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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    No, it's at the beginning of the thread, at the bottom of the Naughty Words section. It works like this:

    The transmutation has a duration. You turn it into thinaun, take a soul. The sword stops being thinaun when the duration wears off, but the sword isn't actually destroyed (the condition thinaun gives for releasing it). So what happens to the soul?
    Oh. Meh. Like the post says, that's not really a big deal; blocking resurrection at level 15 is hardly impossible, and honestly, it's just not a problem that comes up too frequently.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Oh. Meh. Like the post says, that's not really a big deal; blocking resurrection at level 15 is hardly impossible, and honestly, it's just not a problem that comes up too frequently.
    But blocking resurrection with no defined means of resolving that is relatively unique.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    So what happens to the soul?
    It possesses an old forum thread, bestowing upon it a foul semblance of life.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    It possesses an old forum thread, bestowing upon it a foul semblance of life.
    But it's such an excellent, Truenamer-y thread.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    As I understand it, the Moderators around here normally allow handbooks to be exempt from the Tread Necro rules, so joke about that don't really stand against something that can never die in the first place.
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Depending on how you interpret thinaun, you could argue that the soul is released when the weapon stops being thinaun, or you could argue that the soul is released whenever the weapon is destroyed, regardless of what it's made of at the time. I can't really see any interpretation that would result in the soul being completely unrecoverable, though.

    And the post that bumped this thread, turning your opponents' weapons into a useless material, was already included in the guide, under "Origami sword", in the "Naughty words" section.
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  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And the post that bumped this thread, turning your opponents' weapons into a useless material, was already included in the guide, under "Origami sword", in the "Naughty words" section.
    That raises the question of "can you make the opponent's sword something harmful"?

    Magma, sulfuric acid, boiling water, a snake... What are the limitations of the Utterance?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    That raises the question of "can you make the opponent's sword something harmful"?

    Magma, sulfuric acid, boiling water, a snake... What are the limitations of the Utterance?
    Well, since that stuff is pretty clearly intended to be used as a weapon, I don't see much RAW justification against it
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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I don't know if some one has already asked this but if I was to house rule that truespeak DC were 15+CR or CR/2 and ruled that the LoR and LoS didn't exist would the truenamer become overpowered, a useful class, or only slightly better

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    If you can easily make the checks and the laws don't exist it becomes pretty useful (infinte healing and damage that bypasses most defenses at level 1 for instance), just boring. All Truenamers would basically look the same.

    If you're going to houserule it at all I suggest you just use a fix, like Kyeudo's (see sig) that makes the DCs and Laws reasonable while still being meaningful limitations.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    A truenamer that can essentially use his powers at will is similar in power to a warlock or dragonfire adept. In some ways they have an advantage in action economy (easier access to quicken) but with some restrictions (such as being unable to spam a power until its effect is gone).

    They won't break the game (except for gate of course but that is their capstone) but they can be useful. It is just too bad that the amount of effort in a RAW truenamer to get there is so specific and extensive.

  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    As the guide points out, though -- even if you fix the Rules to an extent, you're left with the fact that most of the utterances are just terrible for their level. There are several that wouldn't be that useful even if you could spam them constantly at everyone at once with no real chance of failure. Worse, the balance is all over the place -- some suck completely like that and will always suck whatever you do to the Rules, some are just a bit underpowered and would require more thought to avoid breaking them, and a few are decent already and would break if you tweaked the Rules to make truenaming dramatically more powerful.

