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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    It isn't really a huge deal past the earliest levels, but I think you're being a little optimistic in assuming masterwork tools of truespeak are automatically "legit." The entry itself contains vague phrases like "bonus to an applicable skill (if any)" and "covers just about everything else" (emphasis mine).

    It may be less ambiguous than custom item creation, but it's still more ambiguous than using almost any other printed item.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD version
    This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.
    it provides +2 circumstance to a check, if there is a check. sure, you might have trouble figuring out what sort of a tool you need (it's based on whether it's applicable, not actually keyed to a particular skill, as the popular interpretation seems to be), but there's no ambiguity as to whether it gives its bonus on the check.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    ...Well, obviously there's no ambiguity that a masterwork tool applicable to Truespeak would provide a +2 circumstance bonus to Truespeak checks. The question is whether there are any tools applicable to Truespeak. I don't think it's at all a given.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime
    ...Well, obviously there's no ambiguity that a masterwork tool applicable to Truespeak would provide a +2 circumstance bonus to Truespeak checks. The question is whether there are any tools applicable to Truespeak. I don't think it's at all a given.
    Does this work for you?

    In essence, she's made the handle of the morningstar into a cheatsheet for Truespeak, covering it with the most common syllables in Truespeak spelled out phonetically in various languages that she speaks fluently, like Celestial and Infernal. It may be a bit stronger than the average tool, since it's a part of her weapon, but any reasonable DM should allow it, since we're talking about helping out a Truenamer.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Clearly this is the masterwork tool you are looking for.

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    Does this work for you?

    In essence, she's made the handle of the morningstar into a cheatsheet for Truespeak, covering it with the most common syllables in Truespeak spelled out phonetically in various languages that she speaks fluently, like Celestial and Infernal. It may be a bit stronger than the average tool, since it's a part of her weapon, but any reasonable DM should allow it, since we're talking about helping out a Truenamer.
    For me? I dislike the idea of Truespeak being so easily distilled into a cheat-sheet. But I wouldn't deny a player something like this, if I was the DM, and I certainly am not trying to pass any judgement on other players using masterwork tools. Whatever works for you and your group.

    I just don't think it's so explicitly spelled out in the rules that there must be a masterwork tool for every skill that players can justify being upset when their DM vetoes it, nor do I think disallowing a masterwork tool of Truespeak is on the same level of rule-changing as, say, giving the monk full BAB. That's all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    Clearly this is the masterwork tool you are looking for.

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    Now, this I would approve for a truenamer without a second thought.
    Last edited by Gametime; 2011-09-09 at 03:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK
    Why on earth would there be superstition in a world where you can just ask the gods stuff? "Hey, I hear throwing salt over your shoulder prevents bad luck." "Oh yeah? I'll ask the god of luck, brb."
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    Hey, it could be worse. It could be monks. One day, someone will start a thread titled "4E monks, more morally justified than 3.5 wizards!", and the world will end.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Gold Teeth. It's the Truespeak equivilant of gold stereo cords for an audiophile.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaurd Juris View Post
    Gold Teeth. It's the Truespeak equivilant of gold stereo cords for an audiophile.
    Bad example.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Level 12 is...slow. Like, really slow. I nabbed one for the level 7 char I created, and while it ate a goodly portion of WBL, it certainly wasn't all of it.
    Level 12 is slow. I gave listings for level 1, level 4, level 12, and level 20. This assumed a Base 15 (elite array) in a stat, so I took a snapshot at any point where intelligence boost from level resulted in a modifier increase. Yes, I fully agree that such a character will likely have a +10 item before level 12, I seriously doubt that they'll have one at level 4, which was the snapshot I took before that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Masterwork tool is a line item. No custom item creation at all. Any class can be hurt by random bans of legit things.
    Really? I see no item that specifically states that it provides a +2 competence bonus on Truespeak checks. I see one that states that it provides a bonus on a "related skill check (if any)... But that requires the DM approve the existance of that item for each skill. This is the part that lets the DM state that no, 'Medium Rary's Clif Notes for Spellcraft' won't fly.

    I'm not saying it's not balanced. I am saying that it's a custom item, just as a scroll of a Spell Compendium spell is. As such, it cannot be guaranteed to be allowed. If it is? Bonus prizes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Elite array is also not standard, or even common for character creation. I invariably see roll or point buy, and it would be a very low op group that doesn't understand the concept of putting your highest stat appropriately for your class. A wizard with terrible int is also gimped. That doesn't make the wizard low tier, because in practice, you don't make wizards with terrible int.
    I stated that this was a LOW OPTIMIZATION build. I stated that up front. This is to determine if the class is even viable at light optimization/low power level. Elite array is representative of a low power game.

    I did assume a +2 intelligence race, as well as the highest stat available to intelligence. That means the bolded text above is what those of us in the know refer to as a "straw man".
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Consider a 17 int, at level 12. They have the amulet. They have +2 int as an enhancement bonus(more is easily accessible, but we're assuming fairly low competence here). They have skill focus, they have a masterwork tool. They have put level up bonuses into int. 24 int, aka +7+15ranks+2tool+3feat+10amulet = +37, facing DC 39. Wow. 5% failure chance.
    Remove a masterwork tool, Assume elite array, and a +4 item (net effect same, less skill points).

