Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

[NNescio]

Depends on the spell list, mostly.

I specified the Druid's spell list.

[MeeposFire]

I just wanted to give that a plus 1.
Its true, it's relavent, and its pretty awesome.
They did a really good job with those classes.

Edit: I was about to say "didn't they nerf the Animal Companions" but I went to check... Still really good.
Still tier 1. (also apparently you can now pick vermin, no feat required, and its not "Just" off a list of critters. So... you know go wild. )

It doesn't surprise me that those classes weren't made by Paizo and they are better than the vast majority of their efforts.

[Lateral]

It doesn't surprise me that those classes weren't made by Paizo and they are better than the vast majority of their efforts.

Yup, they were made by Dreamscarred Press- and they have the guy who wrote the XPH, and was left out of CPsi. Their work is better than the vast majority of Wizards' efforts, too.

[Curious]

It doesn't surprise me that those classes weren't made by Paizo and they are better than the vast majority of their efforts.

I dunno, Paizo actually isn't that bad. Of the classes that they have created entirely on their own, they break down to-

Tier 1's: Witch.

Tier 2's: Oracle, Summoner.

Tier 3's: Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus.

Tier 4's: Cavalier, Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai.

Not a terrible breakdown really, mostly tier 4 to 3-ish.

[Gametime]

What exactly makes the Summoner tier 2, as opposed to tier 3? Admittedly, I've never played one, but the impression I get from reading it's spell list is that it's on par with the other 2/3 casters. Eidolons are big and strong, but having a pet fighter doesn't bump one into tier 2. Am I missing something?

[NNescio]

What exactly makes the Summoner tier 2, as opposed to tier 3? Admittedly, I've never played one, but the impression I get from reading it's spell list is that it's on par with the other 2/3 casters. Eidolons are big and strong, but having a pet fighter doesn't bump one into tier 2. Am I missing something?

Summons. Same reason why the Binder is Tier 2 with Summon Monster.

[Curious]

What exactly makes the Summoner tier 2, as opposed to tier 3? Admittedly, I've never played one, but the impression I get from reading it's spell list is that it's on par with the other 2/3 casters. Eidolons are big and strong, but having a pet fighter doesn't bump one into tier 2. Am I missing something?

Summoners might only have six spell levels, but the spells they get are usually of a higher level altogether. For instance, looking at their spell list, they get Haste as a second level spell, Create Demiplane (an 8th level spell) as a 6th level, and that's just off the top of my head. In short, their actual spell list is far better than most other 2/3 casters.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Is paladin really only tier 4? Their animal companion has the same power as a druid's now (and a higher intelligence score), and their ability to heal themselves as a swift action, smite an enemy till death, etc etc seem to me to be very major boosts to the class, though maybe I just don't understand.

PS: What about soulknife's alternate rule on the sidebar there boosting both soulknife weapon and psionic casting? Would it be enough to boost it to tier 3?

[Infernalbargain]

Actually I think I found something that might make any arcane sorcerer outstrip wizards with a bit of cheese. So an arcane sorcerer gets additional spells at 9th, 13th, and 17th level. At say, 16th level, they put on a Robe of Arcane Heritage, what happens? Well they should get their 17th level ability, which is learning a new spell. This is harmless. What happens when they take it off? Even if they lose the learned spell when they take it off, they gotta learn a new spell when they put it back on. There's nothing by RAW that's saying they must pick the same spell again, nor is there any kind of delay in the effects. So under this reading, arcane sorcerers can spontaneously cast from their entire list by quickly putting on and off their robe of arcane heritage (between levels 5 and 16 at least). I think that certainly qualifies for tier 1.

[MeeposFire]

Tiers are not designed to be considered for extremely niche build ideas. I don't even like splitting them by class abilities unless it is very character defining but what you are talking about is a single exploit of an item and that is really too niche to put a class up a tier..

[Lateral]

Actually I think I found something that might make any arcane sorcerer outstrip wizards with a bit of cheese. So an arcane sorcerer gets additional spells at 9th, 13th, and 17th level. At say, 16th level, they put on a Robe of Arcane Heritage, what happens? Well they should get their 17th level ability, which is learning a new spell. This is harmless. What happens when they take it off? Even if they lose the learned spell when they take it off, they gotta learn a new spell when they put it back on. There's nothing by RAW that's saying they must pick the same spell again, nor is there any kind of delay in the effects. So under this reading, arcane sorcerers can spontaneously cast from their entire list by quickly putting on and off their robe of arcane heritage (between levels 5 and 16 at least). I think that certainly qualifies for tier 1.

