Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook

[agahii]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...igeClasses.htm

Here it is.

Still though, I think this is an oversight by the writers in many cases(confusing class level and character level). I will just houserule it and encourage other DMs to do the same, as many abilities are just terrible because of the wording.

[Sception]

Perfectly reasonable house rules aside, the 8th level dread necromancer ability replaces the entire normal animate dead pool with the new limit. Ie, if you gain additional spellcaster levels outside of Dread necromancer, they won't give any additional control limit, although they'll still let you animate more HD in a single casting, allowing larger minions. In addition, other sources of increased caster level even for a character with only dread necromancer levels will not increase their maximum animate dead control pool, because, again, the 8th level ability does not add to the normal caster-level based limit, it replaces it entirely with a new class-level (which, yes, means levels in that class) based limit. An 8th level dread necromancer doesn't look at caster level at all when figuring maximum pool size for Animate Dead.

It's annoying, but if you max out cha you can kind of ignore it. An 8th level dread necro with maxed out cha has about the same animate dead limit as a 20th level regular caster, barring caster level bonuses, so its not costing you anything if you do only take 8 levels, and that 8th level is still worthwhile for the advanced learning. And the extra HP for your creations isn't bad. And Dread Necro builds can be feat starved to the point of skipping the Corpse Crafter chain entirely, at which point it's a much more meaningful ability. But it's not the magic dump point that K described it as. Ideal dump point actually seems to be 1st (for limitless out of combat healing), 5th (for fear aura), or maybe 7th (for the fancy familiar).

[Sception]

Some issues with the Enervationist build: first, Arcane Thesis requires the spell be one you can cast before you take it - no biggie, just switch its spot with fell drain.

More significant: iirc, black lore of moil requires Spell Focus: Necromancy as a pre-req, which is going to require dumping a feat. Fortunately, Practical Metamagic is there to be dumped, since it has a pre-req of the dragonblooded subtype, which as far as I can tell you lack as a human in that build.

Quicken ends up costing you a spell level increase after all, but then again Enervation's the build's primary offensive tool, so you're probably going to be casting more of it then you'll have unused 4th level slots in a given day, anyway, so having to cast your quickened enervations with 5th or 6th level slots shouldn't be a big deal. You're probably using some of those slots on more enervation regardless.

Of course, dropping the last feat to add a new prereq pushes everything back three levels.... Ergh.


Oh, and a note on finding a Slaymate to play with: there's really no given means of creating one, so you're generally stuck begging the DM for one. But there is an end run around that - Polymorph Any Object, the same trick used to generate rare corpses for animation, can turn a small zombie into a slaymate. This should be a permanent change, but even with an unfavorable DM (who isn't so unfavorable as to ban slaymates outright), it should last at least a week. Of course, access to PAO can be an issue - it's available by arcane disciple (trickery), by UMDing scrolls or staves, by begging uses from a wizardly fellow party member, or, potentially, by paying a 15th level npc wizard to cast it for you - provided you can find one willing to do so - at a cost of 1,200 gold.

The resulting slaymate would be vulnerable to both turning and dispelling, but it is about the only reliable in-game way I can think of to get one.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some issues with the Enervationist build: first, Arcane Thesis requires the spell be one you can cast before you take it - no biggie, just switch its spot with fell drain.

More significant: iirc, black lore of moil requires Spell Focus: Necromancy as a pre-req, which is going to require dumping a feat. Fortunately, Practical Metamagic is there to be dumped, since it has a pre-req of the dragonblooded subtype, which as far as I can tell you lack as a human in that build.

Quicken ends up costing you a spell level increase after all, but then again Enervation's the build's primary offensive tool, so you're probably going to be casting more of it then you'll have unused 4th level slots in a given day, anyway, so having to cast your quickened enervations with 5th or 6th level slots shouldn't be a big deal. You're probably using some of those slots on more enervation regardless.

Of course, dropping the last feat to add a new prereq pushes everything back three levels.... Ergh.


