Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)

[Midnight_v]

Thing is, unless you want to turn it into something else completely, the 'guy that swings sword' still operates mainly within the boundaries of reality. he might be stronger, faster and more resilient, but what he does is still running, lifting and punching. This means that by the point spellcasters have begun to rewrite the laws of reality to fit their goals, this whole archetype will inevitably become obsolete.

at high levels he's more than just a guy with a sword.
He's paul bunyon and the sentry.
He tough enough that he can swim in a volcano, or fight unaided in outer space. Magics not an impediment for him really either.

[LordBlades]

at high levels he's more than just a guy with a sword.
He's paul bunyon and the sentry.
He tough enough that he can swim in a volcano, or fight unaided in outer space. Magics not an impediment for him really either.

From my point of view, the guy whose answer to the need to cross a lava lake is 'I swim across and survive it' , while still incredibly bad-ass, is in a complete different league from the guy who waves his hand and the lake is gone.

The fact that you can punch a guy so hard that you literally break him into pieces means absolutely nothing if you're up against a guy that has made himself impossible to harm physically for example.

[Midnight_v]

The fact that you can punch a guy so hard that you literally break him into pieces means absolutely nothing if you're up against a guy that has made himself impossible to harm physically for example.

Right and thats issue right there.
Thats were the magical tea party ends in other terms.

Here's the deal with that...
The mages right to magic end, at the fighters right to throw a punch.
So basically you're not allowed to say "I'm immune to all physical damage" or rather you are, but when it comes to other "badasses" magical or non you only get a 50/50 chance of it working.
So while you're not going to die to town guards or even a dragons claws... You're not going to withstand the punches for very long of someone who is your equal, by virtue of being on the same level, but more so because in many ways he has control of his reality as well.
This reminds me of Frank and K's tome actually. . . maybe more on that in a bit.

From my point of view, the guy whose answer to the need to cross a lava lake is 'I swim across and survive it' , while still incredibly bad-ass, is in a complete different league from the guy who waves his hand and the lake is gone.

Interesting...
Okay here goes, think in terms of the same power levels.
I D&D even a level 20 wizard can't do what you just desrcibed (depending on the size and volume of the lake) so thats an epic spell. Really though in some ways thats a part of the problem, defining what magic can NOT do.

So if we've crossed that barrier into epic... the bar raises again.
That means we're officially at a power level at which the fighter can disintergrate things with each swing or maybe as a full-round action. So the epic melee guy raises his hand high and slaps the surface of the lake turning it to stone.
Or he throws his weapon through the lava flow, with such force that a vacuum is created forcing the lava back into the earth.

What fun magical tea party is.

The serious side of that is no one should be able to handwave the lava lake away OR, EVERYONE gets to.
The thing about this is magic is a free ticket, but in worlds like D&D you have to limit the ticket or there's nothing else in the end.
Or...
The last level mage is this guy
and
The last level fighter is this guy.

So yeah the concept is still the same but in a game that ends up in "god killing levels" yeah otherwise your only other alternative is to retire and roll up a char that can perform at those levels.
In 4th ed I believe there is a "demi-god" path for warriors, I don't know what it does but my analysis is that, well thats where Conan ends up if he kills enough Balors or whatever.

[LordBlades]

The serious side of that is no one should be able to handwave the lava lake away OR, EVERYONE gets to.

Completely agree. That's the core of the issue from my point of view. You can't speak of balance between the guys that can handwave the lava away and the ones that can't.

Of course' hadwaving the lava away' can be applied to any reality altering trick high-level mages can do (Astral Projection, Time Stop, Miracle/Wish and the list goes on).

[Adamantrue]

So I guess I'm asking you guys how you avoid getting bored playing a fighter? What's the appeal that keeps you playing one session after session?

I haven't seen this said specifically yet by anyone, so I guess I'll chime in.

Part of the draw for me when playing a Fighter is not having the perfect (or even an appropriate) answer to every problem. It becomes a matter of creativity as a Player to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Sometimes it ends up in a character death. A heroic death that may save the rest of the party, buying them the time they need or setting up a situation they can handle. Going out in a blaze of glory like that leaves me with quite a thrill, a sense of accomplishment.

Sometimes it leaves me filling another character's shoes. Everyone has a streak of bad luck, and when a party face has a series of bad rolls, my character will step up and maybe get lucky. Or maybe we're in a rush, so I just bash the lock with by axe instead of letting the rogue pick the lock, maybe enduring a trap, just so we can get out of Dodge.

And sometimes, I have the right tools for the task, and get to show off what I'm good at.

It seems to me that other classes/characters stay within their defined roles, because that is what they are supposed to be good at. I feel like I'm less limited than them in what I can do, because I'm not afraid to only do what I'm "good" at doing.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Beowulf is stated up in Dragon #329. He's a 15th level Fighter.

