Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)

[Coidzor]

Hmm, definitely better than average in terms of how enjoyable it was to read. I'd give it about a 4 out of 5.

[Lord_Gareth]

Hmm, definitely better than average in terms of how enjoyable it was to read. I'd give it about a 4 out of 5.

You forgot to dock it points for having no relation whatsoever to the mechanics.

[Coidzor]

You forgot to dock it points for having no relation whatsoever to the mechanics.

Well, we'd already established that as a handicap earlier, so I figured I'd go easy on the writing itself.

The writer, on the other hand, needs to be savaged by ferrets that are covered in peeps.

[Nero24200]

Because people like feats. It's one of the reasons humans are popular (though there are other reasons). It's also why you may notice that almost all "fighter fixes" retain the feats.

If you shelled out bonus feats to everyone you may suddenly find no one bothering with the fighter.

[KnightDisciple]

I'm going to both agree, and disagree, with the common consensus about "fighters are totally useless lol". At least so far as Pathfinder goes.

I will state that I like ToB, though I haven't had a huge personal sample size to build off of (one IRC-based game for a yearish now).

Anyways. Pathfinder Fighter.

I'm in a Pathfinder game, level 10 at the moment, with a party of 5 (counting myself) that consists of the following:
Half Elf Barbarian with a Large Greatsword; has got nearly 200 HP and seems to be able to easily do 30-40 damage on a hit (before vital strike). Hits probably 75% of the time (or more).
Human Paladin with a Greatsword; he's not terribly far behind the barbarian on damage and hit ratio, and against evil things he's (obviously) quite potent.
Half-Elf Cavalier who...well, this character frankly was built to be a horse charger, but we've mostly fought in the city. Add onto that Paizo's seeming hatred for this class (when they super-nerfed it from the beta version), and she hits a decent amount of the time, but without a huge amount of damage.
Gnome Summoner who really likes UMD, so he's got lots of tricks up his sleeve. Also, we're at the point he can summon Large elementals, so that's fun. Definitely shows that the class is more "support" oriented, though.
And me, the Half-Orc Archer Fighter. Any one non-VS hit does something in the 20s, especially if I Deadly Aim (ranged PA). And my to-hit is stupid high. As in, +21 at level 10. I've hit guys while carrying a -2 on my hits and rolling a 2.


Anyways. Yes, I'm sure a Cleric or Wizard would start oushining us about now. A druid, not quite as much. A sorc most likely.

But it wouldn't be the gulf of "we can't even approach that shadow", it would be "they're doing about 25% to 50% more, but we can go all day".

Basically, while it's still a caster-favoring game, Pathfinder at least gives some fun times to playing a Fighter or similar class.

*Prepares to be told by a legion of people how he's wrong or something*

[AmberVael]

*Prepares to be told by a legion of people how he's wrong or something*

You're not really wrong at all, you just never said anything that would demonstrate how your character has more options than "shoot someone in the face," which was the primary purpose of this thread (as the OP felt that continually using such an option was boring).

This thread has nothing to do with optimization at all, in fact, just about whether something is interesting to play. And it seems that for the fighter to be more interesting to the OP, he needs more options... and it isn't really tailored to provide that.

It just happens that having more options tends to make you more powerful.

[The Glyphstone]

Anyways. Yes, I'm sure a Cleric or Wizard would start oushining us about now. A druid, not quite as much. A sorc most likely.

But it wouldn't be the gulf of "we can't even approach that shadow", it would be "they're doing about 25% to 50% more, but we can go all day".

Basically, while it's still a caster-favoring game, Pathfinder at least gives some fun times to playing a Fighter or similar class.

*Prepares to be told by a legion of people how he's wrong or something*

The only way you could possibly be 'wrong' here is the statement of going all day - I suppose the Paladin could Lay on a few Hands or throw a couple Cure Lights, but you're an almost all-Martial party without magical healing, you must be spending money hand over fist for potions/wands. That issue aside, you've got an excellent party balance dynamic...Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Cavalier are all cheerful T4s, with your only T2 (Summoner) happily playing support (which is a question, what's he going with his Eidolon)?

[KnightDisciple]

You're not really wrong at all, you just never said anything that would demonstrate how your character has more options than "shoot someone in the face," which was the primary purpose of this thread (as the OP felt that continually using such an option was boring).

This thread has nothing to do with optimization at all, in fact, just about whether something is interesting to play. And it seems that for the fighter to be more interesting to the OP, he needs more options... and it isn't really tailored to provide that.

It just happens that having more options tends to make you more powerful.

That's a fair enough statement.

