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2013-01-18, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
FTFY
The specific classes don't matter as much as (a) the challenges they face and (b) the gap between them. A group like that might struggle through a premade or challenge campaign, but if the DM is tailoring the obstacles to them they will do just fine. Nobody is really in a position to totally outshine anyone else.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-01-18, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Stillwater
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2013-01-18, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2013-01-18, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Aside from the fact that you can't phrase it without mentioning game mechanics (if you say something like "do not attempt to resist as I oppress your will", that leaves no definited value of what counts as resisting; a Will save might not count as intentional defiance, and there are other things like spell resistance that the target might not know they don't possess, and might thus refrain from trying unsuccessfully to use), it's pretty much the same as ordering the creature to kill itself. A magical compulsion is used to impress a creature into service, not oblivion. If the spell is capable of causing the target's death, it should generally be written so explicitly.
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2013-01-18, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Premade campaign, the Tearing of the Weave trilogy to be specific (Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, and Anauroch: Empire of Shade). The adventures are run pretty much unchanged, at least not tailored to our group. We are doing pretty well actually.
Is this a specific build?
He has taken Imperious Command and of course has max ranks in Intimidate. If thats all you need to get an Imperious Command Samurai, then he is one.Last edited by Zombimode; 2013-01-18 at 11:56 AM.
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2013-01-18, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
There are other parts to demoralize optimization. Primary among them is an armor enchantment called fearsome from the same book as imperious command that is pretty much a given buy as soon as you have the wealth for it. For 5000 gp you get a +5 to intimidate checks and changes demoralization to only take a move action. Oh it also gives you armor spikes if you don't already have them so you can save that precious 50 gp.
Last edited by nyarlathotep; 2013-01-18 at 12:49 PM.
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2013-01-18, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- NYC
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2013-01-18, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2013-01-19, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
It can't possibly be a conscious effort to resist, because if someone casts a Charm on you and you fail the save, you don't know that you made one. It must be reflexive, automatically triggered by the targeting of your mind with hostile magic; it's essentially an immune system, and while you might be able to do things like intentionally exposing yourself to more germs, you can't actually make yourself succumb to a disease. Your body won't allow it, and the same goes for Will saves - they're autonomic defenses with which your non-conscious components will protect the whole of your self even from you.
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2013-01-19, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Charm Person is also Enchantment and Mind-affecting. You don't know you failed the save because *Your mind is altered by enchantment magic*, so you forget you made one.
There's a section in the rules detailing voluntarilly failing a save, and another about lowering your spell resistance. Creatures know about these things in-universe.
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2013-01-19, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Well it's not "voluntary" if you're ordered to do it and have no choice about complying (as opposed to complying to avoid an undesired consequence, as with non-magical orders), so it still doesn't work.
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2013-01-19, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Now you're just quibbling. "Voluntary" in that context means that you have the option to do it (and therefore that you can be compelled to take that option, magically or otherwise), not that you are unable to be compelled to do it. All you have to do is order a monster to allow a particular spell to work on it, and it will.
The broken things here are Gate and the power people use to swap bodies, not the option to choose not to resist a spell. If you really want to argue against it working by RAW, though, I'd point out that a Gated monster remains gated even after you swap bodies with it, and it's ambiguous what happens when the Gate effect ends -- is it its spirit that the Gate spell affixes to, meaning that it disappears along with your old body? Is it its body, meaning that you disappear, new body and all, and end up in whatever extradimensional place you yoinked it from when you cast Gate? Is it both, meaning that its spirit disappears back to wherever it came from, leaving your old body an empty shell, even as the body you swapped for vanishes from around you, leaving you as a disembodied soul?
My understanding is that if a Gated creature comes with a sword, that sword vanishes when the spell ends; if you cut off a Gated creature's arm, that arm goes away along with the rest of it. It seems logical that even if you swap bodies with it, the body that arrived via Gate is still going to go away when the Gate spell expired. The only question is whether it takes your soul with it or leaves it behind.
It's one of those things that seems obvious until you think about it. The game doesn't actually have rules for where magical effects are "affixed" to following a body-swap; there's a totally legitimate argument to be made that after you swap bodies with the Gated monster, you are now its slave for the remainder of the spell.Last edited by Aquillion; 2013-01-19 at 04:58 AM.
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2013-01-19, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
No there isn't. Since spellcasting travels with the mind and not the body in every single example of body switching, it's quite obvious that the caster is determined by means of soul and not body.
Regardless, you don't need to keep that body for more than ten minutes, at which point you can let it go.
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2013-01-20, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
No, that is never what "voluntary" means. I would suggest checking a dictionary, but it just came up in a PM conversation that I apparently do not believe all dictionaries can be trusted to give the actual use-meanings of words as they are spoken by language-users. Regardless, "voluntary" means "taken by one's own choice"; if a machine is attached to your arm which forcibly raises it without your own choice, then you did not "voluntarily" raise your arm.
All you have to do is order a monster to allow a particular spell to work on it, and it will.
The broken things here are Gate and the power people use to swap bodies, not the option to choose not to resist a spell.
My understanding is that if a Gated creature comes with a sword, that sword vanishes when the spell ends; if you cut off a Gated creature's arm, that arm goes away along with the rest of it. It seems logical that even if you swap bodies with it, the body that arrived via Gate is still going to go away when the Gate spell expired. The only question is whether it takes your soul with it or leaves it behind.
It's one of those things that seems obvious until you think about it. The game doesn't actually have rules for where magical effects are "affixed" to following a body-swap.
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2013-01-20, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Quite simple, actually:
Originally Posted by Gate
* Though you'll probably want to add a 9th level version with a comparable hit dice cap to Gate.
