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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Tier 2 has options, is good at it's role, and can break the game in some way. Check.
    I don't see how Truenamer has the first two in any really impressive measure, and it only has like 2 specific ways to do the third. I really wouldn't put it up there as a class. Maybe a truenamer can be built who hangs out with tier 3s or 2s but the optimization potential and necessary effort is much higher, which should impose a lower tier.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Tier 2 has options, is good at it's role, and can break the game in some way. Check.
    I have to agree with Claudius here; just because a cheesed-out character has the power of a Sorcerer or Psion doesn't mean that the class as a whole is at that level. The Tier system assumes that the classes are being compared at the same levels of optimization. If you take that into consideration, you're comparing your Truenamer to White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Venerable Kobold Sorcerers, not your garden-variety Mailman.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Good skill lists are arguably part of the class tier system. UMD is one of the best of skills. In class access to it is a notable virtue. Truenamer doesn't have the best of lists, but access to UMD is a strong redeeming feature.
    Yes, a good skill list is a (relatively minor) factor, and UMD is a fantastic skill, but there are many better UMDers than Truenamer out there. Including Tier-4 Rogues, who can get more mileage out of Cha than a Truenamer can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Int is also a pretty great primary stat. You're pretty much guaranteed to be training UMD as a truenamer unless you're just trying to avoid power.
    Agreed on both points, but I don't think you can claim Tier-2 status just because you can UMD a Wand of Solid Fog or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    None of those things alone are sufficient to make it tier 2. Action economy abuse is not enough, being a limited list caster is not enough, having a way to break the game is not enough. Having other interesting options such as UMD is not enough. But having all of those things? That's pretty much what tier 2 is.

    Tier 2 has options, is good at it's role, and can break the game in some way. Check.
    The Truenamer notably isn't good at its role, and cannot break the game (other than through UMD-access of another class's features) until level 20. So... that doesn't seem like Tier 2 at all.

    I mean, I'll be honest: I've never played a Truenamer, nor do I know anyone who has, aside from Zaq who I know only through these threads. That said, I've read that section of Tome of Magic and I find Zaq's description of his experiences far more plausible than yours. What you're suggesting does not seem likely based on what I've read in Tome of Magic...

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiefInTheNight View Post
    I mean, I'll be honest: I've never played a Truenamer, nor do I know anyone who has, aside from Zaq who I know only through these threads.
    Here are my (admittedly amateur) exploits with a Truenamer on this very forum.

    It's not much, but it does give you a feel for the class, and it is a lot different playing one than it is reading about them. Like the Law of Resistance, for example; it sucks, yes, but I've never failed to use an utterance. It's the LoS that really kills you, potentially literally.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Now, let's not go impugning what Tyndmyr is saying just because his experiences differ from mine. I may have ended up as the de facto authority on Truenamers through a combination of luck and bullheaded stubbornness, but that doesn't mean that I speak with papal infallibility.

    That said, I will mention that he's playing at the sweet spot for Truenamers. 6-10 is a decent set of levels, because not only haven't you run out of good utterances yet, but you also have enough resources to pick up a fair Truespeak modifier but probably haven't taken all the low-hanging fruit yet. If I were to recommend a good level range for 'Namers, it'd be about 6-10. At 9 you get Quicken, of course, and you can probably find a couple 4th level utterances you can use. Beyond that, things get sketchy, and there still won't be a lot of variety from 'Namer to 'Namer, but it's probably at its most playable.

    As for what tier the Truenamer is . . . I stand by the opinion that they just don't fit into the traditional tier system. The amount of resources you have to pour into getting your Truespeak mod up (yes, it's certainly doable, but it takes feats and gold that other classes don't have to spend to achieve baseline competence at their stated role) just kind of flummoxes attempts to define a baseline of optimization . . . and, as I've stated, the fact that they just kind of run out of good things to take is definitely a strike against them. If Truespeak didn't exist and they just got their utterances at-will, I'd ballpark them around the level of the Warlock, so probably highish T4. With the existence of Truespeak, though . . . yes, you can get your mod up to the point where the utterances may as well be at-will, but it's not fair to ignore what you have to invest to get to that point.

