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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I don't have any hidden secrets on how to turn them into a good class.

    Chain gate solars! Hellz ya!

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Chain gate solars! Hellz ya!
    But...but...nooooo! Conjunctive Gate ruins everything forever, because it makes people forget all the other cool stuff a Truenamer can do.

    And trust me, they can do cool stuff, by RAW, without stinky bleu. Truenamer's are one of the few casters that can dish out damage/debuffing that ignores AC, Saves, and SR. While a Reversed Moderate Word of Nurturing may not do terribly impressive damage, it will always do damage. They also have the wonderful ability, as Zaq has said, to know everything about everything.

    I'm playing a Truenamer in a Red Hand of Doom campaign right now, and she's hit knowledge checks high enough to reveal half the plot to our group, and we're at Vrath Keep. In a group with a Focused Transmuter, a Beguiler with Mindsight, Red Knight Vindicator and a Druid she's holding her own in combat, because she's the only one that can cut through the SR of our Fiendish-templated opponents every single time.

    And Conjunctive Gate makes people ignore all of that awesomeness, which makes me sad.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    In a group with a Focused Transmuter, a Beguiler with Mindsight, Red Knight Vindicator and a Druid she's holding her own in combat, because she's the only one that can cut through the SR of our Fiendish-templated opponents every single time.
    The RKV's sword and the Druid's claws can't penetrate SR?
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The RKV's sword and the Druid's claws can't penetrate SR?
    Sssssh. You're ruining my super-well-thought-out point about spellcasting. Though, to be fair, the RKV and the Druid are new additions to the team, and yes, they will both dish out far superior DPS.
    Last edited by RaggedAngel; 2011-09-04 at 11:31 PM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    @ Zaq: Can we have a color coding scheme for the Utterances? (e.g. blue = good, red = trap, black = meh, other color = must-have etc.)


    @ Ragged: Of all the "cool things" the Truenamer can do, damage would probably be the last one I'd focus on. Level 1 FoM, refilling potions, "undispelling", and free metamagic for the team's casters would all take precedence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    To swing us back onto topic, I have a few ideas for some example builds for the thus-far unused post:

    1. The 'ideal' Truenamer; and Illumian member of the Paragnostic Assembly with an Item Familiar, and the 'optimal' selection of utterances.
    2. A "solid" Truenamer gish, busting out the Knowledge Devotion and... other things. Slightly less optimized for pure Truespeak, perhaps.
    3. A Truenamer who can do more than Truename; a Raptoran Dragonborn with Soulmelds or somesuch thing.
    4. A good gestalt build, or several. We could even bust out a Shadowcaster Truenamer, which would be awesome.
    Hmm. Quite possible. I'm a little wary of calling anything I make truly "ideal," but I understand what you're going for. This is definitely on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Wow, Zaq, you got awfully bitter between your original guide and this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steward View Post
    I really like the way you wrote this. I'm never, ever going to play this class but I love the bitterly sardonic tone you used. If you ever make an audio version of this, try and see if you can get Ricky Gervais to read it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    ...I... I kinda wonder if it makes me a bad person that I like this because of that...
    Heh, you know, I hadn't intended to be so bitter, but I'm certainly not prepared to deny it. Thanks, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    @ Zaq: Can we have a color coding scheme for the Utterances? (e.g. blue = good, red = trap, black = meh, other color = must-have etc.)


    @ Ragged: Of all the "cool things" the Truenamer can do, damage would probably be the last one I'd focus on. Level 1 FoM, refilling potions, "undispelling", and free metamagic for the team's casters would all take precedence.
    I had really strongly considered using a color-code system (probably the trap/meh/decent/good/great/mandatory scheme that's so popular on the WotC 4e forums), but the truth is, there's a lot of utterances that are really hard to rate. Some are simply party-dependent, some are really GM-dependent, some are level-dependent, and some just depend on what you want to do. For example, take the Word of Nurturing line. You'll almost surely want one or two of them, but which one or ones you want really depends on what level you're starting at, as well as what OTHER utterances you consider must-haves for your particular concept. That's not something that you can put a solid rating on. I think that I've done a decent job outlining which utterances are really top-notch and which utterances are garbage . . . and I've tried to present enough information to let the reader make an informed decision about the ones in between. (Besides, what color represents "this option isn't really good, but you might end up taking it anyway just because there's seriously nothing else at this level that's any better"?) If you really think it would help, I might be able to be convinced. (Thoughts from anyone else would also be welcomed. I do appreciate feedback.)
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I loved the previous guide, and I love this one. Awesome stuff, Zaq!

