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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    DISCLAIMER: I've never played any of these archetypes in a game, so this is all just theoretical. I may be entirely wrong.



    Aside from that, most of the "specific weapon" archetypes seem better than going vanilla fighter and using that weapon, but offer mostly only small bonuses. So, yeah; my intuition is that a few archetypes - mobile, brawler, tactician, dawnflower, maybe cad, maybe some of the specific weapon ones - boost things up to tier 4. But again, I could be completely off base.
    Aldori swordlord-Bad. counter attack looks like a good ability but it costs both an AoO and your immediate action and that is too costly for what you get. 3.5 stuff was better and that did not raise the fighter's tier.

    Brawlers-Seems nice though the lack of reach is very troubling as is still the lack of mobility options. Does not fix any of the fighters real problems sadly.

    Cad- is too weak. One ability that is sort of worth it (but not really) isn't worth what you lose and does not make the fighter better.


    Dawnflower- this is like mobile fighter but worse. Still better than most sadly.

    Roughrider-mobile fighter is better and does not require you to use a mount that is likely to die. It is far too specialized.

    tactician-I love the skill points. I don't like most everything else especially since I think they overlap with mobile warrior which means you can't do both. If I could do both that might be worth while since it helps to two different key fighter problems.

    Unbreakable-This gets some nice stuff but it still lacks the fixes to other important (possibly more important) areas and its bonuses prevent you from getting those other abilities from other archetypes.

    You are not completely off base but the biggest issues are that you can't combine these together. Only getting one is not sufficient to change its tier. Getting the important abilities of mobile fighter (mobility), tactician (skills), unbreakable (defenses), an possibly brawler (disruption and control) would make the fighter decent if you could get them all at once. Sadly doing this would make your fighter about equal to what the fighter had in 2e AD&D but it would be better than what we have now by far.

    EDIT: You did a fairly good job of cutting through the bad. Swordlord I admit looks good if you miss the double action whammy and roughrider isn't bad as much as it is too specialized. Dawn Flower is worse than mobile fighter but it does have one of its important abilities so it did have that.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-09-06 at 04:50 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    If Summoners are T2 they are the lowest T2 I've ever experienced. T2 requires them to have broken tricks; while they get certain spells, like Wall of Fire, at the same time a T1 caster would get them, those are not the spells that are going to obviate entire adventure plans. I'd put them at high T3 unless you can really go bananas with summon monster.

    I would argue that summoners are a good T2 since they get a better version of an animal companion + all the summon spells + a bunch of good spells

    There are ways to abusing all 3 of those abilities separately. Together, you have a solid T2
    Last edited by Drothmal; 2011-09-06 at 04:53 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    The Dragoon archetype for Fighter finally allows for a weapon that can reach both far and near and threaten both far and near. No EWP needed either, since you're proficienct with spears and lances as a fighter.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    The Dragoon archetype for Fighter finally allows for a weapon that can reach both far and near and threaten both far and near. No EWP needed either, since you're proficienct with spears and lances as a fighter.
    That one ability is very nice but the rest is bad. Too many archetypes have a single good ability but ruins it with bad abilities everywhere else.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drothmal View Post
    I would argue that summoners are a good T2 since they get a better version of an animal companion + all the summon spells + a bunch of good spells

    There are ways to abusing all 3 of those abilities separately. Together, you have a solid T2
    Eidolon: T4 by itself. 2/3 spellcasting: Low T3 by itself. Summon Spells: Eh... I want to say T3 by itself, until I see an argument for something gamebreaking. There are ways to abuse CW Samurai, too, but that doesn't put it into a tier of potential gamebreakers. Just like the Druid would still be T1 if it just had the spellcasting, Summoners don't break out of T3 just because they have more T3/4 features. They are very nice out of the box, though... something which the tier system has trouble describing.
    Last edited by GoodbyeSoberDay; 2011-09-06 at 06:21 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Dawnflower- this is like mobile fighter but worse. Still better than most sadly.
    Wait- you mean better, right? It's the exact same thing, but it gets an extra attack instead of 'take 10 on acrobatics', and it doesn't lose it's capstone to do it.