[Terazul]

Beowulf is stated up in Dragon #329. He's a 15th level Fighter.

Well possibly, but is there anything about him being a Fighter specifically that actually lets him do all the things he's supposed to be capable of? Other than maybe blowing all those bonus feats on "Hold Breath Real Good".

If that isn't a feat, it should be.

[Flickerdart]

Well possibly, but is there anything about him being a Fighter specifically that actually lets him do all the things he's supposed to be capable of? Other than maybe blowing all those bonus feats on "Hold Breath Real Good".

If that isn't a feat, it should be.

Breath Control, Dragon #333. Can hold breath for a number of rounds equal to your Perform (Wind Instruments) check.

[Greenish]

Expert Swimmer allows you to hold your breath 3xCon and gives a bonus to checks to hold your breath.

[Big Fau]

Breath Control, Dragon #333. Can hold breath for a number of rounds equal to your Perform (Wind Instruments) check.

So not only was it printed after his stats existed, they actually thought it was a good feat to print?


What Bard in his right mind would take that feat instead of using Water Breathing? That feat blows.

[MeeposFire]

In 4th ed I believe there is a "demi-god" path for warriors, I don't know what it does but my analysis is that, well thats where Conan ends up if he kills enough Balors or whatever.

Demi-god is an epic destiny that any character can choose. All character choose an ED at 21st level (other examples include archemage, archelich, Godslayer, etc). Demi God gives you several benefits including increased stats at 21, a daily utility that gives substantial regeneration, the ability to come back to life spontaneously once a day at 24, and the ability to regain encounter powers at level 30.

[Cog]

What Bard in his right mind would take that feat instead of using Water Breathing? That feat blows.

I'm not going to argue that it's a good feat, but there are certainly times where you'd want to not breathe and where Water Breathing would also not help you.

[Flickerdart]

So not only was it printed after his stats existed, they actually thought it was a good feat to print?


What Bard in his right mind would take that feat instead of using Water Breathing? That feat blows.

It's...a Fighter bonus feat. I don't think they intended it for Bards.

[Big Fau]

It's...a Fighter bonus feat. I don't think they intended it for Bards.

Then why the hell did they base it on Perform!?!?!?!

[NNescio]

It's...a Fighter bonus feat. I don't think they intended it for Bards.

What Fighter in his right mind would take ranks in... [incomprehensible gurgling]

[Ashiel]

Since our group keeps changing its composition in preparation of our next campaign (the Jade Regeant adventure path,) I've decided to make a few different characters to choose from. In looking at possible roles to fill, I've started considering playing a fighter or other melee class. The thing that I always come back to with fighters is that I see myself having fun shrugging off damage for a couple rounds or swinging a big greatsword for a session or two, but then growing bored with it.

It seems like I would have to invest multiple levels and feats into a fighter to make him good at any one thing, such as qualifying for Spring Attack to make him a mobile combatant, while I could get so many more options in a single level with a spell caster.

It seems like I can make a fighter who's good at hitting things hard and then hitting them harder or who can block an attack and then block an attack slightly better, but I can make a wizard who can burn things, hide things, transfrom things, and summon other creatures to do all sorts of other things. I suppose I can always try to interact with my environment to shake thngs up and give myself more options, but casters seem like they'd be better at that as well (mage hand, telekinesis, fire on demand, etc.)

So I guess I'm asking you guys how you avoid getting bored playing a fighter? What's the appeal that keeps you playing one session after session?

The best advice I could offer is using mundane tactics and gear to preform tricks. For example, a Fighter kind of lives and dies by his gear. You should carry a crapload of weapons as well. Some for every occasion. Guisarme for tripping, ranseur for disarming, spiked gauntlets for emergencies or attacking adjacent while holding reach weapons, bludgeoning weapons, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, a sling, alchemical weapons (like tanglefoot bags), etc. You should also carry cheap 1st level potions of nice buffs like enlarge person.

Combat Maneuvers are easier for fighters in Pathfinder because bonuses that add to your to-hit rolls apply to combat maneuvers preformed with those weapons. For example, if you have Weapon Training (Polearms) +3 and a +2 ranseur then you have a +5 bonus to disarming even if you don't have any of the improved disarm feats. Effects like bless and such likewise assist. This can be a fair option, especially if it involves sundering or disarming spell components, holy symbols, wands, staffs, or ranged weapons (disarming is usually a better route for such things if the item would be loot, but sundering might mean the difference between you being alive or dead).

