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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    The correct solution to that issue is NOT to optimize out the wazoo to make the Truenamer functional (when the same optimization on a Wizard would make the already stupidly powerful even sicker). It is to fix the Truenamer, accepting that its RAW version is unusable and figuring out what constitutes worthwhile homebrew.
    Agreed completely. I understand that it makes people feel clever when they can contort one part of RAW to overcome horrible deficiencies in another, but I just find it far more elegant to fix the problem rather than create more. You start allowing unrestricted access to slotless items for truenamers and next thing you know the druid is breaking the game even wider open. Or that Psion running around with a +30 competence bonus item to Lucid Dreaming that lets him assassinate the the BBEG in the Dreamheart from another plane.

    And in Truenamer's case, it doesn't even take any effort; there are two brilliant fixes out there for it that just plain work. I personally prefer Kyeudo's because you could drop it in ToM without a single seam showing, but Kellus' works well too. The work has been done for you. You can't even claim laziness as an excuse for relying on cheese like this, save being too lazy to read a pdf.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2013-01-22 at 12:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    A Bariaur (PLH) Truenamer would only have +1 LA and no RHD, but still have four hooves to wear these with. They're pretty good for their LA in general I'd say; Outsider type, Darkvision, SR = 11+HD etc.
    I forget, does BoED supercede PLH?

    If so, this looks less appealing because the BoED version has LA+2, and 3 RHD

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Essence_of_War View Post
    I forget, does BoED supercede PLH?

    If so, this looks less appealing because the BoED version has LA+2, and 3 RHD
    From what I can find, PLH (that's Planar handbook, right?) is a 2004 product, while BoED is a 2003 one, so, assuming you have access to both, PLH SHOULD take precedence. Also, BoED is an awful, awful book that should never have been written as is, so when ANY book presents information conflicting with it, you should probably go with the other book.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    If there were a conflict, Planar Handbook would trump as it is more recent. However, it includes the following sidebar:

    Bariaurs and Exalted Bariaurs

    The Bariaurs included in this book are the most common form of the race (also described in Manual of the Planes.) The larger, more powerful form of Bariaurs detailed in Book of Exalted Deeds are generally known as "Exalted Bariaurs" due to their closer connection to the powers of the celestial planes.
    So there is no need to supersede anything - both types of Bariaur exist without conflict.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2013-01-22 at 12:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    I have no idea if reindeer can wear horseshoes, but caribou are also 2 RHD (Frostburn).

    Side note: Penguins have "Hit Dice: 1/2 d8 (2)" – is a half-hit die even a thing?
    reindeer feet are very different from horse feet.

    however, since magic boots can fit onto a human's foot, a dwarf's foot, a catfolk's foot, or a yuan-ti's snake tail, I'd say just let your horseshoes work on any 4 legged roughly horselike animal. honestly, I don't think I'd stop someone from using the otherwise worthless emulate race function on UMD to enjoy them. they're very expensive, and you have to reliably hit a 35 3 times a day. if you invest that much of your characters' resources in a boost to int and cha with a little flight and a ton of money and your foot slot, you deserve it
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If there were a conflict, Planar Handbook would trump as it is more recent. However, it includes the following sidebar:

    So there is no need to supersede anything - both types of Bariaur exist without conflict.
    Reading between the lines here is hilarious: "The authors of Book of Exalted Deeds were morons who thought it was appropriate to co-opt a time-honored planar race for their travesty, and we, as Wizards of the Coast employees, are not allowed to call them out on it, so just... ignore that one, if you really insist it can be some rare super-bariaur."

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Well, if we can have "Lesser Aasimar" why not "Greater Bariaurs?"

    It's not as if Elysium cares about LA after all, so they can afford to soup up however many specimens dwell there.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Oh sure, they can exist (though really, Lesser Aasimarr are not a good precedent to try to use). It's more that the quoted text reads as a veiled "ugh, those idiots" to me.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    You can also just pay double to make the item slotless.
    An alternate and less cheesy suggestion, make the humanoid re-spec'ed version take up both the hand and feet slots. In addition to the UMD check it's not a completely ridiculous option.

    I'd say that and doubling* the cost would be appropriate to drop the UMD check or quadruple the listed cost to just make it a set of boots.

