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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Now, is this (supposed to be) a Truenamers only thread, or does it cover the Truenaming Prestige classes as well?

    Because honestly, I just plain don't get some of them.
    They all suffer from the same problem, i.e. they don't advance truenaming (no utterance/lexicon progression.) Even the "theurgic" ones (Fiendbinder and Brimstone Speaker) flubbed this.

    Kyeudo's fix overhauled them and even added some new ones; definitely give it a look if you haven't already.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Now, is this (supposed to be) a Truenamers only thread, or does it cover the Truenaming Prestige classes as well?

    Because honestly, I just plain don't get some of them.
    It started out as a Truenamer handbook, but I'm sure Zaq wouldn't mind if we discuss the PrC's. And to anyone confused on the forum rules, they are located here.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2013-01-21 at 06:21 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They all suffer from the same problem, i.e. they don't advance truenaming (no utterance/lexicon progression.) Even the "theurgic" ones (Fiendbinder and Brimstone Speaker) flubbed this.

    Kyeudo's fix overhauled them and even added some new ones; definitely give it a look if you haven't already.
    If it's got the Psyren stamp of approval, I'll definitely give it a look-see.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    It started out as a Truenamer handbook, but I'm sure Zaq wouldn't mind if we discuss the PrC's. And to anyone confused on the rules, they are located here.
    Oh no, I understand the mechanics - that's the problem. The designers didn't. It's more in frustration that they plain don't work.

    Take the Bereft, for example. If it's something that you 'pick up', why the harshness of entry prerequisites? Either 26 skill points (13 bougth cross-class) or thirteen and a valuable feat.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Kellus also has a pretty solid Truenaming system. My understanding is that it's less closely tied to the original system than Kyeudo's (I've never used Kyeudo's), but since the original system is so bad I don't mind it.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Your range is 500 ft? The dude standing 501 feet away can't be touched. The PHB spells are pretty good about keeping this straight, but you can find a number of spells in other books that don't work correctly because the author forgot how Range and Area interact.
    Huh. And now I know. It makes no sense, but now i know.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Take the Bereft, for example. If it's something that you 'pick up', why the harshness of entry prerequisites? Either 26 skill points (13 bougth cross-class) or thirteen and a valuable feat.
    If you are going to 'pick up' that class you will need to max out your truenaming check. That being said, the class has only a HD 10+ and neutral prereq. since 3,7k gp doesn't matter much at that level and three languages is pretty easy. If you play a roguish build i.e., you might want to take 3 levels of factotum and able learner anyways.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Oh no, I understand the mechanics - that's the problem. The designers didn't. It's more in frustration that they plain don't work.
    I meant the forum rules. I've edited my earlier post to reflect that.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I'm usually a big proponent of playing 3.5 "as-is"; that is to say, with as little homebrew as possible. This isn't because I have any ire for homebrewers, and a lot of the stuff on these forums is excellently made; the issue is just that allowing a little homebrew is a slippery slope to allowing a lot of it, and at some point you're better off just playing GURPS or another more flexible system.

    In the case of the Truenamer, however, they've given you an excellent, flavorful, interesting idea that apparently had the utter bare minimum of effort put into it before publication. As someone who has played several midlevel Trunamers 'successfully', you almost need homebrew if you want the class to be playable with other decently made characters.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    It started out as a Truenamer handbook, but I'm sure Zaq wouldn't mind if we discuss the PrC's. And to anyone confused on the forum rules, they are located here.
    It's true, I don't mind. There's really not much to discuss that I didn't cover, but hey, I'm certainly not about to stifle discussion on this sort of thing.

