Can we just do another music thread?

[Moff Chumley]

Tentatively speaking, yes.

If anyone's got a spare fifteen minutes and wants to put together their own, here's the link. I like charts.

[dehro]

I'm not sure if your list makes me feel out of touch, out of date, seriously uncool or what else..because I know or have heard of... about 5-6 people/bands from your list

anyway, here is mine, which is by no means complete and mostly just a sum of what I'm listening to..this month.. I do blame the random button on my computer for some of these choices.

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[Feytalist]

I, too, like charts.

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Warning: high concentration of metal.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I had this lying around, might as well put it here. Not completely up to date and a few glaring oversights, but it's pretty good I think.

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You like The Feelies and Laurel Halo? Can we be friends?

[dehro]

dug up this little gem
because if putin plays the accordion, you know it's instant awesome

[ThiagoMartell]

Today I listened to lots and lots of Jim's Big Ego, Holstein and Tipo Uísque.

[Moff Chumley]

You like The Feelies and Laurel Halo? Can we be friends?

Wait, you like The Feelies but think post-punk is the same thing as new wave? Explain that to me.

[Faulty]

My shot at the chart:

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It's missing loads of things I consider essential... it's a bit of a myopic exercise. Still, kinda fun.

[Raistlin1040]

HOw does one even get that chart? I have tried to find the template for it somewhere, but have been unsuccessful (admittedly, I did not try particularly hard).

[Feytalist]

HOw does one even get that chart? I have tried to find the template for it somewhere, but have been unsuccessful (admittedly, I did not try particularly hard).

The link's, like, right at the top of this page.

If anyone's got a spare fifteen minutes and wants to put together their own, here's the link. I like charts.

[Raistlin1040]

Huh. I just saw it all over facebook and /mu/. Should have realized it would have probably been posted here.

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Word up.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Wait, you like The Feelies but think post-punk is the same thing as new wave? Explain that to me.

Because it is! It's just absurd. Imagine if every other genre had a different, separate name for the more "dark, progressive, experimental" third of it. That's just the dumbest thing I ever heard.

[Feytalist]

Because it is! It's just absurd. Imagine if every other genre had a different, separate name for the more "dark, progressive, experimental" third of it. That's just the dumbest thing I ever heard.

New wave has exactly that. It's called darkwave.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

New wave has exactly that. It's called darkwave.

Darkwave is indeed a new wave subgenre. It's also a post-punk subgenre. You just proved my point.

[dehro]

you are all mistaken

there are only 2 genres of music:
classical, folk/pop.
every further classification is just a case of "let's have a lot of different categories, so everybody can be a winner" like they do with track and field and swimming...in other words, frippery


...no, I don't really think it's quite that simple..but the over-classification that comes with certain genres is often rather pointless.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

...no, I don't really think it's quite that simple..but the over-classification that comes with certain genres is often rather pointless.

I agree to an extent. I'm not entirely objective about this, though. I love categorizing and filing and listing so this is great for me. Sometimes it gets absurd (blackgaze, really?) but for the most part I'm cool with it. Darkwave, for instance, deserves to exist.

[Radar]

History time!
Or what I stumbled upon by semi-blindly cruising around YouTube:

Yello - this tune was widely used whenever motor sports were presented in TV and this one is 80's at it's most bizzare. What's more, they are still active and quite diverse (it's not like they didn't jump between genres before).

Pentangle - they sound a bit like a mix of Clannad and Moody Blues. Passionate yet delicate: No Love Is Sorrow, House Carpenter, Hunting Song.

Możdżer, Danielsson and Fresco - fantastic collaboration. I'm not even sure, what kind of music it is (jazz?), but it's worth listening to: Incognitor, Asta, The Time Sortorello.

[Kindablue]

Folk music—academically defined as music having particular local character and exclusive local interest—was systematically assimilated into popular music with the invention of the radio, and doesn't really exist anymore. Maybe that's just an old definition, though, with an old concept of location. I'm sure everyone here can name at least a handful of musicians who are only popular on the Internet and whose style is distinctly that of the Internet; are they folk musicians?

And I'll check those out, Radar! I think I usually like your recommendations.

ETA: I'm studying this Chopin piece and I ran into what might be my new favorite word. Smorzando, fading away.

[Radar]

And I'll check those out, Radar! I think I usually like your recommendations.

My pleasure.

People around here have shown me a lot of great artists, so it would be impolite not to share something in return.

[Chromascope3D]

I tried, I honestly did. But my short attention span got the better of me by the time I got to 25.

[JoshL]

Pentangle! An old favorite of mine. RIP Bert Jansch

As for genres, I think they're more useful for describing songs than bands, let alone overarching movements. But interesting and/or fun in an "over-analysis" sort of way. Finding where lines are drawn and using them. Seeing how things are similar, and how they are different.