    Perhaps that's a point that I haven't made clear enough, and I'll consider going back and harping on it a little more. The fact that Truespeak exists isn't what makes the Truenamer bad. Hell, most of my analysis of the utterances is working under the assumption that you're practically always going to succeed at them. (I expect you to have Quicken, after all, and to even have a CHANCE of Quickening, you have to be completely unable to fail at an un-Quickened utterance.) The problem is that getting your Truespeak mod up basically eats the majority of the resources that would normally go into fleshing out and customizing your character . . . and then the reward, while not TOTALLY negligible, is still not nearly what you would expect. I'd never call the Truenamer unplayable (this guide would not exist if that were the case, as I'd like to think is obvious) . . . just very frustrating.

    A Truenamer CAN be a functioning and valuable party member. It's just hard.

    Anyway, as for the color-coding system, I may go back and install a simple three-color system (probably trap/average/good), intentionally leaving it coarse-grained. We'll see. It'd basically divide the utterances into ""please don't take this," "you should probably take this," and "you tell me whether you should take this." No promises, but I'll think about it.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Only if you mark the Truenamer itself in red, Zaq.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I'll look at level 10.

    13 ranks max, but we'll likely be leaving a lot of knowledges at rank 10.
    Let's assume that we had a base Int of 18, and were playing Illumian, without an item familiar. At level 4 and 8, boost to int.

    Skills at level 1: 32
    Skills at level 2-7: 8/level -48 total
    Skills at level 8-10: 9/level -27 total.
    Total Skill points: 107.
    Truespeak: 13 ranks
    UMD: 13 ranks
    Knowledge (any): 11 ranks
    Knowledge (7 others): 10 ranks

    This makes getting the +10 bonus from paragnostic assembly easy (+16 for 10 ranks in 8 knowledges, +5 for 10 HD, +1 for class levels with knowledge in 3 class =22... find a bit more and you're good.)

    On truespeak:
    Assume the +10 amulet, as well, and that's a +22 without ranks. +6 int item, and you're up to +30. Add on ranks and you're up to +43. Skill focus + MW Item puts you at +48.

    Not bad. Against a CR 10, you're looking at DC 35 checks, so even quickening has a decent shot at first. 95% if you boost all skills by 5 first. 100% if you're targeting yourself at that level, and you boost all skills by 5 first.

    But that is a significant amount of optimization. More than typically goes into UMD cheese.

    That said, your knowledge checks will likely be impressive (+30ish, for a nearly guaranteed ID of anything with 20 or lower HD, and a +4-5 range for knowledge devotion) -this assumes Hidden knowledge utterance.

    Assume the most powerful Word of Nurturing? And you're looking at 6d6+5 damage per round, and likely 4d6+5 as well.

    Combat would likely be:

    R1:Utterance +5 to all skills
    Quicken Utterance +10 knowledges
    Knowledge devotion on everything.

    R2: Quicken Seek the sky on self, fly somewhere
    Post powerful Reversed WoN on enemy - 6d6+5 damage

    R3: Concentrate on WoN - 6d6+5 damage
    Quicken 2nd most powerful WoN - 4d6+5

    R4: Concentrate, 2nd most powerful - 4d6+5
    Quicken most powerful WoN -6d6+5
    Move somewhere.

    Note, you can maintain an average of 45 damage per round after round 2, and 26 on round 2. Not bad, but that's a LOT of resources for modest damage. Yes, it can ignore SR, but with quicken? That's a tall order, without item familiars. With item familiars? It's doable.

    So SR may be a bit of an issue, but if you're willing to sacrifice damage and not concentrate, you could keep up 26 per round reliably on it (6d6 + max from Knowledge devotion, which will happen more often than not).
    Last edited by candycorn; 2011-09-07 at 05:01 AM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    As a "passable buffer", a healer, a super-know-man and a mage booster, it sounds like a truenamer would be good for a cohort or DMPC. They'd make a great DM mouthpiece, for example, and they wouldn't overshadow too many PCs.

    There's a cleric/paladin spell called divine insight that gives an insight bonus between +8 and +15 to any single skill check, and it can be cast well ahead of time and expended as an immediate action. Sounds like a good thing for a truenamer to keep a wand of. Possibly also a reason to multiclass [cloistered] cleric. (Which leads me to wonder how I could homebrew spending turn undead attempts to boost truenaming.)

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    As a "passable buffer", a healer, a super-know-man and a mage booster, it sounds like a truenamer would be good for a cohort or DMPC. They'd make a great DM mouthpiece, for example, and they wouldn't overshadow too many PCs.