    That said, I mostly read it for amusement value
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Well if I ever lose my mind or start feeling masochistic I know where to some for knowledge. Excellent thread Zaq.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I just applied for a PbP on here with an illumian factotum/truenamer. If accepted, I'll post some thoughts here. If I get REAL crazy, I'll make a journal and post a link.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    D&D is made to be a flexible system... why not homebrew some extra Utterances that are decent to make them more balanced?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    D&D is made to be a flexible system... why not homebrew some extra Utterances that are decent to make them more balanced?
    Well, as Zaq will no doubt tell you, the Utterances themselves are only part of the problem; you still have to deal with the poor scaling of Truespeak, the poorly-executed Laws, the various rules inconsistencies, the miniscule class features and the dearth of useful PrCs.

    Having said that, there are already two great and widely-accepted Truenamer fixes in the Homebrew section, created by Kellus and Kyeudo respectively. Both include new utterances, as well as revisions to the existing ones, and address the various problems listed above in functional and creative ways. So rather than reinvent the wheel, I suggest leveraging one or both of those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    D&D is made to be a flexible system... why not homebrew some extra Utterances that are decent to make them more balanced?
    I have a collection of new utterances that I gathered/created, the link is in my Signature.

    Zaq actually helped to PEACH a couple of them.







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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpions__ View Post
    I have a collection of new utterances that I gathered/created, the link is in my Signature.

    Zaq actually helped to PEACH a couple of them.







    DM[F]R
    This is true, though I totally dropped the ball and really didn't help you with enough of them. (Um, sorry about that, by the way. If you're still interested, PM me and I'll try to be less flaky.)
    Last edited by Zaq; 2011-09-05 at 02:48 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I decided to ply a truenamer next time I get to play in my group instead of dming.

    I also am taking my vaccines so I don't lose the ability to taste ice cream when I do that.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Of course you would be the one to make this guide Zaq, but if not you than who?

    Anyway great job, I love to tone of it.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    This is true, though I totally dropped the ball and really didn't help you with enough of them. (Um, sorry about that, by the way. If you're still interested, PM me and I'll try to be less flaky.)
    Of course I'm interested, I think I'll clean them up a bit, and then PM you about them next week.








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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Dragonborn: (Races of the Dragon) Personally, I don't like dragonborn that much, but the breath weapon makes them useful in much the same way that an azurin would be. If your GM plays a high-powered game, combine them with raptorans for flight AND a breath weapon, but some games will find that to be [at least] mildly abusive.
    Just wanted to note something here... Dragonborn of Bahumat allows you to swap one of your existing feats for a dragonblood-only, 1st-level-only feat. There are only three of these, and one of them is kobold-only (Dragonwrought... yes, you *can* become Dragonwrought after 1st level), but this lets you swap one of your useless class-feature bonus feats for Dragon Tail (secondary natural weapon, or add Prehensile Tail from Savage Species for a third hand) or Dragon Wings (which puts you one feat away from a true flight speed).

    This is a great way for a Truenamer to swap Truename Research or a Bonus Recitation feat for something that might actually be useful. Taking the breath option and Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings lets you add both a breath weapon and flight on a race other than Raptoran.

    Also... Hengeyokai might be an interesting race. In animal form, they can still speak to other animals of their type. Sparrows have a better AC than Muckdwellers: +8 size, +6 Dex.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    So, I built a truenamer at ECL seven for a player of mine. After one play session, my group thought it was frigging awesome.

    See, making a working truenamer is not as hard as frequently made out. It basically involves picking decent spells, like any other limited choice caster, and boosting truespeaking. That's it.

    Now, granted, I may have gotten a static +41 to a level 6 truenamer, but that still gives him something like four uses of an utterance vs a CR 7 opponent before he even needs to roll(or use the skill boosting utterance to push it to +46), and of course, since he's using a variety of utterances, this is not really a problem at all.

    See, standard caster rules apply. A combat is only going to last a few rounds. Average of four combats a day. He has absolutely no trouble contributing for every round of every combat(plus a bit of out of combat fun).

    So...not really weak at all. And a *lot* of that optimization was pretty basic. Amulet of the Silver Tongue. Skill Focus: Truenaming. Good Int, maxed skills. Sure, I tossed in a little extra, and he's a level down due to going necropolitan, but a +30 or so is remarkably easy to pick up without significant knowledge.

    I'm going to say they should be a Tier 4. Possibly jumping to Tier 2 with optimization. No attack roll/No save/ability to ignore SR is not trivial at all.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Hmm... I've read and reread your original guide a few times and it's convinced me that I love the fluff for Truenaming (while the crunch is absolutely miserable and needs to die in a fire).