Oh, and a note on finding a Slaymate to play with: there's really no given means of creating one, so you're generally stuck begging the DM for one. But there is an end run around that - Polymorph Any Object, the same trick used to generate rare corpses for animation, can turn a small zombie into a slaymate. This should be a permanent change, but even with an unfavorable DM (who isn't so unfavorable as to ban slaymates outright), it should last at least a week. Of course, access to PAO can be an issue - it's available by arcane disciple (trickery), by UMDing scrolls or staves, by begging uses from a wizardly fellow party member, or, potentially, by paying a 15th level npc wizard to cast it for you - provided you can find one willing to do so - at a cost of 1,200 gold.

The resulting slaymate would be vulnerable to both turning and dispelling, but it is about the only reliable in-game way I can think of to get one.

Since the Slaymate provides an untyped bonus, it stacks with itself, and thus using the PAO trick, you can get unlimited slaymates and never have to worry about metamagic modifiers ever again. If you're particularly paranoid, there's ways to protect them. Shrink them and put them in your Haversack, for example.

[JaronK]

Wouldn't that be an untyped bonus from the same source, and thus not stack?

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wouldn't that be an untyped bonus from the same source, and thus not stack?

JaronK

It's coming from two different Slaymates...

If multiple Nightsticks is valid, so is multiple Slaymates.

[Sception]

Of course, typically speaking multiple nightsticks isn't valid (talking actual gameplay, not RAW here). It's worth tacking on a 'watch out for flying DMGs' note, anyway, as something likely to get barred in actual play.

A Slaymate in a haversack - wouldn't you still have to pull it out to use it, since while in the sack it would in an extra dimensional space, and thus not w/in 5' of any space in the material plane? Not a problem with the plan, just something to note.

Shrinking them I'd heavily endorse, along with any other persistent or long duration effects of lower level then Polymorph Any Object you can put on them, just to soak up a dispel effect before losing the polymorph. Same theory as rolling with a number of tiny or smaller zombies (or even filling small crates with them and lashing the crates to the insides of your bigger skeletons' rib cages), just to soak a turning check or two.

[Amphetryon]

It's coming from two different Slaymates...

If multiple Nightsticks is valid, so is multiple Slaymates.

So, multiple Clerics casting Bless also stacks? Woohoo!

[Sception]

Bless is a morale bonus, not untyped. Most DMs are going to rule the same aura from multiple creatures as the same source, though.

[SirFredgar]

Before this hits the 6 week mark, I wanted to thank you Shneekey for the awesome handbook. It's helped my DN out immensely.

One thing I did want to point out is the Scarecrow build that incorporates Snowcasting. That feat has a CON 13 requirement, so any build that goes DN 20, or Necropolitian wouldn't be able to make use of it, or the line of tricks it produces.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Before this hits the 6 week mark, I wanted to thank you Shneekey for the awesome handbook. It's helped my DN out immensely.

One thing I did want to point out is the Scarecrow build that incorporates Snowcasting. That feat has a CON 13 requirement, so any build that goes DN 20, or Necropolitian wouldn't be able to make use of it, or the line of tricks it produces.

Even without Snowcasting, it still produces an aura that Frightens, rather than Panics, opponents. Snowcasting is just there so Aura of Terror deals damage and thus is able to have Fell Frighten applied to it.

[SirFredgar]

Even without Snowcasting, it still produces an aura that Frightens, rather than Panics, opponents. Snowcasting is just there so Aura of Terror deals damage and thus is able to have Fell Frighten applied to it.

Yes, but then it becomes a single advanced learning selection than a feat chain to make it beastly. I was very interested in the Normal-to-panic ability that build generated, and was wondering if you knew of any other way to get similiar effects from a more undead friendly feat chain. The lock down your build manages is amazing, and I'd hate to loose it for a handfull of immunities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but then it becomes a single advanced learning selection than a feat chain to make it beastly. I was very interested in the Normal-to-panic ability that build generated, and was wondering if you knew of any other way to get similiar effects from a more undead friendly feat chain. The lock down your build manages is amazing, and I'd hate to loose it for a handfull of immunities.

To be honest? Anything that increases Fear by a step will do the job. I simply went a more convoluted route because it's entirely passive, but you could just as easily be casting Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave Mist to soften up targets (making them Shaken), then watch as they hit Panicked when they reach your Aura.