    There's a cleric/paladin spell called divine insight that gives an insight bonus between +8 and +15 to any single skill check, and it can be cast well ahead of time and expended as an immediate action. Sounds like a good thing for a truenamer to keep a wand of. Possibly also a reason to multiclass [cloistered] cleric. (Which leads me to wonder how I could homebrew spending turn undead attempts to boost truenaming.)
    Would make a Truenamer / Archivist gestalt fairly competent.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    I don't see how Truenamer has the first two in any really impressive measure, and it only has like 2 specific ways to do the third. I really wouldn't put it up there as a class. Maybe a truenamer can be built who hangs out with tier 3s or 2s but the optimization potential and necessary effort is much higher, which should impose a lower tier.
    So, you and RaggedAngel are agreeing with me? That's exactly what I said. A highly optimized truenamer hits tier 2, an average truenamer is parked at Tier 4. You can use it for it's job, but it's not great at it, and it's not very good at filling lots of roles.

    Some classes vary in tier based on optimization levels more than others do.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    Here are my (admittedly amateur) exploits with a Truenamer on this very forum.

    It's not much, but it does give you a feel for the class, and it is a lot different playing one than it is reading about them. Like the Law of Resistance, for example; it sucks, yes, but I've never failed to use an utterance. It's the LoS that really kills you, potentially literally.
    Yes. Everyone acts like it's the check scaling at 2 per cr/hd that matters. Meh. If you read that class, and your first reaction is not "I need to make sure I have a great truenaming skill check", you need to reread. LoS isn't that bad, though. It's annoying, sure, but only really from a healing/buffing perspective. You're not really a healbot, though you can fake it reasonably well. However, it does actually come up in play, so it's not as ignorable as the checks post-char creation.

    Edit: I'm probably not that far off from Zaq, actually. I agree that the tier system doesn't capture it well. I certainly agree that a certain amount of money/feat investment is required. Hell, it's probably intentional, judging by the existence of the Amulet of the Silver Tongue. While it certainly didn't eat all my investment in my example char, it did take a substantial amount. Still, I had enough left over for necropolitan, stealth, and pulling a +10 to init. That's not terribly shabby. While a wizard or whatever may not require investment in casting to work...in practice, they tend to do exactly that anyway. And while a wizard is still much better than a truenamer...they do not benefit from this investment in the same proportion.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-09-07 at 06:57 AM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Wow, it seems like you've got a great cast of roleplayers there. Having gamed with some myself, it's a privilege. I wish you and your group continuing greatness--it looks like you're off to a good start.

    PM me if you ever need more players?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, you and RaggedAngel are agreeing with me? That's exactly what I said. A highly optimized truenamer hits tier 2, an average truenamer is parked at Tier 4. You can use it for it's job, but it's not great at it, and it's not very good at filling lots of roles.

    Some classes vary in tier based on optimization levels more than others do.



    Yes. Everyone acts like it's the check scaling at 2 per cr/hd that matters. Meh. If you read that class, and your first reaction is not "I need to make sure I have a great truenaming skill check", you need to reread. LoS isn't that bad, though. It's annoying, sure, but only really from a healing/buffing perspective. You're not really a healbot, though you can fake it reasonably well. However, it does actually come up in play, so it's not as ignorable as the checks post-char creation.
    I don't know. Light optimization for this class would be (level 1):
    Max ranks in Truespeak.
    High base stat
    Skill focus (truespeak)

    Assuming elite array, and 15 int, with a +2 int race?
    +10 at level 1 - vs DC 17 checks
    +14 at level 4 - vs DC 23 checks
    +33 at level 12 - vs DC 39 checks (+10 amulet gained by this point)
    +42 at level 20 - vs DC 55 checks

    It becomes harder and harder to be viable as you progress. I'd put it solidly in Tier 5-6 without at least moderate optimization.

    With moderate optimization, it could be tier 4, but only if you have a 50% or better chance to hit enemies with effective abilities at all stages.

    With heavy, heavy optimization, I'd likely rate it at high tier 3/low tier 2.

    But that's character rating, not class rating. As a class, this is pretty well stuck in the Tier 5 range. You must optimize more heavily than your companions to keep up. If a Sorceror optimizes to the same extent you do, he will always be well above the truenamer's power level.

    Well above. As in, not even a reasonable comparison.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    I don't know. Light optimization for this class would be (level 1):
    Max ranks in Truespeak.
    High base stat
    Skill focus (truespeak)

    Assuming elite array, and 15 int, with a +2 int race?
    +10 at level 1 - vs DC 17 checks
    +14 at level 4 - vs DC 23 checks
    +33 at level 12 - vs DC 39 checks (+10 amulet gained by this point)
    +42 at level 20 - vs DC 55 checks

    It becomes harder and harder to be viable as you progress. I'd put it solidly in Tier 5-6 without at least moderate optimization.