    At that point you might as well just trash the class entirely and invent something totally new -- there's not much salvageable here. Honestly, if I were remaking them I would just turn them into a Warlock variant with a different set of powers to choose from, loosely based on the few genuinely interesting or evocative current Truenaming abilities.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2013-12-04 at 07:06 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    So if you can only turn change the special material, why not kaorti resin? x4 crit, but it's exotic for that -4.
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  15. - Top - End - #435
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I recently attempted to optimize the Nosomatic Chirurgeon's pestilential touch ability. One of the things I came across while doing so were truenamer utterances. Since truenamer utterances are effectively at-will SLAs, they can be converted into spells by this ability. The real question though, is the ability to raise the effective spell level of an utterance by increasing the truespeak DC. Would it be possible to raise a 1st level utterance to 8th level (+28 DC on the truespeak check) and then lose a use of it (no truespeak check required) thereby casting mass inflict critical wounds via pestilential touch? If so, this could go along way towards making a playable truenamer, especially if you also take the mother cyst feat. Any thoughts?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtomjames View Post
    *snip*
    To quote the Tome of Magic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tome of Magic p. 196
    Only creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or higher have personal truenames.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tome of Magic p. 197
    You can find out someone's personal truename using a combination of mundane and magical research techniques.
    Therefore, truename research only applies to creatures with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.
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  17. - Top - End - #437
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Hmm... if you make the check, isn't Greater Knight's Puissance(+5 untyped) + Speak unto the Masses slightly better than Inspire Courage(+4 morale)? Also, the party members with Power Attack can take an additional -5 penalty, for a total of +15 per hit. Depends on how heavily buffed the party is, of course, but still...
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Hmm... if you make the check, isn't Greater Knight's Puissance(+5 untyped) + Speak unto the Masses slightly better than Inspire Courage(+4 morale)? Also, the party members with Power Attack can take an additional -5 penalty, for a total of +15 per hit. Depends on how heavily buffed the party is, of course, but still...
    It's mostly just a matter of whether the utterance is really on par with other level-appropriate options and whether it's worth your time and your actions. Especially given that without custom items or the dreaded item familiar, you've probably already picked most or all of the low-hanging fruit for boosting your TS check by the time level 6 LEM utterances come online, so your bonus might start being a little bit less beefy compared to your target DCs (relative to where you might have been in, say, the ECL 12-15ish range). Though that will vary by game.

    A +5/+5 to hit and damage isn't completely useless, but I don't think it's automatically so powerful that it's appropriate to make it as high level as it is. As stated in the guide itself, I'm not convinced that a relative increase of +3 hit and +5 damage is seventeen character levels more powerful than the level 1 version, you know?

    The comparison with Inspire Courage is kind of interesting. If it's not obvious by now, it's very difficult to gauge "equivalent optimization levels" between a Truenamer (especially a high-level Truenamer) and most other classes simply because of all of the extra work you have to put in to making the 'namer functional in the first place. They don't have a baseline level of competence to compare to, because an out-of-the-box 'namer with mundane gear and nothing specific like Paragnostic Assembly bonuses simply can't use their powers reliably (or, after a certain level, really at all). In contrast, basically every other class in the game has a "zero optimization" basepoint where you can get a rough idea of what they can do with just their basic class features and minimal/no item support, feat support, etc. No one really plays in those zero-op games, but it's just kind of a baseline rather than an actual expected power level. But we all know that player > build > class when it comes to gauging effectiveness, so we're trying to minimize the "player" and "build" variables, right? Right.

    Anyway, where I'm going with this is that a zero-op Bard will only be doing +4 morale hit/damage with IC, that's true. On the other hand, the zero-op Bard can simply do that with no chance of failure, while I absolutely do not trust a zero-op 'namer to pull off a Speak Unto the Masses utterance at the same ECL. Once you give the 'namer the resources necessary to reliably succeed, you have to ask how much effort you've put in and how much return on investment the Bard could get for the same amount of build currency (including, but not limited to, actual gold pieces).

