moment was meant to be a revelation and a shock to the dad, so it's not like he could just turn around and say "I love you anyway".
And then on top of finding out that your son isn't actually your son (think like his wife had committed adultery), it was that his son was alien.
Shock like that really would stop most thoughts like that, and then he found himself in a doll's house being stalked by HORRIBLE THINGS.

(Heck, I was about to cite Curly's 'giddy auntsÄ just now... stupid habits) 6 but a major one. I guess I can understand it with the fear of dolls. Well, it's been almost two days now but I still worry about her. At least I know she will be fine.

'giddy aunt' things? Oh, when there's a surprise. Huh, a running gag?
That was pretty much my epic freak out, but for a doll to be able to turn you into one with all that background magic and the rhymes and the look and the effect and the oh my i need to stop now before i
I got over it fairly quickly. My comfort food was downstairs waiting for me along with dinner. It was calming. I also slept with my Sunshine Bear and had nice calming music on my Not-Pod while I slept.
No need to worry, and I thank you for your concern.

[QUOTE=Kato;11786665]There were scray dolls in a Discworld book? Damn, I'm ashamed right now I can't remember them...[.quote]

Eyes as the windows to the soul. THe eyes were empty and blank and I didn't like them. I think there is a general suspicion of dolls in that series though, but I can't verify it.

Kids like violence... if it happens to the right people. I guess there are some... weird nursery rhymes out there.

I love my nursery rhymes and all the gore involved. But at the time, with the dolls and everything . . . no. Very effective though.

Totally reminded me of the discussion about Doctor&Guns lately. I wonder if giant scissors are a better weapon. (and if the Doctor would have shot it but let's not start on that)

Mostly my fault. >.>
I found the giant scissors pretty funny actually, and it was so silly.

Obviously. Good one, at that.

I did enjoy that aesop even though it was literally shouted out at us, because it was part of the story. A seamless part of it. Plus it wasn't an Anvil, but a nice aesop straight from a fairy tale.

Girl, stop making me go teary eyed, please? Well, I guess it's way too late for that but still. (To tell you, that is. Not quite there yet)

It's probably not too late, I have a lot of things to write about, so it could still pop up. I won't though, because if I can't evoke an emotion, even one as simple as disagreement, then my goal of writing these sort of things isn't fulfilled.

And a final one. Stopped counting, too worried. 8 or something? Probably more.

This'll be the seventh that you mentioned. There probably were more.

Oh my goodness....

Dolls are evil. But I really do love 'Night Terrors', it's a very strong story and there were a lot of very good moments, even if some of them are a little cliché. See, the atmosphere was pretty much perfect, and it glosses over a lot of the flaws.

To be honest I thought the man-eating carpet could have been done better.

It was actually done with very simple effects, and it was still pretty damn good.

Might have been in the house but outside I really had the feeling the lighting was... off. especially the kid's room. Sometimes really dark and then birght as day. Even between shots. Or I was imagining it? Maybe. Noone else mentioned, I think.

I think that's deliberate. It adds to the unsettling atmosphere of the entire episode, both inside and outside the doll's house. Call it a subliminal message that says that there's something wrong and otherworldly going on.

Puh... that's it... lengthy again, sorry.
My friend still hasn't seen it. She says she's scared of dolls, too. Guess I'll need to hold her hand when watching. I wonder if I will need a doctor afterwards... (*insert poor joke noise*, sorry)

She'll need it. Oh, and ask her if she wants the light on or off. Off adds to the atmosphere and tension, but it's scary like scary.

No, I liked the episode overall. Yeah, many of the complaints are true and I guess one could have seen it coming. I just expected the doll house when the saw the clock. (I never had a doll house, I don't know they have wooden pans!) The alien cuckoo... was okay I guess. But I think it might could have used some more explanation mostly as to 'why????'. But for a horror episode I guess they did a pretty neat job. I liked Blink more, still. Among others. And since I'm not really afraid of dolls... I guess I'd have smacked their faces in. Until I knew they were people.
One thing that bugged me was the boy towards the end... I'd have liked some more hesitation to open the cup board. He was just slow but not really... Dunno, didn't feel the fear from him, there. Maybe just me again.
Not sure what else to say... two days late most stuff was said. Oh, like Thufir (I think): Noticed the 'in the flesh' line but didn't think of the move. I thought it was a call back.

It probably isn't as scary for people who don't like dolls, and yeah, there are flaws, but this is still what I call a real time episode for much of the show. So too much explanation could have ruined the flow. Definitely the tension.
It could have done with elaboration the morning after, but I don't think the dad really wanted anything more.
Maybe it was explained between the resolution of the plot and breakfast.
I'm fine with not knowing everything about the monster, and in episodes like this where you need claustrophobic atmosphere, tension and character reactions I'm more willing to let things like this slide.
What can I say, I love character episodes more than action ones as a general rule of thumb.
And the atmosphere of any episode is key. If I can't buy the atmosphere, or feel it, the episode loses something.
Plus it helps that it was a horror about one of my greatest fears.

[Sunken Valley]

And now the council for the other side.

I want a complicated plot, I want something that makes me think and that is dramatic and humorous by turns, I want a show about time travel that actually USES it, and above all, I want something that shows a shread of decent creativity in the current morass of tired reboots and remakes and rehashing of everything that's already been done.

*huff* *huff*

I agree with Aorts Commander. In fact, I think everyone whose a fan of this webcomic prefers a complex plot. But let's be honest, there is a complex plot and there is a contorted plot. Moffat's is so contorted that the people who like complex plots can't understand. Moffat is like Rich Burlew with a stutter. Pure Genius, but he keeps stuttering so much you can't understand it. This stutter is a literary stutter not an actual one. I do not intend to insult real stutterers. Moffat says that when writing two-parters, instead of resolving the cliffhanger, he likes to move the scene away from the cliff hanger and then come back to the main story in an unexpected way. THAT'S NOT HOW YOU WRITE A STORY! It only works once before it starts annoying people. It worked in "Silence in the library". Not now.

Also, Moffat has not written one finale. He's written 1.5. Due to the split GMGTW is a finale of sorts. Not to mention he wrote the opening two-parter "like it's the finale".

@CurlyKitGirl: What I meant was that Jenny came back to life because of the Source being activated just before her death. Rusty says that Jenny is not a full time lord. You are probably thinking right now, oh god, Sunken Valley has declared war on Moffat. Again. I hope you agree with my opinions.

EDIT: You will need to watch "the Lodger" before 24th September. Mr "Shakespeare Code" is doing a direct sequel to it. Lodger is season 5 ep 11. I don't care if you don't do a write up on it, just watch the damn thing.

[Weezer]

I agree with Aorts Commander. In fact, I think everyone whose a fan of this webcomic prefers a complex plot. But let's be honest, there is a complex plot and there is a contorted plot. Moffat's is so contorted that the people who like complex plots can't understand. Moffat is like Rich Burlew with a stutter. Pure Genius, but he keeps stuttering so much you can't understand it. This stutter is a literary stutter not an actual one. I do not intend to insult real stutterers. Moffat says that when writing two-parters, instead of resolving the cliffhanger, he likes to move the scene away from the cliff hanger and then come back to the main story in an unexpected way. THAT'S NOT HOW YOU WRITE A STORY! It only works once before it starts pissing people off. It worked in "Silence in the library". Not now.