    Eidolon: T4 by itself. 2/3 spellcasting: Low T3 by itself. Summon Spells: Eh... I want to say T3 by itself, until I see an argument for something gamebreaking. There are ways to abuse CW Samurai, too, but that doesn't put it into a tier of potential gamebreakers. Just like the Druid would still be T1 if it just had the spellcasting, Summoners don't break out of T3 just because they have more T3/4 features. They are very nice out of the box, though... something which the tier system has trouble describing.
    True, but its 2/3 casting is actually more like Conjuration-focused full-casting, seeing as they get a metric ton of spells heavily discounted spell levels from the Wiz list.
    Last edited by Curious; 2011-09-06 at 08:42 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Eidolon: T4 by itself. 2/3 spellcasting: Low T3 by itself. Summon Spells: Eh... I want to say T3 by itself, until I see an argument for something gamebreaking. There are ways to abuse CW Samurai, too, but that doesn't put it into a tier of potential gamebreakers. Just like the Druid would still be T1 if it just had the spellcasting, Summoners don't break out of T3 just because they have more T3/4 features. They are very nice out of the box, though... something which the tier system has trouble describing.
    Definitions of T2 and T3, emphasis mine
    Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.


    Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
    I would argue that the combination of all the summoner features makes the times they can bypass an encounter non-trivial.

    There are many ways of breaking the game with the Eidolon (from combat maneuvers to abusing the skilled evolution).
    There are many spells that can end encounters or facilitate them by a very large degree
    I am no expert on the summon monster spells (there are a lot of people much better than I at that), so I will leave exploits of that feature to others


    Also, having the eidolon and access to hast at level 2 gives you more action economy than any of the T3 classes, which I feel is enough to pull them over the T2 barrier


    I am assuming all level of optimization being the same. Sorcerers are T2 because they can break the game with the right spell selection, while still being very useful/flexible/powerful with a less optimized one. I believe that the summoner, with an equivalent level of optimization to the sorcerer, can be almost as broken/powerful (respectively)

    And yes, I did say almost, but I think it is an almost that still leaves the summoner in a T2


    EDIT: +1 to Curious' comment on the 2/3 casting being closer to full casting (should we say 85% )

    EDIT 2: I just went through the summoner's spell list: Most of their lvl 6 spells are lvl 8 sorc/wiz (at least 1 lvl 9). I think that's a bit better than others 2/3 casting
    Last edited by Drothmal; 2011-09-06 at 07:56 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drothmal View Post
    And yes, I did say almost, but I think it is an almost that still leaves the summoner in a T2

    EDIT 2: I just went through the summoner's spell list: Most of their lvl 6 spells are lvl 8 sorc/wiz (at least 1 lvl 9). I think that's a bit better than others 2/3 casting
    I agree on T2 for the Summoner. While it's true that the Summoner only gets 6 levels of spellcasting, the Summoner's spell list contains high level spells (and good ones too).
    Yes, the Bard gets high level spells too. But if one read them will see that are almost all Compulsion spell: a simple Protection (a meager level 1 spell) could render the high level spells of the Bard useless.
    Summoner's spells are more varied and, in my opinion, better.

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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Holy- I'm looking through the Barbarian rage powers right now, and I'm seriously considering whether they belong in tier 3.

    No, really! Check this; they can gain Pounce, flight and ER and DR (from one source), what is basically a good Will progression, the ability to Sunder spells, extra natural attacks, aggro abilities based on Intimidate, eat spells and gain temp hp equal to CL, a feat that makes it so they don't leave rage when unconscious, and more!

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Lots of the abilities come online kinda late and by that time, they're kinda meh.

    They were probably buffed, but not in a versatility path.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post

    Cad- is too weak. One ability that is sort of worth it (but not really) isn't worth what you lose and does not make the fighter better.
    I dunno, all you lose are bravery (which is nice but not huge), armor training (which everyone complains about being basically useless anyway), and weapon training (which is a nice bonus but, again, insufficient), and you get some of the weapon training bonuses back in the form of Payback.

