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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Exelbirth View Post
    That is one freaky looking gunslinger.
    It's "Six Shooter" (get it???) from the Puppet Master film series (horror).
    And it's one of the few images of a multi-armed gunslinger I could find.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-09-21 at 07:56 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    I have some free time, and Cieyrin seems to be behind on his handbook schedule, so I figured I'd attempt to help out.
    (To Cieyrin: feel free to use/edit what you want)

    Multiclassing/Prestige

    The Gunslinger is a fairly front-loaded class. This makes it easy/less painful to dip into or out of it.

    Gunslinger breakpoints (when it's good to get out)
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    Gunslinger leveling goes in a circle. Excluding the first level it follows this pattern:

    Gun Training > Nimble > Deeds > Bonus Feat > *repeat*

    The easy stopping points are every multiple of 4. This is because Gun Training bonuses after the first tend to be poor, and Nimble is already a minor bonus. And if you've gone far enough to gain more Deeds you may as well take that extra level for the Bonus Feat.

    Level 1: Level 1 is VERY frontloaded. You get choice of Firearm, Gunsmithing Feat, a Grit pool, and a small selection of deeds. Extra bonus for Musket Master who gains Rapid Reload for free, and Mysterious Stranger who gets their Cha-to-Damage at this level (they don't get Dex-to-Damage).

    Level 5: This is the level where the Gunslinger gains Dex-to-Damage, which is the BIG bonus, this is where most 'Slinger dippers will stop. (unless you're a Mysterious Stranger, their natural Dip-Stop is the Feat at Level 4)

    Level 8: Nothing fancy here, gained some Deeds last level, got a feat this level.

    Level 11/12/13: This one's a little fuzzier. Level 11 is important because it gives you access to the Signature Deed feat, which lets you reduce Grit costs of Deeds. Level 12 is just a Bonus Feat. Level 13 is where Musket Masters and Pistoleros get the ability to ignore all misfires with their chosen weapon.

    Level 16: Similar to level 8, nothing fancy.

    Level 20: True Grit is basically a double helping of Signature Deed, kicked up a notch. You can apply it to a 'need 1 Grit' deed to make it a 'use whenever you want, even if you don't have Grit' deed. And you can pick TWO deeds to apply it to. Oh, you also get a Bonus Feat.


    Good Dips/Class Pairs
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    There are 4 types of Dips covered here.
    General: Classes that can generally help any Gunslinger.
    Wisdom: Gunslingers have good Wisdom, might as well make use of it for more than just Grit.
    Charisma: Mysterious Strangers only, same idea as Wisdom section.
    Other: Other options that don't have great stat synergy, but may be useful.

    General:

    Cavalier: The Luring Cavalier archetype lets you target Touch AC up to 2 range increments away at level 3.
    Fighter: Feats. You want them, it has them. Can take the 'Weapon Master' archetype and get Weapon Training at level 3 (+1 attack, +1 damage with chosen weapon). Also, Gun Tank Armor Training stacks with Fighter Armor Training (Note: 'Weapon Master' Fighter does NOT get Armor Training).

    Ranger: Trophy Hunter Archetype, at level 2 you get the Amateur Gunslinger feat (trade it in for the +2 Grit), and the use of any 1st level Gunslinger deed.
    "But I already have the first level deeds, I multi-classed, remember?"
    Yes, but there are Archetypes that trade away 1st level deeds and get NEW 1st level deeds. Very handy for a Mysterious Stranger to regain the use of Quick Clear.

    Rogue: Sneak Attack, Talents, and Evasion. Take the 'Sniper' archetype, and starting at level 3 your Sneak Attack Range is increased. And/Or take the 'Scout' archetype and starting at level 8 you can have guaranteed Sneak Attack damage (once per round, only if you move more than 10ft.).

    Wisdom:

    Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor: Spellcasting and Domains. A little Spellcasting can always come in handy, and you can pick helpful Domains. Travel is a good one for +10ft. movement, Protection is also nice for +1 all saves. There are plenty of decent options.

    Monk: Monk? Yes. Monk. Monk is a quick and dirty way to gain a decent 'Plan B' melee option without resorting to double weapons like the 'Pistol, Dagger'. There is actually a fair amount of synergy here, with 2 levels you gain 2 bonus feats, Evasion, Improved Unarmed damage, and Wis-to-AC (no armor).
    Suggest taking Combat Reflexes to make better use of your Dex. If you go to Monk 4 you gain a Ki Pool (based on Wis) that can be used for a variety of abilities. And there are plenty of Archetypes that can compliment a 'Gun-Fu' build.