    *(removing the racial restriction would increase the cost by 30% and the unusual slotting for a mental ability boost would mean another 50% markup. Together that's got the cost up to 195% of the listed price, and doubling just makes it neater.)
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2013-01-22 at 11:02 PM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You start allowing unrestricted access to slotless items for truenamers and next thing you know the druid is breaking the game even wider open.
    I did patch this issue by allowing Item Familiars for non-spellcaster characters only, with the Truenamer not counted as a caster despite its role. (I haven't decided whether Binder should count as a non-caster; certainly an IF would help Binders and Warblades a lot, but it's still nothing compared to letting full casters have them.) The justification is that an actual spellcaster has too much magical energy in himself for an item in his possession to be capable of "waking up"; his own "radiation" suppresses the growth of an IF's "soul" and potential to achieve consciousness. (At which point the term Item "Familiar" is probably wrong, given that this doesn't happen to traditional familiars.)

    Or that Psion running around with a +30 competence bonus item to Lucid Dreaming that lets him assassinate the the BBEG in the Dreamheart from another plane.
    Lucid Dreaming is a completely optional skill, and even if you allow it in general, you're free to ban the "drag target into the Dreamheart where he can be killed" usage while letting the more cosmetic applications of the skill remain. It wasn't very well-written, but it's also set to "off" by default so that isn't much of a problem.

    And in Truenamer's case, it doesn't even take any effort; there are two brilliant fixes out there for it that just plain work. I personally prefer Kyeudo's because you could drop it in ToM without a single seam showing, but Kellus' works well too. The work has been done for you. You can't even claim laziness as an excuse for relying on cheese like this, save being too lazy to read a pdf.
    Can you summarize the differences between the two fixes? Also I have at least one of them on my subscription list already, but it still wouldn't suck if you could provide links to both for easy comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well, if we can have "Lesser Aasimar" why not "Greater Bariaurs?"
    Well you're not actually supposed to have both Lesser and standard Aasimars; in Races of Faerun it states that the "lesser drow" and the like are intended to replace their counterparts if you don't like LA in your games.
    Last edited by willpell; 2013-01-22 at 11:29 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by JBento View Post
    Driders are iffy for horseshoes, UMD or not, merely because I don't think you can actually shod a spider's feet (and if you did, you'd run into the other problem of having the shoes nailed on).
    Does it actually say how you're required to wear the horseshoes? "Hooves" aren't a standard item slot. If it just says "a horse wearing these shoes" or something similarly vague, you can wear them in a pile on your head, use UMD to emulate being a horse, and presto, you've satisfied all the requirements. Or you could loop one on each limb like bracelets and anklets, but that's not as amusingly goofy.

    (Note: I do not actually advocate trying this if you're playing with people who are physically present and who have large heavy objects in reach.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2013-01-23 at 01:14 AM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Can you summarize the differences between the two fixes? Also I have at least one of them on my subscription list already, but it still wouldn't suck if you could provide links to both for easy comparison.
    Let's see...

    Kellus' 'fix' is less of an actual fix, and more of a rewrite from the ground up - he basically made something completely new and simply called it Truenaming. He makes very significant alterations; you can follow the link to read the whole thing but I've summarized some below.

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    - Making all utterances Ex (and move actions.) They aren't subject to saves, SR, AoO, nothing. They also affect any creature within line of sight regardless of actual range. He did create a stat called "name resistance" that lets some creatures resist truespeak, and "namelessness" to make some immune.

    - Abolishing the Laws completely.

    - Introducing a concept called "Absolute Limit" based on your levels of Truenamer and Cha modifier that sets a hard limit on what you can affect with Utterances. This limit is compared to a target's current HP rather than their HD/CR (it was modeled on the Power Word spells), so you end up with weaker monsters being more susceptible to Truespeak than healthy/stronger ones. Against monsters with more HP than your absolute limit, Utterances are impossible no matter your check. You can augment this limit by boosting your Truespeak DC, but similar to psionic augmentation, you can't boost by more than your truenamer level. (Willing creatures ignore this limit; great for buffing allies but invites some familiar abuse regarding willing targets that we have seen before.)

