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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    In that case I think they might edge into tier 4 territory, but I'll have to look over it more

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    This is the first tier list I have found so much agreement with

    I think the summoner is Tier 2 (you can break the game with certain builds, and you have a lot of flexibility in an out of combat. IMHO, itmight not be as crazy as sorcerer and oracle, but it's so much closer to them than to the other T3s that it should be a T2)

    And I would argue that ninja and rogue are T3. The addition of Forgotten trick gives a lot of opportunities for getting the right combat or style feat to bypass or be incredible effective in a given encounter. While you have other good class features and really good skills)

    Edit: I have not played gunslingers yet, but I find it difficult to see them as being a whole tier above fighter (at least for now)
    Last edited by Drothmal; 2011-09-05 at 08:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Alright, so we've got more arguments for Nina/Rogue as tier 3's. Any dissenters, or more agreement? If we can get another few opinions, we can get these guys sorted.

    Personally, I'm not certain, and will probably go with the popular vote, as I can see good arguments for both tier 4 and 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Personally, I'm not certain, and will probably go with the popular vote, as I can see good arguments for both tier 4 and 3.
    Aside from inertia from the old tier-system, what makes the PF Rogue T4?

    (Can't comment on the Ninja as I haven't read through all the Tricks, but it certainly seems to be a step up from the WotC version as well.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Aside from inertia from the old tier-system, what makes the PF Rogue T4?

    (Can't comment on the Ninja as I haven't read through all the Tricks, but it certainly seems to be a step up from the WotC version as well.)
    The inherent limitation of the skill system. Really, with so many skills easily replaceable by spells or just brute strength, the usefulness of skills seems a bit questionable.

    But, as I said, I could also see them as tier 3's, since they have plenty to do out-of-combat, as well as having solid in-combat power.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    I'm really thinking that Human Oracle/Sorcerer should get bumped to low T1 through the increased spell list that they get, at least at higher levels. At worst, they're high T2.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    The inherent limitation of the skill system. Really, with so many skills easily replaceable by spells or just brute strength, the usefulness of skills seems a bit questionable.

    But, as I said, I could also see them as tier 3's, since they have plenty to do out-of-combat, as well as having solid in-combat power.
    ninja maybe tier 3 but rogue is still solidly tier 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chess435 View Post
    I'm really thinking that Human Oracle/Sorcerer should get bumped to low T1 through the increased spell list that they get, at least at higher levels. At worst, they're high T2.
    As I understand it, it isn't about raw power, it's about flexibility. Both Sorcerers and Oracles have wide-open spell lists, but each individual will only have a small fraction of those spells that they can cast.

    So yeah, high T2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    As I understand it, it isn't about raw power, it's about flexibility. Both Sorcerers and Oracles have wide-open spell lists, but each individual will only have a small fraction of those spells that they can cast.

    So yeah, high T2.
    What he means is that PF Sorcerors get a good number more spells known than 3.5 sorcerors, and Human Sorcs get another 17 on top of that. I think somebody did the math earlier, but it came out to 60-ish spells of level 1 to 9 for a Human Sorc. A heck of a lot better than a regular Sorc.

    ninja maybe tier 3 but rogue is still solidly tier 4.
    And what is the big difference between Ninja and Rogue? They both have free access to each others tricks and talents, and their abilities are pretty similar, so what's the reason?
    Last edited by Curious; 2011-09-06 at 12:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    The inherent limitation of the skill system. Really, with so many skills easily replaceable by spells or just brute strength, the usefulness of skills seems a bit questionable.
    Indeed, that's why the Expert isn't T3 - but the Rogue has a lot more going for it than skills.

    The only thing that really held it back from T3 in 3.5 was being too weak in combat; this weakness has been tackled in PF in four key ways:

    - Lots, lots more critters vulnerable to SA
    - Bonus fighter feats much earlier (2 instead of 11)
    - More base feats overall
    - Skill consolidation, letting you be a "savvy-talky" rogue and have tons of points to spare for the more combat-applicable feats like Tumble, Balance, Escape Artist and UMD.