Though, that said, there's at least a little bit more breadth of options in Pathfinder, since you aren't punished for taking non-class skills. If nothing else, your Fighter can do a couple extra things.

The only way you could possibly be 'wrong' here is the statement of going all day - I suppose the Paladin could Lay on a few Hands or throw a couple Cure Lights, but you're an almost all-Martial party without magical healing, you must be spending money hand over fist for potions/wands. That issue aside, you've got an excellent party balance dynamic...Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Cavalier are all cheerful T4s, with your only T2 (Summoner) happily playing support (which is a question, what's he going with his Eidolon)?

We do spend some on potions and wands, but we've gotten pretty good loots, so it's not crippling. And we've gotten some as loot more than once. It helps that after fighting the weakened Pit Fiend, we've mostly faced mooks.

I'd put the Cavalier at the bottom of the tier, or at least how I'm seeing it played. Part of that's on the player, though; he has an odd like for concepts that are mechanically weak. I 'unno.

The Eidolon is a combination walking shield and sensor. Our Summoner knows he could build a combat monster, but he likes getting +20something to Perceptions instead. Maybe it's almost +30 now, I don't remember. But yeah, Eidolon's less combat-focused.

He's starting to throw out mystic hurt, though. He's got some wands of attack spells and such, and his Cha+UMD is high enough he can auto-used them.

[Icestorm245]

Would it be fair to give fighters a bonus feat of their choice that they need not have the preresiquites for? Every 6 levels maybe? Within reason, of course. I just couldn't justify giving a 6th level fighter weapon supremacy =P

[Legendairy]

Don't forget the alternate fighters and such they add to it alot so you can be a sneaky fighter and whatnot. The biggest thing is roleplay and also race if you are worried about getting bored and that alone or versatility they are two different things. Think about a race with SR so even if the mage is blasting its less of a threat and fortified armors and such. One of my favorite characters was a straight fighter and we had a cleric that knew how to buff with fortified armor and SR and things like Divine Might and whatnot. The ultimate scary meat shield from the core books. If its just a Melee class issue Barbians can be a blast aswell.

Wanna make the party hate you? Be a fighter and try to get an adamantine weapon and sunder everything. Another fun thing was using 3 different great swords i had one that was an animated one and attacked then quick draw the biting one hit them and command it to bite (think its a dc 25 str to pull it out AFB so i don't recall exactly) then pull out the last one and sunder. You will have one floating and attacking one attached to them giving them penalties on everything, and another you are sundering whatever they are using to hit. Fighters can be fun if not OP gear helps a lot the race helps a lot but in the end its your RP style and what you want the character to be.(had one that talked to his weapon as if it were alive, it wasnt) so be creative. Boredom in combat? why with soooo many options. Do not be afraid to be screwed with so many feats venture out.

[The Glyphstone]

Would it be fair to give fighters a bonus feat of their choice that they need not have the preresiquites for? Every 6 levels maybe? Within reason, of course. I just couldn't justify giving a 6th level fighter weapon supremacy =P

The last thing a fighter needs is more feats.

[Seerow]

The last thing a fighter needs is more feats.

Yo dawg, I heard you liked feats, so I gave you some feats, so you can have feats while using your feats.





But seriously, more feats isn't a BAD deal, and there is a benefit to giving more of them. As long as you realize it's not going to be a complete solution, and still more will be needed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's kinda unfair when you optimize the Rogue to be capable of oneshotting a Frost Giant (133 HP) in a single attack, but stick your Fighter with such an awful Strength he can only do 13 HP with a Falchion Crit...

Fighters can be Uberchargers as well as anyone else, and Uberchargers beat out anything else in the game on raw damage except a max-tooled blaster-caster. The problem isn't that they can't fight, it's that they can only fight. Which, if that's all you want to do, is no problem at all.

Actually, straight fighter can't ubercharge worth anything, considering they have no access to pounce, and thus can only take one swing on a charge.

Even so, let's just say that you get that one really big hit. Fine. A level 20 Fighter can one-hit something CR 9... and this is supposed to be an accomplishment?

Meanwhile, what he cannot do:

* effectively threaten flying opponents
* effectively threaten opponents with miss chance
* effectively threaten opponents with reach

Sure, he's gonna charge that giant... then the giant gets an AoO against him before he can finish his charge, prevents him from closing with Stand Still, and laughs as the Fighter just wasted his entire action.

Rogues at least have UMD and can do things like UMD Wand of Flight, or wand of True Strike to negate concealment, or wand of grease to make target vulnerable to sneak attacks AND reduce his AC in some cases.

