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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Then go, be free.

    Seriously though you may be faceing foes with such high CR's that hitting them is imposible even for epic wealth. I would pick utterances focused on quickened self buffs and area effects that bypass individual target CRs.

    Also the capstone for Warblade is your friend, but take your first four epic levels in MoTN. Next level you will be able to be in three stances at once. That and being able to pull out a heal (devoted spirit final strike) at will is nice for undoing, well, everything bad that can happen to you.

    If you take font of insperation a few times you are looking at a tremendous number of actions a round without magic.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    A general thought:

    I just realized something that might be awesome if you have a DM working with specific fluff. The feat Aereni Focus from...Player's Guide to Eberron, I think, gives you a +3 bonus on a skill. Additionally, it's always a class skill for you. Lastly, it counts as Skill Focus for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, but doesn't say anything about being unable to take Skill Focus as well.

    Could an elf with Aereni Focus and Skill Focus be a decent Truenamer base at low levels? You wouldn't need any Able Learner/factotum/Truename Training business to keep Truespeak as a class skill, and you get a +3 untyped bonus while you're at it. Seems pretty good to me, but what do y'all think?
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2011-09-12 at 04:05 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Then go, be free.

    Seriously though you may be faceing foes with such high CR's that hitting them is imposible even for epic wealth. I would pick utterances focused on quickened self buffs and area effects that bypass individual target CRs.

    Also the capstone for Warblade is your friend, but take your first four epic levels in MoTN. Next level you will be able to be in three stances at once. That and being able to pull out a heal (devoted spirit final strike) at will is nice for undoing, well, everything bad that can happen to you.

    If you take font of insperation a few times you are looking at a tremendous number of actions a round without magic.
    I can get up to a 100+ truename mod easily, how is their CR gonna be so high that it's impossible to hit them? And even if I can't, I have warblade to be all like blam, axe to face. Or some other super weapon.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    If you're starting at level, say, 27, what's the best way to work out how much wealth you've lost to the Paragnostic Assembly? WBL is crazy at Epic levels, and losing 10% or more of that huge number is an enormous hit. Is this one of those "work it out with your DM" kind of things, or has anyone come up with a good method of dealing with this?
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Starting at level 27? Who would start at such a preposterous number? I'm watching you, Ragged!
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    Hulking Hurler can get something like (10^83)d6 damage, which is many orders of magnitude greater than the number of particles in the universe.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    If you're starting at level, say, 27, what's the best way to work out how much wealth you've lost to the Paragnostic Assembly? WBL is crazy at Epic levels, and losing 10% or more of that huge number is an enormous hit. Is this one of those "work it out with your DM" kind of things, or has anyone come up with a good method of dealing with this?
    You run the Paragnostic Assembly (note: If you do not run the Paragnostic Assembly, well, that's what conjunctive gate is for). Fill out checks to yourself if it makes you feel better.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    You run the Paragnostic Assembly (note: If you do not run the Paragnostic Assembly, well, that's what conjunctive gate is for). Fill out checks to yourself if it makes you feel better.
    Mootoall? Does that sound awesome to you? Because I think it sounds like a great idea.

    Okay, follow-up question. Are there any good homebrew systems for Epic Truenaming? I'm about to start using my Google-foo, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask here.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Starting at level 27? Who would start at such a preposterous number? I'm watching you, Ragged!
    I had my player start at level 27 once, in an effort to visibly demonstrate the tier system to them. They fought a 17th level (20th level experience, crafted three levels away) wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil. It was eight on one. The wizard spent every single standard action he had for the fight drinking martinis.

    He killed them all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    I had my player start at level 27 once, in an effort to visibly demonstrate the tier system to them. They fought a 17th level (20th level experience, crafted three levels away) wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil. It was eight on one. The wizard spent every single standard action he had for the fight drinking martinis.