    Charisma:

    Oracle/Sorcerer/Bard: Spellcasting. Similar to the Cleric/Druid option, pick up some useful spellcasting.

    Ninja: Similar to Rogue, but you gain a Cha-based Ki Pool instead of Evasion.

    (Anti)Paladin: Cha-to-Saves is the big draw here. Take the Holy Gun archetype, the free Ameteur Gunslinger feat is instantly converted to Extra Grit when you have levels of Gunslinger. And you lose Smite Evil for a Deed that gives Paladin Level + Cha to damage against Evil targets, AND it lets you bypass all DR on the target (evil target or not).

    Other:

    Wizard: Take the Spellslinger archetype. Go to town.

    Alchemist: At level 4 you can take the Explosive Missle discovery. This discovery lets you add your Bomb damage to an attack. Also has Extracts (spells). You can also use Discoveries to grow extra arms. 1 extra arm lets you wield 2 pistols while keeping a hand free for reloading.


    Prestige

    There are currently no Prestige classes that specifically benefit a Gunslinger/Firearm type class. Some options are the 'combining' prestige classes, like Eldritch Knight or Holy Vindicator (Full Bab + Casting). There are no great choices, but there are plenty of options that might suit your particular build.

    Psionic Multi/Prestige-Classes(3rd party)
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    Psychic Warrior: Basically a mix between Fighter and Cleric, you get Bonus Feats and a few Path abilities, with Wis-based Powers and 3/4 bab. Both the Assassin's Path and Weaponmaster's Path offer decent bonuses. While the Assassin Path has a better passive bonus, the Weaponmaster powers are better.

    Wilder: Similar to Psychic Warrior, but with Cha-based Powers and no Bonus Feats. Can also gain decent bonuses/abilities with the Surge powers.

    Prestige:
    Elocator: Some interesting movement abilities, and Spatial Awareness can give nice bonus to to-hit and damage on the first attack each round.

    Pyrokineticist: Easy entry (just need a Power Point reserve), grants a variety of Fire-based powers. Notably Fire Resist 10 at level 2, and +2d6 fire damage with a weapon at level 4.

    War Mind: Easy entry, d10hd, full Bab, has its own (limited) power progression. (recommend qualify with the Elan race to use the Power Point pool to fuel their Save boosting and damage reduction abilities)

    Last edited by grarrrg; 2012-01-30 at 11:17 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Fine by me and thanks a bunch. Still struggling monetarily in RL, so that kinda takes precedent at the moment. Especially on the multiclassing bit, as I'm not entirely familiar with all the APG classes, anything coming out of Ultimate Magic or keeping track of what Archetypes do what and/or are available. So getting any assistance on that front is well appreciated.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    You know, my DM mentioned the lack of prestige classes, and entertained the idea of a modified Arcane Archer to allow gun usage instead of bow.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Fine by me and thanks a bunch. Still struggling monetarily in RL, so that kinda takes precedent at the moment. Especially on the multiclassing bit, as I'm not entirely familiar with all the APG classes, anything coming out of Ultimate Magic or keeping track of what Archetypes do what and/or are available. So getting any assistance on that front is well appreciated.
    After all the digging around I did trying to optimize the Gundolon (and Algunist), I figured I had a good handle on things.
    Still probably missed something though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exelbirth View Post
    You know, my DM mentioned the lack of prestige classes, and entertained the idea of a modified Arcane Archer to allow gun usage instead of bow.
    Summoners have no Prestige options as well.
    The best option there is to homebrew something along the lines of "if you would gain '+1 level of arcane casting' you can instead have '+1 level for purposes of Eidolon stats/abilities/Evo. points'".

    Going strictly by (current) RAW, Gunslingers are boned.
    Going by 'reasonable interpretation', most things that work with a CROSSbow should also work with a Firearm.
    I specify crossbow, and not bows, because... well, lets do this:

    Firearm: Simple point and 'click' interface, easy to fire one-handed.
    Crossbow: Simple point and 'click' interface, easy to fire one-handed.
    Bow: Both arms must work together to aim and shoot, difficult, if not impossible, to use one-handed.