    - Creating a broader category for truespeaking called vocalizations, of which utterances are now one subcategory. The other two are recitations, and a brand new one called incantations. As in ToM, Recitations are self-only utterances; only now, they function more like ToB stances, giving you a certain buff for as long as you want, but disabling your ability to Truespeak while active (and also requiring your swift action to maintain each round.) Incantations are abilities you can use to affect objects or the terrain (akin to the Crafted Tool and Perfected Map lexicons from the first system) and are a way for you to do something when facing a foe outside your absolute limit.

    - making Truespeak DCs specific to the utterance vocalization being spoken rather than based on the target (similar to epic spells each having a unique Spellcraft DC.) Two vocalizations of the same level may have different base DCs based on the power of what each is doing. Individual vocalizations may also have their own augments, which let you raise the Truespeak DC to add or strengthen effects - this is still subject to the augmentation cap mentioned above.


    I don't know if there were other Truenamer fixes before Kellus' but his was among the first to gain popularity. Thus it has been suggested most often simply by being around longer.

    Though I freely acknowledge that it works far better in practice than WotC's Truenamer did, I'm not a big fan of a lot of his changes - either from a fluff or crunch standpoint. For instance, "Namelessness" makes no sense to me - in the language of the universe, everything that exists must have a Name of some kind, even one that may be unusable by or unknown to mortals. Absolute Limit was based around the assumption that players would optimize the heck out of their truespeak check; it prevents that, but it leaves players at higher levels unable to affect monsters with utterances at all until they're severely wounded, then when they are, bypassing every single defense they have. It's far too swingy for my tastes. And without the Laws, it doesn't feel or play the same - for instance, if you can make the check, you can spam the same utterance ad infinitum, which forced Kellus to make some changes like abolishing healing Utterances, robbing the game of yet another non-divine healing class.


    Kyeudo's fix, meanwhile, kept all the original flavor and mechanics of the class intact; it has pretty much everything that was in ToM, just with the math actually working now. With the Laws in place to control spammability, effects like healing and restoration are easier to balance. And he invented better items and feats, such as Inflections (metamagic) and truenaming consumables (e.g. bottled echos) that other classes could use or that could gradually introduce Truenaming to an ongoing campaign.

    So while I respect the efforts of both posters, there's a reason I tout Kyeudo's a little more than Kellus'.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Sounds like I would prefer Kyuedo's as well, and I believe he's the one I have. Thanks.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    That was really eloquently written, Psyren, and I look forward to quoting you in the future. What I've always told people is a bit shorter; Kyeudo wrote a fix, and Kellus made a new class that he based off ideas he got from the original. Very different things, in the end.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Unfortunately it seems MediaFire doesn't like me, so I do not in fact have Kyuedo's fix.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Unfortunately it seems MediaFire doesn't like me, so I do not in fact have Kyuedo's fix.
    You can find Kyeudo's fix here
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by only1doug View Post
    You can find Kyeudo's fix here
    Don't be an ass. The latest version is indeed only in pdf and hosted on mediafire.

    Willpell, if you want to read it, I can send it to you - PM me your e-mail.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I recently finished playing a a Truenamer in a campaign that lasted from 3rd level to 15th. We went through the twighlight tomb mod and then through the tearing of the weave trilogy. A full diary of it can be found HERE.

    First, I would strongly advise anyone interested in playing one to not do so unless you have a DM that is willing to work with you and do some minor home brew. Or at the very least allow the item familiar feat. That alone does wonders, as you can actually improve your character like any other class, instead of always playing catch up. The second important thing, for me anyways, was a homebrew feat that allowed you to target multiple team mates with an utterance. Speak to the massess comes far to late, and how often is a party actually composed of a single race? By being able to target the entire party at once, you can generally up your usefulness to the party by a lot. Then of course there are some no brainer things to add, like Maximize utterance.

    My suggestions would be;

    Focused Linguist
    Player can invest skill points each level into this feat. For every 3 skill points invested, the player recieves a +1 bonus to truenaming checks. This bonus cannot exceed his maximum rank in True Speech. * Essentially Item Familiar, minus all the objectional stuff that make DM's uneasy.