    I'm mostly a Pathfinder kinda guy, so I'm considering homebrewing a Truenamer-inspired class based on the Words of Power from Ultimate Magic.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I tend to measure the quality of a class by how many different books you need (outside of the book in which it was introduced) and how many house rules and homebrew recipes you need to make it effective. Part of the problem with this class is that it feels like the book in which was introduced doesn't really support it that well, and that a lot of the rules are so ambiguous that one interpretation can make it okay and another interpretation can make it frustrating. The fact that the game makers saw fit to make their casting as complicated as possible didn't really help; you really couldn't give this class to someone who wasn't a moderately good optimizer, could you?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post

    I'm going to say they should be a Tier 4. Possibly jumping to Tier 2 with optimization. No attack roll/No save/ability to ignore SR is not trivial at all.
    I can buy tier 4 (although without quite a lot of optimization, I'd still lean towards tier 5 simply because most utterances aren't that great). But tier 2? What utterances does a truenamer have that match up to sorcerer spells, or favored soul spells, or psion powers, or unlimited summoning? Especially at mid-to-high-levels, when their damage is outscaled by hit points and their legitimately useful effects (freedom of movement, solid fog) can be replicated or outclassed by anyone in tier 2.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    One thing you might consider is adding a house rules section, for some ideas to make them a little more playable. For example:

    -Instead of the Law of Sequence stating you can only have on instance of an utterance going at any given time, have it state that the DC for a Truespeak check goes up by 5 for every instance of that utterance you have going at the time. That's nothing to sneeze at, but especially for nova-esque fights or early in the day it can be overcome without too much work.

    -Give Truename Research the ability to let you guess at someone's personal truename by making a knowledge check as if you were identifying the creature as a standard action (for simplicity, use the same rules for affecting them with an utterance to set the DC). It would at least be useful, especially in boss-type fights where every +2 could come into play.

    -Set the DC of a truespeak check to 10+Creature's CR + 2xUtterance Level. Now the DC scales more reasonably, a first level Truenamer trying to affect a CR 1 monster would only have to beat a 13. Assuming 16 int, 4 ranks, and Skill Focus(Truespeak), he could do it on a 3 or better plus however much LoR he's accumulated by this point. A level 20 Truenamer trying to affect a CR 20 monster with a 6th level utterance would have to beat a 32... for a level 20 truenamer that's child's play (heck, for a level 6 that's no sweat). This still assumes you're hoarding bonuses, but even if you aren't going all out with the Paragnostic Assembly, custom items, and an Item Familiar you can still play a reasonable Truenamer.

    -There's a fairly ambitious Truenamer homebrew that adds a mess of new utterances. I'm not a big homebrew fan, but for those that are it's a good starting point.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    I can buy tier 4 (although without quite a lot of optimization, I'd still lean towards tier 5 simply because most utterances aren't that great). But tier 2? What utterances does a truenamer have that match up to sorcerer spells, or favored soul spells, or psion powers, or unlimited summoning? Especially at mid-to-high-levels, when their damage is outscaled by hit points and their legitimately useful effects (freedom of movement, solid fog) can be replicated or outclassed by anyone in tier 2.
    They're a solid limited list caster. At low levels, they require little to no optimization to be good, and at high levels, they get to gate for free. It is not an expectation of tier 2s that they will be able to break the game at every level.

    I'll admit it's on the low side of tier 2s, but at high op levels, ignoring defenses is pretty huge. The mailman isn't relevant because of damage numbers...it's relevant because it's difficult to stop. And even that still requires an attack roll. Now, I'm not to claim that a high op truenamer is quite as good as a mailman...but the fact that it can stand up to comparison is pretty epic.

    Also, I feel like everyone ignores the fact that UMD is a class skill. You can get some pretty awesome benefits out of this with relatively low investment.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Now, granted, I may have gotten a static +41 to a level 6 truenamer...
    Dear Lord, HOW? Did you use item familiars? That seems pretty darn impressive, just trying to do the numbers in my head. Is a breakdown available?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I'll admit it's on the low side of tier 2s, but at high op levels, ignoring defenses is pretty huge. The mailman isn't relevant because of damage numbers...it's relevant because it's difficult to stop. And even that still requires an attack roll. Now, I'm not to claim that a high op truenamer is quite as good as a mailman...but the fact that it can stand up to comparison is pretty epic.
    But a mailman can do things that ignore defenses, even if it is just omgwtf-huge damage (and with things like Enervation, Fell Drain, Fell Animate, Born of Three Thunders, etc., it's not just damage). What can the Truenamer do? I'm AFB and haven't read the Utterances recently, but I seem to recall them getting very, very little in terms of useful effects (ignoring Conjunctive Gate). There was Slow, which is fairly-solid, but Slowing one guy, even if he can do nothing to stop you, isn't really that impressive... I may not be remembering things, but if you can do something that ignores defenses, but it doesn't actually make any difference, that's... not really worthy of tier-ing.