    I can see a re-fluffed Arcane Archer working with Firearms, but as-is it is VERY set on the flavor of bow/arrow.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-09-22 at 06:58 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Love the guide so far, any idea when its gonna be finished?
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Heart View Post
    Love the guide so far, any idea when its gonna be finished?
    As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm having financial turbulence at the current time that's taking precedence in my order of things that need my attention. I do intend to get back to and finish writing the handbook up when my affairs are in a better order but I'm not sure when that'll be. I may get some time this weekend to write up some more races and skills, though. Feats and traits are bloody huge, even if I'm only covering Core, APG and UC.

    I may put up the build section with the current submissions as well, with what graarg has put forth, but no promises on that. My week and worries are reaching a crescendo of chaos and I'll need a break this weekend for dealing with it, which writing for the guide may provide.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm having financial turbulence at the current time that's taking precedence in my order of things that need my attention. I do intend to get back to and finish writing the handbook up when my affairs are in a better order but I'm not sure when that'll be. I may get some time this weekend to write up some more races and skills, though. Feats and traits are bloody huge, even if I'm only covering Core, APG and UC.

    I may put up the build section with the current submissions as well, with what graarg has put forth, but no promises on that. My week and worries are reaching a crescendo of chaos and I'll need a break this weekend for dealing with it, which writing for the guide may provide.
    Oh, I am sorry, I only skimmed the topic before, I missed that. Good luck and no need to rush.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Heart View Post
    Oh, I am sorry, I only skimmed the topic before, I missed that. Good luck and no need to rush.
    Hey, no problem. You're here for the handbook, no one is obligated to go through all the discussion. I'll see what I can do with the time I have to spare so people have things to read, examine and discuss.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    ...build section with the current submissions as well, with what graarg has put forth...
    Who?

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Who?
    You and your a's and r's
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    You and your a's and r's
    There is only ONE "a".

    The r's I 'might' let slide from time to time,

    But there is ONLY ONE "a".
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-09-28 at 08:43 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    How are you getting your reload times down to free actions? With Rapid Reload one handed firearms are only a move action to reload.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Laniius View Post
    How are you getting your reload times down to free actions? With Rapid Reload one handed firearms are only a move action to reload.
    Catridges. They move the reload time down to free.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Goblins are gonna have special mention, in that their currently the only race that has a Favored Class option specifically for Gunslingers and it's actually a nice one.
    Where is this located? I've always had a soft spot for goblins, and the gunslinger looks interesting.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Catridges. They move the reload time down to free.
    OH! Found it. Thanks. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---...cal-cartridges for anyone who wants to know.

    Edit: When creating a cartridge using the gunsmithing feat, is it possible to add the various kinds of bullets to it, like a silver bullet or pitted bullet? Finally, is a gunslinger considered to know all of the deeds (aside from the ones that are replaced via archetypes) or do you have to pick?
    Last edited by Laniius; 2011-09-30 at 05:19 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Laniius View Post
    OH! Found it. Thanks. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---...cal-cartridges for anyone who wants to know.

    Edit: When creating a cartridge using the gunsmithing feat, is it possible to add the various kinds of bullets to it, like a silver bullet or pitted bullet? Finally, is a gunslinger considered to know all of the deeds (aside from the ones that are replaced via archetypes) or do you have to pick?
    As a Gunslinger, you know all Deeds at the appropriate level.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Laniius View Post
    Edit: When creating a cartridge using the gunsmithing feat, is it possible to add the various kinds of bullets to it, like a silver bullet or pitted bullet? Finally, is a gunslinger considered to know all of the deeds (aside from the ones that are replaced via archetypes) or do you have to pick?
    Cartridges as by RAW use standard bullets, though a reasonable DM should allow you to make special cartridges with special bullets, as there's nothing about bullets that should limit putting together cartridges like that.

    And yes, as Frosty said, a Gunslinger knows all Deeds that their class level allows, as noted in the class or the Archetype chosen. You can add new Deeds by taking the appropriate Grit feat whenever you qualify for them.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    @ Cieyrin: Fantastic guide!!!