    15% failure chance, the first time in a day.
    25% the second.
    35% the third.
    45% the fourth.
    55% the sixth (because they have likely failed one by now).
    65% the seventh
    75% the ninth
    85% the eleventh
    95% the sixteenth
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    There's a nice low level utterance that gives a flat +5, too. That's going to get busted out if there is any trouble.
    Not everyone will choose that. Granted, it SHOULD be chosen, but new/low-op characters generally also choose fireball over haste.

    This is NOT about being "ok" with optimal choices. It's about being able to get by WITHOUT optimal choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    And what percentage of a monk or fighter's round will matter at high levels?
    You want to compare Truenamer to a Tier 5 class? Thanks. You're proving my point. No longer are you comparing to those awesome tier 2 classes, and saying it can hang, cause even a low optimization sorceror will wipe the floor with a low optimization truenamer. Why? Because sorceror is ACTUALLY a tier 2 class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Also, at 20, it is normally assumed that people have bothered to pick up solid enhancement bonuses and inherent bonuses to their primary class. With a starting 18/19(+5 is possible but hey, they might have rolling and not rolled an 18), +5 from levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement. We won't count age, since, again, we're being very generous. That's still at least a 34, for a +12 from stats alone.
    You and I have different definitions of "very generous".

    I have a low-opt. character in one of my games. Doesn't look for everything. Duskblade. Put a high stat in strength... Put level ups in strength. Got a +2 strength item, and then sought a +4. Hasn't even discovered Tomes.

    So, elite array. Starting 15. Assume PHB races (low opt), and we'll go gnome, cause that con boost is ok, and small size is nice. Really, it's hard to go wrong with a gnome.

    Assume +5 from level ups. Assume +6 item. There's a 26. That's a +8 from stats.

    The problem with high op trying to imagine what low op is? They're out of touch with it. It's an alien point of view. Most high op players, imitating a low op player, just imagine a high op player with less books. That's not how such players work. Even with the books they have, they're likely to miss many of those hidden bonuses, or misinterpret the value of others.

    It really does make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, stat, max ranks, feat, mw tool, amulet = +50. Cast your vanilla +5 booster on yourself(oh look, you get personal truename for free. Buffing yourself is even easier!) and suddenly, you're automatically hitting checks. This is not high op. This is "basic understanding of the system" op.
    Struck out flawed numbers based on flawed assumptions... That a low-op character is simply a high op player, building with less books.

    It does not work that way.

    23 ranks + 8 ability +3 feat + 10 enhancement = +44
    CR 20 DC? 55.

    If it has SR that you need to autopenetrate? DC 60.

    If it's anything harder than a "run of the mill" encounter, such as a CR+3 bossfight?

    DC 61-66.

    Even your "generous" +50 is gonna be hard pressed to get a single ability through. The actual realistic low op number? Isn't gonna have a good day.
    Last edited by candycorn; 2011-09-10 at 02:53 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    Does this work for you?

    In essence, she's made the handle of the morningstar into a cheatsheet for Truespeak, covering it with the most common syllables in Truespeak spelled out phonetically in various languages that she speaks fluently, like Celestial and Infernal. It may be a bit stronger than the average tool, since it's a part of her weapon, but any reasonable DM should allow it, since we're talking about helping out a Truenamer.
    You're aware that the names for many things/actions are written in books thick enough to have chapters, right? And that's for a 2-5 syllable word? And botching even the tiniest portion of it, at that point, means failure?

    If they're still trying to get that pronunciation down, methinks they'll have a rather challenging time with the timings, inflections, stressed syllable portions, rhythym, and all the other things that would likely be needed.

    A monocle may provide bonuses to appraisal checks, because of enhanced vision. But will a masterwork hammer and anvil (MW Craft Weapon tool) provide a bonus to crafting a club? No. It's not applicable. If you need pages to describe something, and you have what chickenscratch you could fit on the handle of a stick?

    Methinks the chances of your scratch being "applicable" are low.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I've heard a suggestion of a pronunciation guide as a MW tool, and would allow it in my games. Poor True namer needs a little love.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    I've heard a suggestion of a pronunciation guide as a MW tool, and would allow it in my games. Poor True namer needs a little love.
    Ok, if we're looking at Truenamers as incredibly precise linguists, at the absolute pinnacle of verbal acuity...

    why then are we saying they'll receive a boost from what amounts, more or less, to something not taught outside of grade school?

    I agree they need a bit of help, but this makes as much sense as a Divine Mind's fluff.

    I could see a 10 use throat spray, perhaps. Limber up the speaky-box... But pronunciation guide? Really?
    Last edited by candycorn; 2011-09-10 at 06:36 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    Level 12 is slow. I gave listings for level 1, level 4, level 12, and level 20. This assumed a Base 15 (elite array) in a stat, so I took a snapshot at any point where intelligence boost from level resulted in a modifier increase. Yes, I fully agree that such a character will likely have a +10 item before level 12, I seriously doubt that they'll have one at level 4, which was the snapshot I took before that.
    Elite array is not standard or common. You're deliberately selecting unlikely circumstances at this point. Of COURSE it will appear less powerful in gimped circumstances.