So, yes, Post-Punk and New Wave both grew out of the Punk of the 70s. But they diverged and each grew their own identities. There definitely are some artists that straddled the line (Fad Gadget comes to mind), but to say they're the same would be to say that they're both still punk. Devo you could maybe argue, but not a lot of other new wave really fits with that anymore. You can see more of the punk rock aesthetics and ideas in post-punk, however. Ultimately it really boils down to "do you like this song?" which is the only really important measure of music.

If we want to nitpick (because it's fun) "classical" is a horrible genre name for orchestral music, since that only really covers about 100 years. But you say classical music, and people generally know what you're talking about.

Tried putting together one of those charts, but even limiting myself to one album per artist, there's way too many things I love.

[Faulty]

Tried putting together one of those charts, but even limiting myself to one album per artist, there's way too many things I love.

I feel you. ~_~ Would have liked to see yours though.

[Mx.Silver]

Tried putting together one of those charts, but even limiting myself to one album per artist, there's way too many things I love.

I know your pain. One of the main problems is that I like a lot of different albums for different reasons -as is the case for many of us, I suspect - which makes deciding between them very difficult.

[Chromascope3D]

So, sometime before the year is out, we're due in for the new Ratatat and MGMT albums (coincidentally, two great sounds that sound great together), and a new Franz Ferdinand album next January, so I'm pretty excited.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

So, yes, Post-Punk and New Wave both grew out of the Punk of the 70s. But they diverged and each grew their own identities.

I suppose that's just another way to phrase this whole debate then, isn't it? "Did they get their own identities" and I gotta say; no I don't think they did. In the days before this distinction made people rabid I was happily calling Joy Division and This Heat "new wave" to no problems at all. I think any "distinction" is an invention of the genre-philes.

Ultimately it really boils down to "do you like this song?" which is the only really important measure of music.

Yeah but that doesn't mean we can't talk about genres. That's kind of a cop out.

So, sometime before the year is out, we're due in for the new Ratatat and MGMT albums (coincidentally, two great sounds that sound great together), and a new Franz Ferdinand album next January, so I'm pretty excited.

Oh god no, MGMT. I better start the preparations then.

"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil..."

[Moff Chumley]

Anyone ever listen to The Sonics, or 60s garage rock in general? That stuff's fantastic. I'm still working my way through Nuggets, it's quite a bit to digest...

@Crunk: post-punk is not "darker, edgier" new wave. No one is saying that but you. Just because there is overlap, doesn't mean they're fundamentally the same genre. It's like saying dreampop and shoegaze are the same thing.

Huh. I just saw it all over facebook and /mu/. Should have realized it would have probably been posted here.

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Word up.

Hey Raistlin, do you like indie rock?

Also, if 50's not doing it, here's a 100 album chart.

[JoshL]

I suppose that's just another way to phrase this whole debate then, isn't it? "Did they get their own identities" and I gotta say; no I don't think they did. In the days before this distinction made people rabid I was happily calling Joy Division and This Heat "new wave" to no problems at all. I think any "distinction" is an invention of the genre-philes.

Okay, let's take Joy Division, good example. They started as a straight-up punk band (under the name Warsaw). Drifted away from that into a new sound that was still clearly related to punk (Shadowplay is a good example). The two albums they released were absolutely post-punk (Closer being, er, closer to what would eventually be goth, but there's stil a lot of punk influence on that record). Now, Love Will Tear Us Apart you could call new wave. But you can also hear how it sounds different than the rest of their catalogue. Had Ian stuck around, they probably would have been a new wave band.

Bands change and evolve. As I said, genres are much better for song descriptions than they are for band descriptions. But you can hear the difference between LWTUA and anything off Unknown Pleasures, right? Hell, LWTUA has him CROONING! Anyway, the difference between the two, for my money, is how they relate to punk. And again, plenty of crossover and borderline cases (Devo and Fad Gadget) but staying in one genre forever is kinda boring. And the days before this distinction were approximately 1977-80, which was before my time, but by the time I started discovering post-punk (early 90s) it wasn't even an argument.

Yeah but that doesn't mean we can't talk about genres. That's kind of a cop out.

It's a bit trollish calling me out for saying genres don't ultimately matter beyond academic discussion when you claimed the only difference between two genres is held by "genre-philes". But anyway, no hard feelings, and I do find these discussions interesting. I've explained the point where I feel the two genres diverge. I'd be interested to hear a counterpoint to that.

[Raistlin1040]

Anyone ever listen to The Sonics, or 60s garage rock in general? That stuff's fantastic. I'm still working my way through Nuggets, it's quite a bit to digest...

@Crunk: post-punk is not "darker, edgier" new wave. No one is saying that but you. Just because there is overlap, doesn't mean they're fundamentally the same genre. It's like saying dreampop and shoegaze are the same thing.



Hey Raistlin, do you like indie rock?

Also, if 50's not doing it, here's a 100 album chart.