Except that a wizard can do that without dependence on a magic item, without any cheese, and at all levels. Ostensibly, crusaders can kill anything with a single attack and crush the action economy beneath their little finger- does that make them tier 2? No, because that requires serious cheese, a dubious interpretation of the rules, and a gearing of the build towards that end.

(Admittedly, that's a pretty flimsy example, but I can't think of a better one.)

[Fox Box Socks]

Gunslinger Tier 4? Really?

All it can do is shoot things, and it doesn't even do it that well, either. I'd say it's about on par with the Fighter in high Tier 5 land.

[Infernalbargain]

Except that a wizard can do that without dependence on a magic item, without any cheese, and at all levels. Ostensibly, crusaders can kill anything with a single attack and crush the action economy beneath their little finger- does that make them tier 2? No, because that requires serious cheese, a dubious interpretation of the rules, and a gearing of the build towards that end.

(Admittedly, that's a pretty flimsy example, but I can't think of a better one.)

Isn't the tier system assuming that your cheesing things up?

[Lateral]

Isn't the tier system assuming that your cheesing things up?

NOOOOOOOOO.

[Curious]

So, common consensus seems to be that Fighter and Gunslinger both deserve a place in tier 5. Yes, or no?

[Fox Box Socks]

That would be my estimation. Remember, optimization usually results in the class being a tier higher. If the best you can ever hope to possibly be is a one trick pony, that's clear Tier 5 territory.

[Togath]

Mid or high tier 4 seems about right for the gunslinger, or at least a higher tier than fighter, as they possess most fighter abilities in addidtion to thier own abilities. They can only really do damage(without using things such as pistolero and mysterious stranger at the same, which may or may not be possible[and looking at the pistolero, it looks like they aren't supposed to be compatible]), but are still more versitile than a fighter, even if only slightly, it seems like enough to bump them up to tier 4.

edit: nevermind, hadn't relised pf fighters had class features., gunslinger isn't much better then, gunslingers may actually be less versatile

[Curious]

Alright, Fighter and Gunslinger added to tier 5.

[MeeposFire]

Isn't the tier system assuming that your cheesing things up?

No the tiers (at least by JaronK) do not assume any particular optimization level. It assumes that the classes are using the same level of optimization. So if you were using (on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the highest level of optimization) a level 5 OP for the samurai then you assume the same for a wizard. You don't compare a 10 samurai (intimimancer) and a 1 wizard (blaster wizard with 10 int at level 20) it just isn't fair nor does it make sense.

This is also why the truenamer doesn't fit in the tiers since in order to make it work at all you have to put in a ton of optimization work and if you do then you are comparing against high OPed builds and if you don't it doesn't work at all in which case you are comparing to other classes that actually work (even if they don't work well).

[Frosty]

So, if the party consists mainly of low tier characters, should the DM throw mostly low-tier monsters at the party?

If there's a Witch (t1), Inquisitor (t3), Cavalier (t5? Really?), Ninja (t5), and a Gunslinger cohort (t5), what kinds of encounters might challenge the entire party but not overwhelm them?

[Psyren]

I approve of Gunslinger as T5.

Is PF Rogue still T4? Seems significantly more powerful due to the (much) broader SA application, beefier HD, more skills to spread around, and the acquisition of bonus feats/tricks earlier. I think it finally has the combat punch to pair with its jack-of-all-trades nature and become T3.

Also, there'll be more psionic classes to add when PsiEx is released - Vitalist, Aegis, Marksman, Erudite...

[Curious]

I approve of Gunslinger as T5.

Is PF Rogue still T4? Seems significantly more powerful due to the (much) broader SA application, beefier HD, more skills to spread around, and the acquisition of bonus feats/tricks earlier. I think it finally has the combat punch to pair with its jack-of-all-trades nature and become T3.

Also, there'll be more psionic classes to add when PsiEx is released - Vitalist, Aegis, Marksman, Erudite...

Not to mention it can use ninja tricks, which include things such gems as Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. . .

[Wings of Peace]

Am I the only one who feels like the Witch is the weakest of the PF tier 1s out of curiosity? I like the Witch's flavor and features but their spell list seems like the weakest to me.

[Psyren]

Not to mention it can use ninja tricks, which include things such gems as Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. . .

They can pick ninja tricks too? (Don't have UC.)

I don't even think they need them to be T3, but that helps. They should definitely be bumped up a tier.

[Anathemata]

I notice no one has brought up this particular class: the Witch.

I love the witch, and built one and played it in a one-shot where it was thoroughly trounced by a Dread Necromancer of the same level, 15th. I am not the best at playing/optimizing casters, I'll admit, but my examination of the class tells me that it is really a tier 2 caster (at best) rather than tier one. It seems to me that people take full prepared casting to be proof in itself of tier 1 status, which might not always be the case. Thoughts?