    @ grarrrg (copied and pasted so I would not misspell it ): I'm not sure if you are going to expand to multiclass with respect to 3rd party. But if you consider psionics, there is a lot to be said for PsiWar+Gunslinger

    Extra feats + Psionic Shot + Powers that give you more damage + assasin's path (+2 to damage) + powers that let you scout and increase your damage + you offset the 3/4 BAB with only having to do ranged touch = Awesomeness

    EDIT: I'd say that 2-4 lvls of PsiWar can net you a lot of awesomeness if you are going primarily Gunslinger. I'm not sure what would be a good number of Gunslinger if you are going the other way around (1 or 4, I guess)
    Last edited by Drothmal; 2011-10-01 at 02:00 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Drothmal View Post
    expand to multiclass with respect to 3rd party. But if you consider psionics, there is a lot to be said for PsiWar+Gunslinger

    EDIT: I'd say that 2-4 lvls of PsiWar can net you a lot of awesomeness if you are going primarily Gunslinger. I'm not sure what would be a good number of Gunslinger if you are going the other way around (1 or 4, I guess)
    Well, since Cieyrin hasn't copy/pasted yet, I guess it's up to me to make the edits, I half ignored, half forgot about Psionics. (that and I've never really read up on Psionics) I'll have to do a quick review, see if any of the Prestige options seen worthwhile as well.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-10-01 at 04:24 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Interesting idea I thought of for ammo, and that's the addition of armor piercing rounds and hollow point bullets. Hollow point bullets do twice as much damage, but don't get the benefit of ignoring armor in the first range increment.

    AP rounds ignore armor to the max range increments of your gun, but deal half non-lethal damage, or simply half damage, whichever sounds more balanced. They also give you a chance to sunder armor, with a +1 per AP bullet that hit that armor previously.

    I think that those two types of ammo would add an extra level of tactical thinking for parties, like the gunslinger takes out the armor of the enemy the main melee guy's going toe to toe with, or uses hollow point to dispatch the caster quickly, minimizing mass damage to your team.

    Just something I think would be fun, probably best restricted to the more advanced tech eras.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Exelbirth View Post
    ...Hollow point bullets do twice as much damage, but don't get the benefit of ignoring armor in the first range increment....
    AP rounds ignore armor to the max range increments of your gun, but deal half non-lethal damage, or simply half damage, whichever sounds more balanced. They also give you a chance to sunder armor, with a +1 per AP bullet that hit that armor previously.
    ...Just something I think would be fun, probably best restricted to the more advanced tech eras.
    Agreed on leaving to advanced eras, as it's too easy to switch ammo on the fly.
    Otherwise you'd start with all AP rounds loaded until the armor was broken, then start loading Hollow Points.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2011-10-02 at 10:47 AM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Been flipping through the Ultimate Magic book and came across an entry I had skipped over before that lets you augment constructs with weapons, extra hd, etc. Also, the ability to create a construct that one can wear as armor, gaining significant benefits. While it's mostly melee focused, as constructs usually lack a dexterity, I got to thinking how interesting it'd be to craft an iron golem with built in guns that one could wear. Basically power armor. The benefits would be you'd be immune to most spells, unable to be hit until the golem is destroyed (which would be a challenge itself with the DR15/Adamantine), and fire heals the golem. Downsides are you move slower, less nimble, have to be able to cast high level spells to create the golem.

    I'm thinking that it'd actually work decently with the guntank archetype.

    Edit: Looking more into golems, I found the Mithral golem has a ridiculously high dexterity, and making one to your size gives it a total dexterity of 28. I believe you use the physical scores of a golem when using one as armor, it's not entirely clear on how that all works, but if i'm right, you get a dex bonus of +9 instead of your normal dexterity. It also gets to make an extra move action each round, useful when you gotta reload.
    Last edited by Exelbirth; 2011-10-03 at 02:00 AM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Those things are really overpriced though...
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Those things are really overpriced though...
    They are a little bit, but making a new character at certain levels can easily afford a lot of them. A 16th level character could easily make an iron golem with the construct armor enhancement, and still have plenty of gold left over for magic gear and basic items.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    *more submission*

    Archetypes

    Gun Tank
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    A Gun Tank is pretty much what it sounds like. You lose the more 'dexterity' flavored features in exchange for 'toughness' flavored ones.

    Gain: Medium/Heavy Armor prof, and Tower Shield prof.