I don't find it hard to follow, he seems to be doing a good job of slowly revealing the intricacies of a convoluted time line. I haven't had any trouble grasping what Moffat was trying to portray, I couldn't predict much of it, but that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Mercenary Pen]

Just a thought, this is the second episode in a row which has involved miniaturised people- do you reckon this is a deliberate running theme, or entirely accidental?

[CurlyKitGirl]

Forced meme is forced, but not a meme. And anyway, Moffat isn't perfect, but he's miles and miles better than R. T. Davcheese.

I believe you mean Russell T Davros- building on his capacity for overly grandiose plans that seem to come unstuck towards the end of the story...

Heh, these two amuse me even though I don't fully get them. I suppose I will after the season four finale though. There was a contentious resolution to that too wasn't there?

There are people who really liked it? Let's Kill Moffat only got an AI of 85. That is not great as most stuff gets AI's in the 90's. If something is really bad it usually only gets an AI of 70-75.

Um. No.
Seriously, no.
The average Doctor Who episode since the revival tends to get 85 or higher. It currently has the highest AI for any drama on television.
An AI of 85 or higher is considered excellent. 90 or over is exceptional, and very seldom does any TV show aired on terrestrial channels ever get 90 or higher. As of 2009 the highest AI ever received on any channel received in Britain was 97 on SkyOne for a US import.
The BBC tends to get an average AI of 80.
60 or less is considered poor.
Please get your facts straight first.

Even then so bad it's good factor, die hard fans and the easily pleased who switch their brain off often up the score to above that.

Yes. Because fans of this show don't think about it, enjoy discussing it, or view it as anything other than something to fill forty-five minutes of your life.

Also, the AI is based on the first impressions of about three and a half thousand or so people. Viewing figures are a bit better though.
Reception for 'Let's Kill Hitler': an AI of 85, which is pretty much the show's average since it's revival, it was the second most watched show in its slot, number one the next day on iPlayer and the most requested show in the entirety of Augst. The actual critics writing for proper newspapers and review sites have for the most part, found the episode to be a good one.
Because people who are paid to write reviews are 'die hard fans', the 'easily pleased' and people who turn their brains off to watch this show.

Let's Kill Moffat ticks so many wrong boxes. Moffat is killing Doctor Who and alienating it from everyone. Alienating it from the kids because when the show is not a 12 rating, it disseminates mawkish "I'll always love you" stuff which only Walter the Softy would endure.

So you can only interest children if it's got a 12 rating or higher?
And romance is bad. Gotcha. Even though the romance isn't really front and centre in these episodes.
He has hit some wrong notes as a show runner, no doubt, but the ratings are consistently high, and there is a lot more reach and scope in Moffatt's run so far than there was with RTD. Moffatt is more adventurous than RTD, doesn't rely on epic scope and spectacle as much, and because the show under his hand has done a lot more things in a shorter time frame there are going to be poor episodes, average episodes and extremely good ones.
Trying new things is always difficult because you don't know what works until you air it.
But I digressed.
What you're saying is that children are only interested by bright flashing lights, action and gore. I find that highly offensive.
And as for romance? Ten words: RTD. Rose. Nine. Season Two. RTD. Martha. Ten. Season Three.
And it was all so obvious and in your face there. While we now have a married couple as Companions there's actual chemistry between them meaning that it tends to come to the fore more often, but it works. It's not mawkish.
Mawkish means 'sentimental in a feeble or sickly way', it means 'excessively and objectionably sentimental', 'sickening or insipid'. To me, that's what I'd call Rose/Ten and Martha/Ten. Amy/Rory isn't feeble or objectionable.
It's present more often because they're married. And married people are meant to love each other.
And children love a bit of romance. Example: most of the Disney animated canon. WALL-E, Star Wars had Han Solo and Leia. Star Trek had romance. Twilight is nothing but mawkish romance and it's most popular demongraphic (yes, that's intentional) is tweenage girls.
Children like romance.

Alienating it from the people who want a funny Sci-fi series because it keeps confusing everyone. Alienating it from the Easily pleased because it makes them think. Alienating it from the die hard's because of the schedule gaps. Alienating it from the Rusty Worshipers because Moffat has no sense of drama like Rusty does. Alienating it from the sensible people because of Moffat's wacky views. Alienating it from the so bad it's good because it's not bad enough that the press will hate it enough to call it bad.

And now I go: how.
Tell me how.
Doctor Who has never been 'just' a funny sci-fi show. Ever. It was started as an educational show.
This show is fifty years old. The reason this show is still going when even Star Trek and Star Wars pretty much exhausted themselves is because you never know what you're getting. Sometimes it's a murder mystery like what I'm getting next write up. Sometimes it'll be an ethical meditation on morals (because I know about that scene from 'Genesis of the Daleks'), sometimes it's nothing more than a silly romp through space.
That's the joy of the show: a TARDIS to go anywhere the writer wants, and a new main character who is the same character. Everything else changes. Everything.
You can't please people with a show that shifts genres so quickly and often no one can even tell what to classify the show as other than 'a family show', but there will be something to please everyone eventually.
I didn't like the show gap, but 2009 was a year of specials, that's a show gap. I don't know why it happened, but it didn't alienate me from the show.

The only people who Doctor Who will appeal to are the limited clique of people who Moffat talks about the ideas with and the general public on the rare occasion that a writer as good as Moffat was writes a good story. I say Moffat's wife (the producer of Doctor Who) is giving him far too much lee-way. I have an idea for a future episode. The Doctor goes back in time to 2005 to tell Moffat that he's going to ruin Doctor Who when he takes over in 2010.

No.
This again is crass generalisation verging on something infraction-worthy.
Now you know something, I'll tell you a story.
About a girl, called Curly, who was a very casual watcher of Doctor Who, she loved season one, even though she missed a few episodes. Then when season two started she kept meaning to watch it, but things got in the way. 'No biggie', she think most weeks, 'I don't really mind'.
The only episodes she ever made it a point to watch were those by Stephen Moffatt because he wrote that amazing gasmask two-parter.
But then season three came about and well, by then she'd miss about two-thirds of season two, and she basically stopped watching it, Moffatts aside.
And in 2010 she found out he was taking over the show. 'This is fantastic! I can't wait to watch them, I really want to catch every episode this time'. But she missed the beginning because of family things, and then uni came about, and she didn't know about BBCiPlayer back then, and well, season five slipped away from her for the most part.
So the sixth started and she knew about BBCiPlayer. So she watched every single episode. And then she found some online places to catch up the show, and because she wanted to know more about the show, to get into it and understand all the references she started watching the older seasons.
And then she started her write up things.
I've basically watched RTD and Moffatt's eras in parallel, and I vastly prefer Moffatt. And to be blunt, I am not the general public, I am a very picky person who tends to analyse as she goes, and while I've not seen a full season of Moffatt yet, I like the flavour of his seasons more. There's more variety. There's more risks. They don't all work, but they're finally taking advantage of the TARDIS.