    With moderate optimization, it could be tier 4, but only if you have a 50% or better chance to hit enemies with effective abilities at all stages.

    With heavy, heavy optimization, I'd likely rate it at high tier 3/low tier 2.

    But that's character rating, not class rating. As a class, this is pretty well stuck in the Tier 5 range. You must optimize more heavily than your companions to keep up. If a Sorceror optimizes to the same extent you do, he will always be well above the truenamer's power level.

    Well above. As in, not even a reasonable comparison.
    Look, the amulet of the Silver Tongue is pretty low op. It's in the same book as truenamer, it's not horrendously expensive, and it's pretty easy for even a casual player with limited sources to find.

    Ditto masterwork tool. It's core, and it's dirt cheap.

    Adding +12 to any of those checks make them a lot more reasonable. Sure, you won't be rocking the world at a low op level, but neither does an Adept or a Marshall. Those are both tier 4.

    At low op, you have no quicken most likely, but you're contributing to every encounter and filling your role.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I'd like to post the inevitable reminder that tiers don't measure an individual build or one instance within the context of a particular party in a particular gameworld. They measure the class's inherent potential. Insofar as Truenamer has a measurable tier at all, it'd be quite poor, because it does rely on stuff outside the class (e.g. specific magic items, organizations) to even apply its basic ability to solving problems. It happens to have a higher potential optimizability built into it than, say, Fighter, but it wouldn't be a high tier as a result of that.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    I'd like to post the inevitable reminder that tiers don't measure an individual build or one instance within the context of a particular party in a particular gameworld. They measure the class's inherent potential. Insofar as Truenamer has a measurable tier at all, it'd be quite poor, because it does rely on stuff outside the class (e.g. specific magic items, organizations) to even apply its basic ability to solving problems. It happens to have a higher potential optimizability built into it than, say, Fighter, but it wouldn't be a high tier as a result of that.
    The amulet of the silver tongue, in fairness, is about as far outside this class as a magic weapon is for a fighter. Seriously, the only point of the item is to be a gold tax on the truenamer, just like skill focus is a feat tax.
    Last edited by candycorn; 2011-09-07 at 07:17 AM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Tier 2 has options, is good at it's role, and can break the game in some way. Check.
    "Good at its role?" The closest role I can find for the Truenamer is cheerleader, similar to a Bard, and it's actually pretty poor at that (due to the Laws, short buff durations, limited utterance variety, the very late acquisition of Speak Unto the Masses etc.)

    It does have options, but they start out not much better than the options other classes get at similar levels, rapidly degrade, and suddenly become at-will Gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Anyway, as for the color-coding system, I may go back and install a simple three-color system (probably trap/average/good), intentionally leaving it coarse-grained. We'll see. It'd basically divide the utterances into ""please don't take this," "you should probably take this," and "you tell me whether you should take this." No promises, but I'll think about it.
    Should you do this, please extend it to the feats as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Good at its role?" The closest role I can find for the Truenamer is cheerleader, similar to a Bard, and it's actually pretty poor at that (due to the Laws, short buff durations, limited utterance variety, the very late acquisition of Speak Unto the Masses etc.)

    It does have options, but they start out not much better than the options other classes get at similar levels, rapidly degrade, and suddenly become at-will Gate.
    It's not quite that close to a bard. Optimized bards tend to fall into one of two categories...Inspire Courage optimization or "I'm basically a sorc". The Truenamer doesn't match either of these, really.

    You're reliable, is what you are. You can heal well, but you'll never be the best in combat healer(though popping up a word of nurturing BEFORE a nasty fight is quite efficient). You deal damage quite reliably, but you'll never be the highest damage dealer. You have some buffs, but you'll never be the best buffer. But you have pretty good flexibility on which of those you choose to do at any given point in time.

    I mean, a straight truenamer party would probably function. I'm now curious to try it.