Heck, just use Fearful Empowerment, since you already have Dread Witch. There's your fear boost right there.

[NEXxREX]

{{scrubbed}}

[SirFredgar]

{{scrubbed}}
First of all: Undead Mastery at 8 is AMAZING.... only if you continue in Dread Necromancer as he suggested. Because those bonus HD undead mastery gives you only apply to your Dread Necro class levels.... not caster levels.

Mathmatically Speaking, at level 8 Dread necromancer grants you 128 HD to play with (assuming a +12 charisma Modifier, which isn't likely at 8). At level twelve you get 192, a difference of 64HD of undead you are missing out on. Every level after 8th you do not take in Dread Necromancer is 16 hd of minions you've lost. Seems pretty significant for a minionmancy build, does it not?

Also, for a dread necromancer with a fixed spell list, being able to add a spell at 12, custom tailored to your build, is nothing to sneeze at. Most of the time these PrCs you mentioned (which ones?) continue your fixed spell list... so this addition is useful throughout.

So, yeah... dread necro 8 is a trap. Read first, then post, plz.

EDIT: My initial math was way off, not sure why.

[Heatwizard]

{{scrubbed}}
Eighth level as a drop point is a trap. He's saying if you go to Dread Necro 8, you gain so much by sticking around (and you waste it so thoroughly if you take off) that to drop it then is foolish.

Also:
{{scrubbed}}
Per CLASS level, not caster level. Levels in the class called Dread Necromancer. Your caster level doesn't have anything to do with it. The only prestige class that progresses your cap after Dread Necro 8 is Uncanny Trickster.

Also, you want him to be objective(that's the one without biases) and not subjective(the one with).

[danzibr]

Thanks for the guide Shneekey! I love DN's even though I've never played one. We stick with good groups... someday though.

Also sorry for the hate you're getting. I think it's a good guide.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

stuff

You know... I was going to type out a long and reasoned response to this...

Then I realized someone probably just made the account for the expressed purpose of trolling this thread. Check out the created date and the profile... one post made by user... wow, if that isn't obvious, I don't know what is.

What I found particularly amusing was that his suggestion that Aura of Terror or Animate Dread Warrior was not worth a four level investment, when the former gives you no-action Frightened aura and the later gives you minions with class levels...

[Benly]

I'm going to have to hop on the "Pale Master is not actually that bad" bandwagon here. It's not one of the All-Time Greatest PrCs, of course - it's no incantatrix, it's no ScM, whatever. I know that's not actually your problem with it.

Your problem is that first level, and that first level is ugly. Now look at the class and imagine some of the abilities were shuffled around a bit - no new abilities, but just imagine for a moment that, say, undead graft at level 5 and deathless vigor at level 4 were shifted down to that first level to offset the lack of spellcasting.

Suddenly it's a 9/10 casting class with no dead levels, some extremely good abilities (free cohort, armor without ASF, useful spell with a material component turned into a no-components SLA, breaking the control limit.) That version of the Pale Master is about as good as a 9/10 casting class gets for a necromancer, and the important thing is that it's the same Pale Master. The only difference between that solid 9/10 class with no dead levels and the much-maligned Pale Master is that, for no reason obvious to me, the designers decided not to put any of its abilities at first level. After a few levels in the class, there's absolutely no difference between these two versions.

So, yes, that first level is ugly, and it's a huge psychological barrier to entering the class - but the class as a whole is perfectly fine, and after a few levels you won't feel the sting. You'll be too busy laughing maniacally as your endless horde of 100% free, 100% disposable minions chews off your enemies' faces.


Edit: I guess I'm preaching to the choir, since I see your minion-master build is DN10/PM10. Which does raise the question of why you call the PrC "generally subpar".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm going to have to hop on the "Pale Master is not actually that bad" bandwagon here. It's not one of the All-Time Greatest PrCs, of course - it's no incantatrix, it's no ScM, whatever. I know that's not actually your problem with it.