Although of course, I do not mean to offend any forum members. I am sure there are exceptions who are not being alienated. Feel free to disagree.

In lighter news, I hope to get Sunken Valley on finales up soon. GMGTW will be counted as a finale.

I actually think those who are alienated are in the minority. There are things viewers don't like, we've had many discussions and arguments over the fact, but I can't really think of many people who've claimed to be alienated by Moffatt's general show running.
Moffatt has his faults, I agree with you. He is a very good writer, and his concept of River Song is very ambitious, and it could have failed so badly. But it hasn't yet, and I'm enjoying her puzzle piece past a lot right now.
But I tend to be on the side of Aotrs Commander because I like an interesting plot, and this season arc isn't just 'one race wants to take over the world/solar system/galaxy/universe', it's out for something else.
What, I don't know other than the Doctor's death.
This isn't a contorted plot. This plot is dripped out very slowly, and the answers aren't given to us in massive chunks. When we're told answers they tend to make us ask more questions (which is very good) and the answers we're told are small, but interesting.

He's experimenting with plots and how to present them. Got to admire the man for some variety. He still might fail, I think this season's finale will be his make-or-break deal as show runner. Overall I like RTD (Rose obsession aside), but I love Moffatt more right now. That can all change.

[Philistine]

There are people who really liked it? Let's Kill Moffat only got an AI of 85. That is not great as most stuff gets AI's in the 90's. If something is really bad it usually only gets an AI of 70-75. Even then so bad it's good factor, die hard fans and the easily pleased who switch their brain off often up the score to above that. Let's Kill Moffat ticks so many wrong boxes. Moffat is killing Doctor Who and alienating it from everyone. Alienating it from the kids because when the show is not a 12 rating, it disseminates mawkish "I'll always love you" stuff which only Walter the Softy would endure. Alienating it from the people who want a funny Sci-fi series because it keeps confusing everyone. Alienating it from the Easily pleased because it makes them think. Alienating it from the die hard's because of the schedule gaps. Alienating it from the Rusty Worshipers because Moffat has no sense of drama like Rusty does. Alienating it from the sensible people because of Moffat's wacky views. Alienating it from the so bad it's good because it's not bad enough that the press will hate it enough to call it bad. The only people who Doctor Who will appeal to are the limited clique of people who Moffat talks about the ideas with and the general public on the rare occasion that a writer as good as Moffat was writes a good story. I say Moffat's wife (the producer of Doctor Who) is giving him far too much lee-way. I have an idea for a future episode. The Doctor goes back in time to 2005 to tell Moffat that he's going to ruin Doctor Who when he takes over in 2010.

Although of course, I do not mean to offend any forum members. I am sure there are exceptions who are not being alienated. Feel free to disagree.

Momentarily setting aside the absurdity of the "popularity = quality" argument, you are simply wrong on the facts. Officially, "average" AI is 80, with 85 being the threshold for "excellent," and in practice BBC One dramas reportedly average 84 - so your claim that "most stuff gets in the 90s" is patently false. For Nu Who more specifically, the average AI has been:

• S1: 82.77 1076/13
• S2: 84.43 1182/14
• S3: 86.21 1206/14
• S4: 87.8 1668/19
• S5: 86.15
• S6: 86.5 (before "Night Terrors")

So an AI of 85 is slightly below average for S3-6, but would be a somewhat above-average episode of S1 or S2. And if "Let's Kill Hitler" is slightly below-par for a Moffat-penned episode (average AI 86.75), it's about what you should expect from a Davcheese-penned episode (average AI 85.37). (Point of interest: Nu Who has dropped below 80 AI only twice in five and a half seasons - both were episodes written by Davcheese.) And of course the average AI of Nu Who during Moffat's tenure to date (86.28) is higher than it was for Davcheese's run (85.53) - S4 is the only reason it's even close.

As far as raw viewership, the numbers look like this:

• S1: 7.95
• S2: 7.96
• S3: 7.61
• S4: 8.42
• S5: 7.73
• S6: 7.71 (before "Night Terrors")

Viewership is down from the S4 peak (Did we really need any more proof that Donna Noble was the Best Companion Ever?), yes, but still better than Season 3. I really don't see "alienating everyone" in those numbers, much less "killing the franchise." (Oddly, the least-liked (per AI) seasons were also some of the most-watched. It seems odd to me, at least.) Overall, it's been very consistently in the 7.5-8 million viewers range in the UK, and it still is.

TL;DR: Take a few minutes to get your facts straight before you complain about "quality dropping" and "losing viewers."

[Sunken Valley]

OMG, I upset Curly. . Sorry.

About the 12 thing, I mean that the fact that Doctor Who is a 12 in the Moff regime is bad. I think a 6-9 year old should not be watching a 12. They should not be allowed to watch "Almost People". "Almost People" was so close to a 15 it's unbelievable.

I was annoyed when I wrote that post. Sorry.

[Reverent-One]

(Point of interest: Nu Who has dropped below 80 AI only twice in five and a half seasons - both were episodes written by Davcheese.)

Since you felt like pointing that out, there's a similar point of interest to be mentioned, NuWho has only risen above 90 AI twice in five and a half seasons - both were episodes written by "Davcheese".

[CurlyKitGirl]

Momentarily setting aside the absurdity of the "popularity = quality" argument, you are simply wrong on the facts. Officially, "average" AI is 80, with 85 being the threshold for "excellent," and in practice BBC One dramas reportedly average 84 - so your claim that "most stuff gets in the 90s" is patently false. For Nu Who more specifically, the average AI has been:

• S1: 82.77 1076/13
• S2: 84.43 1182/14
• S3: 86.21 1206/14
• S4: 87.8 1668/19
• S5: 86.15
• S6: 86.5 (before "Night Terrors")

So an AI of 85 is slightly below average for S3-6, but would be a somewhat above-average episode of S1 or S2. And if "Let's Kill Hitler" is slightly below-par for a Moffat-penned episode (average AI 86.75), it's about what you should expect from a Davcheese-penned episode (average AI 85.37). (Point of interest: Nu Who has dropped below 80 AI only twice in five and a half seasons - both were episodes written by Davcheese.) And of course the average AI of Nu Who during Moffat's tenure to date (86.28) is higher than it was for Davcheese's run (85.53) - S4 is the only reason it's even close.

As far as raw viewership, the numbers look like this:

• S1: 7.95
• S2: 7.96
• S3: 7.61
• S4: 8.42
• S5: 7.73
• S6: 7.71 (before "Night Terrors")

Viewership is down from the S4 peak (Did we really need any more proof that Donna Noble was the Best Companion Ever?), yes, but still better than Season 3. I really don't see "alienating everyone" in those numbers, much less "killing the franchise." (Oddly, the least-liked (per AI) seasons were also some of the most-watched. It seems odd to me, at least.) Overall, it's been very consistently in the 7.5-8 million viewers range in the UK, and it still is.