    He killed them all.
    This is probably the most outstanding thing I have read on these boards in a long time.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    I had my player start at level 27 once, in an effort to visibly demonstrate the tier system to them. They fought a 17th level (20th level experience, crafted three levels away) wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil. It was eight on one. The wizard spent every single standard action he had for the fight drinking martinis.

    He killed them all.
    I hope this was the kind of group that makes the "Fighters are awesome because they can use their weapons all day" and "Monks are awesome because they get so many abilities and attacks and stuff" arguments. I used to play with a group like that, until I got fed up with their terribleness.

    To put my old group into perspective, I played a Truenamer with them once. I had to stop playing her, because she dominated every combat. Think about that for a minute. Yeah.
    Last edited by RaggedAngel; 2011-10-02 at 07:10 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    If you're starting at level, say, 27, what's the best way to work out how much wealth you've lost to the Paragnostic Assembly? WBL is crazy at Epic levels, and losing 10% or more of that huge number is an enormous hit. Is this one of those "work it out with your DM" kind of things, or has anyone come up with a good method of dealing with this?
    epic WBL might be crazy, but epic magic item costs are similarly crazy. it's just a loss of 10%; it looks like big numbers, but really isn't all that big a deal comparatively.

    (still annoying, but not as much as having class features be useless.)

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    To put my old group into perspective, I played a Truenamer with them once. I had to stop playing her, because she dominated every combat. Think about that for a minute. Yeah.
    Did you roll behind a screen or something? Damn!

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward View Post
    Did you roll behind a screen or something? Damn!
    You have to understand; when the Fighter is using a Bastard Sword and a Tower Shield, the Monk is alternating between running around "to distract them" and using his Flurry of Misses and the Rogue is shooting a crossbow from 45 feet away a polished Truenamer is extremely versatile and powerful.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    I hope this was the kind of group that makes the "Fighters are awesome because they can use their weapons all day" and "Monks are awesome because they get so many abilities and attacks and stuff" arguments. I used to play with a group like that, until I got fed up with their terribleness.
    The group was:

    Monk 27 (The Inscrutable Master Girard): Built for kama use. Convinced that Monks were powerful caster-killers due to all-good saves and spell resistance. Smacked into a violet warding and failed his save, resulting in his transportation to Avernus.

    Fighter 17/Kensai 10 (The Duke of Truth and Loss): TWF, convinced his sheer number of attacks > any enemy. Espoused that fighters are versatile due to their many feats. Killed by summoned balor.

    Wizard 27 (Kratos): Evocation specialist, banned conjuration and abjuration. Didn't understand why blasting is sub-optimal. Killed by summoned balor.

    Swordsage 20/Master of Nine 5/Rogue 2: Focused on Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind, fought with a greatsword. Fairly competent, was tragically killed by a summoned balor.

    Bard 27: Tried being a buffamancer, got taken out by a warding that turned him to stone when he tried to charge the wizard.

    Cleric 27: Priest of Elhonna, memorized healing spells and summons. Called several animals to the battlefield (that couldn't penetrate the wardings) before being taken out by the summoned balor.

    Hexblade 27: "It's magic AND melee, man! You can't beat that!" Except the balor did, to the merry tune of the mage drinking martinis.

    Compwar Ex-Samurai 17/Ronin 10: "Class flavor and mechanics aren't separate, man! If you wanna be a samurai you should just play one!" Sadly found that even the fighter did better. Killed by summoned balor.

    Noticing a theme here?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    where'd the balor come from if the wizard was busy drinking martinis?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    where'd the balor come from if the wizard was busy drinking martinis?
    Party opted for three rounds of 'buff time'. Wizard used a scroll of delayed Gate, a protection from evil and the spell to conjure his lawn chair into his bag of holding during this time. Spent the whole fight sitting in said lawn chair, drinking martinis and occasionally hitting his 'no' button until the balor showed up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    I had my player start at level 27 once, in an effort to visibly demonstrate the tier system to them. They fought a 17th level (20th level experience, crafted three levels away) wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil. It was eight on one. The wizard spent every single standard action he had for the fight drinking martinis.