    Ritual of Association
    By researching a group of individuals, the true namer can link them together by creating a True Name for the group. The cost of the Ritual is the same as researching a personal truename. If the membership of the group changes, an additional week of research must be undergone to include them, though at no additional cost. Once the ritual is complete, the True Namer can now target the group with an utterance as they would with an idividual. The base DC for this is equal to the highest CR in the group, +2 for each additional target. The laws of Sequence and Resistance apply normally, and the utterance can still be enhanced by feats. This counts as one use of the utterance for the law of Sequence. * This will allow you to buff your entire party at once, which really ramps up your usefullness.

    With these two some what minor fixes, I find that the True Namer can hold his own and make a meaningful contribution to the party. Without them, or something like them, the class becomes an excercise in sadism. Zaq does a good job of covering that, so I won't go into detail. Overall, I had a hard time defining my character into a certain niche. Some times I am party support, some times debuffer, some times problem solver, and in some encounters even the primary damage dealer. There were a few times were me being a true namer saved the day. There were also a few times where I was completely useless. But for the most part I was zero drag on party resources, and contributed in some way. That being said, I was also playing a Focused Conjurer/Master Specialist/Thaumaturgist in another campaign, and the difference between the two classes was marked. There is really no comparison between the two. If your only incentive is the free gate spell, I would say that the price of 19 levels of True Namer isn't worth it. If you choose to play a True Namer, it's a labor of love... or sadism. Either way, power isn't the payoff.

    Some things I would like to add are some magic items that I found useful. This is ignoring the obvious buys like Amulets of the Silver tongue, belts of battle, headbands of intellect, etc...

    1. Eternal Wand of Detect Magic: It's funny, but the True Namer has no real way of detecting magic until it gets Analyze item. This saves time and allows you to narrow your searches down. Plus the eternal versions are only marginaly more expensive than the normal ones. A very nice buy, particularly if you are the party "Caster". Buy it early, and it will keep it's usefullness your entire career.

    2. Eternal Wand of Healthful rest: This is up to DM interpretation, but our DM ruled that fast healing counts as natural healing. If this is the case, then it doubles your healing ability, and makes words of nurturing a great pre-fight buff. This is particularly great if you are the only source of healing the party has.

    3. Ring of Silent Spells: an inexpensive ring from the MIC, that allows you to trigger a silence spell centered on you. Since a true namer can overcome silence, this can help in situations where stealth is important. In addition it is a tactical option where you can stand next to an enemy caster and trigger it, shutting them down while ony mildly inconvieniencing yourself. Situational? Sure, but a nice trinket to have for 2k. There are probably even cheaper ways of getting silence, but it was cheap utility and I like it.

    4. Harrow Rod: Another MIC find. 3 times a day it can shoot a 9d6 cone of acid. It's not that expensive, almost makes reversed words of nurturing obsolete in the damage department, and solves a big problem. That problem is golems. Golems have an imunity to magic that is defined as "A spell resistance that cannot be over come". The True Namer can raise his DC and automaticaly overcome SR. It's a bit of Immovable object vs Irresitable Force arguement. However, my DM ruled that I could not overcome a golems SR. Normally I would just focus on bufing the melee's in the party, but latter on the party got caster heavy. This item made me some what useful against them. It was kind of sad that a 14K item out damages my True Namer until 17th level, but we didn't choose to play a true namer for the big booms.

    5. Luck Blade & Mantle of Second Chances: Re-rolls are nice for a True Namer, though to tell the truth I used them to re-roll saves for the most part.

    Anyways, good luck to everyone who wants to play one. It's not as bad as it is made out to be, but it is only a great experience if you really make it one.
    Last edited by Bonzai; 2013-01-24 at 03:56 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    LOL...I just checked out the part of TOM that describes Truenaming magic items, and I'm beginning to think the entire chapter was written under protest.

    Scrolls, staves, and wands are created to target a specific truename. This means that a scroll might be crafted to work against Zbavra the Witch-Queen, or a beneficial wand might have Tordek as the target. The scroll targeting Zbavra might prove worthless if the Truespeak check failed to encompass her CR. Tordek might become so powerful that the wand no longer can affect him
    Right there in the book, they tell you that Truenaming "might be worthless". That is just precious.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    LOL...I just checked out the part of TOM that describes Truenaming magic items, and I'm beginning to think the entire chapter was written under protest.