    Really? I see no item that specifically states that it provides a +2 competence bonus on Truespeak checks. I see one that states that it provides a bonus on a "related skill check (if any)... But that requires the DM approve the existance of that item for each skill. This is the part that lets the DM state that no, 'Medium Rary's Clif Notes for Spellcraft' won't fly.
    It is a catch-all entry for all masterwork items not listed. They exist. The applicability of a given item to a given check is all that is limited. So, if you chose a masterwork pronunciation guide, and your character is currently blind, no +2 for you, since you cannot effectively utilize it in the circumstances.

    Possible applications include:
    Throat spray.
    Pronunciation guide(I would like to point out that in the real world, they are a common tool for learning other languages, an incredibly similar task)
    Memorization aide(seriously, hundreds of names, long and complicated? Yes, I'd want to write a cheat sheet.)
    Megaphone.

    I'm not saying it's not balanced. I am saying that it's a custom item, just as a scroll of a Spell Compendium spell is. As such, it cannot be guaranteed to be allowed. If it is? Bonus prizes.
    No...it is core. And it is not found in the custom item creation section. It is listed under basic equipment.

    I agree that the combo masterwork item/weapon is custom and is certainly not something to be taken for granted, any more than a combo divine focus/weapon should be taken for granted with clerics. This is mostly unimportant for truenamers, as they don't really need to muck about with weapons much.

    I stated that this was a LOW OPTIMIZATION build. I stated that up front. This is to determine if the class is even viable at light optimization/low power level. Elite array is representative of a low power game.
    Then I will compare against a similarly low optimization base. However, you will note that my original claim was tier 4 NORMALLY, and tier 2 in a high op environment. So, you're misrepresenting my argument a bit there.

    I did assume a +2 intelligence race, as well as the highest stat available to intelligence. That means the bolded text above is what those of us in the know refer to as a "straw man".
    Not at all. Your misrepresentation of my argument constitutes a perfect straw man, though.

    Remove a masterwork tool, Assume elite array, and a +4 item (net effect same, less skill points).

    15% failure chance, the first time in a day.
    25% the second.
    35% the third.
    45% the fourth.
    55% the sixth (because they have likely failed one by now).
    65% the seventh
    75% the ninth
    85% the eleventh
    95% the sixteenth
    Not everyone will choose that. Granted, it SHOULD be chosen, but new/low-op characters generally also choose fireball over haste.
    Given the amount of Utterances and that you quite literally have to take a couple first level ones...and later ones CAN be of a lower level, even a very suboptimal person, picking from available Utterances at random, perhaps with darts, at every level is quite likely to know this.

    A similarly poor player is likely to have trouble making other classes work as well.

    This is NOT about being "ok" with optimal choices. It's about being able to get by WITHOUT optimal choices.
    You want to compare Truenamer to a Tier 5 class? Thanks. You're proving my point. No longer are you comparing to those awesome tier 2 classes, and saying it can hang, cause even a low optimization sorceror will wipe the floor with a low optimization truenamer. Why? Because sorceror is ACTUALLY a tier 2 class.
    I said tier 2 in high op environments. Why are you deliberately, repeatedly misrepresenting what I said?

    I said tier 4 in normal conditions. Note that the actual comparisons were mostly to barbarian, a solid tier 4 class.

    I have a low-opt. character in one of my games. Doesn't look for everything. Duskblade. Put a high stat in strength... Put level ups in strength. Got a +2 strength item, and then sought a +4. Hasn't even discovered Tomes.
    Lovely. I'm sure a tier 4 class, barbarian, is fantastic at high levels with a similar lack of optimization. Also, a lack of investing WBL into his core class ability, hitting things. By level 20, he'll be almost entirely irrelevant.

    So, elite array. Starting 15. Assume PHB races (low opt), and we'll go gnome, cause that con boost is ok, and small size is nice. Really, it's hard to go wrong with a gnome.

    Assume +5 from level ups. Assume +6 item. There's a 26. That's a +8 from stats.
    So, entirely ignoring tomes AND wishes...inherent bonuses in general...and I might add that wishes are fairly notably known rewards. They occur somewhat frequently as rewards in higher level prebuilt campaigns. A player that is not at all out specifically for them might get them, browse over the list and decide that hey, the safe list looks pretty good.

    The problem with high op trying to imagine what low op is? They're out of touch with it. It's an alien point of view. Most high op players, imitating a low op player, just imagine a high op player with less books. That's not how such players work. Even with the books they have, they're likely to miss many of those hidden bonuses, or misinterpret the value of others.
    Right. Because I've never played low op before or met other low op players... cmon. Even the lowest op of players tend to figure out what the basic equipment for their class is. If a melee character fails to invest in a magic weapon, he'll suck a lot. Like, terribly. That's pretty extreme low op, though. ANY class can be made to suck if you choose exceedingly poorly.