    In exchange, you get the ability to deny one enemy a round their full attack action in exchange for 1) being able to hit them flat-footed; and 2) using an immediate action. That seems like a pretty nice gain for a small investment. Is it huge? No. But it's nice.



    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    You are not completely off base but the biggest issues are that you can't combine these together. Only getting one is not sufficient to change its tier. Getting the important abilities of mobile fighter (mobility), tactician (skills), unbreakable (defenses), an possibly brawler (disruption and control) would make the fighter decent if you could get them all at once.
    I think your standard for tier 4 is too high. Dungeoncrasher alone brought fighters up to tier 4 in the original tier system, which did only little to boost their mobility, almost nothing to booth their disruption and control, and absolutely nothing to boost their skills or defenses. Fighters are really close to tier 4 as-is; a small jump in action economy or mobility is probably sufficient to make them competent at their one job, which is all tier 4 really needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    ...a feat that makes it so they don't leave rage when unconscious...
    Note that dropping out of rage when you lose consciousness is actually a Pathfinder nerf to Barbs (a significant one at that), and the feat in question restores them to 3.5 functionality rather than giving them anything new.

    I'm undecided on Summoner. It seems they should be T2 - D&D being D&D, summoning things is just that good - but not sure if that pushes them over the wall.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Note that dropping out of rage when you lose consciousness is actually a Pathfinder nerf to Barbs (a significant one at that), and the feat in question restores them to 3.5 functionality rather than giving them anything new.

    I'm undecided on Summoner. It seems they should be T2 - D&D being D&D, summoning things is just that good - but not sure if that pushes them over the wall.
    The Ultimate magic Archetypes seal it's T2 spot. It was a decent second-line caster; now summoners can be a nasty frontliner, swarmer, and skill-monkey.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Retech View Post
    If you are like Treantmonk and you really like Summon Monster spells, imo summoners are tier one and will continue to improve as they add more monsters to summon monster.
    They got a too limited spell selection, to be T1
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    But, and this has been pointed out before, summoning stuff gives you access to many further spells! Just summon something that can cast the spell you need. Done.
    Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    But, and this has been pointed out before, summoning stuff gives you access to many further spells! Just summon something that can cast the spell you need. Done.
    I'm not sure. Reading the descriptions of the creatures you could summon on PFSRD it seems to me that you could get access just to 7th level spells through summoning or Wish. So while I could agree that the Summoner is a powerful class, earning it a spot in the T2 line, I doubt one could put it in T1 because it lacks sheer flexibility: you could break a game, but not in so many ways like a full spellcaster.
    Last edited by Engine; 2011-09-08 at 05:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    But, and this has been pointed out before, summoning stuff gives you access to many further spells! Just summon something that can cast the spell you need. Done.
    Wouldn't that be true also for Sorcerers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Wouldn't that be true also for Sorcerers?
    Good point.
    Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Alright i'll brace for impact here,

    can someone explain tiers to me? i assume its a system for making a well rounded balanced group but like what the difference between a tier 1 to a tier 5? if you have a link i can info binge on, fantastic!

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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Ah right, that link is better than the one I was about to post.

    <snipped>

    edit:
    Basically T1 means "Can do anything, up to and including breaking the game in a multitude of ways", and T5 means "Is barely decent at what it's supposed to do, let alone at other things". The other Tiers fill the gradient between those points.
    The actual lower extreme is T6, "Not even any good at what it's supposed to do", but this is rarely relevant in play.
    Last edited by Firechanter; 2011-09-08 at 09:25 AM.
    Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    ah ha!! got it.

    so I'm tier 2, sorceress. interesting. now to info binge on that link.

    (half read, explains why i struggled as a rogue in 3.5 though i did managed to get some complex battle plans to work but thats nothing to do with character stats)
    Last edited by Elixia; 2011-09-08 at 09:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Synthesist should be Tier 1.