    Combine all of the above with the fact that their out of combat utility is unchanged. In fact, if anything it's increased due to the Talents that let Rogues gain magical abilities of their own. So I definitely think they've made it to T3 now.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Rogues still have terrible standard actions by default. Think the swordsage. It is the standard action attacks that make the swordsage so mobile and effective. Rogues are still stuck trying to find ways to get full attacks and if they don't they can lose about 50-75% of their offense. That is too easy a drawback. Granted that is a very common problem in PF and no vital strike isn't an effective solution.

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    I haven't tested it myself, but so far I read in several sources (forum threads etc) that the PF Fighter had moved up to T4. This is the first time I read the improvements don't upgrade him from T5.

    Granted, my biggest beef with the PF Fighter is that they didn't give him anything except _more_ (static) combat bonuses, so he still can't do anything _but_ fighting. So the question is, does that qualify for "doing one thing quite well", or is its combat ability still "not all that well"?
    Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    As I understand it, it isn't about raw power, it's about flexibility. Both Sorcerers and Oracles have wide-open spell lists, but each individual will only have a small fraction of those spells that they can cast.

    So yeah, high T2.
    Agreed. It's much more versatile but it's still no Wizard.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    I specified the Druid's spell list.
    Well, yes, but the Druid's spell list is not the same in Pathfinder as it is in 3.5, and I recalled a lot being said about Druids having their place in the sun, at least initially, due to Wildshape which further expanded their power and versatility significantly. Rather than Wildshape being nothing more than a drop in the bucket, like Animal Companion, which, while good, didn't really figure into their tier rating.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    As I understand it, it isn't about raw power, it's about flexibility. Both Sorcerers and Oracles have wide-open spell lists, but each individual will only have a small fraction of those spells that they can cast.

    So yeah, high T2.
    In standard, the Sorcerer more than almost any other caster really depends on splatbooks for its power. If it wants to go DPS, it needs splats; if it wants extra actions cheaply, it needs splats. Though it's probably still a net gain considering the sheer amount of extra spells and that the rest of T1/T2 have lost some of their tricks as well, a lot of the outrageous stuff that high OP Sorcs (and only Sorcs) use might not be available in PF.

    Does this thread assume only PF sources? I wonder if there are any classes that would go up a tier with access to both PF and 3.5 material.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    I haven't tested it myself, but so far I read in several sources (forum threads etc) that the PF Fighter had moved up to T4. This is the first time I read the improvements don't upgrade him from T5.

    Granted, my biggest beef with the PF Fighter is that they didn't give him anything except _more_ (static) combat bonuses, so he still can't do anything _but_ fighting. So the question is, does that qualify for "doing one thing quite well", or is its combat ability still "not all that well"?
    The thing is, he got given a bunch of little combat bonuses to things that the fighter was never having trouble with to begin with - small attack and damage bonuses, improved dex bonus and check penalties on armor (seriously? was this really a problem? A flat AC boost would at least have had some relevance...). These do nothing to solve the fighter's problems of lack of mobility (reliant on full attacks, mobile or flying enemies still leave you pretty screwed) and lack of options (your options in combat are still limited and your options out of combat are as poor as ever)

    In return, a lot of their best tricks got nerfed. Power attack is far weaker than before (and less controllable), trip now requires an extra feat and eats your attacks of opportunity, you can't get reach and close attacks at the same time (spiked chain was nerfed and not replaced, the best you can get now are weapons that switch from reach to close-up but not both at once), and their main feature (lots of feats) has been devalued by the increased feat gain for all other classes. Overall, I see no reason they should move up a tier; if anything, they're lower in tier 5 than before.

    On the human sorcerers, I think they're still high Tier 2. They're more flexible than they used to be, with the extra spells, but they still lack the adaptability of a wizard - if they find a situation they don't have a spell for, they can't change their list to adapt the way a wizard can, and that's the real hallmark of Tier 1. They're still "all the game-breaking power of a wizard, but fewer options for how to do it", which is the definition of T2.
    Last edited by Sir Enigma; 2011-09-06 at 06:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Enigma View Post
    you can't get reach and close attacks at the same time (spiked chain was nerfed and not replaced, the best you can get now are weapons that switch from reach to close-up but not both at once),
    Well, you can.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Engine View Post
    Well, you can.
    Not the same - it only applies on your turn, so it can't be applied for attacks of opportunity.