    Yeah, at-will gate is just a bit ludicrous. No argument there.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    On a slightly different tack, I'll be playing a Daring Outlaw/Acolyte of the Ego shortly for a PbP. I took some tips from the the last guide (Paragnostic Assembly? Check! ) and I'll see whether I can actually manage to pseudo-gish by boosting physical stats through the appropriate cadences, while dropping the occasional sonic breath weapon, finishing up the class with Uncanny Trickster to pick up a 6th Cadence and the corresponding boost to abilities there-in. If it goes somewhere and works out, I'll post the sheet and build for posterity.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    As a "passable buffer", a healer, a super-know-man and a mage booster, it sounds like a truenamer would be good for a cohort or DMPC. They'd make a great DM mouthpiece, for example, and they wouldn't overshadow too many PCs.

    There's a cleric/paladin spell called divine insight that gives an insight bonus between +8 and +15 to any single skill check, and it can be cast well ahead of time and expended as an immediate action. Sounds like a good thing for a truenamer to keep a wand of. Possibly also a reason to multiclass [cloistered] cleric. (Which leads me to wonder how I could homebrew spending turn undead attempts to boost truenaming.)
    My truenmaer fix actually empathizes this. The truenamer gets many neat boosting abilities and can heal and remove status afflictions. My fix included making these essentially at will and allowed them to be effective trap destroyers/finders. This along with a few neat additions allowed them to fill all "required" class roles that don't always get filled and due to their helping nature it makes them about the best DM controlled party member ever. All of this while not stealing the spotlight.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I would like to mention that familiars, animal companions, and probably eidolons and summons have a CR of - which means a truenamer only needs a 15 to affect them.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    I would like to mention that familiars, animal companions, and probably eidolons and summons have a CR of - which means a truenamer only needs a 15 to affect them.
    source?

    (also, don't things without a defined CR just use HD?)

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    I would like to mention that familiars, animal companions, and probably eidolons and summons have a CR of - which means a truenamer only needs a 15 to affect them.
    Not the case. While minions gained from class features don't add to the CR of an encounter, that doesn't mean they don't have a CR.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    source?h

    (also, don't things without a defined CR just use HD?)
    The fact that when ever they are mentioned they have a CR of "-"?

    Unless I just had a bad selection grouping

    Also, the only group that doesn't use CR are PCs
    Last edited by Lans; 2011-09-08 at 12:49 AM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    The fact that when ever they are mentioned they have a CR of "-"?

    Unless I just had a bad selection grouping

    Also, the only group that doesn't use CR are PCs
    ToM pg. 196: "For creatures that don't have Challenge Ratings, such as PCs, use a DC of 15 + (2 x the creature's HD)."

    Having a CR of "-" means they default to the quoted rule, not to 15. (Unless they have less than 0.5 HD that is.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2011-09-08 at 02:02 AM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Look, the amulet of the Silver Tongue is pretty low op. It's in the same book as truenamer, it's not horrendously expensive, and it's pretty easy for even a casual player with limited sources to find.

    Ditto masterwork tool. It's core, and it's dirt cheap.

    Adding +12 to any of those checks make them a lot more reasonable. Sure, you won't be rocking the world at a low op level, but neither does an Adept or a Marshall. Those are both tier 4.

    At low op, you have no quicken most likely, but you're contributing to every encounter and filling your role.
    I added the 10k item at the level 12 spot. I did not feel that the 2.5k one was incredibly likely at level 4, as it's about 50% of the character's total wealth. Similarly, I included no MW item, since it requires a small amount of custom item creation, and is not guaranteed to be allowed. This is the BASELINE numbers. And they included that Silver tongue amulet. (note your quoted text for level 12 "+10 amulet gained by this point")

    Even then, they fall under 50% at high levels. That means that, at low levels, this isn't just Tier 4. It's non-still spell wizard in full plate... But without hours/level or even minutes/level buffs.

    This class needs moderate optimization to even be playable. The class chassis, plus the base class resources are not enough to compete.

    A fighter with a high strength and a magic weapon? Contributes.
    A wizard with a high int and a spellbook? Contributes.
    A truenamer with a high int, max skill ranks, feats spent, and magic item boosting? Sometimes can contribute. Maybe.

    You need more than just that.

    At level 16? DC 48 vs Truespeak +37, under the baseline numbers I got. Wizards are dropping mind blank, and you? Get to do your effects with 50% accuracy. Even a charging raging barbarian generally has a better than 50% hit chance.
    All of this has happened before...
    and all of this will happen again.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ToM pg. 196: "For creatures that don't have Challenge Ratings, such as PCs, use a DC of 15 + (2 x the creature's HD)."