Your problem is that first level, and that first level is ugly. Now look at the class and imagine some of the abilities were shuffled around a bit - no new abilities, but just imagine for a moment that, say, undead graft at level 5 and deathless vigor at level 4 were shifted down to that first level to offset the lack of spellcasting.

Suddenly it's a 9/10 casting class with no dead levels, some extremely good abilities (free cohort, armor without ASF, useful spell with a material component turned into a no-components SLA, breaking the control limit.) That version of the Pale Master is about as good as a 9/10 casting class gets for a necromancer, and the important thing is that it's the same Pale Master. The only difference between that solid 9/10 class with no dead levels and the much-maligned Pale Master is that, for no reason obvious to me, the designers decided not to put any of its abilities at first level. After a few levels in the class, there's absolutely no difference between these two versions.

So, yes, that first level is ugly, and it's a huge psychological barrier to entering the class - but the class as a whole is perfectly fine, and after a few levels you won't feel the sting. You'll be too busy laughing maniacally as your endless horde of 100% free, 100% disposable minions chews off your enemies' faces.


Edit: I guess I'm preaching to the choir, since I see your minion-master build is DN10/PM10. Which does raise the question of why you call the PrC "generally subpar".

Well, you see, this word 'generally' means 'usually, but not always'. There are uses for the class, and I did point out the same things you did... good for a minion and infinite disposable minions... but generally... it's not really all that powerful.

Usually, you either don't care about using a bardic cohort to boost your minions, or are taking Animate Dread Warrior to make your own, so the cohort is mostly icing on the cake, and you have to jump through significant hoops to net unlimited zombies.

From time to time, however, it does have its uses and can be useful.

[Benly]

Usually, you either don't care about using a bardic cohort to boost your minions, or are taking Animate Dread Warrior to make your own, so the cohort is mostly icing on the cake, and you have to jump through significant hoops to net unlimited zombies.

From time to time, however, it does have its uses and can be useful.

The only "significant hoop" you have to jump through for rendering your minions endlessly disposable is taking two levels of the class. The hoop-jumping only comes if you want to break the fundamental rules of how Animate Dead and its minion allowance work

My feeling is that a prestige class isn't supposed to be "better than the base in every regard", and that the ones that are tend to be outliers like the aforementioned incantatrix and shadowcraft mage. Pale Master is more like Malconvoker: if you want to be good at the theme of the PrC (undead minions or summoning respectively), the PrC will make you much better at it with very little overall tradeoff. If you're not interested in what the PrC is about, you don't take it, but that's true of any PrC. What makes a PrC subpar is if it's not all that great at what it's supposed to be about, which is not the case with Pale Master.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The only "significant hoop" you have to jump through for rendering your minions endlessly disposable is taking two levels of the class. The hoop-jumping only comes if you want to break the fundamental rules of how Animate Dead and its minion allowance work

My feeling is that a prestige class isn't supposed to be "better than the base in every regard", and that the ones that are tend to be outliers like the aforementioned incantatrix and shadowcraft mage. Pale Master is more like Malconvoker: if you want to be good at the theme of the PrC (undead minions or summoning respectively), the PrC will make you much better at it with very little overall tradeoff. If you're not interested in what the PrC is about, you don't take it, but that's true of any PrC. What makes a PrC subpar is if it's not all that great at what it's supposed to be about, which is not the case with Pale Master.

/sigh

Starting at 2nd level, a pale master begins
to exercise control over the undead. Once per day, he can use
animate dead, as the spell, without need of a material component.

Bolded for emphasis. once per day is not endless by any means.

The ability I refer to is actually the capstone, the zombies created therein bypass the normal HD cap for theoretically infinite undead. However, that ability was severely nerfed by the times per day that occurred when it was updated to 3.5 in LM.

If you want unlimited undead creation without onyx, there's far better ways to do it than taking this PrC. The only significant redeeming features of this class are a) bypassing HD cap of undead under your control, and b) Cohort. Nothing else is worth bothering with. Ever. Your base class abilities from Dread Necromancer are far more powerful than anything else this class has to offer.

[Benly]

I've read the class quite well, but thanks for the sarcastic sigh!