    I'm also really dubious of +41 at level 6 being anything but extreme optimization. It certainly runs contrary to Zaq's description...

    9 ranks, maxed, obvious.
    +7 Int, to be generous.
    +3 Skill Focus.
    +10 Amulet of the Silver Tongue (can you even afford a +10 at 6th?)
    = +29. That's still far short of +41. Where do you find another +12? Paragnostic Assembly and Item Familiar seem likely, but I wouldn't call that kind of book-diving for bonuses to be "obvious"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Also, I feel like everyone ignores the fact that UMD is a class skill. You can get some pretty awesome benefits out of this with relatively low investment.
    UMD is ignored by the Tier list. Anyone can UMD; plenty of classes can UMD better than the Truenamer, thanks to the Truenamer's Int focus and lack of specific UMD-related class features. UMD is a feature of Warlocks and Artificers, but not the Truenamer.
    Last edited by ThiefInTheNight; 2011-09-06 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiefInTheNight View Post
    But a mailman can do things that ignore defenses, even if it is just omgwtf-huge damage (and with things like Enervation, Fell Drain, Fell Animate, Born of Three Thunders, etc., it's not just damage). What can the Truenamer do? I'm AFB and haven't read the Utterances recently, but I seem to recall them getting very, very little in terms of useful effects (ignoring Conjunctive Gate). There was Slow, which is fairly-solid, but Slowing one guy, even if he can do nothing to stop you, isn't really that impressive... I may not be remembering things, but if you can do something that ignores defenses, but it doesn't actually make any difference, that's... not really worthy of tier-ing.
    See, this is the problem with comparing against theoretical archbuilds. Yes, you CAN make a mailman that does other things. And no...he DOES just do damage. You can't really just toss feats around, since the archetypal mailman build, Cindy, requires all feats, and really doesn't do anything other than stock god caster stuff until fairly decent levels.

    Being able to pull stuff out of the sky, for instance, is nice. Not fantastic, but you're gonna know the Utterance anyhow since it lets you fly. At high tiers of optimization, flight is a very common thing for people to have, and making it go away is relevant. At op levels, it's not nearly as common, or common as early.

    Additionally, I direct you to quicken. Note that it does not suffer the usual level stuff that vancian spellcasters do. You don't have to care about metamagic reducers, you ONLY need to optimize the truenaming check. Do that, and quicken suddenly becomes "wee, I cast two spells a round".

    I'm also really dubious of +41 at level 6 being anything but extreme optimization. It certainly runs contrary to Zaq's description...

    9 ranks, maxed, obvious.
    +7 Int, to be generous.
    +3 Skill Focus.
    +10 Amulet of the Silver Tongue (can you even afford a +10 at 6th?)
    = +29. That's still far short of +41. Where do you find another +12? Paragnostic Assembly and Item Familiar seem likely, but I wouldn't call that kind of book-diving for bonuses to be "obvious"...
    No item familiar, actually. That could have pushed it much higher. A coupla feats(keen mind being one, Favored in Guild being another, don't recall third.) A masterwork tool. Then, a standard skill item with some extra WBL not used for other boosts/conversion to necropolitan(note that as it's ECL 7 starting, we have appropriate WBL for that, even though this build ends up at level 6).

    Masterwork tools are core. They do not count as extreme optimization.

    Googling for feats or spells that boost skills is not extreme optimization. I ended up not using any spell items because I wanted it nice and simple for a relatively new player to play. Just static bonuses.

    I also didn't burn all his resources on truenaming. He's also a particularly stealthy fellow with a +....24 I believe to stealth? An undead whisper gnome that screams peoples names to make them die.

    Hell, I hadn't even had him join the Paragnostic Assembly yet. I really should have, since there's good stuff to be had there, and he likely will at some point in the future, but again...this is only moderate optimization.

    UMD is ignored by the Tier list. Anyone can UMD; plenty of classes can UMD better than the Truenamer, thanks to the Truenamer's Int focus and lack of specific UMD-related class features. UMD is a feature of Warlocks and Artificers, but not the Truenamer.
    Good skill lists are arguably part of the class tier system. UMD is one of the best of skills. In class access to it is a notable virtue. Truenamer doesn't have the best of lists, but access to UMD is a strong redeeming feature.