    IC +4 at level 20 is totally unoptimized. Bare-bones stuff. Requires no input. It's not using any of the kajillion options you have to make IC into an absolute beast of a buff (DFI, Words of Creation, Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, all the other crazy nickel-and-dime bonuses that can be cheaply added, etc.), a fuller discussion of which can be easily found in the various Bard threads out there. If you're investing gold and feat support and stuff, you're going to be doing an awful lot more with IC than just +4 hit/damage. So you have to ask if it's really fair to compare Greater Knight's Puissance to IC +4. I feel like it kind of isn't. IC +4 costs less than GKP, and equalizing the costs gives IC a lot of room to get way beyond +4.

    My stance on GKP is a bit softer than it once was. The fact that you must have Speak Unto the Masses changes the calculus a bit, and a lot of the value of GKP is determined by what your table's actual dynamics look like, which is an enormous variable at the level range in question. Do attack rolls still really matter at this level range? They might or they might not, and that really depends on what kinds of baddies you're up against and what kinds of builds your fightin'-men (or equivalent folks who have decided to rely on making attack rolls) are rocking. I mean, by default, AC doesn't even really scale with level. WotC liked to slap natural armor on plenty of monsters, but there isn't really an inherent mechanic for armor to scale, and it's not universal. For the majority of PCs and characters/opponents whose strength comes from class levels rather than from piles of RHD, scaling AC is almost entirely a function of gold rather than anything else, you know?

    Again looking at that unrealistic but still useful zero-op baseline, take two identical Fighters with mundane gear at level 1 and at level 20. AC at level 1 is going to be approximately what, 16-19ish depending on DEX and on shield usage, versus a to-hit bonus of something on the order of +4ish to maybe +6ish depending on STR and feat choice. Scale up to 20 before making any magic item choices, and their respective to-hit bonuses will each have increased by a bare minimum of 19 points from BAB alone, while their AC bonuses will have, um, maybe gone up a point or two from DEX increases, bumping up from splint mail to full plate, and that's about it. Gold can be spent to increase AC, but gold spent on AC is gold not spent on, well, other stuff, including attacking-related bonuses.

    The point is that to-hit scales naturally while to-be-not-hit does no such thing, so there are some styles of play in which high-level warrior-types can safely just be assumed to hit with at least two of their attacks in a given round. Giving them another +5 to hit might be noticeable, but it's not a game-changer the way it would be in, say, 4e—in 4e, both to-hit and AC are pretty strictly governed by level, so a PC who isn't actively de-optimized fighting an at-level monster should still almost always have a to-hit score where getting a +5 to hit really drastically changes how likely they are to matter on a given turn.

    And you know what, it's possible to have a 3.5 environment where that's true as well! It's totally possible. But it's far from guaranteed. It kind of has to be a choice made by both the players and the GM to build characters and challenges that end up with attack and defense totals that are within shouting distance of each other.

    It's honestly really hard, maybe impossible, to say in a vacuum whether an ECL 18 party is going to, on average, need a +5 to hit more than they need, well, whatever else you'd spend your action on. Hitting is always better than missing, but when the numbers are so wild at high levels, whether your buff is really meaningful over the course of the battle is honestly hard to predict when I don't know what your party and your foes look like. Which is why the discussion in the guide proper ended up going the way it did. +5 might be really meaningful to you, but it might not, and I'm not super convinced that it's level-appropriate. If you really do have a party with lots of people who make attack rolls and many of those attack rolls are close enough to the target number that a +5 will noticeably increase your effectiveness, then yeah, GKP is actually probably one of your better choices at this level. If your fightin'-men (and women and other) are basically autohitting anyway, then it's not likely to be interesting enough to be worth your actions. The point about PA is well-taken, but we still have to ask if GKP is your best action. It might be. It might not be.

    I admit that the high-level utterances were discussed almost as much from the perspective of "do you care enough about these effects to make the necessary investment in Truenamer in order to access them?" as from the perspective of "you're already here, so here's what choices you need to make this level." (I did aim at both, but the feeling is stronger with the high-level utterances than with the low-level ones.) Because to kind of reiterate what I said in the guide, relatively few of these utterances are so bad that you'd never take them for free. But they aren't free. They cost levels in Truenamer (and of course their own opportunity cost of not picking other powers, but whatever). It's necessary to discuss both which utterances are best to pick when you're already taking that 12th or 15th or 18th level of Truenamer and whether these utterances are enough to make you want to take that 18th level.