    The fact that high-level utterances aren't especially amazeballs does kind of make the loss of progression a little easier to swallow, but the problem is that the Truenaming PrCs don't give you anything worthwhile in return. They're all hamstrung in one way or another: Acolyte of the Ego and Fiendbinder have hideous action economy, Bereft has a save DC formula that is beyond weaksauce, Disciple of the Word is way too limited in uses per day . . . Brimstone Speaker doesn't have any specific failures beyond being wildly inefficient, I suppose, but that doesn't actually make it good. And on top of that, of course, none of the abilities you get from them are really worth the investment on a good day. All of them take way too many levels to do what they're trying to do, either in terms of levels you spend in the PrC, levels you spend qualifying for the PrC, or both. They're pretty much just disappointing start to finish.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    They're pretty much just disappointing start to finish.
    And in a running theme, that's rather like the truenamer.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    And in a running theme, that's rather like the truenamer.
    Yes and no. The Truenamer has a few bright spots that we can fish out and polish. There's very little in the Truenaming PrCs that I feel is worth the effort to really focus on. (I say very little, but skimming over them, I can't think of anything. I'm just leaving open the possibility of something catching my eye later on.)
    Last edited by Zaq; 2013-01-22 at 01:21 AM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Reading Bereft, I really don't think it was actually supposed to require 10 levels of truenamer to enter. It reads like it should be like a Fighter 4/Truenamer 1 build.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Has this thread being going on for 16 months?!

    I guess no matter how bad (Or perhaps because of) there is always some interest in the Truenamer
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I am surprised that this wasn't mentioned if you can get your DM to allow it ( one of those RAW/RAI things IIRC ). UMD to emulate a horse for the horseshoes of flame in savage species. Expensive pieces of **** for an untyped +10 int and +6 cha for 7 hours/use and 3 uses per day. Big help for truenamer.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    I am surprised that this wasn't mentioned if you can get your DM to allow it ( one of those RAW/RAI things IIRC ). UMD to emulate a horse for the horseshoes of flame in savage species. Expensive pieces of **** for an untyped +10 int and +6 cha for 7 hours/use and 3 uses per day. Big help for truenamer.
    Except that UMD just makes the item THINK you're a horse, it doesn't actually make you one. You'd still need to get two more feet and then you could go through the lovely, lovely process of getting pieces of iron NAILED to your feet.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by JBento View Post
    Except that UMD just makes the item THINK you're a horse, it doesn't actually make you one. You'd still need to get two more feet and then you could go through the lovely, lovely process of getting pieces of iron NAILED to your feet.
    Still nice for a Centaur truenamer though...and of course he needs the help, having four HD that do nothing for his truenaming other than increase the DCs.

    Are there any quadrupeds with minimal LA/RHD? The best idea I have offhand is being a Drider whose built-in casting is Cleric and who qualifies early as a Brimstone Speaker. He gets to keep four of his feet unshod....
    Last edited by willpell; 2013-01-22 at 09:29 AM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Still nice for a Centaur truenamer though...and of course he needs the help, having four HD that do nothing for his truenaming other than increase the DCs.

    Are there any quadrupeds with minimal LA/RHD? The best idea I have offhand is being a Drider whose built-in casting is Cleric and who qualifies early as a Brimstone Speaker. He gets to keep four of his feet unshod....
    Man, if you're playing a Centaur truenamer, between 4 RHD, a +2 LA and a -2 to Intelligence, I'll GIVE you those +10 for free (assuming you promise to stick to truenamer and not go into, say, wizard wonderland) and you're STILL going to suck more than a black hole.

    Driders are iffy for horseshoes, UMD or not, merely because I don't think you can actually shod a spider's feet (and if you did, you'd run into the other problem of having the shoes nailed on).
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Tauric template (Monster Manual II) on some low-HD Animal. The only thing in the SRD that's even remotely legal for the template at 1 RHD is the Baboon, though; YMMV on whether that qualifies as "quadrupedal" and it's going to look damn silly besides. And it still doesn't have hooves. At 2 RHD, there are ponies; at 3 RHD, there are the horses.

    I have no idea if reindeer can wear horseshoes, but caribou are also 2 RHD (Frostburn).

    Side note: Penguins have "Hit Dice: 1/2 d8 (2)" – is a half-hit die even a thing?