    He killed them all.
    I kind of want to sig this.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Feel free, I'm flattered.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    That was pretty amazing Lord Gareth.

    How many rounds did this combat last for?

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Seems like you could have just pit them against, say, two Balors and still won, which speaks to their optimization level instead of the tier system. Especially since they had T1 characters on their side. But still, immediate actions ftw.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Seems like you could have just pit them against, say, two Balors and still won, which speaks to their optimization level instead of the tier system. Especially since they had T1 characters on their side. But still, immediate actions ftw.
    the fact that the wizard is capable of trivially getting balors and pressing no buttons does say something about the tier system, however.

    optimization level more, perhaps, but.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Party opted for three rounds of 'buff time'. Wizard used a scroll of delayed Gate, a protection from evil and the spell to conjure his lawn chair into his bag of holding during this time. Spent the whole fight sitting in said lawn chair, drinking martinis and occasionally hitting his 'no' button until the balor showed up.
    I do hope that you announced the wizard's action each time his initiative came up.

    Still, a party of level 27s unable to take a balor or two? Something amiss here.

    There's a level 27 wizard, so he's got 4 epic feats, epic spellcasting (just because), multispell x2, automatic quicken spell (once only because you just qualified) makes for some powerful blasting if you have anything they're not resistant to.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-10-03 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    I do hope that you announced the wizard's action each time his initiative came up.

    Still, a party of level 27s unable to take a balor or two? Something amiss here.

    There's a level 27 wizard, so he's got 4 epic feats, epic spellcasting (just because), multispell x2, automatic quicken spell (once only because you just qualified) makes for some powerful blasting if you have anything they're not resistant to.
    Auto Quicken got nerfed in Complete Arcane, I believe. Instead of 0-3rd, it's 0th and 1st and then a new level each time you take it, so not necessarily a win button as before. I believe Auto Silent and Auto Still remain the same, however.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Auto Quicken got nerfed in Complete Arcane, I believe. Instead of 0-3rd, it's 0th and 1st and then a new level each time you take it, so not necessarily a win button as before. I believe Auto Silent and Auto Still remain the same, however.
    Hadn't heard that, its a good nerf (improved spell capacity isn't obviously a waste of a feat that could have gone to automatic quicken or multispell with that nerf).

    But it's not good enough to stop the might of Stupid Blaster Wizard Man!

    SBWM! gets 5 epic feats (not the four I gave him above), so he has multispellx4 and automatic quicken x1. He can cast 6 spells per round as long as 5 of them are either quickened or level 1.

    SBWM! spends the princely sum of 56,000 GP on four metamagic rods of maximize. Then, SBWM prepares a bog standard magic missile in every level 1 to 3 slot he has.

    Three Buffing Rounds: SBWM! sees no enemy to attack, he doesn't do anything but blast, so he sniffs some glue and then draws two rods.

    Round 1: SBWM! throws 5 magic missiles (all maximized) for 125 force damage, SR can't help against this (balor's SR is 28, SBWM has penetration of 31 or so at level 27, one does not autofail). SBWM drops a rod, and with his move action draws his third rod. For his spell he throws a cone of cold, hitting the balor for over 50 cold on average, the balor has resist cold 10 so only >40 gets through for >165 damage.

    Round 2: Thanks the the healbot cleric casting Mass Heal SBWM! is still on his feet, since the healbot failed to cast Holy Word (a nice level 7 spell that should be prepared and would trivially solve the balor problem) there are still two balors to deal with. SBWM! drops his other mostly expended rod, draws the last rod as a move action, and throws 5 more magic missiles for another 125 force damage, which puts the balor at >290 damage and it dies.

    "I wonder how the rest of the party is doing against the other Balor?" says SBWM!. Then he greater teleports away to his favorite magic mart to buy two replacement rods.