    Right there in the book, they tell you that Truenaming "might be worthless". That is just precious.
    It could have been written by the same person that wrote the monsters' statblocks, who may have been the only person who had a clue of how the system worked; the truename monsters all have huge racial bonuses to Truespeak so that they might have a chance at affecting level-appropriate players.
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-01-24 at 10:25 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzai View Post
    My suggestions would be;

    Ritual of Association
    By researching a group of individuals, the true namer can link them together by creating a True Name for the group. The cost of the Ritual is the same as researching a personal truename. If the membership of the group changes, an additional week of research must be undergone to include them, though at no additional cost. Once the ritual is complete, the True Namer can now target the group with an utterance as they would with an idividual. The base DC for this is equal to the highest CR in the group, +2 for each additional target. The laws of Sequence and Resistance apply normally, and the utterance can still be enhanced by feats. This counts as one use of the utterance for the law of Sequence. * This will allow you to buff your entire party at once, which really ramps up your usefullness.
    I've got to say, this is a really neat idea. Definitely stealing it.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzai View Post
    Ritual of Association
    By researching a group of individuals, the true namer can link them together by creating a True Name for the group. The cost of the Ritual is the same as researching a personal truename. If the membership of the group changes, an additional week of research must be undergone to include them, though at no additional cost. Once the ritual is complete, the True Namer can now target the group with an utterance as they would with an idividual. The base DC for this is equal to the highest CR in the group, +2 for each additional target. The laws of Sequence and Resistance apply normally, and the utterance can still be enhanced by feats. This counts as one use of the utterance for the law of Sequence.
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Research "everyone currently alive in the kingdom next door under 60"?
    For the looks of it: Sure, if you can hit that DC 9004 Truespeak check.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    For the looks of it: Sure, if you can hit that DC 9004 Truespeak check.
    That extra +2 just means you need assistants to Aid Another you. Open a truenaming school, press-gang graduates into helping you, and eventually you'll get there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    That extra +2 just means you need assistants to Aid Another you. Open a truenaming school, press-gang graduates into helping you, and eventually you'll get there.
    the downside is that you have to add a week of research everytime anyone is born or moves there... maybe less than ideal?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by only1doug View Post
    the downside is that you have to add a week of research everytime anyone is born or moves there... maybe less than ideal?
    That's why you'll note my stated parameters specifically include only people in the kingdom at the time. It also excludes old people that are likely to die off before you finish research. Really, you could just hit the 18-50 age group and take out pretty much anyone capable of putting up a fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I disagree - I don't see being willing as the same as not being allowed to make will saves. Consider that it would make no sense for a spell like Nightmare to have a will save if being asleep made it so you couldn't roll one.
    Being a willing target means you forsake your saving throw. Otherwise, see cure light wounds discussion.

    Cheesy? Yes. We had a campaign once that started with "okay, so this PC cleric of Bane has spent the entire backstory using mindrape on you guys while you slept so you all are loyal to him..." and it took four sessions of taking notes on his shameful behavior to get my Viking werewolf priest to disavow him. So the very idea of using sleep to bypass will saves fills me with vague rage. But hey, so does a lot of D20 D&D stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBento View Post
    Citation needed.
    Rules compendium. You know, the stuff they wanted us to play with, instea of a dubiously legal website?

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    From the SRD: "(harmless) The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires." By default, you *don't* save unless you "desire" to. It doesn't say "The spell is usually beneficial, so a targeted creature usually declines its saving throw", which would be the language to use if saving throws were like spell resistance in this respect.
    Yes. Except without ranks in spell craft or having the guy say "I'm going to heal you" you cannot and do not know it is a harmless spell. It's some guy chanting in a lost rogue while gesturing, and then reaching for you with a hand aglow with blazing light. That could be cure light wounds, sure. Or it could be shocking grasp.

    The Reflex save is another of those aspects of the game which is sloppily-constructed. The only place where it makes a whit of sense is with Gaze attacks. Eye movement should be governed by Reflex; dodging a fireball/lightning bolt/dragon breath/etc. should not, unless it's to allow you an immediate-action move out of the blasted area.
    You're considered dynamic during your turn, which is a sliver of a round. Theoretically, at the conclusion of the round you should compile everything, and then play it all at once, in which case you you twisted around an arc of draconian lightning, shrugged up your hands to block your face from the fireball, and kept shuffling like a quarterback until you could sack your target.