    Anyway, I searched the "Outside" books and the five Monster Manuals, and those are all I could come up with. So it looks like it's going to be hard, if not impossible, to come away with less than 2 RHD.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    A Bariaur (PLH) Truenamer would only have +1 LA and no RHD, but still have four hooves to wear these with. They're pretty good for their LA in general I'd say; Outsider type, Darkvision, SR = 11+HD etc.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by JBento View Post
    Except that UMD just makes the item THINK you're a horse, it doesn't actually make you one. You'd still need to get two more feet and then you could go through the lovely, lovely process of getting pieces of iron NAILED to your feet.
    And there is going through the using of MIC rules on tacking the enchantment onto similar equipment like boots.
    Last edited by animewatcha; 2013-01-22 at 10:20 AM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Side note: Penguins have "Hit Dice: 1/2 d8 (2)" – is a half-hit die even a thing?
    Definitely. Lizards have a half-die (so do pixies and grigs, I think); toads have a quarter-die. It's treated as 1 for most purposes, only having lower results. Though I would have thought penguins were a bit more massive than iguanas and such. Certainly an Emperor penguin ought to have a full d8, if not more than one. And if you can have penguins, why not go all the way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JBento View Post
    Driders are iffy for horseshoes, UMD or not, merely because I don't think you can actually shod a spider's feet (and if you did, you'd run into the other problem of having the shoes nailed on).
    Of course they're iffy; that was the whole point of me bringing them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    And there is going through the using of MIC rules on tacking the enchantment onto similar equipment like boots.
    I'd definitely veto that as DM; shoes for a mount and shoes for a person are two very different things, and shouldn't be interchangeable for magic enchantments, any more than a human can get levels in Beholder Mage by putting out one of his normal human eyes.
    Last edited by willpell; 2013-01-22 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    I'd definitely veto that as DM; shoes for a mount and shoes for a person are two very different things, and shouldn't be interchangeable for magic enchantments, any more than a human can get levels in Beholder Mage by putting out one of his normal human eyes.
    You can also just pay double to make the item slotless.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    You can also just pay double to make the item slotless.
    But using the rules to do the things they're designed to do is a 'trick' and therefore morally wrong as well as being debased and filthy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    You can also just pay double to make the item slotless.
    Hm...well I'd have a harder time claiming that's entirely unfair, but my suspicion is that all magic items designed for your horse are underpriced for what they do because they don't normally go on a PC directly, and so I'd probably charge more than double the list price (on the assumption that the list price is discounted and the discount no longer applies). Of course, I haven't read the specific item in question; if it's meant for centaurs in the first place then I probably wouldn't fight terribly hard to keep it from being applied to baryaurs or whatnot (if anything I might decide that centaurs in my game use baryaur stats, as I consider baryaurs kinda weaksauce and think centaurs are too awesome to be rendered unplayable by excessive ECL)

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    But using the rules to do the things they're designed to do is a 'trick' and therefore morally wrong as well as being debased and filthy.
    How is it a trick when a truenamer has to optimize his main shtick just to be able to do what his class is for on a basic basis.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    How is it a trick when a truenamer has to optimize his main shtick just to be able to do what his class is for on a basic basis.
    Blue is sarcasm, and in this case it proved to be prophetic sarcasm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Blue is sarcasm, and in this case it proved to be prophetic sarcasm.
    Clearly, your blue was not blue enough. You should check the TO boards, see if there's a handbook for optimising the light spectrum.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Blue is sarcasm, and in this case it proved to be prophetic sarcasm.
    Any chance that you edited it or something? Cause when I was making the post, it was actually black. Wouldn't have posted if it was blue.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    Any chance that you edited it or something? Cause when I was making the post, it was actually black. Wouldn't have posted if it was blue.
    Forum doesn't say I edited it, but I won't rule out the chance of a graphical glitch either from the forum to you or from your monitor (or, as sometimes happens to me, those times when your eyes just randomly decided that EVERYTHING IS BLACK NOW KTHXBAI, which I'm certain we can all agree is highly inconvenient).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    How is it a trick when a truenamer has to optimize his main shtick just to be able to do what his class is for on a basic basis.
    The correct solution to that issue is NOT to optimize out the wazoo to make the Truenamer functional (when the same optimization on a Wizard would make the already stupidly powerful even sicker). It is to fix the Truenamer, accepting that its RAW version is unusable and figuring out what constitutes worthwhile homebrew.

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