    If I was operating with simply books instead of an op perspective, I'd be UMDing core skill boosting spell items to automatically pass checks. Meh. I can make a truenamer work quite decently with just ToM and core.

    Struck out flawed numbers based on flawed assumptions... That a low-op character is simply a high op player, building with less books.
    You literally cannot miss the +4 bonus from knowing your own truename. It is an automatic class feature that you get too early to miss via prestige classes. If you are a truenamer, you have this ability, done deal. Therefore, anything targetting yourself is more likely to work than you have portrayed.

    I've already pointed out that I've only taken the obvious options from those books. The bog standard things that do not require creative use of other skills, party members, or knowledge of other people's spells. I only assume that they read the truenaming section, and the basic character creation section(race, skills, feats, equipment). If you fail to read how those things work, you will likely do pretty terribly with anything. It's not like I included the bonus from, say, the ioun stone, which is also core.

    It does not work that way.

    23 ranks + 8 ability +3 feat + 10 enhancement = +44
    CR 20 DC? 55.

    If it has SR that you need to autopenetrate? DC 60.
    Er, "autopenetrate SR" is not a low power, low op standard thing.

    If it's anything harder than a "run of the mill" encounter, such as a CR+3 bossfight?

    DC 61-66.
    Not everything needs to target the boss. You can, say, target your party members. Note that friendlies are targetted by HD. So, if one of them is level drained or has LA? He's now easier to heal/buff.

    Uh, 15 + 23 * 2 = 61. So no, not 66.

    Even your "generous" +50 is gonna be hard pressed to get a single ability through. The actual realistic low op number? Isn't gonna have a good day.
    You appear to be trying to use "generous" sarcastically and failing. Typically, quotes are used to indicate that you don't believe it actually is generous. You also appear to be arguing that 50 is unrealistically high. Remedial Sarcasm class can be found at your local 4chan or /b/. Enjoy!

    +50 targetting CR 23 = DC

    We will assume that, being low op, he didn't bother to research the truename of the big bad enemy of the campaign, and instead, just nukes things. That's a straight 50/50 shot at getting a word of nurturing through. And, if he does? Automatic damage next turn as well by maintaining it. So, second turn has a 75% chance of dealing damage(because if he fails, he'll presumably just nuke again)

    This is on a player too stupid to realize over the course of twenty levels that a level 1 ability that gives him +5 to the check he keeps failing is a good idea to use. He literally just nukes and scratches his head if it fails. He also saw free Gate and went "ah, hell no". He didn't even bother looking at the meta-truenaming options. He didn't consider useful things like, yknow, paralyzing the enemy, which is basically a win for the team. He is literally playing as poorly as he possibly could without dumping his primary stat(and as discussed, a wizard with an utter lack of int would also fail).

    Still, he pulls an average of 43.75 damage over two rounds. Is this poor? Yes, but it's spectacularly low power/low op, remember?

    Now, let's consider ye olde barbarian, charging then full attacking over two rounds. Oh look, every core CR 23 opponent can fly. The solar has reach, and obliterates him on the charge in, even if he can reach. Also, it has DR 15/epic. Mr low op barbarian is pretty worthless here.

    The others? They're all dragons. A barbarian facing a DC 33 will save is basically screwed. He is also extremely worthless here. DR/magic isn't fantastic at these levels, but DR 20 basically ensures that any melee attack that isn't magical is irrelevant.

    Long story short, a low powered, low op, low experience tier 4 party facing a CR 23 enemy at level 20 is SCREWED. The truenamer happens to be marginally less so, but the party's still all going to die. This makes him a very solid tier 4.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-09-10 at 08:03 AM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Elite array is not standard or common. You're deliberately selecting unlikely circumstances at this point. Of COURSE it will appear less powerful in gimped circumstances.
    I'm not arguing whether or not it's less powerful.

    I'm arguing whether or not it's viable at low optimization. I don't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It is a catch-all entry for all masterwork items not listed. They exist.
    Strike out of text that is speculation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The applicability of a given item to a given check is all that is limited. So, if you chose a masterwork pronunciation guide
    ...And if it is deemed by your DM to apply to Truespeak...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    , and your character is currently blind, no +2 for you, since you cannot effectively utilize it in the circumstances.
    Now, your statement is correct. And iffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Possible applications include:
    Throat spray.
    Pronunciation guide(I would like to point out that in the real world, they are a common tool for learning other languages, an incredibly similar task)
    Memorization aide(seriously, hundreds of names, long and complicated? Yes, I'd want to write a cheat sheet.)
    Megaphone.
    and provided your DM agrees that these examples fulfill the non-listed requirements that must be fulfilled for it to be applicable, those are perfectly right. But each must be interpreted by a DM to apply.

    Thus? THEY CANNOT BE ASSUMED TO EXIST IN ALL GAMES.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    No...it is core. And it is not found in the custom item creation section. It is listed under basic equipment.
    Really? Can you show me the item listing for throat spray, pronunciation guides, and megaphones? Odd, I've never seen any of those items in the SRD, anywhere.