    Otherwise you couldn't use Dex for AC, that's moving out Of the way. Or use a shield for that matter, as it's often interposing a metal wall, which would require an attack roll unless you press it to your side an leave it there.

    Perhaps with the nonsensical Spellcraft rules it does work that way, but it really, really shouldn't. Whether the spell is beneficial or harmful or not definitely SHOULD influence whether your body tries to fight it off; when the immune system attacks benign cells, the result is cancer, and the same should apply to whatever mystical defenses it possesses in a fantasy setting.
    But that is a house rule. The game doesn't assume a specific psychic/mystic immune system. It assumes your body can either evade or shrug off some effects, and your mind can power through others. Think about that. You literally deny inflict light wounds through application of faith. It's not a magic antibody, it is you denying the power of their god so vehemently it works. It's an active choice; an act of will.

    Or, possibly, all of you are taking the rules more literally than the devs wanted you to...if they didn't apply them consistently, maybe that's because they didn't want players to do so either.
    But for the sake of discussion that cannot be known. We have designers saying the system was designed to reward torturous precision and system mastery. We don't have designers saying anywhere that the rules shouldn't be taken literally (that would be World of Darkness) and we do have examples of how designers true to bed over backwards with the rules.

    When discussing the rules, you have to stick to them. Discussing I they are even valid at all is a good, but entirely separate discussion. Most people who argue RAW are much more reasonable when you remove that. But in order for the game to work, the rules have to mean the same thing to everyone. That is achieved by a very strict, literal reading of the rules.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2013-01-25 at 04:05 AM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Well I thought I should mention that I am now playing a truenamer in my campaign (red hand of doom in case you were wondering). You might remember (or more likely not but go back a page and look that post up) that I mentioned before here that I was excited to try out the truenamer I built. Then I built some other characters and laughed and laughed and laughed at how I thought I would want to play a trunamer over my shadow hand pixie swordsage or my wolf totem whirling frenzy mongrelfolk dragonborn lolthtouched mineral warrior barbarian. Even my saner builds made it look like a joke. Then comes the game day and since we had decided on it at the begining, everyone but me (being the most experienced player of the group and another was too new to try it) had been given the name of another person in the group and told to make a character for them. I had already made a character for someone but still had plenty of characters made, so I waited to see what everyone else had to decide what was the best fit for the group. In retrospect I really shouldn't have shown them my truenamer beforehand and pointed out just how much of a joke the mechanics around them were.

    We find out the party consits of a duskblade/fighter with a bunch of feats and an odd combo where he runs around the battlefield provoking opprotunity attacks and when the enemies miss him due to his high ac, he gets to make trip attempt against them with improved trip and a flail, a half-orc druid whos antisocialness boarders on a mental disorder who took the shapeshift varient to be slightly balanced, a lurk with a speed focus the ability to run up walls and a bunch of utility powers, a swordsage with a focus in desert wind who will eventually (like two levels or so) prestige class into master of the nine, and a totemist/swordsage who has insane trade offs to lower his speed but uses the blink dog meld bound to his totem to get around that (and we pray each session that the DM doesn't get the chance to target him with a dispel magic). So with that large group what role are they looking to fill? A healer. Who do they remeber can heal? My truenamer (I foolishly mentioned that out of combat healing was one of the few things he could do well). Do i have ANY other builds that can heal? Nope, looks like I forgot to take that into account with my other builds. And thus I am now playing a truenamer. Thus begin the golorious adventures of Vanier, the Illumian Truenamer, Huzzah . Overall though I'm having fun and the group isin't too optimized so my truenamer isin't getting pushed to the sidelines, and his healing did come in handy, especially with my truespeak check being high enough that I can heal people plenty of times per day (If anyones interested he has a +35 to his truespeak checks and WoN lesser and WoN moderate). Combat wise he actually isin't too bad (though I have no magic weapons or armor due to spending like 90% of my starting gear on an amulet of silvertounge +5 and a custom competence item ring of truespeak +10) using a composite bow a knowledge devotion to deal damage whenever he finds something he wants to hurt, but not so badly as to blow a reversed WoN moderate w/ mortalbane. Haven't really got the chance to use any of my other powers that much, though I do find that Hidden Knowledge gets used up fast as I make a lot of knowledge checks (what with wanting to know about the campaign world and storyline and combat-wise for knowledge devotion).

