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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Witch hexes can cause some serious shenanigans when optimized properly; they're low T1, but still T1. The tier system isn't some crystal ball that magically describes every potential problem a DM might encounter with certain classes. That's why human sorcerers are T2, even though they are probably more of a problem for a DM than a T1 witch.
    Yeah, to some degree, the tiers break down hard on PF classes. In 3.5, it is pretty clear that a T1 wizard is more powerful and flexible than a T2 Sorcerer. They have bonus feats, are much better at item crafting, spells 1/2 level ahead, and access to a wider variety of I-Win buttons.

    In PF, the sorc also gets bonus feats. He is virtually tied in item crafting because you no longer need prereqs, and while the wizard may be able to memorize the correct I-win spell for the right opponents, the Human Sorcerer is much much more likely to have the winning spell for any situation, because he can now pick lots more of the best spells of his top 3 levels and use them at will. The only real advantage that the wiz retains is the spells 1/2 level earlier. I see the argument that T1 = flexible spell casting, and I get it, but when you reach the level where the tier 2 is actually likely to be stronger/more flexible than the T1 at low/mid op, it is a major breakdown in the system.

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    A Pathfinder Human Sorcerer, even with the Favored Class bonus spells, is still tier 2. It's a higher tier 2, but can't change his spells every day like a Wizard, nor does it have a theoretically infinite repertoire.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Paladins. They're tier 3 now. Pathfinder gave them a whole lot of love.

    -They're no longer MAD(fighter+CHA is not too burdensome, WIS can now bugger off).
    -Pathfinder smite is a far superior ability(ignore DR and AC boost), especially in a world where the overall damage cap tends to be lower(no uberchargers).
    -IMMUNITY TO COMPULSIONS, ending the risk of your awesomeness being used against the party.
    -Weapon bond opens up a whole new range of options. Fighting treants? Flaming weapon. Need to take prisoners? Merciful weapon. Incorporeals? Ghost touch.
    -Lay on hands does more healing overall, and as a swift action, making them one of the few classes with viable combat healing.
    -Mercies makes it easy for them to help with debuffs. Your barbarian buddy will love you. 'I raged and now I'm tired!' 'No you aren't.'
    -No longer limited to just one fighting style. Paladins are more than mounted chargers, now they can be archers, TWF, and more.

    And their spell list was never bad. They're much better casters too, now that they actually focus on their casting stat.

    Pathfinder also gives them more flexibility in terms of skills. They don't really need to dump INT quite so badly now that WIS is unecessary, and of course there is the favored class bonus, though that usually goes to more HP rather than more skill points(but then, the archeradin doesn't need quite so much HP...).

    So I think they make it to tier 3. There aren't many situation that you can throw at a mid level group that a paladin can do nothing about. Spells, more skill flexibility, better combat options, more combat options.
    To anyone who thought Gandalf was dead: Don't you know, a wizard is never late?

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    And if the above weren't enough, then you've got the archetypes that get summon monster/planar ally to give you even more utility.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    ThiagoMartell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    It has been said before, but Fighters are t4. One trick ponies, but their trick works. Same goes for Gunslinger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    But what does that do for their mobility?

    Also, invisibility as the spell is almost useless to a Rogue in combat. See my earlier point about Paizo feeling that a Rogue getting a full Sneak Attack routinely was a bad thing. And the ring's even worse if it's activated as a standard action, which it does seem to be.
    Scout's Charge + Vulpine Pounce ot Claw Pounce gets you a full sneak attack plus movement. I'm sure there are other ways.

    Also, why isn't greater invisibility or vanishing trick considered an option?
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-11-27 at 11:27 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Answerer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    It has been said before, but Fighters are t4. One trick ponies, but their trick works.
    I assume, then, that you disagree with the Fighter's tier in 3.5? Because Pathfinder didn't change anything meaningful about them that I am aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Scout's Charge + Vulpine Pounce ot Claw Pounce gets you a full sneak attack plus movement. I'm sure there are other ways.
    I'm not taking either Vulpine or Claw Pounce seriously, not with those prereqs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Also, why isn't greater invisibility or vanishing trick considered an option?
    Who said they're not? I was only responding to the specific options that were suggested. Mostly, I'm trying to figure out what Pathfinder has done differently that would justify increasing their tier relative to 3.5.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)

    I still don't understand why monks, a melee fighting class with hardly any other notable abilities (In and outside of combat), still doesn't get full BAB.

    A Class that only does what it's supposed to be good at medicorely is a sad Tier 4 in my books.
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