    I see a masterwork tool, and yes, I see that IF a DM agrees with your PERSONAL OPINION that it applies to Truespeak, THEN masterwork tool works.

    But that is no more a guarantee than saying that if my car has gas, I can get to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I agree that the combo masterwork item/weapon is custom and is certainly not something to be taken for granted, any more than a combo divine focus/weapon should be taken for granted with clerics. This is mostly unimportant for truenamers, as they don't really need to muck about with weapons much.
    Now if we can just get you to concede the fact that any specific masterwork tool must be ruled to be applicable by a DM, and until it is, it does precisely squat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Then I will compare against a similarly low optimization base. However, you will note that my original claim was tier 4 NORMALLY, and tier 2 in a high op environment. So, you're misrepresenting my argument a bit there.
    Let's compare the same for a sorceror. Halfling, 15 Charisma, 13 Dex (bumped to 15), +1 at level 4, 8, and 12. Spell focus and Greater spell focus in a school. Say, Evocation.

    This character, at level 1: Will be able to cast 1 spell per encounter, for 4 encounters. Remaining rounds, it can fire a light crossbow.

    At level 4? Will have a 16-17 DC on evocation spells, and level 2 spells. Will now be able to cast one level 2 spell, and two level 1 spells per encounter.

    Level 12? Will have 17-22 DC on evocation spells. Will have a stat of 22, with a +4 item, and will have 1 level 6 spell per encounter, 1.5 level 5 spells, and about 2 of everything else. That's 10.5 spells per encounter, more than the typical round. Now, there's plenty of bonus spells for buffing and such.

    Every spell has a 100% chance to be cast. Every single one.

    THIS IS HOW A TIER 2 LOOKS AT LOW OPTIMIZATION.
    I've assumed no more for this build than I did with the truenamer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Given the amount of Utterances and that you quite literally have to take a couple first level ones...and later ones CAN be of a lower level, even a very suboptimal person, picking from available Utterances at random, perhaps with darts, at every level is quite likely to know this.
    Ah, so now the lack of Truenamer spells is a FEATURE. I saw this line of thinking in smartphone ads, to explain why the fact that they did less than iPhone was a GOOD thing.

    I didn't buy it there either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    A similarly poor player is likely to have trouble making other classes work as well.
    See above sorceror.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I said tier 2 in high op environments. Why are you deliberately, repeatedly misrepresenting what I said?
    Classes don't change tier. Builds do. I can say that wizard is tier 6 in low op, because I can give it an int 9. That doesn't change the tier of the class. Just the tier of the build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I said tier 4 in normal conditions. Note that the actual comparisons were mostly to barbarian, a solid tier 4 class.
    Except that such a tier 4 class can build to 1 shot most CR appropriate encounters. Whereas the truenamer... cannot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Lovely. I'm sure a tier 4 class, barbarian, is fantastic at high levels with a similar lack of optimization. Also, a lack of investing WBL into his core class ability, hitting things. By level 20, he'll be almost entirely irrelevant.
    Half orc barbarian. 15 base strength. (17 after racial), levelups in Strength.
    Level 12. +1 flaming weapon, +4 strength item, weapon focus, power attack.
    +21 to hit, +24 raging.

    CR 12 encounters?
    ABYSSAL GREATER BASILISK - AC 17
    Adult Brass Dragon - AC 27
    Young Adult Bronze - AC 26
    Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal - AC 26
    Hydra, 11 headed - AC 21
    Frost Worm - AC 18
    Kolyarut - AC 27
    Kraken - AC 20
    Leonal - AC 27
    Purple Wurm - AC 19
    Roper - AC 24
    Mature Adult White Dragon - AC 28.

    Nope, such a barbarian can't hit at all. Not with 4 rages a day, and the ability to rage in most any combat. It needs a 4 to hit the highest AC on the list while raging. 2 if it charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, entirely ignoring tomes AND wishes...inherent bonuses in general...and I might add that wishes are fairly notably known rewards. They occur somewhat frequently as rewards in higher level prebuilt campaigns. A player that is not at all out specifically for them might get them, browse over the list and decide that hey, the safe list looks pretty good.
    Yep. Might get 5 wishes, over the course of the career, and since they're not cast back to back, might get a +1 to the main stat. Fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Right. Because I've never played low op before or met other low op players... cmon. Even the lowest op of players tend to figure out what the basic equipment for their class is. If a melee character fails to invest in a magic weapon, he'll suck a lot. Like, terribly. That's pretty extreme low op, though. ANY class can be made to suck if you choose exceedingly poorly.
    I treat the Silver amulet that gives you a +10 to your Truespeak along the same lines as a melee character getting a magic weapon. You know, a low-op choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    If I was operating with simply books instead of an op perspective, I'd be UMDing core skill boosting spell items to automatically pass checks. Meh. I can make a truenamer work quite decently with just ToM and core.
    ...good for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    You literally cannot miss the +4 bonus from knowing your own truename. It is an automatic class feature that you get too early to miss via prestige classes. If you are a truenamer, you have this ability, done deal. Therefore, anything targetting yourself is more likely to work than you have portrayed.
    Yep, +2 DC for using a personal truename, +4 to the check for using yours. Net bonus? +2 to checks targeting yourself. Congratulations, a great reason to not target the enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I've already pointed out that I've only taken the obvious options from those books. The bog standard things that do not require creative use of other skills, party members, or knowledge of other people's spells. I only assume that they read the truenaming section, and the basic character creation section(race, skills, feats, equipment). If you fail to read how those things work, you will likely do pretty terribly with anything. It's not like I included the bonus from, say, the ioun stone, which is also core.
    And pored over the DMG item lists for 127000gp tomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Er, "autopenetrate SR" is not a low power, low op standard thing.
    It's in the description for truenaming as an automatic option available to anyone that uses truename magic. I'd certainly expect a player to be more familiar with that, than, say, page 268 of the DMG.