    Anyways to make a long story short and to get back to the main reason why I posted here, I remembered that Zaq said that anyone who got their DM to accept a masterwork item that was this handbook would get mentioned here. I managed to convince my DM to allow my character to use a masterwork tool which was a book titled; In the Begining Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers. Also if there's any interest in a journal about my adventures as a Truenamer I could make a journal for you folks to read, with any thoughts or ideas I get on truenaming (like currently I wish to try out when we have the chance, arguing to my DM that since I can use Utterances when unable to speak or make a sound I should be able to do so silently and thus make the reversed half of Hidden Truth useful, albiet with a 20% chance of failure) or how well each utterance is working for me, where it's best and where it's worst. Also there will probably a bit of stuff on the others too (like the "Old Man" who was mysteriously worked his way into all our characters backstorys, much to our DM chagrin), but it would mostly focus on my truenamer. Though anything I come across may be highly subjective as the DM will change monster stats and the like through play so this isin't going to be quite an exact, every detail kept runthrough of the Red Hand of Doom, though she mentioned she's going to cut back on that a bit (stupid Strength boosted to 26 mooks nearly annihilated us). Also thanks to everyone hear on all the useful tips you've given me (like that ring of silence thing that I'll definetly have to look into). It's really helped me show the true shining mediocrity of this class .
    Last edited by speeddemon; 2013-01-25 at 06:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Cheesy? Yes. We had a campaign once that started with "okay, so this PC cleric of Bane has spent the entire backstory using mindrape on you guys while you slept so you all are loyal to him..."
    That is genuinely horrifying. I hope you lot all bashed the cleric's player over the head with his own books.

    I do believe "no automatic willingness when unconscious" just went on my list of houserules. What are the potential downsides of this?

    Except without ranks in spell craft or having the guy say "I'm going to heal you" you cannot and do not know it is a harmless spell.
    I already indicated that I don't buy that CLW remains unknowable in any campaign where every town of reasonable size has a resident cleric. Spellcraft checks should only be required for a spell that you've never seen before.

    You're considered dynamic during your turn, which is a sliver of a round. Theoretically, at the conclusion of the round you should compile everything, and then play it all at once, in which case you you twisted around an arc of draconian lightning, shrugged up your hands to block your face from the fireball, and kept shuffling like a quarterback until you could sack your target.

    Otherwise you couldn't use Dex for AC, that's moving out Of the way. Or use a shield for that matter, as it's often interposing a metal wall, which would require an attack roll unless you press it to your side an leave it there.
    This metaphor doesn't work for me. If combat is dynamic, then it can't use an initiative count. If you're supposed to be swinging your sword around all the time, then how is that one attack each six seconds that actually gets rolled different? Dex to AC means dodging out of the way of a blow, but that shouldn't apply to a fireball targeted on your own square; you have nowhere to dodge to. If you can abstract to allow the rules to work, then why can't you abstract to allow what doesn't work under the rules? It makes no sense.

    But for the sake of discussion that cannot be known. We have designers saying the system was designed to reward torturous precision and system mastery. We don't have designers saying anywhere that the rules shouldn't be taken literally (that would be World of Darkness) and we do have examples of how designers true to bed over backwards with the rules.
    Perhaps, but I don't care. My decision to play D&D doesn't require me to submit to the idea that I should be punished for failure to learn the system arcana. I just want to kill dragons and throw fireballs, and this is the best-known game with which to do that, so I'm going to play it my way, even if that's more in line with my World of Darkness background.

  30. - Top - End - #360
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post

    Rules compendium. You know, the stuff they wanted us to play with, instea of a dubiously legal website? .
    Yes, but do you have an actual quote or page number? I ask because it's entirely possible that I'm missing it.

    I can find references to a sleeping creature being helpless, but not that it forfeits its saving throw. Unconscious creatures are "willing," but that only means that you can be targeted by spells saying "willing targets only," not that that you can't roll your save against... well, anything.

    Note that declining a saving throw requires the target to actively choose to do so. Pg 112, "A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a consequence."
    Morituri nolumus morit - We who are about to die... don't want to

    "BUT, LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPERMAN." - Death, "Reaperman"

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