TL;DR: Take a few minutes to get your facts straight before you complain about "quality dropping" and "losing viewers."

*applause*
You basically got what across what I wanted to say re: popularity =/= quality, as well as found all the AI/viewing figure stats that I couldn't find.

OMG, I upset Curly. . Sorry.

Eh. You have your opinion, I have mine. I was a little annoyed too, and oddly, mostly with how your structured your argument.
It was more of a (if you pardon the word) whine than anything else. And it was a whine without substance.
I love me a rant, a complaint, an argument, and even a whine, but only if it got something behind it be it merely opinions or facts.
I also find it a bit silly that you find all these things to complain about simply because this show accidentally created one of the best story machines ever.
The TARDIS.
It goes anywhere, everywhere, anywhen and everywhen. They can literally write whatever they want, and because of that the tone, feel and genre of every episode is going to be different from the last.

About the 12 thing, I mean that the fact that Doctor Who is a 12 in the Moff regime is bad. I think a 6-9 year old should not be watching a 12. They should not be allowed to watch "Almost People". "Almost People" was so close to a 15 it's unbelievable.

How so? What constitutes the difference between a 12 and a 15?
And remember, this is officially marketed as a family show, although it has a large audience of children. They can handle some violence and adult material.
Also: the second ever serial in Doctor Who ('The Daleks') is a 12 when released on DVD. This show is violent, it has adult themes, and that's one of the attractions.
Children can handle a lot of things providing the good guys win.
Case in point: Scar was eaten by hyenas onscreen, but in shadow. The same film had Nazi imagery and had Mufasa trampled by death in a stampede.

I was annoyed when I wrote that post. Sorry.

And I was annoyed writing mine.
Unfounded arguments can do that to me.

[Dienekes]

Hmm, I seem to have missed the big Moffat vs Davies confrontation. All I'll add on the Let's Kill Moffat front and at the surprise that people liked the episode. Looking through the initial reactions on this very thread the only negative review was Sunken Valley's. Most others found it awesome (myself included) and one was conflicted because it didn't revolve around Claus von Stauffenberg.

[Philistine]

Being the Doctor is probably one of the hardest roles around at the moment. He has to be wacky and silly, but at the drop of the hat be able to turn on his "old eyes" and the aura around him that makes Daleks fear him.
But more than that, he has to be serious, irreverent and run the entire gamut of human emotion (and then the alien ones) all the time. He has to react in an inhuman way to things that would repel a human, he has to gaze in wonder at something that would terrify a human, and where a human thinks something is lovely, he has to know that it's actually a terrible thing.
Nine could do this marvellously, Eleven is alien in so many ways, and he can do old and powerful man in a young, physically unimpressive body so well. Ten is . . . he can do this, well, but sometimes it's too manic, or too intense, or it just feels off.
Sometimes it feels unnatural.

I've speculated to Rabbit that the issue with Tennant may be a result of the differences between stage acting (where I understand he's very good) and screen acting. Stage acting in general requires actors to play larger - not only in order to "sell it to the cheap seats" when cameras can't zoom in on an actor's face to pick up the subtle tics of powerful emotion kept tightly under wraps, but also to keep audience attention where it's supposed to be when there's no camera to show them which characters and actions are important via framing and focus. Taking stage techniques to on-screen work, though, results in over-acting: you have to tone your performance down when playing to the camera, because the camera is going to do so much of the work for you. Going the other way is a problem, too - a "subtle, nuanced" performance on camera is likely to just look flat on stage, and will be very vulnerable to being upstaged (something that's much harder to do on-screen, assuming that your camera crew, director, and editor are even semi-competent). So there are two distinct skill sets involved, and they're not interchangeable except in the broadest terms. And FWIW, I did think Tennant got better over the course of his run - in early S2 he annoyed me even more than Rose did, but by S4 he'd become much more bearable.

[Yana]

Moffat is about the only TV writer I know that can confuse me so thoroughly that I can't see straight, yet enjoy the episode anyway due to witty dialogue/delivery and the ultimate conclusion. Having seen other works that he's had a hand in in the past, namely Jekyl and Sherlock, I'm fully confident that no matter how convoluted the story may appear to me, he knows how to wrap it up.

Saying that this season is incredibly confusing before its resolution makes no sense to me. Wait until the dust settles at the end to go nuts about whether Moffat as the showrunner is the worst thing to happen to the Whoverse since (insert least favorite aspect of show here.)

As for me, I love being confused, so long as I either figure it out/am fed the solution at the end.

[Xondoure]

Moffat is about the only TV writer I know that can confuse me so thoroughly that I can't see straight, yet enjoy the episode anyway due to witty dialogue/delivery and the ultimate conclusion. Having seen other works that he's had a hand in in the past, namely Jekyl and Sherlock, I'm fully confident that no matter how convoluted the story may appear to me, he knows how to wrap it up.

Saying that this season is incredibly confusing before its resolution makes no sense to me. Wait until the dust settles at the end to go nuts about whether Moffat as the showrunner is the worst thing to happen to the Whoverse since (insert least favorite aspect of show here.)

As for me, I love being confused, so long as I either figure it out/am fed the solution at the end.

I'd expect a human version of the master to be able to keep up.

[Thufir]

There were scray dolls in a Discworld book? Damn, I'm ashamed right now I can't remember them...

Not to my recollection, but there was a villain/monster with no eyes.

There are people who really liked it?

Holy balls that was good.

In other news, awesome episode in my opinion,

I honestly think this is one of Moffat's best episodes.

Yes, I'd say there are people who really liked that episode.

I say Moffat's wife (the producer of Doctor Who) is giving him far too much lee-way.

Where are you getting that from? Moffat's wife is not the producer of Doctor Who.
She's the producer of Sherlock as I recall, maybe that's what's confusing you? But according to wikipedia, the only Doctor Who she's ever produced was Curse of Fatal Death.

See, I remember seeing or hearing at one point that only Steven Moffat knew everything about River's character and that everyone else finds out bit by bit. Hell, in one Confidential (and a Radio Times interview) the main characters didn't even know how this season would end until they filmed it.

Steven Moffat was the only one who knew until around the start of filming for series 6, when he told Alex Kingston. Everyone else working on the show found out when they got the script for A Good Man Goes To War, and even then the bit about her being Melody was kept a secret from some, with a fake ending stuck in its place in their scripts.

I celebrated happily. It is a good day. And after linking that film, I carefully removed it from my memory.

Like Holly got Lister to do to him with the Agatha Christie books!

Can't a teenager still have a teddy bear? And I was really scared. Seriously.

They most certainly can (Though you're no longer a teenager). I still have all my soft toys.
The fact you grabbed Sunshine Bear to protect you from the dolls is still adorable though.