No way man, indie rock is for fracking hipsters. Also I will probably get on that top 100 at some point.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Okay, let's take Joy Division, good example. They started as a straight-up punk band (under the name Warsaw). Drifted away from that into a new sound that was still clearly related to punk (Shadowplay is a good example). The two albums they released were absolutely post-punk (Closer being, er, closer to what would eventually be goth, but there's stil a lot of punk influence on that record). Now, Love Will Tear Us Apart you could call new wave. But you can also hear how it sounds different than the rest of their catalogue. Had Ian stuck around, they probably would have been a new wave band.

I got nothing on this paragraph. I can't exactly disagree that bands change their sound over time, can I?

Bands change and evolve. As I said, genres are much better for song descriptions than they are for band descriptions. But you can hear the difference between LWTUA and anything off Unknown Pleasures, right? Hell, LWTUA has him CROONING! Anyway, the difference between the two, for my money, is how they relate to punk. And again, plenty of crossover and borderline cases (Devo and Fad Gadget) but staying in one genre forever is kinda boring. And the days before this distinction were approximately 1977-80, which was before my time, but by the time I started discovering post-punk (early 90s) it wasn't even an argument.

My response to this is a series of questions regarding common inconsistencies in the distinction. I asked them in the metal thread (are we really discussing this on two threads?) I do have to ask you to elaborate on how post punk and new wave each "relate to punk" because that could potentially be a mind changer but you don't really go into any detail.

It's a bit trollish calling me out for saying genres don't ultimately matter beyond academic discussion when you claimed the only difference between two genres is held by "genre-philes". But anyway, no hard feelings, and I do find these discussions interesting. I've explained the point where I feel the two genres diverge. I'd be interested to hear a counterpoint to that.

I don't understand how it's trollish. You said genres don't matter and I say that genres matter too much (yes I know it's a little more complex than that, it's four in the morning you can fill in the blanks.) That's kind of different, wouldn't you say?

@Crunk: post-punk is not "darker, edgier" new wave. No one is saying that but you. Just because there is overlap, doesn't mean they're fundamentally the same genre. It's like saying dreampop and shoegaze are the same thing.

Of course I'm the only one saying it. Someone really invested in the fictional distinction probably doesn't want to phrase it in a way that makes it sound as silly as it is. Dream pop and shoegaze has, what I'd like to call, a hazy border seperating the two. There's overlap but they are distinct. New wave and post punk is like one of those venn diagrams which is just one circle with thicker edges on either side.

[Raistlin1040]

Not that I care very much about this distinction, but here's how I think about it. This is a classic-sounding post-punk song. It has a pretty quick tempo and the driving melodic instrument is the bass more than the guitar. It's punky in that it's a fast song and still uses the basic punk instrument setup of a bass, guitar, and drums. However, the use of the guitar as a more rhythm instrument and the conversion of the bass into the chief melodic instrument does two things to the "feel" of the song. Firstly, it knocks off a lot of the punk "edge". The relatively clean sound of the guitar and the fact that it's used sparingly makes the music have less urgency. Compare that song to this one. The Ramones track is actually slower, but the guitar gives it more direction. The second, more important distinction, is the amount of "space" in the mix. Grinding Halt has a lot of space. Literally, the amount of reverb and echo used in the production makes it seem like it's being performed in a large, caverous warehouse, but more importantly, there are sections with very little guitar, and understated bass, with only the occasional snare drum hit. This isn't to say that the liberal use of space can't be applied to regular punk, but it's pretty typical of many post-punk songs.

By contrast, here is a decently typical early New Wave (1981) song. It's more similar to the traditional punk music, because there is less space and the guitar is used in a more dominant role. However, the introduction of the synthesizer as a melodic instrument sets it apart from a lot of post-punk and punk music, and the use of dub and reggae beats with the bass and drums puts it more in the experimental, late Clash type punk music than the more general Ramones/Sex Pistols style. Here is another example from a year and a half after the last song. It's noticable different from punk music, and incorporates a lot of dub influences, and uses a lot of texturing with the synthesizer. It's not very punk at all, yet also isn't dissimilar from the Duran Duran song, in terms of where the movement had gone.

In finding the difference, it's sort of hard to point things out, because the most important bands all shuffled around (while The Cure never went New Wave, their mid and later material was nothing resembling post-punk, for example). I'd argue that post-punk kept within a lot of punk parameters, but made a few noticeable changes, to basically make punk songs that pushed the limits of what it meant to be "punk". If you played Grinding Halt to Johnny Rotten circa 1975, he probably wouldn't consider it punk, but it uses punk conventions to make a new sound. By contrast, New Wave was far more open to experimentation, and was also more popular, meaning it branched out pretty quickly, with some acts going extremely heavy on the synthesizer, and others incorporating a lot of non-punk influences into their sound. For me, that's the fundamental difference. Post-punk didn't stick around for too long in the public consciousness, but was fundamentally punk music, just done with different instruments or melody/rhythm setups, while New Wave morphed into something else entirely.