    That is, I freely concede, hard to succinctly convey in a single guide of this format, and perhaps I'll see what I can do about making that more explicit the next time I have the free time to do a semi-major revision. But a lot of the reason why I tend to be kind of harsh on the high-level utterances isn't because they're bad on their own. It's because they're bad when compared to what a lot of other classes who aren't pure mundane non-initiating brutes/martials can bring to the table at the same ECL (again considering the level of legwork necessary to make a 'namer functional) and because the utterances strike me as being, well, not always on par with the challenges implied by the monsters that populate the relevant CR bracket.

    I think I said way more on this topic than you asked for, so I'll break off for now. To conclude, it's not likely to be terrible for you to take GKP, and there are situations where it's a perfectly respectable utterance. I just still don't think that it's guaranteed to be relevant, and I don't think that it's necessarily as strong as its level implies.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I mean, since you're taking 3 out of the 6 utterances at that level, there's no real pressure to not take GKP given the alternatives. What would you take in its place?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    I mean, since you're taking 3 out of the 6 utterances at that level, there's no real pressure to not take GKP given the alternatives. What would you take in its place?
    Yeah, that's half the problem with why high-level 'namers are disappointing. You kind of run out of good utterances. The remainder really aren't necessarily level-appropriate, like I was saying. Again, we've got the two ranking systems ("Is this better than your other utterance choices at this level?" and "Is this worth getting to this level for?") that I could try to differentiate more clearly between.

    It'll likely be quite a while before I have enough time and energy to do a revision of sufficient magnitude to really handle that consistently, but I would definitely try to be clearer about this sort of thing if I were to rewrite this. It'll probably happen eventually, but almost certainly not while I'm in school. (Apparently grad school is, like, hard or something! Who knew, right?)

    You're likely not shooting yourself in the foot if you choose GKP. I still don't think it's generally sufficiently exciting to feel good about taking it as my power, and I agree that you don't really have too many better options, but again, that's a big part of the problem.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Yeah, that's half the problem with why high-level 'namers are disappointing. You kind of run out of good utterances. The remainder really aren't necessarily level-appropriate, like I was saying. Again, we've got the two ranking systems ("Is this better than your other utterance choices at this level?" and "Is this worth getting to this level for?") that I could try to differentiate more clearly between.

    It'll likely be quite a while before I have enough time and energy to do a revision of sufficient magnitude to really handle that consistently, but I would definitely try to be clearer about this sort of thing if I were to rewrite this. It'll probably happen eventually, but almost certainly not while I'm in school. (Apparently grad school is, like, hard or something! Who knew, right?)

    You're likely not shooting yourself in the foot if you choose GKP. I still don't think it's generally sufficiently exciting to feel good about taking it as my power, and I agree that you don't really have too many better options, but again, that's a big part of the problem.
    Ah, so less of GKP being a strictly bad choice compared to the others, and more of all the choices, including but not limited to GKP, being kinda bad? Fair enough. Plus hey, it's better than Greater Word of Nurturing I guess - seriously, even an Ardent with the Life mantle or an Egoist with the True Healer ACF are miles ahead of that, and those are kinda worse than divine healing.
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  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I made a Truename gish for a level 9 campaign that didn't end up happening. The Truenamer handbook was extremely useful in helping develop the idea, (extremely grateful for your work, Zaq), so here are some thoughts specifically about making a Truenamer gish in case other people are interested or want to develop the idea further (couldn't find any gish builds online for it).