    The Synthesist is majorly broken:
    - Gets lots of spells, alot of the good ones before the wizard. Like haste on level 4.
    - Have the evolution surge spell, which allows for more or less instant adaption to any situation.
    - Have more attacks than most, and all at full BAB. (Presuming you use same primary attack)
    - Has an AC that goes through the roof, even more with Barskin, which he can cast himself.
    - Good saves, don't have to waste attribute points on physical stats
    - Really good HP, combo of Eidolon and own.
    - High strength and can be large from level 7, and therefore pretty good damage.
    - Can get inbuild flight early
    - Evasion

    Played with a party where one made a Synthesist, and one played a druid. The druid tried his best making the wildest character. The synthesist wasted several feats on RPG things. Still when it came to combat, about 70% of everything killed by the party was killed by the synthesist.

    This was in the Carrion Crown campaign, heard a similar tale from a friend in the Kingmaker campaign.

    The only downsides to the synthesist is bad touch AC, and a weakness against dismisal/banishment, against which he has an pretty good Will save.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    If there's a Witch (t1), Inquisitor (t3), Cavalier (t5? Really?), Ninja (t5), and a Gunslinger cohort (t5), what kinds of encounters might challenge the entire party but not overwhelm them?
    Part of the idea of the Tier System is to impart the knowledge that, all else being equal, that party may be a Bad Idea. Which isn't to say it can't work, but it's going to be very, very difficult for a DM to challenge the high-tiers without leaving the low-tiers useless. Especially if he's trying to avoid This Looks Like a Job for Aquaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The only thing that really held it back from T3 in 3.5 was being too weak in combat; this weakness has been tackled in PF in four key ways:

    - Lots, lots more critters vulnerable to SA
    - Bonus fighter feats much earlier (2 instead of 11)
    - More base feats overall
    - Skill consolidation, letting you be a "savvy-talky" rogue and have tons of points to spare for the more combat-applicable feats like Tumble, Balance, Escape Artist and UMD.

    Combine all of the above with the fact that their out of combat utility is unchanged. In fact, if anything it's increased due to the Talents that let Rogues gain magical abilities of their own. So I definitely think they've made it to T3 now.
    While this is true, I don't think it's enough. Sneak Attack has also been nerfed in some subtle ways, and Paizo seems to have the idea that letting the Rogue get a full-attack worth of Sneak Attack on a regular basis is a bad thing. Also, I'm not aware of any trivial ways of getting movement+full-attack on a single-classed Rogue, PF or not. This was a major problem for the 3.5 Rogue; has Pathfinder solved it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    I haven't tested it myself, but so far I read in several sources (forum threads etc) that the PF Fighter had moved up to T4. This is the first time I read the improvements don't upgrade him from T5.

    Granted, my biggest beef with the PF Fighter is that they didn't give him anything except _more_ (static) combat bonuses, so he still can't do anything _but_ fighting. So the question is, does that qualify for "doing one thing quite well", or is its combat ability still "not all that well"?
    Then you're reading the wrong threads; everyone whose opinion on the matter I trust agrees that Paizo did barely anything with the Fighter. As you note, the changes only give him static numerical bonuses: the Fighters problems were never in the numbers. The 3.5 Fighter can achieve plenty of very-high numbers. It's the lack of options and abilities that places him in his tier, and Paizo hasn't addressed that to my knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Enigma View Post
    Pretty much this. The increased spells known unquestionably make Sorcerers more powerful and flexible - a lot more. What they don't have, and what IMO keeps them in Tier 2, is the possibility to change out their options to fit the situation. A sorcerer can't, for example, use divination spells to know what's coming and then swap around his spells to be prepared for it - whatever they pick, they're stuck with.
    I'm not familiar enough with the spell lists, but certainly on a hypothetical level, if a Sorcerer has enough spells known to simply know everything he'd ever want to cast (yes, even then), then he's pretty obviously be Tier 1 – and at the top of it. I think an argument along these lines certainly could be made.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    There's this seemingly innocuous spell, Paragon Surge that gives you a feat you qualify for for minutes/level. It is a half elf spell, but says "ask your DM" if you are of another race and want to cast it. For the feat, you choose Improved Eldritch Heritage, choosing the 9th level blodline power from the arcane bloodline: You add a sorc/wiz spell to your spells known. This means a 11th level half elf (or human) caster can choose the best spell for the situation in every situation. That's tier 1. The spell is not on the bard's, oracle's, inquisitor's or summoner's list (the other spontaneous casters), but what are wands for if not this?