Your problem is that most encounters after around level 12 end up being ones that 'hulk smash' doesn't really work all that well on.

As far as Zhent Fighter... if a Samurai (see sig) can do it better than you can, that's a pretty low bar you just slid under.

[NNescio]

I tend to be able to enjoy fighters but I have to throw on a lot of alternate class features. It is like a salad in a lot of ways, the extras like dressing or croutons make a meal.

Generally a fighter properly utilizing the dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim and thug acfs is enjoyable as they bring much more utility than a standard fighter. You can take your average warrior and transform him into a mercenary who can track down his mark, kick down the door and smash their face into the wall.

The joy is found in amplifying that level of extraordinary, mundane power. Instead of throwing around spells and such you are simply a scary dude who will get to you & destroy you. This is fun found in grounding a character like that.

Rogue: "So how do we do this job?"
Wizard: "Well I could teleport us in, and throw around some orbs or summon a monster?"
Fighter: "Or we could kick in the door and break some faces?"
Rogue: "That's every solution to you."
Fighter: "Its every solution to me because it is always awesome."

MUST...resist...temptation...to quote... BMX Bandit...

[Hiro Protagonest]

MUST...resist...temptation...to quote... BMX Bandit...

Or I could just summon a horde of angels.

[Dralnu]

Because you want to play a character who is mundane and can hurt things with a weapon. Because you like the simplicity and don't want to be bothered with convoluted fighting mechanics when DnD is complicated enough. Because not every gaming group is optimized and sometimes having high STR, a two-handed weapon, full BAB and Power Attack is enough to be the primary damage dealer in the party and kick some ass. Because you like lots of bonus feats. Because you want to play a fighter.

In the campaign I'm in, we have a Fighter. We're not optimized. He's the primary tank and damage dealer. He likes his character. He doesn't care for anything more complicated than "I power attack." He has fun and nobody complains.

[Zonugal]

Even so, let's just say that you get that one really big hit. Fine. A level 20 Fighter can one-hit something CR 9... and this is supposed to be an accomplishment?

Meanwhile, what he cannot do:

* effectively threaten flying opponents
* effectively threaten opponents with miss chance
* effectively threaten opponents with reach

Man, fighters have the same difficulties other melee characters do? Hu-wha!?!

Sure, he's gonna charge that giant... then the giant gets an AoO against him before he can finish his charge, prevents him from closing with Stand Still, and laughs as the Fighter just wasted his entire action.

Sure is nice being biased in a way as to pre-select a monster's feats to lock-down a character.

Rogues at least have UMD and can do things like UMD Wand of Flight, or wand of True Strike to negate concealment, or wand of grease to make target vulnerable to sneak attacks AND reduce his AC in some cases.

A fighter can easily get access to UMD as early as first level and have it for their entire career. It is a trivial pursuit at best for them.

As far as Zhent Fighter... if a Samurai (see sig) can do it better than you can, that's a pretty low bar you just slid under.

It doesn't matter if the Samurai can do it better, the Zhent Fighter has literally spent nothing to gain the ability while your samurai had to be built to do it. I'll take good & free over great & expensive any day...

[Hiro Protagonest]

A fighter can easily get access to UMD as early as first level and have it for their entire career. It is a trivial pursuit at best for them.

But now you are no longer playing a fighter. You are playing a WBL dependent gish.

[Greenish]

the Zhent Fighter has literally spent nothing to gain the ability

9 levels of fighter is quite a sacrifice.

[NNescio]

Man, fighters have the same difficulties other melee characters do? Hu-wha!?!

Warblades, Crusaders, Swordsages, Duskblades, Battledancing Bards, TWF Rangers*, TWF Rogues, Paladins*, Psionic Warriors, Quickdraw Factotums, Hexblades, Meleeficers, CoDzillas...

(*With ACFs or the SpC.)

[Coidzor]

Yo dawg, I heard you liked feats, so I gave you some feats, so you can have feats while using your feats.


But seriously, more feats isn't a BAD deal, and there is a benefit to giving more of them. As long as you realize it's not going to be a complete solution, and still more will be needed.

Unless you mess with the feat system's paradigm in order to compensate for it.

Like how the current feat system is set up with feat chains in order to limit the efficacy of fighter bonus feats.

Which has recently become my biggest objection to the Fighter, they actively devalue the piddly number of feats everyone else gets in their career, directly for martially inclined characters and indirectly for the rest.

The only way you could possibly be 'wrong' here is the statement of going all day - I suppose the Paladin could Lay on a few Hands or throw a couple Cure Lights, but you're an almost all-Martial party without magical healing, you must be spending money hand over fist for potions/wands.