    Having a CR of "-" means they default to the quoted rule, not to 15.
    Also, Zaq did mention the bunny trick only needs a Truespeak DC of 16. Improved familiars and the like will have higher DC's, of course.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ToM pg. 196: "For creatures that don't have Challenge Ratings, such as PCs, use a DC of 15 + (2 x the creature's HD)."

    Having a CR of "-" means they default to the quoted rule, not to 15. (Unless they have less than 0.5 HD that is.)
    Bleah, I miss remembered that.

    I guess I have to try and prove my old statement false.

    I suppose if their is a written rule as opposed to my inference from various stat blocks would work

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    At level 16? DC 48 vs Truespeak +37, under the baseline numbers I got Wizards are dropping mind blank, and you? Get to do your effects with 50% accuracy. Even a charging raging barbarian generally has a better than 50% hit chance.
    Solid fog and control winds are only a DC 40 which is a pretty good chance, and rock to mud is only 35 which is a guarantee.


    Question does a busted magic item have a caster level?
    Last edited by Lans; 2011-09-08 at 06:53 AM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    Similarly, I included no MW item, since it requires a small amount of custom item creation, and is not guaranteed to be allowed. This is the BASELINE numbers. And they included that Silver tongue amulet. (note your quoted text for level 12 "+10 amulet gained by this point")
    Level 12 is...slow. Like, really slow. I nabbed one for the level 7 char I created, and while it ate a goodly portion of WBL, it certainly wasn't all of it.

    Masterwork tool is a line item. No custom item creation at all. Any class can be hurt by random bans of legit things.

    Elite array is also not standard, or even common for character creation. I invariably see roll or point buy, and it would be a very low op group that doesn't understand the concept of putting your highest stat appropriately for your class. A wizard with terrible int is also gimped. That doesn't make the wizard low tier, because in practice, you don't make wizards with terrible int.

    Consider a 17 int, at level 12. They have the amulet. They have +2 int as an enhancement bonus(more is easily accessible, but we're assuming fairly low competence here). They have skill focus, they have a masterwork tool. They have put level up bonuses into int. 24 int, aka +7+15ranks+2tool+3feat+10amulet = +37, facing DC 39. Wow. 5% failure chance.

    There's a nice low level utterance that gives a flat +5, too. That's going to get busted out if there is any trouble.

    Even then, they fall under 50% at high levels. That means that, at low levels, this isn't just Tier 4. It's non-still spell wizard in full plate... But without hours/level or even minutes/level buffs.
    And what percentage of a monk or fighter's round will matter at high levels?

    Also, at 20, it is normally assumed that people have bothered to pick up solid enhancement bonuses and inherent bonuses to their primary class. With a starting 18/19(+5 is possible but hey, they might have rolling and not rolled an 18), +5 from levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement. We won't count age, since, again, we're being very generous. That's still at least a 34, for a +12 from stats alone.

    So, stat, max ranks, feat, mw tool, amulet = +50. Cast your vanilla +5 booster on yourself(oh look, you get personal truename for free. Buffing yourself is even easier!) and suddenly, you're automatically hitting checks. This is not high op. This is "basic understanding of the system" op.

    Barbarians who fail to invest in primary stats and magical weapons also suck pretty hard at level 20.

    This class needs moderate optimization to even be playable. The class chassis, plus the base class resources are not enough to compete.
    And a barb needs feats, magical items and good stat distribution to be at all relevant at level 20 too. So? The barbarian is still tier 4.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post

    Masterwork tool is a line item. No custom item creation at all. Any class can be hurt by random bans of legit things.
    It isn't really a huge deal past the earliest levels, but I think you're being a little optimistic in assuming masterwork tools of truespeak are automatically "legit." The entry itself contains vague phrases like "bonus to an applicable skill (if any)" and "covers just about everything else" (emphasis mine).

    It may be less ambiguous than custom item creation, but it's still more ambiguous than using almost any other printed item.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    It isn't really a huge deal past the earliest levels, but I think you're being a little optimistic in assuming masterwork tools of truespeak are automatically "legit." The entry itself contains vague phrases like "bonus to an applicable skill (if any)" and "covers just about everything else" (emphasis mine).

    It may be less ambiguous than custom item creation, but it's still more ambiguous than using almost any other printed item.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD version
    This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.
    it provides +2 circumstance to a check, if there is a check. sure, you might have trouble figuring out what sort of a tool you need (it's based on whether it's applicable, not actually keyed to a particular skill, as the popular interpretation seems to be), but there's no ambiguity as to whether it gives its bonus on the check.

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