    In fact, it's in a bold text, under UTTERANCES, on page 232. It's in the freakin' overview section for speaking utterances.

    I think universal options available to all truenamers are about as High Op as casting defensively. (in fact, the bypass SR option is right beside "Uttering Defensively")

    Care to try that one again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Not everything needs to target the boss. You can, say, target your party members. Note that friendlies are targetted by HD. So, if one of them is level drained or has LA? He's now easier to heal/buff.

    Uh, 15 + 23 * 2 = 61. So no, not 66.
    Boss has SR 35+.
    Increase DC by 5, automatically overcome Spell Resistance.

    There's that basic Truespeak option again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Long story short, a low powered, low op, low experience tier 4 party facing a CR 23 enemy at level 20 is SCREWED. The truenamer happens to be marginally less so, but the party's still all going to die. This makes him a very solid tier 4.
    You and I seem to have differing definitions of "marginally less so". See? I see "Tynd compared Truenamer to generic sack of HP, and Barbarian to Solar and Dragon.

    So, let's look. SR 32 Solar. That 50% hit chance? Either 25% to bypass the SR, or 30% to try your luck pushing that SR through, even on your numbers. Then obliterated by Solar.

    Dragon? SR 29-30. Without spells or feats. Again, very low chance.

    See? Once we start actually applying monster abilities to the Truenamer as well, like we did to the barbarian, suddenly things start to fall into place.

    Such a CR 23 would ideally be a capstone fight, to end a campaign. But even so, CR 21 should be a doable fight. And it's not.

    You have all these wonderful thoughts, but without serious opti-fu, a truenamer will not be quickening much. They'll have an unreliable time even hitting. And every time after the first? The chance goes even lower.

    That CR 20 at the end of a day, when the Truenamer has already used his abilities 2-3 times each? Suddenly, that CR 20 may as well be a CR 23.

    That's why truenamer is bad. Like, really. Yes, it can be made good. But you NEED to use multiple abilities outside the class to even make its class ability viable.
    All of this has happened before...
    and all of this will happen again.

    Moving. Internet access is a bit spotty.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Candycorn & Tyndmyr, if you want yo continue arguing, please do it via PM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I see Zaq has left a post or two open for builds such as a gestalt build. Well would like to see the most optimised gestalt build can pull off. Well currently thinking of while having Truenamer on one side uninterrupted the other side sprinkled to gain the most out of the Truespeak check. So far I have Truenamer 20//Marshal 1/Factotum 2/?/Exemplar 1-10. On the non Truenamer side how can this be optimised even more?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    If you have a decent Cha would Marshal 1 be worth the dip?
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    It would for you get Minor Auras at starting at level 1. The Minor Auras grant Cha mod to the aura. Select Motivate Intelligence which affects all Int checks. So if you have a 18 Charisma when you activate that aura you gain +4 to all of your Int skill checks including Truespeak. So for the know-it-all Truenamers can pull off two more utterences as well as increasing knowledge checks for Knowledge Devotion.

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    I did go into a brief discussion of the Marshal under Multiclassing. Basically, it depends on just how good your CHA is, how desperate you are for bonuses, and what, if anything, you're giving up by losing a level of Truenamer progression. If you do decide to dip into Marshal, remember that you get armor proficiency out of it, and utterances don't have ASF or anything like that.