He claimed to be, what, 908 at the start of Nu Who, although apparently he was also this old around Six/Seven and it's canon he's forgotten his true age, so he picked 900 as a new start.

I personally like to believe that in addition to him being absent-minded, timey-wimey shenanigans play havoc with his age. I imagine a scene of him scribbling down some ridiculously complicated incomprehensible Time Lord mathematics, and explaining when asked by a Companion that he's trying to work out how old he is.

Not to mention he wrote the opening two-parter "like it's the finale".

In the sense that it was a big expensive expansive two-part episode yes, but not in other respects which are rather crucial to the nature of a finale, such as resolving storylines (In which respect AGMGTW fails to fit the criteria as well - it being the middle of the series, everything can still be left up in the air).

I think a 6-9 year old should not be watching a 12. They should not be allowed to watch "Almost People". "Almost People" was so close to a 15 it's unbelievable.

Seriously? What was so bad about it?
I'm pretty sure I would've been fine with it when I was 6. To be honest, I think the ratings of TV shows and films in general underestimate children.

[Starscream]

I personally like to believe that in addition to him being absent-minded, timey-wimey shenanigans play havoc with his age. I imagine a scene of him scribbling down some ridiculously complicated incomprehensible Time Lord mathematics, and explaining when asked by a Companion that he's trying to work out how old he is.

I posted this once before, but I like to think that by the time of the new series he's going through a midlife crisis.

* Lies about his age.
* Wears leather jacket.
* Starts hanging out with a 19 year old blonde.
* Keeps giving himself makeovers to look younger and younger.
* Tricks out his ride.

Just wait, soon he's going to buy himself an electric guitar.

[Sanguine]

* Keeps giving himself makeovers to look younger and younger.

To be fair both Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant were older than Peter Davison was when they started playing the Doctor.

[SuperPanda]

Alright, First off: Thank you for continuing your reviews Curly, I know I've disappeared for a while after calling you Kitty for so long, I got busy durring the summer and now I'm taking a break from preparing for my new lecture course that starts next week (Changed what level I'm teaching over the summer).

To chime in on the Davies vs Moffat debate:

I have the most unusual of feelings about the whole thing and I'm not sure entirely what it is. On the one hand I agree that virtually everything Moffat is doing he is doing better than Davies, each individual episode is better and the directing, acting, writing all seem to be objectively better. The problem is this though, I'm not enjoying it as much as I used to.

I love Moffat's new approach to two parters. I became frustrated before when almost every two parter was "lets set up a cliffhanger which didn't really need to be a cliffhanger, resolve it in a few seconds and get back to the plot." It works really well for a while, but it was often annoying that the cliffhanger which had been built up didn't seem to matter. Even though I don't like them however the examples which spring to mind right away were mostly done very well:

Good: Empty Child/Doctor Dances - worked for me because of the comedy in "Go to your room!" If it hadn't been funny I wouldn't have liked it.

Counter: Silence In the Library/Forrest of the Dead - Now I loved that episode, but pulling a prop/plot deivce/call back to a character not involved in the plot out of no where to get you out of the corner your cliffhanger put you in felt forced and annoying. A few lines of dialog with River asking about Jack to call back to the squarness gun (and in confidential they said it was jack's squareness gun which she apparently got out of the TARDIS on a previous (for her) adventure) would have made that seen better. They wouldn't have needed to mention the gun, either Jack or the banana groves would have been enough to make the scene flow well.

Davies did a similar one I liked in Utopia/Sound of Drums. I think he was a bit clumsier about it than he could have been, but I think it worked well for what it was.

Moffat's "new" style - Pandorica Opens/Big bang - Comedy counts for alot. On the one hand I was annoyed that the Doctor lets himself out of the Pandorica because he let himself out of the Pandorica. On the other hand it was handled so hands down amusingly that I didn't care. This is exactly the kind of crazy caper and sillyness that I loved during Ten's run. 11 gets few of those moments and stories, which is a shame because he does them very well (this is probably where my diminished enjoyment is coming from).

(Silence part 1)/Day of the Moon - It was awesome and epic, until I stopped to think about it. The three missing months, something leading up to them, something to indicate what had happened when Amy shot the astronaut early on would have been much better. I loved it, but it was jarring and it hadn't needed to be.

A Good Man goes to War/Let's kill the guy in the closet - While I loved the Sontoran nurse, I was underwhelmed by A Good Man Goes to War specifically because of the in universe hype and reveal. The Doctor's Never rise higher/fall further bit was a let down as was River's reveal. I mentioned at the time that having the girl soldier who sided with them be the real river song would have been amazing, that and I think River was already a fun and great character without needing to have her be part timelord (and Amy/Rory's daughter, and the Doctor's love interest, and the "most wanted war criminal ever"). I don't think she's a Sue, but she's getting into Rose territory for me, the difference being that She's written and acted very well so far.

Now had River turned out to be that young girl who sided with Amy, who had on that day fallen in love with the doctor even while helping set this trap and the next one (using Amy and Rory's child), and had even been responsible for killing eleven or Rory at the end of the season, that would have been a wonderful twist for Moffat to pull.

So, now that I've gotten to rambling I'll sum up:

Davies made for a fun and funny ham and cheese fest of a show that was wildly entertaining without seeming to take itself too seriously.

Moffat makes for a fun and frightening myth and magic show that is wildy entertaining while mostly consistently having high production values.

if Moffat's run didn't seem to take itself so seriously then I think I'd enjoy it alot more. If Davies had let up a bit on the "most epic confrontation eva!" I'd have enjoyed it alot more.

Somewhere between the two (though admittedly closer to Moffat than Davies) is perfection.

On my Doctors - 9 was a lovable rogue with anger issues. 10 was a lovable geek who could get a bit whiny. 11 is fun madman who can get a bit dickish at times.

My enjoyment of the show may be diminished because the Hero is no longer as likable as before (though he's still pretty likable) and has definately been diminished by how seriously it started taking itself. This is Doctor Who: It is a very big name of wacky sci fi which shouldn't ever take itself seriously because when it doesn't take itself seriously it becomes serious business and when it does take itself seriously it becomes goofy man vs pepper pots; which isn't very serious.


Edit: Oh and for Starscream

I posted this once before, but I like to think that by the time of the new series he's going through a midlife crisis.

* Lies about his age.
* Wears leather jacket.
* Starts hanging out with a 19 year old blonde.
* Keeps giving himself makeovers to look younger and younger.
* Tricks out his ride.

Just wait, soon he's going to buy himself an electric guitar.

Spoiler

Show

[Dr. Simon]

Doctor Who has never been 'just' a funny sci-fi show. Ever. It was started as an educational show.
This show is fifty years old. The reason this show is still going when even Star Trek and Star Wars pretty much exhausted themselves is because you never know what you're getting. Sometimes it's a murder mystery like what I'm getting next write up. Sometimes it'll be an ethical meditation on morals (because I know about that scene from 'Genesis of the Daleks'), sometimes it's nothing more than a silly romp through space.
That's the joy of the show: a TARDIS to go anywhere the writer wants, and a new main character who is the same character. Everything else changes. Everything.