Indeed, Pathfinder even does away with most of the convenient options for topping yourself off between fights for mundanes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Man, fighters have the same difficulties other melee characters do? Hu-wha!?!

Only they have no way to overcome those difficulties

Sure is nice being biased in a way as to pre-select a monster's feats to lock-down a character.

What, you mean you only want to fight encounters that can't challenge a guy half their CR? Hey, if that's what ya wanna do, go right on with that.

A fighter can easily get access to UMD as early as first level and have it for their entire career. It is a trivial pursuit at best for them.

As opposed to having it in-house.

It doesn't matter if the Samurai can do it better, the Zhent Fighter has literally spent nothing to gain the ability while your samurai had to be built to do it. I'll take good & free over great & expensive any day...

Wait, you mean a 10th level ability isn't free when you get 10th level? Could've fooled me. In fact, it's even EASIER because at least he doesn't need an ACF from an obscure sourcebook to manage the task.

Samurai 10 out of the box... intimidates everyone within 30' of him. Throw on Imperious Command and Fearful Armor. Now he does it as a move action, and forces all opponents who fail to Cower.

Zhent... can intimidate a single target. Doesn't need Fearful armor, at least, and can easily pick up Imperious Command, but can still only single-target. Samurai is locking down half the battlefield.

[Krazzman]

I just overread the first page, but from what I read I would say: Optimize the **** out of this Char. The Fighter can be fun, if you roleplay. In Fight it's jsut the same. Charge in make maneuver x and smash head z with weapon y.

I thought about playing one as well, until another one wanted to play one (therefore I will play an Paladin).

In Pathfinder they are a bit buffed instead of somethings like druid got straigth nerfed.

Have fun with splitting heads, read the optimizations and then roleplay the hell out of it :D

Have a nice day, Krazzman

[noparlpf]

Personally I prefer the UA generic Warrior if I want a "Fighter", but same difference. Otherwise I like Barbarian better.

Anyway, I like the Fighter for simplicity. I don't like having a big old spell list to pick from, or maneuvers to choose from, or all that. I've decided I prefer melee just because it's quick and easy.

[Zonugal]

But now you are no longer playing a fighter. You are playing a WBL dependent gish.

Same could be said for a rogue. Greater versatility does not come with a huge, necessary price tag. Should your party come across a wand, you being able to activate brings greater versatility to the situation.

Also I don't know why we are focusing so intently on WBL when any standard fighter should already by allocating a portion of his budget to a party caster as to purchase suitable buff wands. In a way you are cutting out that middle man.

9 levels of fighter is quite a sacrifice.

I'd say any levels of a samurai to be a worse one though.

Warblades, Crusaders, Swordsages, Duskblades, Battledancing Bards, TWF Rangers*, TWF Rogues, Paladins*, Psionic Warriors, Quickdraw Factotums, Hexblades, Meleeficers, CoDzillas...

(*With ACFs or the SpC.)

Warblades and Swordsages, those melee classes that don't have any reasonable ranged weaponry? Perhaps with a Bloodstorm Blade but then we are escaping into a prestige class. Those other classes are suitable for the task just as any fighter is although some are naturally going to be better. A ranger is going to have superb spells for the situation and a rogue will have sneak attack (if his foe is within 30ft, 60ft. if using acfs).

And good to see you couldn't hold off from bringing in an artificer or cleric into the situation. Nice way to ground the conversation to melee classes...

Only they have no way to overcome those difficulties

You listed common obstacles to nearly any mundane class in DnD, so let us perhaps see what we have. With range any fighter will be okay as it takes no skill for them to be reasonable at a longbow. They aren't rangers or rogues in this department, but they aren't designed to be (although with enough specialization will match them). Miss chance? That thing that is better than AC in almost every practical way? Well I guess when you are shooting for the moon everyone has better be an astronaut. Any standard fighter is going to have a ghost-touch weapon whenever they can (and if they really have the cash a Jade weapon) so let us address the obvious solution. But beyond that every mundane class has problems with this, rogues lose their precision damage and rangers are just as screwed as the fighter.

What, you mean you only want to fight encounters that can't challenge a guy half their CR? Hey, if that's what ya wanna do, go right on with that.

Maybe you could stick to the reasonably selected feats for a giant as opposed to cherry-picking feats specifically for your desired reason? Maybe we could do that?

As opposed to having it in-house.

Wait, you mean a 10th level ability isn't free when you get 10th level? Could've fooled me. In fact, it's even EASIER because at least he doesn't need an ACF from an obscure sourcebook to manage the task.