    So there. From level 11, all casters can be tier 1, in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    So with a specific spell-race-feat combination a sorcerer has unparalleled out of combat versatility(using two actions for your optimal spell is usually not worth it). That is a tier one option, but it's also a highly specific combination, pun-pun doesn't make paladins tier 1.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manrata View Post
    Synthesist should be Tier 1.

    The Synthesist is majorly broken:
    Umm.
    No, that is not how Tiers work.
    Tiers are measures of Power and Flexibility, both in and out of Combat.
    Summoners/Eidolons are great In-combat, less so out of Combat.

    And while they do get _some_ 8th or 9th equivalent spells, they do NOT get a good variety of them, nor do they get a lot of them. And Summoner Spells are VERY Summon/Buff focused. If you can do it with a Summoned creature GREAT! If not then you are out of luck.
    Wizards can cast ANY spell EVER from the Wiz/Sorc list.
    Sorcerers can cast ANY spell EVER from the Wiz/Sorc list (but have limited Known).
    Summoners can cast a FRACTION of the Wiz/Sorc list (and also have limited Known).

    And they are extremely poor Skill-wise as well.
    They only get 2 Skills/level, and have no reason to boost INT super high.
    And yes, a Synthesist can Surge the Skilled Evolution onto himself for a quick +8. This is massive at low levels, fairly Ho-Hum at high levels, moreso because you won't have the base level of Skill points, and you are MUCH less likely to have other Gear/Feat boosts to it.
    So at the higher levels, where the Tier-ranking is focused on, Summoner/Synthesist is VERY lacking.

    They are High Tier 3/Low Tier 2.
    [retired]

    Horribly out of date guide goes here:
    Oradin Guide

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post

    While this is true, I don't think it's enough. Sneak Attack has also been nerfed in some subtle ways, and Paizo seems to have the idea that letting the Rogue get a full-attack worth of Sneak Attack on a regular basis is a bad thing. Also, I'm not aware of any trivial ways of getting movement+full-attack on a single-classed Rogue, PF or not. This was a major problem for the 3.5 Rogue; has Pathfinder solved it?
    True, but they gave stealth boosts like items.

    1) Decoy Ring is Mislead at will (Mislead casts Greater Invisibility and a illusion of you, ring's G Invis is only a few rounds before you have to activate again though)
    You activate the ring with Withdraw action (which doesn't require you to be near enemy to start by RAW).
    2) Ninja archetype can go invis (as spell) as Swift action (later upgrades to Greater version)

    Sadly, they also nerfed flasks (can't apply sneak to them in PF), so no sneak attack touch attacks. The splash effect was just extra.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    True, but they gave stealth boosts like items.

    1) Decoy Ring is Mislead at will (Mislead casts Greater Invisibility and a illusion of you, ring's G Invis is only a few rounds before you have to activate again though)
    You activate the ring with Withdraw action (which doesn't require you to be near enemy to start by RAW).
    2) Ninja archetype can go invis (as spell) as Swift action (later upgrades to Greater version)

    Sadly, they also nerfed flasks (can't apply sneak to them in PF), so no sneak attack touch attacks. The splash effect was just extra.
    But what does that do for their mobility?

    Also, invisibility as the spell is almost useless to a Rogue in combat. See my earlier point about Paizo feeling that a Rogue getting a full Sneak Attack routinely was a bad thing. And the ring's even worse if it's activated as a standard action, which it does seem to be.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    But what does that do for their mobility?

    Also, invisibility as the spell is almost useless to a Rogue in combat. See my earlier point about Paizo feeling that a Rogue getting a full Sneak Attack routinely was a bad thing. And the ring's even worse if it's activated as a standard action, which it does seem to be.
    Hey, the ring's no worse than activating a standard to activate a scroll of G. Invis (it is just at will without a UMD check).

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