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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    MUHUHUHAHAHAHAHAAH!!

    I am en evil genius!!

    I have figured out a way to Two-Weapon-Fight/Reload WITHOUT resorting to Spells/Extra Arms.

    More elaboration will be added to my mini-reload guide in this thread, but here's the important bits:
    Free Actions can be taken during a Full-Round Action
    and:
    I guess I'll wait in rapt attention, o' master of guns akimbo.

    I should be getting into feats tomorrow, methinks, and doing it in parts, divided by feat type so people have an idea of what they can grab up with Gunslinger bonus feats.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I guess I'll wait in rapt attention, o' master of guns akimbo.
    It is done.
    Linky

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    It is done.
    Linky
    Hmm, I think a wand of Extended Reloading Hands would help quite a bit, since each charge lasts a minute a gun. Definitely high on a Mysterious Stranger's list of priorities, methinks.

    Also, don't forget about Lightning Reload for loading one of your guns with whatever round you need, not just cartridges. I need to change Lightning Reload's grade b/c of that fact, since, as nice as paper cartridges are, having a load of specialized bullets (+1 holy dragonbane for shooting that dragon out of the sky, for example ) can be a nice ace up your sleeve without being forced into loading a pepperbox full of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook


    I stopped being lazy and decided to copy and paste my build over. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out any fancy names for it or somesuch. Currently, this build is still missing two feats and two talents.

    Race: Halfling
    - Swift as Shadows
    - Underfoot
    Ability Scores:
    Str: 10 -> 8
    Dex: 14 -> 16
    Con: 14
    Int: 10
    Wis: 10
    Cha: 16 -> 18

    School's in session!

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    I'm in the process of 2 new builds to submit.
    One is a Gunslinger/Alchemist/Inquisitor
    The other is a Gun-Fu build, relying mainly on Gunslinger and Monk.


    The Alquisinger (need a useable name)
    Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 3/Inquisitor 12

    Archetypes are chosen more on what we DON'T need from our classes:

    Musket Master, yes, Musket Master. You'll see... you'll see...

    Vivisectionist, we don't plan on using Bombs, and only need 11 Int for Extracts anyway.

    Spellbreaker, Teamwork Feats aren't the best for Ranged attacks, and the Save boosts are nice.
    Black Powder Inquisition, we regain the use of all Firearms, and any caster we hit gets a penalty on Concentration checks (although most any Inquisition/Domain will do)

    Gunslinger 5, gives Rapid Reload as a bonus feat, lets us Reload Muskets faster, and Dex-to-damage with Muskets.
    Alchemist 3, 2d6 Sneak Attack, optional +Dex/-Wis Mutagen the Discovery will be Vestigial Arm (and we'll grab the Extra Discovery Feat for the 2nd extra Arm)
    Inquisitor 12, the main draws here are Greater Bane for +2 to-hit and +4d6 damage when we want it. We get 2 Judgements at a time, we will be using the +5 damage option the most, the other depends on the situation (Fast Healing 5, +3 all Saves, [choose an energy] Resist 10, and/or Bypass Damage Reduction). We also get 4th level Divine spells, and Stalwart (Evasion for Fort/Will)

    Race is currently up for grabs (will finalize once the build is farther along)
    Human, +2 any, Bonus feat
    Half-Elf, +2 any, 2 favored classes
    Drow Noble (yeah right...only if we volunteer to be our DM's Slave for 3 months....)
    Tengu/Udine for a Medium race with +Dex/+Wis

    Basic strategy:
    Dual Wielding Muskets, HOO-RAH!
    Stacking as much bonus damage as possible (Sneak Attack/Bane/Judgement/Dexterity)
    We also wind up with a lot more Skill points than a typical Gunslinger, and 4th level Divine spells. I'm sure I can think up something to do with them...



    Gun-Fu
    Gunslinger ?/Monk ?

    Gunslinger will be either Pistolero or Musket Master
    Monk will be 'normal', or probably Zen Archer (for the Ranged bonus feat list, and free Point-Blank Master at level 3)
    The idea with taking Monk is that we get Wis-to-AC (Touch AC at that), and get decent Unarmed damage, combined with taking Combat Reflexes, to be a passable Melee threat as well.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Azazer View Post
    Grit Rogue Build
    The things that pop out to me is that you need the Firearms Training talent before Grit talent, regardless of whether you have proficiency or not. It can be useful if you go Pistolero or Musket Master to get full proficiency, though. Extra Rogue Talent picked up at the same level will zoom you straight there. Also, you have a free deed from Amateur Gunslinger, which I'd suggest you choose Quick Clear or Up Close and Deadly.