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2013-01-20, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Last edited by nyarlathotep; 2013-01-20 at 01:13 PM.
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2013-01-21, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Cure spells are not capable of harming you (unless you're undead). Presumably your subconscious mind, or whatever else governs your instinctive resistances, can understand this, sensing that the incoming influence is Harmless and not resisting it. You can save against such effects, but only intentionally. Whereas any Harmful effect always gets a save unless you voluntarily decline it, and no compulsion can interfere with that "voluntary" part.
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2013-01-21, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
No, every time you get affected by a spell, regardless of whether it's harmless or not, you get a save if one is allowed, so you choose to be affected by cure spells or buffs or whatever, there's nothing involuntary about that. Unless you have Spellcraft or some other spell identification ability, you have no idea what anyone is casting on you till its effect kicks in. When you choose not to save, it's generally because you trust the caster, whether that's due to them being an ally and prior experience telling you that not resisting has been beneficial in the past or you've been dominated or compelled by your new 'friend' to allow some effect to target you unresisted, because they wouldn't harm you, now would they? That's just what friends do! How that works out in the end is something else entirely.
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2013-01-21, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
False premise. According to the SRD, you DO know that you made a save, though you don't know why.
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Also the spellcraft rules allow you to identify a spell after rolling a saving throw, implying that you are aware on some level that you made one.
I don't believe there's anything in the Charm Person spell description that contradicts this, so any part of your argument based on the premise that you don't know you made a saving throw is faulty.
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2013-01-21, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Actually, an unconscious creature does not get a will save. At all. Ever.
I would hope you deny unconscious and unable-to-react character their reflex saves as well.
Whether it hurts you is irrelevant. You have to either consciously defend yourself, or consciously let down your guard.
And beig able to tell on a primal level the spell won't hurt you is bunkum, since you can't identify the spell that way.
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2013-01-21, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
I disagree - I don't see being willing as the same as not being allowed to make will saves. Consider that it would make no sense for a spell like Nightmare to have a will save if being asleep made it so you couldn't roll one.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-01-21, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2013-01-21, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Citation needed.
Edit: To further expound on the issue, the srd says that unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but "willing" has a very specific meaning concerning spells which is NOT if they get a saving throw or not.
To Nyarlathotep: I don't see how that breaks the rules. Only the origin point of the spell has to be within range. If my fireball's range is 500 feet and I cast it at 500 feet, it still affects targets at 520feet.Last edited by JBento; 2013-01-21 at 11:01 AM.
Morituri nolumus morit - We who are about to die... don't want to
"BUT, LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPERMAN." - Death, "Reaperman"
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2013-01-21, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
From the SRD: "(harmless) The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires." By default, you *don't* save unless you "desire" to. It doesn't say "The spell is usually beneficial, so a targeted creature usually declines its saving throw", which would be the language to use if saving throws were like spell resistance in this respect.
Unless you have Spellcraft or some other spell identification ability, you have no idea what anyone is casting on you till its effect kicks in.
When you choose not to save, it's generally because you trust the caster, whether that's due to them being an ally and prior experience telling you that not resisting has been beneficial in the past
or you've been dominated or compelled by your new 'friend' to allow some effect to target you unresisted, because they wouldn't harm you, now would they? That's just what friends do!
The Reflex save is another of those aspects of the game which is sloppily-constructed. The only place where it makes a whit of sense is with Gaze attacks. Eye movement should be governed by Reflex; dodging a fireball/lightning bolt/dragon breath/etc. should not, unless it's to allow you an immediate-action move out of the blasted area.
Whether it hurts you is irrelevant. You have to either consciously defend yourself, or consciously let down your guard.
Or, possibly, all of you are taking the rules more literally than the devs wanted you to...if they didn't apply them consistently, maybe that's because they didn't want players to do so either.
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2013-01-21, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Torres Novas, PT
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Unfortunately, from the same srd, in the Saving Throws section: "Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect."
Not "you can choose to make a saving throw," but "you get a saving throw." I *THINK* there was a book that expounded on the saving throws whys and wherefores, but I can't recall which and I'm AFB during the week. Logic would dictate the PHB2, Complete Mage, or Complete Arcane, but logic was never WotC's strong suit. Perhaps there's something stated more clearly in the Rules Compendium, if anyone got that handy?Morituri nolumus morit - We who are about to die... don't want to
"BUT, LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPERMAN." - Death, "Reaperman"
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2013-01-21, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
... Did they remove the Thread Necromancy rules? Because I've seen some people running around with shovels and a lot of empty holes in the ground.
Last edited by Asheram; 2013-01-21 at 12:31 PM.
Boats are like nuts, the outside is hard but the inside is usually good to eat.
And remember, things can always get worse.
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2013-01-21, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
From what I've seen, handbooks are a bit of a grey area - probably because locking them and forcing the creators to repost them from scratch simply because someone had a question would be onerous. I know for instance that I've gotten permission to update my old handbooks past the window.
I don't know if that applies to anyone posting in them or just the creator but I'm sure Glyphstone or one of the other mods can provide clarification.
EDIT: I just took a closer look at your avatar - is that a barbarian hugging a troll?Last edited by Psyren; 2013-01-21 at 03:55 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-01-21, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Nope.
A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.Last edited by tyckspoon; 2013-01-21 at 04:22 PM.
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2013-01-21, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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- Scandinavia
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2013-01-21, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- The Great White North
Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
Now, is this (supposed to be) a Truenamers only thread, or does it cover the Truenaming Prestige classes as well?
Because honestly, I just plain don't get some of them.