    As for gestalt, that's a thorny subject, since I've never actually played a gestalt game, Truenamer or no Truenamer. My thought is that Truenamer is a very attention-demanding class (definitely the "active" side of the gestalt), so you'd definitely need to pair it with a nice passive class that won't demand too many actions. It's a toss-up as to whether you want to spend more than a level or two directly improving your Truespeak check. As I've shown, it's entirely possible to get your Truespeak check up to where you want it with just Truenamer 20 . . . there's just an opportunity cost for doing so. Whether that opportunity cost stays equally worth it in gestalt really depends on what you're trying to do. My gut says that it might be more worthwhile to just use standard Truenamer tricks and not interrupt your other side's progression with Marshal dips here and Exemplar dips there, but I freely admit that I have not yet delved into the specifics of the subject. I guess it depends on whether you want gestalt to make you a "Truenamer-plus" . . . or a "Truenamer, plus something else," if you catch the distinction. Off the cuff, I'd say that Factotum, Incarnate, Warlock, and Artificer would be good pairings.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2011-09-11 at 09:09 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleKing View Post
    I see Zaq has left a post or two open for builds such as a gestalt build. Well would like to see the most optimised gestalt build can pull off. Well currently thinking of while having Truenamer on one side uninterrupted the other side sprinkled to gain the most out of the Truespeak check. So far I have Truenamer 20//Marshal 1/Factotum 2/?/Exemplar 1-10. On the non Truenamer side how can this be optimised even more?
    I'd definitely go all the way to 8 on factotum for cunning surge. It's good on truenamers, just like it's good on everyone else. The only question is what to do with that one extra level.
    Last edited by Geigan; 2011-09-11 at 01:50 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I did go into a brief discussion of the Marshal under Multiclassing. Basically, it depends on just how good your CHA is, how desperate you are for bonuses, and what, if anything, you're giving up by losing a level of Truenamer progression. If you do decide to dip into Marshal, remember that you get armor proficiency out of it, and utterances don't have ASF or anything like that.

    As for gestalt, that's a thorny subject, since I've never actually played a gestalt game, Truenamer or no Truenamer. My thought is that Truenamer is a very attention-demanding class (definitely the "active" side of the gestalt), so you'd definitely need to pair it with a nice passive class that won't demand too many actions. It's a toss-up as to whether you want to spend more than a level or two directly improving your Truespeak check . . . as I've shown, it's entirely possible to get your Truespeak check up to where you want it with just Truenamer 20 . . . there's just an opportunity cost for doing so. Whether that opportunity cost stays equally worth it in gestalt really depends on what you're trying to do. My gut says that it might be more worthwhile to just use standard Truenamer tricks and not interrupt your other side's progression with Marshal dips here and Exemplar dips there, but I freely admit that I have not yet delved into the specifics of the subject. I guess it depends on whether you want gestalt to make you a "Truenamer-plus" . . . or a "Truenamer, plus something else," if you catch the distinction. Off the cuff, I'd say that Factotum, Incarnate, Warlock, and Artificer would be good pairings.
    Actually I could see potential on the passive side.

    1) A lot of utterances are very nice out of combat and utility. You can heal, remove status effects,and fix items. If you focus on this stuff you are using your truenamer abilities as a tool box rather than muscle which will help you not have to go as insane in the truespeack optimization.

    2) Quickended utterances- If you do take the time to improve your true speak then you can use quicken at high levels and so any of your utterances can be used as a swift action. If your class does not use swift actions much then you can get some lileage from that.

    It isn't wizard but it has some nice stuff in it.

    Factotum has some nice stuff but unless you have a lot of different combat utterances that you can use in the same round (or your DM allows the different DC's trick) then the law of sequence will limit your potential.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Well guess should have clarified looking for the most optimised "Truenamer plus" gestalt build. I'll give my opinion on Warlock, Artificer, and Factotum. I haven't played the Incarnum classes enough to speak definitively other than adding a "something else" the character.

    Warlock:
    Spoiler
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    The Warlock adds skills not on the Truenamers list. Also takes care of the damage side with the eldritch blast. Decieve Item helps if focusing on the Use Magic Device. If doing that then the Charisma mod should be good so can pick up invocations that have saves. The Fiendish Resilience, Damage Reduction, and Energy Resistance helps with survivalability plus negating the need for picking some utterances directed at self leaving them to be used on others if picked. Some invocations duplicate several effects as some utterances so can choose other utterances. Same could be said for DFA.


    Artificer:
    Spoiler
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    Main part helping a Truenamer is crafting Amulet of Silver Tongue. The other part is enhancing Use Magic Device. Otherwise it is mostly a "something else" type character through crafting. Has synergy with the Truenamer by also focusing on Intelligence.


    Factotum:
    Spoiler
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    Now we have a class that just makes anything better. Brains over Brawns helps with Str and Dex checks since may have dumped them. Now the crown jewel is Cunning Knowledge. A 1/day/skill spend 1 inspiration point to gain your FACTOTUM LEVEL AS A BONUS ON THE SKILL CHECK. So with this a gestalt Truenamer 20//Factotum 20 can gain a +20 on one Truespeak skill check that day. Great for when you need the utterance to work that day. Not to mention several other abilities that can do similar things as some utterances. Oh did I forget to mention Factotums have EVERY skill as a class skill.