    As for your extra talents and feats, since you're going Deft Shootist anyways, I'd suggest pursuing Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes and Precise Shot, the last since you're going to be dealing with that melee penalty quite a bit. Combat Trick and shoving around your Fighter levels can help you get there, as well as potentially replacing Quick Draw, as TWF makes it so you can draw both guns as one move action or as part of a move. The Snap Shot talent can also be very beneficial to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Gun-Fu
    Gunslinger ?/Monk ?

    Gunslinger will be either Pistolero or Musket Master
    Monk will be 'normal', or probably Zen Archer (for the Ranged bonus feat list, and free Point-Blank Master at level 3)
    The idea with taking Monk is that we get Wis-to-AC (Touch AC at that), and get decent Unarmed damage, combined with taking Combat Reflexes, to be a passable Melee threat as well.
    Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes are definite wants for a Gun/Monk. Also, call the build John Preston.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes are definite wants for a Gun/Monk. Also, call the build John Preston.
    No can do.

    Spike Spiegel is already confirmed.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    No can do.

    Spike Spiegel is already confirmed.
    You need to be Flowing Monk, then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Announcement!
    The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.

    Any plans?

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    The things that pop out to me is that you need the Firearms Training talent before Grit talent, regardless of whether you have proficiency or not. It can be useful if you go Pistolero or Musket Master to get full proficiency, though. Extra Rogue Talent picked up at the same level will zoom you straight there. Also, you have a free deed from Amateur Gunslinger, which I'd suggest you choose Quick Clear or Up Close and Deadly.

    I had originally thought so as well, but the people on the Paizo forum said that taking Firearms Training isn't necessary to qualify for the Grit Talent in this particular instance (hence why I didn't have it listed). I could try posing the question again on their forum but I'm not sure if I'll get more than a single reply.


    I can't remember why I had Quick Draw though...this was a Weapon Cords build after all...
    School's in session!

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    You need to be Flowing Monk, then.
    (Mostly) Not a problem.
    The main things I want from Monk are:
    Unarmed Damage (and DOESN'T lose Still Mind if I want Monastic Training)
    AC bonus
    Evasion
    Bonus Feats

    Flowing has everything I want, with the only exception that it loses its 2nd feat.

    That, and none of the Archetypes are necessarily better (other than the feat).


    Fun Fact: The feat Monastic Training is best taken with EXACTLY 4 levels of Monk.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    What are your suggestions for a Gunslinger looking to play up the tinkerer/inventor aspect of being one of the heralds of firearms? I was planning on taking Master Craftsman and the two feats it allows to allow my Pistolero Tank engineer to improve his weapons...

    1. Rapid reload
    H1. Two-Weapon Fighting
    3. ???
    G4. ???
    5. Master Craftsman
    7. Craft arms/Armor
    G8. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    9. Craft Wonderous Item

    But I'm seeing both ITWF and Craft magic Arms/Armor arriving two levels late... Should I be worried?
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Any plans?
    Like many plans of mice and men, some are doomed to fail. I'll see what I can get done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azazer View Post

    I had originally thought so as well, but the people on the Paizo forum said that taking Firearms Training isn't necessary to qualify for the Grit Talent in this particular instance (hence why I didn't have it listed). I could try posing the question again on their forum but I'm not sure if I'll get more than a single reply.
    I'd love to see it otherwise as well, I'm just not seeing the rules support that. It's a reasonable houserule, though, definitely.


    I can't remember why I had Quick Draw though...this was a Weapon Cords build after all...
    It's definitely a flavorful feat, though it'd work better if you got to Gunslinger Initiative, which specifically boosts Quick Draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crasical View Post
    What are your suggestions for a Gunslinger looking to play up the tinkerer/inventor aspect of being one of the heralds of firearms? I was planning on taking Master Craftsman and the two feats it allows to allow my Pistolero Tank engineer to improve his weapons...

    1. Rapid reload
    H1. Two-Weapon Fighting
    3. ???
    G4. ???
    5. Master Craftsman
    7. Craft arms/Armor
    G8. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    9. Craft Wonderous Item

    But I'm seeing both ITWF and Craft magic Arms/Armor arriving two levels late... Should I be worried?
    A focus in craft skills and maxing Knowledge(Engineering) would definitely help with that. You may also want to pursue Master Alchemist.