    The closest thing I've found is this, but it eats your move actions to switch, and can't be used for both at once.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Enigma View Post
    The closest thing I've found is this, but it eats your move actions to switch, and can't be used for both at once.
    You could switch with a swift action, as here.

    There's Combat Patrol if you need reach off-turn.

    I know, none of them is the same as the 3.5 spiked chain.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Enigma View Post
    On the human sorcerers, I think they're still high Tier 2. They're more flexible than they used to be, with the extra spells, but they still lack the adaptability of a wizard - if they find a situation they don't have a spell for, they can't change their list to adapt the way a wizard can, and that's the real hallmark of Tier 1. They're still "all the game-breaking power of a wizard, but fewer options for how to do it", which is the definition of T2.
    Are their options so limited?
    They've got not only the extra spells, but, having a feat at every odd-numbered level, with expanded arcana, a sorc. should really be full of options.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Are their options so limited?
    They've got not only the extra spells, but, having a feat at every odd-numbered level, with expanded arcana, a sorc. should really be full of options.
    The difference is that while they have a lot of options they don't have ALL the options which is the defining feature of a tier 1. They're not that far from being tier 1 and they're definitely the higher end of tier 2 but even with a spell selection focused on utility their list of options will be smaller than that of a caster like Wizard who has full list access.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Enigma View Post
    -Snip-
    While most of what you said is true, any reasonably well-optimized fighter is going to be trading those worthless pluses to hit for archetype abilities, which are almost universally better.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    The difference is that while they have a lot of options they don't have ALL the options which is the defining feature of a tier 1. They're not that far from being tier 1 and they're definitely the higher end of tier 2 but even with a spell selection focused on utility their list of options will be smaller than that of a caster like Wizard who has full list access.
    Pretty much this. The increased spells known unquestionably make Sorcerers more powerful and flexible - a lot more. What they don't have, and what IMO keeps them in Tier 2, is the possibility to change out their options to fit the situation. A sorcerer can't, for example, use divination spells to know what's coming and then swap around his spells to be prepared for it - whatever they pick, they're stuck with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    While most of what you said is true, any reasonably well-optimized fighter is going to be trading those worthless pluses to hit for archetype abilities, which are almost universally better.
    *shrug* I don't know enough about the archetypes to comment on them one way or another - I think archetypes are for a separate discussion once the base classes are placed. It's possible that good archetypes could move the fighter up from T5 to T4 (like Dungeoncrasher does in 3.5), I just think that the base fighter should remain T5.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    The inherent limitation of the skill system. Really, with so many skills easily replaceable by spells or just brute strength, the usefulness of skills seems a bit questionable.

    But, as I said, I could also see them as tier 3's, since they have plenty to do out-of-combat, as well as having solid in-combat power.
    Rogue benefits are debatable. Low-mid op rogues are stronger. High op rogues are much weaker (no swift action wands in wand chambers, no flask sneak attacks, many spells nerfed ability to get full round sneak attack (Blink, grease), so much lower damage output from high op rogue.)

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    While most of what you said is true, any reasonably well-optimized fighter is going to be trading those worthless pluses to hit for archetype abilities, which are almost universally better.
    Yea but most of the archetypes for fighters aren't very good (they sometimes get one good ability but tehn end up replacing decent abilities for bad abilities so it is a wash if you keep taking fighter levels). The mobile fighter might be best but its benefits come so late. Unless they got something really good recently?
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-09-06 at 12:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    Granted, my biggest beef with the PF Fighter is that they didn't give him anything except _more_ (static) combat bonuses, so he still can't do anything _but_ fighting. So the question is, does that qualify for "doing one thing quite well", or is its combat ability still "not all that well"?
    They still have awful standard action attacks due to lack of bonus damage, still have awful full attacks because they have to sacrifice their mobility for them, still have few to no uses for their swift/immediate built-in, and even the greater number of feats is nearly a wash due to PF's fighter feat dilution.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Awful standard actions is probably my most common complaint about PF classes. Despite the options getting much better at the end of 3.5 PF ignores it and goes back to a more 3.0 mindset on actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Yea but most of the archetypes for fighters aren't very good (they sometimes get one good ability but tehn end up replacing decent abilities for bad abilities so it is a wash if you keep taking fighter levels). The mobile fighter might be best but its benefits come so late. Unless they got something really good recently?
    DISCLAIMER: I've never played any of these archetypes in a game, so this is all just theoretical. I may be entirely wrong.