Just quoting to say: This. So much this. What's more it can be all those things in a single episode sometimes.

Oh, and, SuperPanda, loved that cartoon. Where's it from?

[SuperPanda]

The Comic is Rich Morris's "The 10 Doctors" which he set between Series 2 and 3 of NuWho.

Here is a link to the archive: http://comics.shipsinker.com/archive.php?arc=10doctors

started it around the time it was "set" but it took him a while to finish it. So not everything lines up Canon wise, but its still fun all the same.

[Eldan]

I'd like to thank Superpanda for stating my opinion better than I ever could.

I'd just also like add: I like hammy acting. It's fun and entertaining in a show that doesn't take itself seriously. And I think I liked Who better when it didn't take itself seriously. Because at it's heart, it's a silly, silly show. There are rhino-headed space policemen and robots in the shape of pepper shakers. It can get surprisingly deep, scary and sad at times, true, but at it's core, it's still a silly show.

As for A Good Man Goes to War: I sincerely hope that we haven't actually seen the Doctor Rising/Falling yet. Because I don't feel I've seen him rise or fall. Taking the station was good, true, but he has done similarly cool things before. And I don't think he massively failed, let alone fell. Falling would, to me, imply that the Doctor would go dark. Darker than ever. Which he didn't.

[Sunken Valley]

Half way through Sunken Valley on finales, but that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to leak info on "Girl Who Waited".

Spoiler

Show

The Doctor is taking his companions on holiday (i'll be talking about this in "on finales" but more about that later), to an alien planet that looks alien. They find out that the Planet is home to a deadly disease and Amy gets trapped in a quarantine area. The white robots are sanitising bots (I see why they moved the pirate ep and the doll ep as two eps with sanitising bots and two episodes with dolls/patchwork people do not go well together). The Doctor and Rory escape but the Doctor can't go back to the planet as the disease is lethal to double hearted species. But he can use the TARDIS to break quarantine. Then Rory has to get her back himself. Meanwhile Amy is trapped in a faster timestream. This ep will test the pond relationship to the limit. Guest Starring Imelda Saunton aka Professor Umbridge! If this ep I do not like then my recent complaints will have actually just been because I don't like timey wimey stuff. Because this ep is the timey whimeyest of them all.

[Aotrs Commander]

The Comic is Rich Morris's "The 10 Doctors" which he set between Series 2 and 3 of NuWho.

Here is a link to the archive: http://comics.shipsinker.com/archive.php?arc=10doctors

started it around the time it was "set" but it took him a while to finish it. So not everything lines up Canon wise, but its still fun all the same.

And I just lost half the day reading that...

Good, though!

[Thufir]

I knew someone had theorised the Doctor was going through a mid-life crisis before, couldn't remember who though. That, and I have read The Ten Doctors.

I became frustrated before when almost every two parter was "lets set up a cliffhanger which didn't really need to be a cliffhanger, resolve it in a few seconds and get back to the plot."

To be honest, I think that was fairly typical of Classic Who as well. Have to end an episode on a cliffhanger, but at the start of the next episode you need to get on with the plot

Davies made for a fun and funny ham and cheese fest of a show that was wildly entertaining without seeming to take itself too seriously.

Moffat makes for a fun and frightening myth and magic show that is wildy entertaining while mostly consistently having high production values.

if Moffat's run didn't seem to take itself so seriously then I think I'd enjoy it alot more. If Davies had let up a bit on the "most epic confrontation eva!" I'd have enjoyed it alot more.

See, I look at these differently. To me, I feel that RTD's tenure had things taken rather seriously, with the Doctor being all angsty about the Time War and Rose and so on. Also the "most epic confrontation eva" as you succinctly put it, solved sometimes with things totally ridiculous and impossible to take seriously - except the characters clearly were taking them seriously.
Whereas under Moffat's supervision, Eleven is "an intergalactic wag", he's on a big old romp through space and time with his best friends, going on adventures and generally having a brilliant time. Yes, it has serious stuff going on, but it doesn't detract from the fun nature of it, and equally the ridiculous doesn't ever detract from things which need to be taken seriously.

[SuperPanda]

I can definitely see where you are coming from on your take of Davies vs Moffat.

On cliffhangers: I'm struggling to find a way to say that I don't like a cliffhanger's resolution diminishing the fact that it was a cliffhanger in the first place.

Empty Child/Doctor Dances = good. The character admits that he was out of ideas and just glad that one worked.

Silence in the library/Forest of the Dead = not so good. Still loved the episodes but the cliffhanger of "We're trapped with no where to run!" is completely mitigated by "Oh, I've got this wonderful thing which, had I mentioned it earlier, would mean there was no tension at all."

On the Taking things seriously. I'm not sure how I can explain what I mean in that. Davies obviously took his confrontations and melodrama too seriously. This is what lead to "Most epic confrontation eva!"

Moffat obviously takes somethings too seriously as well. This is why the Doctor is the most important man in the Universe. Lets face it, he is the most important man in the Universe because he's the one we tune in to watch. Part of the fun I had watching 10's run was that he always thought himself the most important man in the universe and was so often shot down (especially when Donna was around). 11's Doctor knows he is the most important man in the universe and doesn't get shut down nearly often enough, he actually has to try to down play himself.

Little things: Amy being imprisoned is justification for him to blow up an entire fleet of cybermen just to make a statement. Killing 11 is the biggest war crime in history and makes Adolf Hitler look like a small time criminal. River song is both the most wanted war criminal in history and the Doctor's love interest.

Instead of needing "The most epic confrontation eva" Moffat seems to be going for the fact that anyone he is giving screen time to is "the most important individual who has ever lived." Amy, 11, and River have all had their turns. Actually, this is the main reason I love Rory so much right now.

As awesome as Rory has been, he hasn't been made out to be incredibly important yet.

When Davies ran things, the show was so fundamentally goofy most of the time that it was hard to imagine working on the show not being incredibly fun most of the time with a bit of "serious business" or "oh my goodness, you want me to do what?" going on. With Moffat in charge there is what looks like a lot of "Serious business" and a bit of "you want me to do what?" and goofy fun.

Moffat's run looks more professional which is a good thing in many ways. It might be the lack of Ham and Cheese, as I said before, it might be the way 11 has rather jerkish qualities that come out in a believably alien way, it might be the increased focus on making things creepy and/or scary, it might just be that I'm not liking River's story line very much because I loved Season 5 and I've enjoyed 6 but not as much as 3 (minus tinkerbell) 4 (minus the finale) or 5.

So, to sum up: Even though I notice that everything is objectively better under Moffat's run, I find myself enjoying the show less than I used to. I'd like to get over this because I absolutely love Doctor Who.

On the other hand, Davies's Torchwood has really come into its own and I've Loved Children of the Earth and Miracle Day. I think he's found a niche he works very well in and that Davies represents a very unrefined mind that has potential for greatness.