    Craft Magic Arms & Armor showing up later is typical for going the Master Craftsman route, so I wouldn't worry about that. I do wonder about your plans to TWF as a Pistolero Tank, as it takes a bit of trickery to work out effectively. On the other hand, since you're going crafting focused, Improved TWF being a bit behind and getting it at the same time as rogues isn't breaking the bank by any means.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2012-03-07 at 10:21 AM.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Here's my rough outline for the Gun-Fu/Spike build. It is currently leaning towards "Flavor", but I can add a section at the end for "more optimal choices".

    Looking for Feedback/ideas/oversights

    Human (cause Spike is a human, duh)
    End levels will be Gunslinger (Musket Master) 13/Monk (Flowing) 4/ undecided 3 (more Gun? more Monk? other?)
    Yes, I know Spike used a Pistol, not a Rifle, but we are pretty tight on Feats, and Musket Master gets Rapid Reload as a Bonus.

    Levels taken as:
    Gunslinger 1, for the obvious reasons
    Monk 2, for the general Monk-goodness
    Gunslinger +4, Dex to Damage
    Monk +1 (or +2) for Still mind (for Monastic Training), may go ahead and grab Monk 4 so we can get our Ki Pool started.
    Gunslinger +8, Bleeding Wound and qualify for Signature Deed at 11, bonus feat at 12, and Immune all Misfires at 13
    (Monk +1 if we stopped at level 3 before)

    Approx Stats, asssuming 15 point buy
    Str 10 (using Weapon Finesse on our unarmed strikes, while we don't care about increasing damage, we do not want a penalty either)
    Dex 22 (16 base, +2 Human, +4 levels)
    Con 12 (planning on being 'near' melee)
    Int 8 (the Human Skill bonus cancels out the penalty)
    Wis 14
    Cha 10

    Feats (in approx. order)
    We have 2 feat-chains going on
    Dodge>Mobility>Deft Shootist (the only feat that lets you RELOAD without provoking)
    and Point-Blank>Weapon Focus>Rapid Shot>Snap Shot

    1 Dodge
    1 Mobility (human)
    1 Rapid Reload (gunslinger)
    2 Weapon Finesse (monk)
    3 Deft Shootist Deed
    5 Point-Blank Shot
    6 Weapon Focus (gunslinger)
    7 Rapid Shot
    9 Snap Shot
    11 Combat Reflexes
    12 Improved Critical (gunslinger)
    13 Improved Snap Shot
    15 Signature Deed > Bleeding Wound
    16 Greater Snap Shot (gunslinger)
    17 ??
    What else should be here?

    Class choices to fill the last 3 levels>
    Fighter for the Feats, possibly taken earlier in the build, but then we further delay Bleeding Wound deed....
    More Gunslinger, there are some nice Deeds at 15 we can snag, as well as the Bonus feat at 16
    More Monk, a few Passive bonuses can be had here, nothing major.
    Other??
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2012-03-08 at 03:52 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    I don't think Spike was particularly dumb or crude, as he could talk his way out of situations at least somewhat, making me think he had decent social skills, like Bluff and Sense Motive. Probably not the sharpest tool on the Bebop but definitely not brain dead. I'd leave his Int and Cha at 10. He's definitely Dex and Wis focused but he doesn't have any significant weaknesses, either.

    I'd raise Wis to get more out of Flowing Dodge and to his AC in general. I'd also get Monk up to 5 for Elusive target.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I don't think Spike was particularly dumb or crude, as he could talk his way out of situations at least somewhat, making me think he had decent social skills, like Bluff and Sense Motive. Probably not the sharpest tool on the Bebop but definitely not brain dead. I'd leave his Int and Cha at 10. He's definitely Dex and Wis focused but he doesn't have any significant weaknesses, either.

    I'd raise Wis to get more out of Flowing Dodge and to his AC in general. I'd also get Monk up to 5 for Elusive target.
    For the stats, some of the main problems are that I want to do it as a "low-ball" 15 point-buy, while still being an effective build, while still yet representing the character.
    Not all 3 are going to happen.

    Ideally Spike would probably be closer to
    Str 12 (slightly above average, his fighting style is more Dex based)
    Dex 20+ (as high as possible, AC/dodging, Ranged weapons, etc...)
    Con 18 (dude can take a serious beating)
    Int 10 (much more "street smart" than "book smart")
    Wis 16 (then again, I think a 16 is still pushing it...)
    Cha 12 (he thinks he's all that and a bag of chips, but...)