Sorry I don't have details of the one-shot. It was pretty epic.

[Gametime]

Summons. Same reason why the Binder is Tier 2 with Summon Monster.

Except the Binder can do it all day, while the Summoner is limited to 3 + cha uses per day. The Binder can also have multiple summons out at once and doesn't have to give up a crucial class feature to use it, whereas dismissing your Eidolon just to get a single summoned monster seems more like an emergency backup plan than a strong strategy. Admittedly, Binders can only get summons that can be affected by the pseudonatural template, but I think the sheer repeatability of summons is what makes online-vestige-Binders tier 2.

(I assume you're talking about the summon monster class feature of Summoners and not suggesting they use spells known on summon monster spells.)

Summoners might only have six spell levels, but the spells they get are usually of a higher level altogether. For instance, looking at their spell list, they get Haste as a second level spell, Create Demiplane (an 8th level spell) as a 6th level, and that's just off the top of my head. In short, their actual spell list is far better than most other 2/3 casters.

Getting spells at a lower-than-normal spell level isn't exactly rare among 2/3 casters; Bards get, say, Irresistible Dance at 6th level instead of 8th. But assuming you're right about their spell list being stronger (I haven't done the analysis), that doesn't necessarily make them tier 2. They could just be high tier 3. Being better than tier 3's doesn't mean you're ready to rumble with tier 2's; does the Summoner spell list stand up to the Cleric list (via Oracle) or the Wizard list (via Sorcerer)? Since all three have limited spells known, a Summoner should be able to bring to bear comparable power, and I'm just not seeing it.

[Curious]

Except the Binder can do it all day, while the Summoner is limited to 3 + cha uses per day. The Binder can also have multiple summons out at once and doesn't have to give up a crucial class feature to use it, whereas dismissing your Eidolon just to get a single summoned monster seems more like an emergency backup plan than a strong strategy. Admittedly, Binders can only get summons that can be affected by the pseudonatural template, but I think the sheer repeatability of summons is what makes online-vestige-Binders tier 2.

(I assume you're talking about the summon monster class feature of Summoners and not suggesting they use spells known on summon monster spells.)



Getting spells at a lower-than-normal spell level isn't exactly rare among 2/3 casters; Bards get, say, Irresistible Dance at 6th level instead of 8th. But assuming you're right about their spell list being stronger (I haven't done the analysis), that doesn't necessarily make them tier 2. They could just be high tier 3. Being better than tier 3's doesn't mean you're ready to rumble with tier 2's; does the Summoner spell list stand up to the Cleric list (via Oracle) or the Wizard list (via Sorcerer)? Since all three have limited spells known, a Summoner should be able to bring to bear comparable power, and I'm just not seeing it.

Okay, here are a few gems:
Wall of Fire as a 3rd.
Dimension Door as a 3rd.
Contact Other Plane as a 4th.
Mass Buff spells as 4th.
Wall of Stone as 4th.
Simulacrum as a 5th.
Greater Teleport as a 5th.
Wall of Iron as a 5th.
True Seeing as a 5th.
Maze as a 6th.
Dominate Monster as a 6th.
Greater Planar Binding as a 6th.
Teleportation circle as a 6th.

Every single one of these spells are down a level from their original form, and some are down two or even three.

So, yeah, they basically have spell lists competitive with full spontaneous casters, as well as a very good beatstick as a class feature, and the ability to summon more if you need to.

[Arbane]

Am I the only one who feels like the Witch is the weakest of the PF tier 1s out of curiosity? I like the Witch's flavor and features but their spell list seems like the weakest to me.

In my extremely limited experience, (Disclaimer - I've only gotten my witch up to level 3 so far), their spells definitely don't seem to have as much ULTIMATE COSMIC POWAR!@!! as the Wizard, but they can spend most fights spamming Hexes and save the spells for before and after battles. But they are fairly flexible, and can usually find a spell for any situation the Hexes can't help.

And since the tier list ranks classes by both flexibility and raw power, I think they probably deserve a spot on Tier 1. Possibly at the bottom of it, but consider the competition.

I love the witch, and built one and played it in a one-shot where it was thoroughly trounced by a Dread Necromancer of the same level, 15th. (SNIP)
Sorry I don't have details of the one-shot. It was pretty epic.

Can you recall how you got beat? If you just blew a save at the wrong time, that'll do it. All the COSMIC POWAR!!! in the universe can't save you when the dice betray you.

[Lans]

Gunslingers get access to all the deeds of the appropriate level correct?

[Curious]

Gunslingers get access to all the deeds of the appropriate level correct?

Correct. They can also gain additional Deeds through feats.