    Lose: Gunslinger's Dodge Deed
    Gain: Spend Grit for chance to ignore Critical/Sneak Attack damage (i.e. Fortification)

    Lose: Nimble
    Gain: Deflection bonus to AC (vs. 'mundane', not magical)

    Lose: Bonus Feats
    Gain: Armor Training (per Fighter), stacks with Fighter levels

    Lose: Evasive Deed
    Gain: A Fort-based version of Evasion, and +2 save vs. Fear/Mind


    Mysterious Stranger
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    To put it simply, this takes away WIS and replaces it with CHA for all features.

    Change: Grit pool is based on CHA modifier, not on WIS

    (following are grouped as the bonuses/levels have mostly been shuffled around)
    Lose: Quick Clear Deed & Gun Training
    Gain: Focused Aim Deed & Stranger's Fortune. You get 'stat' to damage earlier, but it costs Grit now. And instead of removing Broken from misfires, you can outright ignore CHA-mod misfires per day.

    Lose: Nimble
    Gain: Bonus to Will saves (useful since you no longer have good WIS)

    Gain: If you miss, you can spend Grit to do half-damage anyway.


    Mustket Master
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    A Gunslinger with a focus on 2-handed firearms.

    Lose: Only has proficiency with 2-handed firearms, must choose a Musket as starting weapon.
    Gain: Rapid Reload (Muskets)

    Lose: Gunslinger's Dodge Deed
    Gain: Spend a Move action to increase Range Increment of 2-hand firearm.

    Lose: Utility Shot Deed
    Gain: Treat 2-handed firearms as 1-handed for purposes of reloading.

    Change: Gun Training only applies to 2-handed firearms. Gain an increase in damage instead of additional firearm types. Ignore ALL misfires at level 13.


    Pistolero
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    A Gunslinger focused on 1-handed firearms.

    Change: Only has proficiency with 1-handed firearms, must choose a Pistol as starting weapon.

    Lose: Startling Shot Deed
    Change: Deadeye Deed is gained at level 7 instead of level 1.
    Gain: Spend Grit to gain Precision damage (d6's) on attack, does half the extra damage if the attack misses.

    Lose: Menacing Shot Deed
    Gain: If you hit a target with 2 or more firearm attacks, you can spend a Grit to make them Prone.

    Change: Gun Training only applies to 1-handed firearms. Gain an increase in damage instead of additional firearm types. Ignore ALL misfires at level 13.
    *Note: As written Pistol Training does NOT replace Gun Training. Technically, by current RAW, Pistolero's get both. This will almost certainly be corrected by errata.*


    Archetypes can be combined, provided that the same feature is not traded away multiple times. This leaves the only allowable combination as Gun Tank + Pistolero (and if going by RAW Mysterious Stranger + Pistolero).

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    DeMouse's Avatar

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    I had a good idea for a build using levels in Duelist untill I noticed the clarification on the PFSRD saying it needed to be a melee weapon.
    Only those who are confused truly understand.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Cieyrin's Avatar

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by DeMouse View Post
    I had a good idea for a build using levels in Duelist untill I noticed the clarification on the PFSRD saying it needed to be a melee weapon.
    There are combo melee-pistols, though I'm not sure how useful they really are...
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    Damn you Cieyrin! Cieyrin!!!!!read as Khaaaaan!

    My badges! :D
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Actually, I've got a pretty cool trick using Duelist and the Sword and Pistol style.

    Since the Duelists Canny Defense works as long as you don't have a shield in your other hand, you can wield both a pistol and a rapier without losing it. The Precise Strike ability says you can make no attacks with an off-hand weapon or you lose the ability, however, the Parry ability allows you to trade an attack action for a parry. So essentially, you make a full attack with your rapier, and deflect an enemies attack by shooting his blade aside.
    Prestige Bard, updated for Pathfinder.

    Revamped Spell Resistance system, for use with Spell Points/Psionics.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Something worth noting when taking a Gunslinger Archetype (especially Mysterious Stranger).
    Trophy Hunter Ranger, at level 2 gains "the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and can use any 1st-level Gunslinger deed".
    Now, granted, the intent is to take Trophy Ranger INSTEAD of Gunsliner. But I see a quick 2-level-dip way for a Mysterious Stranger to regain the use of Quick Clear (and pick up some Extra Grit on the side).

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