    I guess a more realistic "budget" Spike would be closer to
    Str 10
    Dex 16 (18 after racials, can't afford to go higher)
    Con 12 (still a boost, but less so)
    Int 8 (with the Human Skill bonus he breaks even Skill-wise)
    Wis 14
    Cha 10


    What about the Feats?
    The problem is that there is a sizable bottle-neck right around level 8-to-10.
    It's when Deft Shootist comes online, the ideal point to take Improved Critical, and the absolute earliest we can get Snap Shot online.
    I feel Deft Shootist has priority, but is there something else I can move around?
    Snap Shot is also being quite the pain with, essentially, FOUR required feats (Point-Blank, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, and Combat Reflexes).
    I'm thinking I'm going to have to add 2 levels of Fighter just after Gunslinger 5 just for the feats (Mobile Fighter and Tactician are the current front-runners).

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    After reading through this handbook, I decided to make a halfling double-barreled pistol gunslinger as my back-up character. My only question is, I hear a lot of people saying that using cartridges to load reduced the loading time. I looked everywhere I could think of on the srd, and the only reference I could find about that was in the lightning reload deed - and in that case it doesn't stack with rapid reload anyway, and is only one load per round.

    If somebody could link me to the right spot that says that cartridges will reduce the loading time from standard to move for a pistol, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

    Edit: nvm, found it. herpaderp.
    Last edited by rezplz; 2012-03-08 at 06:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook


    For you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRD
    Alchemical Cartridges: An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.

    Dragon's Breath Cartridge: This cartridge contains alchemical compounds that, when fired, produce a cone of fire instead of the normal attack of a one-handed or two-handed firearm with the scatter weapon quality. The nonmagical flame deals 2d6 points of fire damage to all targets within the cone of the scatter firearm (DC 15 Reflex save for half). These cartridges cannot be used in firearms that don't have the scatter weapon quality. Because this ammunition forces a saving throw instead of making an attack roll, the misfire rules are slightly different. If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm misfires.

    Entangling Shot Cartridge: This mix of black powder and an alchemically treated resin strong enough to survive the shot can only be loaded into a blunderbuss, a dragon pistol, or other scatter weapon. It deals half damage to those hit by a cone attack made with this weapon, but any creature hit by the shot must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex saving throw or become entangled for 2d4 rounds. An entangling shot cartridge increases the firearm's misfire value by 2.

    Flare Cartridge: When a flare cartridge hits its target, it only deals half damage, but the creature struck is blinded for 1 round (Fort DC 15 reduces this to dazzled), and creatures within a 20-foot burst are dazzled for 1 round (Fort DC 15 negates the effect). Flare cartridges are also useful for sending up signal flares. Firing a flare cartridge increases the firearm's misfire value by 2 unless it is fired from a blunderbuss or a dragon pistol, in which case doing so only increases the firearm's misfire value by 1. Flares can only be used to attack single creatures; they do not work as a shot for a cone scatter attack.

    Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.

    Salt Shot Cartridge: This mix of black powder and rock salt can only be loaded into a blunderbuss, a dragon pistol, or other scatter weapon. It deals nonlethal instead of lethal damage, and increases the misfire value by 1. You can only use it with a scatter weapon's cone attack.
    Last edited by Baka Nikujaga; 2012-03-08 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Formatting
    School's in session!

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    That's even better than the thing I found a minute ago... after half an hour of looking haha. Thanks. I'm excited to wreck faces and show my DM what a free-action loading, double-barreled DEX/CHA gunslinger can do. : D

    Thinking of taking rapid reload so at 3rd level, I can get 3 attacks, using both barrels with each shot, for 6 attacks all with CHA to damage. With touch attacks the horrid (-6) penalties shouldn't matter too much, right?

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook


    It depends on how high your bonus to hit is...and if you trust a lower number.
    School's in session!

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by rezplz View Post
    That's even better than the thing I found a minute ago... after half an hour of looking haha. Thanks. I'm excited to wreck faces and show my DM what a free-action loading, double-barreled DEX/CHA gunslinger can do. : D

    Thinking of taking rapid reload so at 3rd level, I can get 3 attacks, using both barrels with each shot, for 6 attacks all with CHA to damage. With touch attacks the horrid (-6) penalties shouldn't matter too much, right?
    Two things:
    1) Shooting into combat and if people get in the way of your target netting you an effective -8 to hit is still very much a problem, so the -6 on top of that will almost certainly cause a flurry of misses.
    2) I think you're overlooking that you need a free hand to reload your guns, which is the main obstacles to Guns Akimbo type builds. That would somewhat preclude getting 6 shots a round at level 3, let alone being able to afford a pair of double-barreled pistols by then. Also the fact that having double barrels doesn't mean you have the attacks to use them all. If you try to shoot both as one attack, you have an extra -4 penalty to your attacks. Not to mention that Rapid Shot only gives you one extra shot, not one extra per weapon.