Moffat seems like a genius who is convinced everyone else is a bit thick. When he sits back and has fun, he's amazingly funny. When he sits back and does scary, he's amazingly creepy. When he stands up to say "Attention: This is Awesome!" its just as corny as Tinkerbell Doctor to me.

I think Davies helping tone down/weave together Moffat's stories was a good thing. I'd like to see Moffat sand down and polish some Davies stories too, because I think that when these two work together you can't help but get TV gold.

For me, case in point: Night Terrors (not written by Moffat) was Fear Her done right (Fear Her was not written by Davies either).


Now, since I've challenged the sanctity of the grand Moff not once but twice, I'm going to go sit with a fire extinguisher... in case of flames.

[Kato]

Davies made for a fun and funny ham and cheese fest of a show that was wildly entertaining without seeming to take itself too seriously.

[...}

if Moffat's run didn't seem to take itself so seriously then I think I'd enjoy it alot more.

Really? I always took it RTD took stuff way too serious which why things turned out stupid *coughjesusdoctorcough* Maybe I misinterpreted but it felt to me like RTD was going for something really serious there and imho failed miserably.
Moffat on the other hand, though he is serious at times is overall much more easy going easily proven by the time paradox sheningans in Big Bang.
No offense but I see little that could convince me of the opposite.


So then, Doctor's Daughter, next. Work has to wait. Before that, I'm pleased Curly tried to answer all my post but it's not necessary if you don't fell like it. And maybe I'm wrong with that but I'm sorry if you felt patronized or otherwise offended. It just was really adorable (yet sad), somehow. Anyway, off to read...

Spoiler

Show

Wearing make up. How did a clone get born wearing clothes (perfectly fitting clothes) and make up. Just look at those panda eyes and general eye shadow, lippie and so on. And where did she get her hairband from?

Not to argue against how ridiculous it is but I'd rather not have seen a (half)-naked clone popping out of the machine. Heavy on the accessoires she is, yeah.

And I suppose I ought to mention this now. The girl playing the Doctor's clone is Georgia Moffett. Peter Davison's daughter. The Doctor's 'daughter' is literally the Doctor's daughter. Then she and David Tennant got engaged. They also have a daughter. The Doctor's daughter grew up, acted as the Doctor's daughter, married the Doctor and had the Doctor's daughter.

It's a neat story, if nothing else. I guess that's why Moffat wanted her to stay alive, so Davison's daughter might get another chance to play a role without needing to explain why she looks just like someone who dies earlier.

And last episode Clone!MtM was born from bubbly green with no clothes on, and I don't know where she liberated Martha's clothes from either. I mean, seeing a gooey naked Martha walking around would draw some attention.

I'm not good at such things but was Martha clone make upped when she got out of the goo? I'd guess this would be just as bad a problem as the clothing. If you'd go really far you might argue since the whole thing is for making soldier clones it got an integrated... dressing machine thingie. It makes at least a little sense. Doesn't explain half the other stuff, though.

[...] and Boy DNA is not Girl DNA. But Cloney's all up for fighting, raring to go in fact.

I think people noted it but... well, timelord DNA isn't human DNA. And different cloning devices could theoretically either make copies of the current shape or whatever possible shape that matsches the DNA. However timelord DNA works.

Donna's awesome. Martha is not.

That's harsh. True, but harsh.

Ah, another thought: this is the episode 'The Great Divide' from A: tLA. Or any other film or episode of a show in which the protagonists become separated and end up staying with one side of a conflict, wind up utterly converting to that side's arguments and beliefs re: the plot, and this will all be some silly misunderstanding by the end of the episode.

Yeah, it's an old story... it's been done hundreds of times. But many things can be traced back to something like that. Though, it at least has some twist to it.

You know, I was a 'biological accident'. Many children are 'accidents'.
So yeah. You can extrapolate a relationship from a biological accident. It's called being a parent.

Urgh, I know I'll get no love for that but I'll say it anyway: Being the biological offspring of someone doesn't make you parent/child but raising/being raised together. At least that's the much more important part in my book. And thus, the Doctor's right, she is not his daughter (even though, yeah, she's not, anyway but clone)

You had the Doctor in Voyager (but let's not talk about that).

I liked the Doctor... but yeah, Star Trel did it better mostly because there the characters where around for seasons, not episodes. I guess they should have stayed away from it, though...

Look up 'hypocrite' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of the Doctor with the caption 'I change my opinions based on the writer, and sometimes for no reason but the plot!' written under it.

Yeah, that's a big issue with shows that went so long and with so many different writers... also, they have different views on what the Doctor is like. For some he is Jesus and for some he is... dare I say human? He makes errors and he gets angry and lies. Not saying it's not to criticize but well... the writer's to blame, I guess. (Meh, who else. Okay, we could put it on the show runner, too, but if we blame the show runner for every poor line in a season where would that get us?) But yeah, it'd be nice if there was a more consistent characterization.

You know, I'd like for that to happen. The Doctor sides with the 'wrong' side and dooms an entire people because of it.

I'd like to see that too but in a good manner. It's not a bad thing to see the Doctor make mistakes but I've rarely seen it in a really good fashion. Siding with the wrong people... hm... I have a strange feeling of this happening once but... no, wait, that was Stargate I'm thinking off. Sorry!

And that's exactly the wall I've run into the past few episodes when it comes to the Doctor. He is and has been a soldier. He aims for pacifism, but so often falls into pacificism, he understands pragmatism while at the same time being, and aiming for idealism in all things. And I think that's why I like Nine and Eleven better than Ten in many regards.

Yay, learned a new word (in my defense: There's no respective word in German, as far as I can tell from a quick check)
Yep, that's Ten's (and kind of Nine's but not so much) great issue: He claims to be a pacifist but is so much more a pacificist. Thank you so much for teaching me that easy word to explain this. Now I just need to find a way to get it in the German dictionary...

And I am compelled to link that savages video again, because that's where this story comes from. A super-simplified, distorted account of an historic event, adapted into a Disney film is the source of this episode.

Not to argue but as well as Pocahontas displayed how ridiculous the whole thing is it was hardly the first time. I guess it's not age old because I guess a society needs some kind of pacifist movement to think 'hey, maybe the enemy is just like us' it's been around for... a while, at least. (I guess it early Christians might have been among the first pacifists but... well, we know they didn't stick to it forever. Anyway, drifting off, sorry.

And I still think the Disney film is better than this episode.

Of course it is!

The Doctor's still all . . . it's not racist or speciesist, and I don't think clonism is a real thing, but he's a clonist. He even asserts the Cloney is "just like them" [the other cloned, militaristic humans] and deserves to stay in prison. Thus implying that her mere existence is a crime.
Wow Doctor. Wow.[...]

Not sure if someone else pointed that out (too much discussion, too poor memory but) as good a moment as any to talk about it. I don't think the cloning is the Doctor's issue. I think it's the 'pure/born soldier' bit. I can't think of an instance but I don't think the Doctor has ever shown any dislike to sentient, feeling clones. It's the bit about 'being bred for war' that puts him off and he himself being used for it. And that Jenny forces him to face the soldier inside him, the bit especially Ten has issues with as you pointed out earlier. It's the (pseudo) pacifist who dislikes Jenny not some... clone... hater. Or that's what I took from it, iirc.