    My character was Human Truenamer 5/Fighter 1/Human Paragon 3. Lost two caster levels, but the bonus feats helped get Power Attack going by level 8 (when I hit 6 BAB) while still having some feats for Truenaming. Human Paragon gave a +2 stat bonus, as well as Jump as a class skill to get Leap Attack. If I thought the campaign was going to level 20, I'd change it to Truenamer 18/Fighter 2 to get Speak Unto Masses and a sixth-level utterance.

    Stats for a Truenamer gish seem to be CON > INT > STR, with DEX, WIS, and CHA being low priority.

    Utterances are really short in duration, you’re near-certainly going to have to be able to Quicken and preferably Extend utterances to do even decently.

    +1 Spell Storing weapon enchantment seems like a good option if your DM rules they can store utterances. While I went with a Power Attack build, maybe there’s a build to be made involving throwing weapons of Spell Storing with various Mortalbane-enhanced utterances.

    A 10’ reach weapon seems to be preferable for a Truenamer gish, to not have to worry about taking attacks while using utterances. Spiked Chain if you can swing an EWP or get Exoticist over Fighter.

    Didn't get to play the concept and see how it worked at the table (the campaign idea was dropped for another one entirely). Still, I’d be interested to see what other people could add to the concept of a Truenamer gish.

  23. - Top - End - #443
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    I made a Truename gish for a level 9 campaign that didn't end up happening. The Truenamer handbook was extremely useful in helping develop the idea, (extremely grateful for your work, Zaq), so here are some thoughts specifically about making a Truenamer gish in case other people are interested or want to develop the idea further (couldn't find any gish builds online for it).

    My character was Human Truenamer 5/Fighter 1/Human Paragon 3. Lost two caster levels, but the bonus feats helped get Power Attack going by level 8 (when I hit 6 BAB) while still having some feats for Truenaming. Human Paragon gave a +2 stat bonus, as well as Jump as a class skill to get Leap Attack. If I thought the campaign was going to level 20, I'd change it to Truenamer 18/Fighter 2 to get Speak Unto Masses and a sixth-level utterance.

    Stats for a Truenamer gish seem to be CON > INT > STR, with DEX, WIS, and CHA being low priority.

    Utterances are really short in duration, you’re near-certainly going to have to be able to Quicken and preferably Extend utterances to do even decently.

    +1 Spell Storing weapon enchantment seems like a good option if your DM rules they can store utterances. While I went with a Power Attack build, maybe there’s a build to be made involving throwing weapons of Spell Storing with various Mortalbane-enhanced utterances.

    A 10’ reach weapon seems to be preferable for a Truenamer gish, to not have to worry about taking attacks while using utterances. Spiked Chain if you can swing an EWP or get Exoticist over Fighter.

    Didn't get to play the concept and see how it worked at the table (the campaign idea was dropped for another one entirely). Still, I’d be interested to see what other people could add to the concept of a Truenamer gish.
    Interesting input. I'm glad the guide was useful to you! Shame that you didn't get to see the build in play, but that might have spared you some frustration.

    I don't think I'd have gone for CON as a primary stat, so that's kind of neat! It's justifiable (more HP is always nice to have), but since I lean towards the best defense being a good offense, I don't think I've ever had CON as my highest stat outside of a DFA. Doesn't mean it's the wrong choice, of course. Just means that it's a different perspective from where I usually go, but having different perspectives is valuable.

    I'm planning a semi-major revamp of the guide over this summer if all goes well (gotta survive 1.5 more weeks of grad school first, of course), and I do have a couple of gish builds planned to drop in the middle there. Including some weird ones. I'm also planning on including a section about "just how spell-like are we talking here?" that will address the possibility of game elements like spell-storing and other things that interact with generic "spells" in ways that could conceivably apply to SLAs. (There's gonna be a big "talk to your GM first" disclaimer on that section, don't worry.) Here's hoping that it all comes together the way I'm planning...
    Last edited by Zaq; 2019-04-26 at 01:35 AM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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  24. - Top - End - #444
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I owe this handbook a big thank you for helping me win a Junkyard Wars competition (entry here for anyone interested). Thank you for your handbook on Truenamers, Zaq.