    Int is also a pretty great primary stat. You're pretty much guaranteed to be training UMD as a truenamer unless you're just trying to avoid power.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I had really strongly considered using a color-code system (probably the trap/meh/decent/good/great/mandatory scheme that's so popular on the WotC 4e forums), but the truth is, there's a lot of utterances that are really hard to rate. Some are simply party-dependent, some are really GM-dependent, some are level-dependent, and some just depend on what you want to do. For example, take the Word of Nurturing line. You'll almost surely want one or two of them, but which one or ones you want really depends on what level you're starting at, as well as what OTHER utterances you consider must-haves for your particular concept. That's not something that you can put a solid rating on. I think that I've done a decent job outlining which utterances are really top-notch and which utterances are garbage . . . and I've tried to present enough information to let the reader make an informed decision about the ones in between. (Besides, what color represents "this option isn't really good, but you might end up taking it anyway just because there's seriously nothing else at this level that's any better"?) If you really think it would help, I might be able to be convinced. (Thoughts from anyone else would also be welcomed. I do appreciate feedback.)
    You did a great job in the detail, but someone skimming the guide - say, whose truenamer leveled during a gaming session and needs a refresher - would have to read that detail on every single option before making an informed choice. That's where color ratings come into play.

    Equally important as a color rating for the Utterances, is one for the feats, particularly the ones that boost one's Truespeak check. You've listed several as options but wrote in the detailed text words to the effect of "Yeah you can pick this, but it's a really bad idea" - someone skimming your guide to build a Truenamer might see the feats listed in that post and not know which are must-haves and which are near-traps.

    So in the interest of readability I think a color system is an essential part of any complete guide, particularly one about a class that is this easy to gimp. Some choices are situational, yes, but that's what the average rating is for.

    Concerning the WoN line, the typical standard for ratings is a 1-20 build. Assuming you start a Truenamer from the beginning and take it to the end, which WoNs are best? You can then include a caveat that the ratings may change based on the campaign's beginning and ending point.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Favored in Guild, as per Ravenloft campaign setting, would be pretty handy to include. Minor fluff stuff, but it's a flat +2 to the skill, provided you can justify a guild of mostly Truenamers. This overlaps really well with Paragnostic Assembly.

    It's not quite as nice as Skill Focus, but it's still high on the list of feats to invest in.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-09-06 at 01:29 PM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    They're a solid limited list caster. At low levels, they require little to no optimization to be good, and at high levels, they get to gate for free. It is not an expectation of tier 2s that they will be able to break the game at every level.
    No, but there's a difference between "can break the game at mid-to-high levels" and "can break the game exclusively at level 20 in exactly one way." Being able to gate basically at will is obviously ridiculous, but it's also exactly one-twentieth of the Truenamer experience. Sorcerers can get encounter-defining spells starting on level one and only get better from there.

    But if you want to place level 20 truenamers in tier 2, you won't get any argument from me. I just disagree that a single capstone utterance makes up enough of the class to justify its inclusion in a tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I'll admit it's on the low side of tier 2s, but at high op levels, ignoring defenses is pretty huge. The mailman isn't relevant because of damage numbers...it's relevant because it's difficult to stop. And even that still requires an attack roll. Now, I'm not to claim that a high op truenamer is quite as good as a mailman...but the fact that it can stand up to comparison is pretty epic.
    But it can't stand up to comparison. Contrary to what you say, the damage of the mailman is extremely relevant to its power; so is ignoring defenses, but ignoring defenses is pointless if your attack doesn't do anything. If you can ignore saves and spell resistance and armor class, that's great, but if you're dealing less than massive amounts of damage, big deal.

    A well-built charger or archer is likely to be able to kill most anything in one or two full-attack actions and have a high enough attack bonus (and enough magic items dealing with concealment or invisibility) to hit with great reliability. They're still only tier 4. So even if the truenamer's methods of beating things up is a lot more potent than Zaq's analysis implies, it's still not tier 2 material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Also, I feel like everyone ignores the fact that UMD is a class skill. You can get some pretty awesome benefits out of this with relatively low investment.
    Sure, but if "has UMD" was enough to justify inclusion in tier 2, it'd be a pretty full tier. (Or maybe you meant that should justify it in tier 4. I'd be more open to that suggestion; opinions differ on how much UMD should count for tier placement, but it does offer enough power and versatility to compete at that level.)
    Last edited by Gametime; 2011-09-06 at 01:39 PM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    None of those things alone are sufficient to make it tier 2. Action economy abuse is not enough, being a limited list caster is not enough, having a way to break the game is not enough. Having other interesting options such as UMD is not enough. But having all of those things? That's pretty much what tier 2 is.

    Tier 2 has options, is good at it's role, and can break the game in some way. Check.
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