    The Aldori Swordlord mostly trades bonuses for roughly equivalent bonuses, but at level 11 they get the ability to counterattack as an immediate action. Not exactly Jack B. Quick levels, since you can only do it once a turn, but if you don't mind the weapon restriction it's still better than what you lose.

    Brawlers get some decent battlefield control abilities, including threatening 5-foot steps at level 9 and a big bonus on Stand Still (as well as it as a bonus feat) at level 13. Kind of late, but still better than what you're giving up. A decent way to trip without a reach weapon, if for some reason you're determined to do so.

    Cad is pretty forgettable for the most part, but the ability to use an immediate action to use a dirty trick against a flat-footed enemy you hit is pretty sweet, if you can reliably trigger it. Dirty tricks are normally terrible, since you're trading your standard action for their move, but being able to shut off an enemy's full attack while still full attacking them is pretty good action economy.

    Dawnflower Dervish gets pseudo-pounce, like the mobile fighter; still later than they should, still better than nothing.

    Roughriders get full attacks plus move at level 15, way later than they should (and only while mounted, when most mounted builds want to charge charge charge). I guess it's an okay backup if the terrain doesn't allow charging; likely better than what they lose from straight fighters, anyway.

    I'm not sure how good Tactician is because I haven't reviewed the teamwork feats (though I'm not optimistic). At the very least, the bonus skill points and boost to initiative (instead of saves against fear) seems well worth the lose of some small bonuses to attack and AC.

    Unbreakables get some okay bonuses - +x to saves against all mind-affecting, not just fear; ability to make another Fort save against something as a standard action; mettle - but nothing spectacular. The ability to make a new save against something, in particular, suffers from the same problem as Iron Heart Surge: anything you really want to get rid of probably won't let you take the action to get rid of it.

    Aside from that, most of the "specific weapon" archetypes seem better than going vanilla fighter and using that weapon, but offer mostly only small bonuses. So, yeah; my intuition is that a few archetypes - mobile, brawler, tactician, dawnflower, maybe cad, maybe some of the specific weapon ones - boost things up to tier 4. But again, I could be completely off base.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    If you are like Treantmonk and you really like Summon Monster spells, imo summoners are tier one and will continue to improve as they add more monsters to summon monster.

    Since they can summon as a standard action and have summons last for 1 min per level, if they want a spell, they can just summon something that can cast it and have it sticka round for a while longer.

    And the Eidolon + skilled evolution makes for a better skillmonkey than the rogue for low levels.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    The mobile fighter archetype gets a gimped move+full attack at 11th, and a non-gimped move+full attack at 20th. The abilities come too late, but 'lateness' doesn't keep it out of low T4. It can move and hit things, and it does it pretty well by PF standards. Of course, the Barbarian can get real Pounce one level earlier, so there ya go.

    If Summoners are T2 they are the lowest T2 I've ever experienced. T2 requires them to have broken tricks; while they get certain spells, like Wall of Fire, at the same time a T1 caster would get them, those are not the spells that are going to obviate entire adventure plans. I'd put them at high T3 unless you can really go bananas with summon monster.

    Witch hexes can cause some serious shenanigans when optimized properly; they're low T1, but still T1. The tier system isn't some crystal ball that magically describes every potential problem a DM might encounter with certain classes. That's why human sorcerers are T2, even though they are probably more of a problem for a DM than a T1 witch.
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