    I'm not saying Rapid Shot isn't a bad idea, it's just that you'll have adequate numbers just dual-wielding and troubles keeping up with the reloading without having to worry about Rapid Shot on top of it. It works out nicely for single firearm wielders, though. I also think that pistols are weighed equivalently to light crossbows that you could get away with calling them light weapons for TWFing purposes. It doesn't say anywhere what they're treated as but it's what makes the most sense to me.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    2) I think you're overlooking that you need a free hand to reload your guns, which is the main obstacles to Guns Akimbo type builds. That would somewhat preclude getting 6 shots a round at level 3,....
    Me thinks he plans to have 1, Double-Barreled Gun, and just give them both barrels every 'shot'.
    So there should be no reloading problems, and no Two-Weapon penalties.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Me thinks he plans to have 1, Double-Barreled Gun, and just give them both barrels every 'shot'.
    So there should be no reloading problems, and no Two-Weapon penalties.
    D'oh! Misread. Well, that works, then. I guess that explains where the -6 penalty is coming from, -4 from shooting both barrels and -2 from Rapid Shot, though that still 4 attacks, not 6, so you only pull the trigger twice.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2012-03-09 at 10:29 AM.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    What are the final thoughts on pistols vs muskets?

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Question for those who have actually played as a Gunslinger: How balanced is the Grit mechanic? Do you ever run out of Grit points? Does it cause any book keeping hassles?

    Just reading the rules, it seems like Grit can be managed in such a way (ie, invest in the Feat/item tax to increase your Grit point total, get a lot of attacks, invest some resources in improving your chances of crit, pick off weaker enemies first, and whenever you're clearly winning combat "bank" Grit points instead of spending them) that you basically have a constant stream of Grit points when you need them. And if that's the case, why not just make Deeds at-will abilities?


    Note to Cieyrin: There's no longer a need to refer to the "playtest" version of the Gunslinger in your Handbook posts, and doing so is a bit confusing to me, since I never read the playtest version and never will. Instead, it would be more helpful to simply summarize what each ability does, and why you think it's good or bad. Everything about the Gunslinger (including the archetypes, feats, etc) is open public content and is up on the Paizo SRD (although it's poorly organized by publication, instead of by class/subject).

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by FlayerIV View Post
    What are the final thoughts on pistols vs muskets?
    Average 2 damage difference for a step slower reload that kinda requires Musket Master at higher levels to keep up with pistols. On the other hand, it has twice the range of pistols, so you don't have to maneuver quite so much and keep full attacking, so it's a matter of personal taste. Though, the double-barreled musket being unusable (10' range increment? why would Paizo do that?!? the combo weapon-muskets don't lose that much range! ) is kind of a mark against it, though, when the UC errata finally rolls out, that should be getting fixed (hopefully).

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Question for those who have actually played as a Gunslinger: How balanced is the Grit mechanic? Do you ever run out of Grit points? Does it cause any book keeping hassles?
    I've been playing a PFS core Gunslinger from 1st to 6th with a pistol and dragon pistol and I can say that, given I only have a Wis of 14, I have to carefully monitor my Grit use. Not to mention that I generally have to keep a point of grit around to keep Quick Clear viable, as I roll a lot of 1s and 2s.

    Given that I only have 2 points of Grit (though I'll be investing in a Lucky Pistol and a +Wis Headband shortly), I don't have much trouble keeping track of how much Grit I have. If it gets to be an issue, I can just use a die counter to keep track but it's about as much trouble as a Monk's Ki pool to keep track of (i.e. Not a problem).

    Just reading the rules, it seems like Grit can be managed in such a way (ie, invest in the Feat/item tax to increase your Grit point total, get a lot of attacks, invest some resources in improving your chances of crit, pick off weaker enemies first, and whenever you're clearly winning combat "bank" Grit points instead of spending them) that you basically have a constant stream of Grit points when you need them. And if that's the case, why not just make Deeds at-will abilities?
    It's more an issue for the archetypes (Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger) but I think you could equate deeds to Ki Powers in terms of effectiveness. Some are more effective than others but they need a cost of some kind, whether that's having certain conditions in effect or using a limited resource. Compare Sneak Attack to Up Close and Deadly, they both provide precision damage but UC&D just needs to spend grit to go off, Sneak Attack needs the target to be flat-footed, flanked or generally denied their Dex. You have to spend that Grit for each attack, as well. On top of the damage already done by bullets and ease of hitting touch AC, it may be a touch overwhelming. But, the handbook is for the RAW Gunslinger, not homebrew fixes to rebalance it as a Martial Warlock (which could be really cool, actually...), which is beyond the scope of the handbook.