That's better than in 3.x because it's not just a matter of strength + massive size bonuses. Stuff like tripping was a fool's errande in 3.x because it was a strength check vs strength or dexterity check, and the target receives a somewhere between a +4 and +16 bonus for size categories above medium, and also got extra bonuses for having additional legs and such.

The biggest problem is that a Fighter just doesn't do a lot other than making attack rolls. Even combat maneuvers are just another form of attack roll. If you want a martial character that can fill the fighting man, warrior, knight, soldier, or mundane hero archtype, the ranger is a better bet.

The ranger can kick butt like the fighter (Treantmonk's guide recommends Switch-hit rangers, and I agree). Plus you get a lot of skill points, the ability to survive in rough conditions, sleep in medium armor without fatigue (that includes mithral full plate), and you get a pet at 4th level which can be a warhorse or similar. While you do get ranger spells which may be a turnoff for some, they are mostly utility and welcome. Plus being able to cast freedom of movement, gravity bow, pass without trace, longstrider, lead blade, and other spiffy ranger spells is nice; and gives you something you can do when you're not pounding face.

[NNescio]

The best advice I could offer is using mundane tactics and gear to preform tricks. For example, a Fighter kind of lives and dies by his gear. You should carry a crapload of weapons as well. Some for every occasion. Guisarme for tripping, ranseur for disarming, spiked gauntlets for emergencies or attacking adjacent while holding reach weapons, bludgeoning weapons, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, a sling, alchemical weapons (like tanglefoot bags), etc. ...

That's hard to afford unless you don't bother enchanting them.

[Ashiel]

That's hard to afford unless you don't bother enchanting them.

Actually it's not all that hard at all if you're anywhere remotely near your intended WBL. Half of such junk you can pickup off your enemies. A lot of it doesn't even need to be masterwork since an oil of magic weapon makes it a +1 weapon for 10 rounds, which is enough to pierce DR/Magic. Later on you can acquire some masterwork ones as money becomes available.

Likewise, for the cost of a single +2 weapon (+8000 gp) you can get 4 +1 weapons (+2000 gp each). Truthfully an extra +1 to hit and damage is nice, but I'd rather know that I can swap to my ranseur while under the effects of enlarge person and enjoy the benefits of being able to attack with reach and disarm foes from 20 ft. away, or swap to my +1 composite longbow and chuck cold iron or silver arrows at enemies, or turtle behind a shield while I attack with a one-handed weapon while fighting defensively, while providing my allies with 10 ft sqaures of soft cover.

Besides, in Pathfinder you cannot buy anything bigger than a +2 weapon or +3 armor in a metropolis with any certainty, which means that unless you've got some item crafters, you should really look like these guys:

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[Hiro Protagonest]

Besides, in Pathfinder you cannot buy anything bigger than a +2 weapon or +3 armor in a metropolis with any certainty, which means that unless you've got some item crafters, you should really look like these guys:

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...Or Plane Shift to the City Of Brass. Or pick them up during your adventure instead of just having gold coins lying everywhere.

[Ashiel]

...Or Plane Shift to the City Of Brass. Or pick them up during your adventure instead of just having gold coins lying everywhere.

Is the City of Brass a Metropolis? It is? Well then you can comfortably buy anything up to 16,000 gp there. Anything else is a gamble. Which means that anything up to a +4 ability score item, a +4 cloak of resistance, a +2 weapon, or a +3 full plate armor. Just like I said.

Also, why have coins lying around when you can carry art objects, gems, and other forms of lightweight currency that are much easier to manage? Besides, you should probably be putting those excess resources towards having some sort of special thing crafted for you by the party's spellcaster.

Likewise, yes you can totally pickup magical treasures during your adventures. However you're probably likely to find all kinds of stuff. So if you find a nice +3 weapon, that's great. But you can at least buy a +2 weapon in a metropolis, and if you find a +3 weapon you don't like ("What, it's a +1 flaming goblin-bane sword? Meh, I'll sell it.") you can trade it in and grab something else like a +2 weapon or a +1 undead bane weapon.

[Greenish]

For example, if you have Weapon Training (Polearms) +3 and a +2 ranseur then you have a +5 bonus to disarming even if you don't have any of the improved disarm feats.

If PF didn't chance that, add +2 from ranseur and +4 from it being a two-hander.

Of course, since Disarm is an opposed attack roll, you'd get benefits from everything that increased your to hit in 3.5 too.

Stuff like tripping was a fool's errande in 3.x because it was a strength check vs strength or dexterity check, and the target receives a somewhere between a +4 and +16 bonus for size categories above medium, and also got extra bonuses for having additional legs and such.

Well, size bonuses work both ways.

From what I hear, CMB/CMD hasn't exactly made combat maneuvers more viable in PF. Most everything that's big and strong will also have higher BAB (and thus CMD) than you. I might've been misinformed, of course.