    One feat that I think worth a brief discussion is "Mark of Avernus". The costs are steep (a prereq feat, being LE and a Devil) but if you can swing all that, you get the ability to use a spell-like ability as an immediate action once per encounter. Seems to work well with the many debuff and crowd control abilities that Truenamers get, but I'd be interested to see what other people make of it.

  25. - Top - End - #445
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I definitely never would have looked at that feat on my own just because of the prereqs. Neat find!

    I’m always flattered and gratified to get a citation like that, and I’m glad this was helpful to you!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  26. - Top - End - #446
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Just want to thank you Zaq for this topic. I`m playing a Truenamer in Dark Sun and you helped me a lot to understand all the little gimmicks we have to make this class work. Funny thing is, arcane magic in Dark Sun is troublesome so a Truenamer can actually be an alternative.

    The truenamer`s fluffy is cool, but the idea of playing a class that everyone thinks is unplayable and making it work is what closed the deal for me and you really helped with all the information. Thank you and it`s been fun to play this mess of a class!

  27. - Top - End - #447
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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  28. - Top - End - #448
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    So I made and won a build competition using both “Disciple of the Word” and the “Word Given Form” martial art: (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...1&postcount=30). I used this thread for reference to help with the build and wanted to leave a thank-you note. I also thought I’d leave some notes on the two in case people might find it useful.

    So, first up: the Martial Art “Word Given Form”. If you add the feats Combat Focus and Combat Defense you can change your Dodge target to a second opponent as an immediate action. You only get one immediate action per round, but you double the effectiveness of “Word Given Form”. That does bring up the total feats required to seven and increases MAD since you now need 13 WIS, so it’s going to be difficult to fit in a build. I think it’s well worth those two extra feats if you’re going for “Word Given Form” though.

    Disciple of the Word is strange class. You get a very limited amount of ability uses per day (unless you go heavy into Monk and/or pick up the feat “Extra Stunning”). The Truespeak DCs for your abilities are all over the place, but a check of 45 by level 20 will likely get you through any class check besides the free movement option at level 10, which requires a check of 50. If I were fitting this class into a build I’d probably drop out before level 10 though, there are easier and cheaper ways to get free movement.

    I also wouldn’t worry about the INT stat for a Disciple as long as I had enough skill points, unless I was really struggling to reach what I thought were the required Truespeak checks. Full ranks, an Amulet of Silver Tongue and a custom competence item are more than enough to meet the check requirements of the class by level 20.

    Last note about Disciple - it’s not clear if a Disciple is restricted to Monk-style gear to use its abilities in the same way Monks are. If you start using weapons or getting better armor you lose some Monk abilities that you probably had, but if you’re wielding, say, a greatsword, do you count as having Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist? If you don’t count, you don’t get your class features. Same with Evasion and using medium and heavy armor. Right now, I’m filing it as another “ask your DM” question that the Truenamer section has until told otherwise. or

    Separately, one feat recommendation I’d make is for “Keen Intellect” to be in the Truenamer feat list. You can likely only get it for a human Truenamer at level 1 due to region restrictions, but you get INT to Will saves (as well as for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival skills). I’d definitely consider it for my bonus human feat as a Truenamer.

  29. - Top - End - #449
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    if you’re wielding, say, a greatsword, do you count as having Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist? If you don’t count, you don’t get your class features.
    I see literally no reasons why you lose Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist wielding great sword. I was very very surprised to read such anxiety.
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  30. - Top - End - #450
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    I see literally no reasons why you lose Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist wielding great sword. I was very very surprised to read such anxiety.
    You lose your prestige class features if you don't have access to the feats you used to enter a class. Does having a weapon mean you don't have access to IAS and Stunning Fist? Honestly, I have no idea.

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