T: "You're an echo. That's all you are. A Time Lord is so much more. A sum of knowledge. A code. A shared history. A shared suffering. And it's gone now. All of it. Gone forever." Don't you dare make me A:TLA you! Because I will! The last is the last until there is more. She is (until she dies) a chance to bring back the Time Lords in a fashion. Just plunk your hands in the machine a few more times, the DNA bits get remixed in many different ways, so it's not quite incest, find them a nice safe planet, tell them to shag like bunnies, and build some kind of machine that teaches the history, ethics, code and skills of the Time Lords.
Not perfect, they'll never be what they once were, but it's a chance, and a chance is more than you had before.

Oh wow, I just saw a field of Tens and Elevens and Jennys and Rivers and... other Time Lords 'shag like bunnies' on a wide open field. That was... slightly disturbing. (and kinda hot at the same time. Sorry )
Yeah, the other problem... Maybe she just reminds him off what he lost and partially destroyed himself (Master) not too long ago. Maybe he doesn't want to believe in that ray of hope or.. something. Or he thinks it's more like incest than you? I'll not get into that.

Finally the second post. I'm rambling again and I hate when I do it. Yet Curly makes my rusty brain gears turn and I like that happening.

Radiation, and radiation spikes, don't mean a thing unless you specify some type of radiation. This is Doctor Who. Make something up.

Sure? I'm not that well versed in medicine but as tthe opinion of a physicist: Lots of radiation is bad. Pretty much no matter what kind of. Yeah, they could have picked some specific radiation but if I blast you with anything apart maybe from the visible spectrum (heck, probably even that has some effect) you won't like it if you try living in it. The thing with your radon example... global average and most security standards ( at least in the EU) are so strict you could probably live with ten or even 100 times the threshold. They like to play things safe. Long story short: radiation means something, if it's intense enough, no matter what. But back on track, sorry.

And well, you're not sexy. Unlike Amy Pond, so pretty and sexy. I'll be in my bunk.

Damn you Curly for making the perfectly appropiate Jayne quote I wanted to make after seeing the pictures...

Surely when you stuff you normally use socks.

Does the doctor need to stuff? Guess we have to ask someone who knows. Where is Rose the who-who-shall-not-be-named when you need her?

and the Hath have had maybe seven minutes onscreen all told. If you don't have a personality or a distinguishing feature of any sort, how am I meant to tell who this person is or why I should care?

I think it was just an anvil to hammer in 'the Hath are no monsters but they also feel compassion' for... whoever didn't get it yet. I won't link it but... viewers are morons.

D: "I tell you something, Doctor, something I've never told you before. I think you're wrong." Although this is a bit odd. You've told him he was wrong a lot. 'The Fires of Pompeii', 'The Runaway Bride' and a few other times.

Inconsistent writing is inconsistent. I guess that line would have worked better for a different companion... though I think even MtM disagreed with him at times so it must have been some Old!Who companion who always licked his heels.

And this sight suddenly makes everyone drop arms because the breath of God is the breath of God even if it has a basis in scientific fact. Sorry, but no. As much as an idealist I am, and I am, this sort of thing doesn't happen. Only time I can remember is the famous Christmas Truce, and after that they went right back to killing. You don't just stop fighting.

Yeah, mostly on your side here. Though. too slightly argue for the writer: It's about like Jesus just happened to appear before a Christian army I guess. Whatever happens there is like a miracle in their book so I guess it might happen, unlikely but possible,

Nine wasn't sad about regenerating into Ten. He was looking forward to it, so you should have just told Cloney she was going to regenerate and he was going to see her in a few minutes!
HELLO!

I need to see more Old!Who to comment on that but as far as I know different writers interpret regenerations in different ways... Not saying the scene worked great just saying for the records.

And why is the Doctor, the last Time Lord in existence (give or take some) asking MtM a human Doctor about Time Lord abilities?! That's like having my brother walk up to me and ask me about Warhammer 40k! I ain't gonna know nothing about it bar what he told me.
So stoopid.

Okay, that's really stupid. No idea what sense that made in anyone's head.

And what do you mean "She's like you [Doctor], but... maybe not enough." If you take DNA only from a Time Lord and use the pure Time Lord DNA to make a clone, said clone is going to be one hundred percent Time Lord.

Well, again, depends on how the cloning device works. Let's see, the 'easy way' for a cloning device was to take the nucleus of a cell, place it in an egg and speed it's development. So, since the machine probably has no Tine Lord eggs it used a human egg which is I guess a possible reason why she is not 'quite a Time Lord# or whatever. Heck, here I go making excuses for the writer when I usually tend to bash at any slightly poor science. Sorry. But yeah, you can blame a lot on a loose use of the word 'clone' and 'daughter' and stuff. Writers should make their bad science less bad more often.

Why did you warp one of the few established facts of TIme Lord biology?

Except Rusty kicked that 'established fact' in the nuts already in the season three finale... and then I could go on about not wuite Time Lord again. Sorry, Curly, I don't know why I'm arguing so much this time. Just saying it's not the first time this was done. And other Time Lords I guess didn't have to change shape? (well, the only thing I can remember is Romana looking however she wanted in that one old who episode)

Because Cloney's a bit of a sexpot? So what. Get another one. Or get this . . . get a plain person in to be Cloney. Girls don't have to be pretty.
So stupid.

True as it is I blame it on lazy... or as said earlier, keeping Davison's daughter around, maybe.

Preview thoughts: AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! AGATHA CHRISTIE! And aliens! And AGATHA CHRISTIE! You guys. Agathie Christie! All up in my Who. Also dead people and Scotland yard and a giant wasp.
Dudes. They're getting Agatha Christie to solve a murder mystery where the culprit is a giant wasp. So, where's the unicorn?
AGATHA CHRISTIE!

... I didn't quite get that. WHO will be in the nexz episode?



Overall recall: Despite me often arguing I have to admit the episode was much weaker than I remembered it. I guess I took Jenny for a more interesting character (or was distracted by the sexy too much) and I kind of liked her calling the Doctor out on his pacifist views though I guess in my memory the ending seemed more like a compromise than a victory for the Doctor but apparently... yeah, the Doctor didn't learn a lesson, everyone else did. Honestly can't remember if I could call the 'war for a week' twist. I don't think so. I just took it as a stupid mistakes whenever something didn't make sense.
Of course looking back when you know the truth lots of the things make sense (as it should with a good twist) but there's still much that should need a better explanation... Well, I thought it was good enough back then.
I dare wager the thing that rubbed you pretty badly, except for anything Jenny-related was the pacifist/war theme which dominated the whole thing. So... without Jenny and/or the war them, would you have considered it a better episode?

Aw, f***. Turned out way more than I planned to say. But it's typed down now. Might as well post it.