[Edit]: Apparently, the modifiers to disarm from the handedness don't exist in PF, except for unarmed strike, because monks obviously need the challenge.

[navar100]

So not only was it printed after his stats existed, they actually thought it was a good feat to print?


What Bard in his right mind would take that feat instead of using Water Breathing? That feat blows.

Because he can then learn a different spell and cast that instead. Just because a spell can do something doesn't mean you must use it.

[Coidzor]

Because he can then learn a different spell and cast that instead. Just because a spell can do something doesn't mean you must use it.

So a bard should use a more valuable resource when a less valuable resource can be used to cover that same circumstantial use?

That seems to be a deliberately bad move.

[Dr.Epic]

Why play a fighter? Because mages and thieves are lame.

[Provengreil]

If PF didn't chance that, add +2 from ranseur and +4 from it being a two-hander.

Of course, since Disarm is an opposed attack roll, you'd get benefits from everything that increased your to hit in 3.5 too.

Well, size bonuses work both ways.

From what I hear, CMB/CMD hasn't exactly made combat maneuvers more viable in PF. Most everything that's big and strong will also have higher BAB (and thus CMD) than you. I might've been misinformed, of course.


[Edit]: Apparently, the modifiers to disarm from the handedness don't exist in PF, except for unarmed strike, because monks obviously need the challenge.

to be fair, unarmed disaming usually ends with you beating a guy with his own weapon, which is massively bad for him, the the extra difficulty might be warranted for the potential reward

[Lord.Sorasen]

That's hard to afford unless you don't bother enchanting them.

What about a morphing weapon? Also this is probably not RAW and it's definitely not RAI, but what if you enchanted a sunblade with morphing? The weapon is held as a bastard sword but wielded as if it's a short sword... Which I suppose means if you changed the shape you'd have proficiency as long as you had short sword proficiency. And since Bastard sword is a two-handed and a 1-handed weapon, you could shape it as most anything... under the most liberal interpretation of the rules. Anyway back to topic morphing weapon could give you some interesting options all the time; there are plenty of decent exotic weapons that a single level of master of masks or warblade could get you (I know, not straight fighter, but still).

I am now aware of a much better answer given earlier. Discard this one, probably.

[Greenish]

to be fair, unarmed disaming usually ends with you beating a guy with his own weapon

Unarmed disarming ends with you wasting your attack, perhaps provoking an AoO for your trouble. If you succeed, congratulations, you're now holding a weapon you don't want use, or don't know how to use (monk proficiencies whoo!).

[navar100]

So a bard should use a more valuable resource when a less valuable resource can be used to cover that same circumstantial use?

That seems to be a deliberately bad move.

It's not a universal everyone should do it option nor should it be. It is more likely no one needs the feat and no one needs Water Breathing spell, just have a scroll or two of it as a just in case you need it again measure after the first time you really, really needed it but didn't have it.

[tyckspoon]

Unarmed disarming ends with you wasting your attack, perhaps provoking an AoO for your trouble. If you succeed, congratulations, you're now holding a weapon you don't want use, or don't know how to use (monk proficiencies whoo!).

More accurately, you are now holding the object your opponent requires to be a significant threat, while you are free to continue beating him with your head/knees/feet/elbows/beard/weird vestigial alien appendage. It's not like the Monk doesn't have a special callout reminding you that you don't have to use your hands to make Unarmed Strikes or anything. It's actually quite a good situation for the Monk, if he can work the numbers to start with to the point where has a good chance of succeeding the Disarm.

Re: Holding your breath feat tangent-
The really, really dumb part of that is that the rules on holding your breath are already quite generous. You get double your Constitution score before you have to start making checks. Your bog standard Commoner can be underwater or in an airless environment for a full 2 minutes before being at risk of suffocating/drowning. If you have to be underwater for more time than that, chances are you need to be down there long enough that only something with the long duration of Water Breathing or similar effects will do the job.. nevermind that with the 14 to 20+ range of Con common to adventurers and especially Fightery types, the default 2xCon rounds is probably much longer than their Perform check result.

[Provengreil]

Unarmed disarming ends with you wasting your attack, perhaps provoking an AoO for your trouble. If you succeed, congratulations, you're now holding a weapon you don't want use, or don't know how to use (monk proficiencies whoo!).

I apologize, i missed a word. i should have typed "successful unarmed disarming..."

Also, seeing as the thread is about fighters, odds are you have proficiency with the weapon. If it is exotic, a nonproficient attack penalty isn't too bad for a full BAB class. as for not wanting to use the weapon, isn't it much worse for your enemy to be armed and you not rather than the reverse, regardless of whether you keep the weapon after the fight?