Samurai 10 out of the box... intimidates everyone within 30' of him. Throw on Imperious Command and Fearful Armor. Now he does it as a move action, and forces all opponents who fail to Cower.

Zhent... can intimidate a single target. Doesn't need Fearful armor, at least, and can easily pick up Imperious Command, but can still only single-target. Samurai is locking down half the battlefield.

My fighter can literally become anything it wants to a reasonable degree while maintaining strong intimidation skills/techniques. Your samurai, well we should revise this, every samurai literally only has that one thing going for it. Every samurai build is built around intimidation. So yes, for any fighter it is easier, and cheaper, to pick up intimidation skills.

You have a charger, an archer or a tripper? Guess what, they all can be good at intimidating for absolutely no loss to their own specialization. And you know what the best thing is, they have other things to do as well besides intimidate (which is a nice technique in battle but not the absolute strongest).

Oh and with Never Outnumbered your samurai is going to beat my fighter by twenty feet, which is nice but not absolutely game breaking. That cost my guy two skill points, which is still an easier/cheaper investment than any levels in one of the worst designed classes in the game.

So let us perhaps compare what we have here. You brought a samurai who is great at intimidation and I brought a fighter who is good at intimidation but can do other things too.

Man, how did I ever stand a chance...

[NNescio]

Warblades and Swordsages, those melee classes that don't have any reasonable ranged weaponry? Perhaps with a Bloodstorm Blade but then we are escaping into a prestige class. Those other classes are suitable for the task just as any fighter is although some are naturally going to be better. A ranger is going to have superb spells for the situation and a rogue will have sneak attack (if his foe is within 30ft, 60ft. if using acfs).

And good to see you couldn't hold off from bringing in an artificer or cleric into the situation. Nice way to ground the conversation to melee classes...

Here's the original post you were replying to:

Meanwhile, what he cannot do:

* effectively threaten flying opponents
* effectively threaten opponents with miss chance
* effectively threaten opponents with reach

Man, fighters have the same difficulties other melee characters do? Hu-wha!?!

Flying targets: Lightning Throw. Also most of the Tiger Claw discipline, and some Shadow Hand as well.
Miss chance: Close eyes - > Hear The Air. Also, some others from Diamond Mind.
Opponents with reach -> Tiger Claw, White Raven Tactics, Shadow Hand... take your pick.

And really, pure Meleeficers and CoDzilla builds can do nothing but buff and melee. If those aren't melee characters I don't know what is. At least they get to still melee instead of -well- take out the unenchanted longbow and plink at targets.

[Zonugal]

As much as I would love to believe in Samurai Jack, jumping is really not a viable form to attack flying foes...

And really, pure Meleeficers and CoDzilla builds can do nothing but buff and melee. If those aren't melee characters I don't know what is.

What? Ahaha, WHAT!?!

[Provengreil]

Only they have no way to overcome those difficulties

how about the monk? the samurai? the rogue? the barbarian? the paladin? or any other melee class? dude, none of them have class abilities that function against flying enemies they can't reach, ghosts they can't damage, or miss chances they can't penetrate. why is fighter singled out here?

What, you mean you only want to fight encounters that can't challenge a guy half their CR? Hey, if that's what ya wanna do, go right on with that.

what if, perchance, you didn't just pick a feat giants aren't listed as having and give every giant in the game this feat on the chance that a charger build appeared?

As opposed to having it in-house.

not seeing the issue. fighters are in no way magic users, why should they get UMD as a class skill?

Wait, you mean a 10th level ability isn't free when you get 10th level? Could've fooled me. In fact, it's even EASIER because at least he doesn't need an ACF from an obscure sourcebook to manage the task.

Samurai 10 out of the box... intimidates everyone within 30' of him. Throw on Imperious Command and Fearful Armor. Now he does it as a move action, and forces all opponents who fail to Cower.

Zhent... can intimidate a single target. Doesn't need Fearful armor, at least, and can easily pick up Imperious Command, but can still only single-target. Samurai is locking down half the battlefield.

since we're also pointing out weaknesses...
Dragons. undead. constructs. oozes. plants. things with significantly higher level than you. things with access to protection of your alignment. things with access to remove fear. paladins. anyone near said paladins. all of these things are immune or at least extra resistant to your intimidation. the fighter will still be pretty effective without it, at least as far as effective fighters go. Samurai are known for not being so good.

[Greenish]

Miss chance: Close eyes - > Hear The Air.

That's still 50% miss chance.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As much as I would love to believe in Samurai Jack, jumping is really not a viable form to attack flying foes...

Leaping Dragon Stance + any Tiger Claw maneuver that requires you to jump.