    Here is what I have so far as for an highly optimised a "Truenamer plus" gestalt build.
    Spoiler
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    Lets start with an Illumian with Naen for Int checks as one of the Power Sigils. The other could be either Hoon or Krau. Hoon helps with Constitution and Wisdom checks including skill checks. Krau adds a +1 CL on spell and SLAs. Level 2 increases this to +2 and Enhanced Power Sigil can increase this to +3 or +4. Only Naenhoon is somewhat useful if a divine caster or say Factotum which does get Turn Undead. Add feats such as Heroic Destiny for a +1d6 on one d20 roll/day. So Truenamer 20//Marshal 1/Factotum 8/Chameleon 10 or Exemplar 10. The last level can be anything really. Doing this can see having starting off with 18 Int and 18 Cha with Wish upto +5 on Int and tomes +5 Int and level ups +5 and Ring of Magnificence +6 to all stats:

    23 ranks+Int 14+enhanced sigils 4?+ Skill Focus 3+Minor Aura 7+ 4 if Exemplar and +1-3 to Int mod if Chameleon+ Greater Amulet of Silvertongue 10+ Masterwork Item 2+ Paragnostic Assembly 10= static Truespeak modifer of 80 if Truenamer 20//Maeshal 1/Factotum 8/ Chameleon 10/ Exemplar 1. Can burst it upto 119 if you use Heroic Destiny, Guidance of the Avatar, Cunning Knowledge, and Universal Aptitude. Didn't even include Item Familiar since not sure how that works. So so far on a gestalt character with the highest optimisation could see having a static 80 modifer on Truespeak.


    Is a static Truespeak mod of 80 with able to burst upto 119 the highest it can go? Is my math right?

    Edit: Yes I know this is unrealistic, but wanted to see the cap of the ability.
    Last edited by TurtleKing; 2011-09-11 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    @Zaq
    Great guide! Better than Solo's, TG's or my own attempts

    @TurtleKing:
    If you pile even more cheese on Zaq's 5/5 cheese, you can get to +108 at level 12. The following build uses and perhaps abuses much of the poor editing found in the Truenaming chapter, and relies on rules interactions that don't happen often and might require DM adjudication: Cheesy Truenamer. (It also is 60% above WBL, as I misread the PHBII web enhancement. As the main focus is truespeak, if I were to ever update the build (which is unlikely, because I currently DM and don't throw that kind of thought experiment at my players), I would change other parts of the equipment so that Truespeak remains intact.)

    If you crank the dial up even further, Garblers, a kind of monster found in the Tome of Magic, automatically succeed on Truespeak checks. This ability is found in the monster description at the place where racial skill bonuses are noted, so it can be argued that you gain this ability via polymorph.
    Last edited by Aharon; 2011-09-11 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Well I was going for static modifiers instead of quick boosts unless all of those scepters grant a continous bonus. The theorycrafting I did also included the ways I know of boosting it the top over what can do automatically. So say you take that Illumian Truenamer 20//Marshal 1/Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Exemplar 1 can against a CR 20 have 13 "free" Truespeaks before having to roll.

    Edit: As for WBL I pretty much ignored that in seeing what the most optimised can get to. The Ring of Magnificience adding +6 to all stats alone is 200K gold.
    Last edited by TurtleKing; 2011-09-11 at 06:31 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleKing View Post
    Well I was going for static modifiers instead of quick boosts unless all of those scepters grant a continous bonus.
    If the build actually works (I admit I have no damn clue on looking at it, but if you actually got to play it in ToS it's probably either good or where it fails is incredibly hard to detect), then yes. He's using Rebuild Item to continuously reuse an 'oil' of Metamagic Item: Persistent Spell, and then applying that effect to a stack of wands of Universal Aptitude, using the interpretation that a Heightened Utterance is a different Utterance for purposes of the Law of Sequence.. so basically some rather exotic Persist cheese used to stack Universal Aptitudes.

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    That still is limited in Rebuild Item is uttered only som many times before the DC gets too high. I know there is a limit just trying find a way to get it has high as possible. Another thing is that rebuilding the items eats up your actions since have to do it immediately. The way presented didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleKing View Post
    That still is limited in Rebuild Item is uttered only som many times before the DC gets too high. I know there is a limit just trying find a way to get it has high as possible. Another thing is that rebuilding the items eats up your actions since have to do it immediately. The way presented didn't.
    Eh. Most people don't consider all-day effects like that to be 'eating up your actions' any more than a Wizard taking an hour at the start of the day to prep his spells is wasting time he could be doing something productive. It's a buff routine that can be done well in advance of when you actually need the effects.. and if you're optimizing your Truespeak to this point, I'm pretty sure you can Rebuild Item a dozen times or so before Resistance even starts to give you a chance of failure.

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    @Tyckspoon
    It was submitted... Unfortunately, as the Test of Spite team was short on sheet checkers, I never got feedback on wether I made any mistakes. I think there were only 30something sheets to be checked before mine before the test went on hiatus
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    Good guide, almost makes me want to roll one up to act as a balance against my op-fu. One thing I think is really sad about the personal truename mechanic is it could have been built around buffing your party and yourself; granting extra actions, temporary invincibility, tons of temp HP that lasts one turn, etc.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Don't be sad; homebrew to the rescue. Kellus and Kyeudo did a bang-up job.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Candycorn & Tyndmyr, if you want yo continue arguing, please do it via PM.
    Little danger of that. I'm pretty much done with this until he addresses what I'm actually posting instead of sarcastic "here, let me fix that for you" edits and the like.

    Now...the more interesting question...does a Heightened X count as separate from an X for the law of sequence? I don't know of any RAW specifically clarifying this...is there any for the similar case of spells?
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