    Note to Cieyrin: There's no longer a need to refer to the "playtest" version of the Gunslinger in your Handbook posts, and doing so is a bit confusing to me, since I never read the playtest version and never will. Instead, it would be more helpful to simply summarize what each ability does, and why you think it's good or bad. Everything about the Gunslinger (including the archetypes, feats, etc) is open public content and is up on the Paizo SRD (although it's poorly organized by publication, instead of by class/subject).
    I'll take it into consideration, though I'd like to attempt to finish the handbook before revising existing material. I just got a new laptop, so I'm in the process of transferring data over to it but, given it seems less temperamental than the Chromebook I was using in respect to handling art assets and having multiple tabs/windows open at the same time, it may speed up getting the Handbook done sooner than later.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I've been playing a PFS core Gunslinger from 1st to 6th with a pistol and dragon pistol and I can say that, given I only have a Wis of 14, I have to carefully monitor my Grit use.
    Well, that definitely makes sense for a low level character with mediocre Wisdom. I wonder how it would play at higher levels, with high Wis.

    It's annoying/MAD that the Gunslinger's maximum Grit, Menacing Shot, and Stunning Shot are based off of Wis (or Cha), but that your ranged To-Hit, Gun Training, Bleeding Wound, and Death's Shot are based on Dex. Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Well, that definitely makes sense for a low level character with mediocre Wisdom. I wonder how it would play at higher levels, with high Wis.

    It's annoying/MAD that the Gunslinger's maximum Grit, Menacing Shot, and Stunning Shot are based off of Wis (or Cha), but that your ranged To-Hit, Gun Training, Bleeding Wound, and Death's Shot are based on Dex. Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.
    Given that Menacing Shot and Stunning Shot are high level Deeds (15th & 19th, respectively), anyways, you definitely should have the money to spring onto a Headband of Inspired Wisdom or a Tome of Understanding by then to make them useful. For the majority of your career, it's just the stat in control of the size of your Grit pool. It's definitely important but, if you can reliably kill worthy enemies, you can probably get away with a Wis of 14-16 and regenerating it as you go. This is especially true for Pistoleros and Mysterious Strangers, since that spike damage should pay back for itself if you plan your attacks well.

    This is also why I emphasize critting, as that x4 Crit multiplier, with adequate damage boosters, will likely also kill a target, so you regenerate 2 Grit for that one attack, which is a significant chunk of your pool.

    If it's really a bother, Zen Archery would be permissable for a 3.P game, as there isn't an equivalent outside the monk archetype, which isn't compatible with firearms unfortunately, though that doesn't alleviate meeting Dex requirements on archery feats, like Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. I'm writing the guide from a pure PF perspective, though, so it's not really an option. It could be faked if a kind DM allowed Guided to apply to ranged weapons or if there was a deity with firearms as a favored weapon to use through Guided Hand, though that would require multiclassing into Cleric or Paladin.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Hedge Magican is actually a useful trait if you use Master Craftsman to enter CMA&A/CWI.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.
    Even if you could get Wis-To-Hit, you'd still want a decent Dex score to qualify for feats.
    Although, if you can get your DM to rule that Zen Archer Monk can use Wis-To-Hit with Firearms, then you could get away with as low as 13 Dex, taking all the High Dex Req feats with the Monk's Bonus feats.


    Also, Cieyrin, you may want to mention (probably in the Stats section) that a Gunslinger with 7 (or less) Wis still has the same size Grit pool as a 'Slinger with 13 Dex.
    And that a 'Slinger with low Wis and the Extra Grit Feat has as much Grit as a 'Slinger with 16 Dex. So a Low(er)-Wis build is an option.
    (replace Cha for Wis for Mysterious Stranger of course)


    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Hedge Magican is actually a useful trait if you use Master Craftsman to enter CMA&A/CWI.
    If you do plan on going a more crafty route, I highly recommend getting your Caster levels from Wizard (Spellslinger 'natch), and grabbing the Arcane Builder discovery to speed things up.

    As written it's unclear whether it takes 75% or 80% of the normal time.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2012-03-13 at 06:00 PM.

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