    I'm not sure I CAN make a less effective level 27 character than this. But he still kills a Balor fairly reliably in two turns.

    DougL
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-10-03 at 05:07 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Idk why he needs to buy new metamagic rods, given they're uses/day, not charged items.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Idk why he needs to buy new metamagic rods, given they're uses/day, not charged items.
    Don't question it. The mind of a player who looks at every single 1st-3rd level spell and thinks "man, these suck. Magic Missile for the win" is not a thing that you want to contemplate. It is a dark and scary place.

    Of course, maybe he likes playing incredibly inefficient Blaster Wizards. I mean, I've played two Truenamers and I'm about to play an Epic Truenamer, so I can hardly throw stones at weak character choices.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Idk why he needs to buy new metamagic rods, given they're uses/day, not charged items.
    Eh? Three reasons:
    (1) He's used 10 of his 12 uses already, and he has over a dozen magic missiles left.
    (2) He just teleported out of the fiasco and prior to that had dropped two rods, he needs to replace them with the spare pocket change he found in his sofa this morning.
    (3) He's SBWM!, SBWM! knows you can NEVER have too many quickened maximized magic missiles available, I'm honestly not sure what he's doing with his fourth level slots since they could also hold level 1 magic missiles and are clearly too weak to be otherwise useful since they can't hold Meteor Swarms or Empowered or Maximized Fireballs or Cones of Cold or anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaggedAngel View Post
    Don't question it. The mind of a player who looks at every single 1st-3rd level spell and thinks "man, these suck. Magic Missile for the win" is not a thing that you want to contemplate. It is a dark and scary place.
    Not true, SBWM! and his friends Useless Healbot Cleric Gal! Polish Minedetector Archer Rogue! And Fighter with Core Only Feats! Are a fine group to contemplate in the abstract. And as long as they only play with each other they may even be having fun with it (except the healbot, she's SOL unless she's only there to socialize and doesn't care about the game at all).

    In theory the game was designed arround people only slightly more optimized than they are.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-10-04 at 12:20 PM.

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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    SBWM! gets 5 epic feats (not the four I gave him above), so he has multispellx4 and automatic quicken x1. He can cast 6 spells per round as long as 5 of them are either quickened or level 1.
    Not so much. Additional Magic Item Space (Ring), Energy Resistance (Fire) x2, Epic Spell Penetration and Epic Spell Focus (Evocation).

    He also didn't choose or use any metamagic or item creation feats, for all future reference, the former because "they aren't really helpful" and the latter because "nothing is worth paying XP."

    You can see why I had the enemy mage drinking martinis.
    Last edited by Lord_Gareth; 2011-10-04 at 08:15 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    I finally did it. I went ahead and made a batch of Epic utterances, homework be damned. They're all (mostly) extensions of normal utterances, except that they should be level-appropriate for an Epic character.

    Here's the thread.
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    Default Re: In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Not so much. Additional Magic Item Space (Ring), Energy Resistance (Fire) x2, Epic Spell Penetration and Epic Spell Focus (Evocation).

    He also didn't choose or use any metamagic or item creation feats, for all future reference, the former because "they aren't really helpful" and the latter because "nothing is worth paying XP."

    You can see why I had the enemy mage drinking martinis.
    How odd, but that's an entirely different form of stupid, we need another acronym. SBWM! loves metamagic, he still pines for 3.0 when you could stack multiple empowers on the same spell. If he knew about non-core sources and could chain and split he'd love metamagic even more. And as for crafting, SBWM! started doing that after his first day of adventure when he got people to return to town after one encounter with kobolds rather than continuing, because that encounter gave him 75 XP and he had about 160 GP and thus could make a scroll of 12 level 1 spells and ray of frost (for only 12 XP since you round down) and never again worry about running out of slots.

    He's been crafting ever since because crafting saves money, money is power, and with POWER you can BLAST!
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-10-05 at 10:41 AM.

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