I tend to forget that other people don't have my personal bias against spellstitching (its pricing structure is nearly inverted from any other crafting in the game, there's a tendency to assume that temporary Wisdom bonuses are resolved entirely in the player's favor, and it costs an amount of XP that is not going to be chump change if you want it at any reasonable level, especially after you've already spent a full level's worth of XP to become necropolitan.) Other than spellstitching (and Dweomerkeeper if you manage to get away with that one, I suppose), there aren't really methods for free undead that are superior to Pale Master 2. Fell Animate only gets you zombies (generally inferior to skeletons) and won't work on anything that dies before you get to it, Necrocarnum Circlet gets you exactly one at a time, and so on.

Again, I'm not saying "you should always take Pale Master, all the time", but in terms of a build that focuses on undead minions it is a solid enough class that I don't consider it subpar.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've read the class quite well, but thanks for the sarcastic sigh!

I tend to forget that other people don't have my personal bias against spellstitching (its pricing structure is nearly inverted from any other crafting in the game, there's a tendency to assume that temporary Wisdom bonuses are resolved entirely in the player's favor, and it costs an amount of XP that is not going to be chump change if you want it at any reasonable level, especially after you've already spent a full level's worth of XP to become necropolitan.) Other than spellstitching (and Dweomerkeeper if you manage to get away with that one, I suppose), there aren't really methods for free undead that are superior to Pale Master 2. Fell Animate only gets you zombies (generally inferior to skeletons) and won't work on anything that dies before you get to it, Necrocarnum Circlet gets you exactly one at a time, and so on.

Again, I'm not saying "you should always take Pale Master, all the time", but in terms of a build that focuses on undead minions it is a solid enough class that I don't consider it subpar.

And again... it's only once per day. I prefer to be able to do my primary shtick more than once a day, thanks.

Fell Animate is, at best, a band-aid, yes. However, when combined with Fell Drain and Kelgore's Grave Mist, it works out fairly well to create large swarms of low-end disposable explosive minions.

As far as getting it as a spell-like ability, there's plenty of ways. Heck, Archmage pulls it off handily, although qualifying might be a bit tricky. But Spellstitched is generally the easiest way to go, since you're only duplicating a 3rd level spell, you only need a Wis of 13, which means an xp cost of 6.5k, and can use it more often, without screwing over... well... pretty much everything about your character with a completely dead level.

No temporary wisdom bonuses necessary, and not an exorbitant xp cost by any means.

Now, if you were wanting to get, for example, Animate Dread Warrior and get things like Uberchargers as pets, now THAT would require a Wis score of 19+, which would require such hoops as you required. However, it would be 1/day 'I now have a better pet than the party beatstick', not 1/day 'I have another skeleton which will probably die in the next encounter'.

Pale Master does have uses. The animate dead SLA, however, is merely the icing on the cake. It's the Cohort that is worth the price of admission.

[Madara]

I did a fair amount of work on the Minions, you've seen it before, but I'll link it.

I got a little trigger-happy with the colors.


Also, I still believe that Pounce isn't kept by skeletons. It's a special attack, not quality. But keep it your way if you want.

[Benly]

As far as getting it as a spell-like ability, there's plenty of ways. Heck, Archmage pulls it off handily, although qualifying might be a bit tricky. But Spellstitched is generally the easiest way to go, since you're only duplicating a 3rd level spell, you only need a Wis of 13, which means an xp cost of 6.5k, and can use it more often, without screwing over... well... pretty much everything about your character with a completely dead level.

Archmage just shifts it from a material cost to an XP cost - acceptable if you're into "XP is a river", but not really nullifying. Still, I grant that it's probably less of a hit than a caster level loss would be particularly if your GM goes with XP as a river, and I'd pretty much forgotten about it. (Rather, I'd forgotten that Archmage did that weird halfway-ignoring-components thing rather than simply retaining components - I remembered that it kept XP components and forgot that it converted material components.)

Spellstitching can only be done by a wizard or sorcerer, which means a fourth-level spell, which means 7500 XP, which is a fair slab - if Spellstitching followed conventional pricing schemes rather than its own wacky unique pricing scheme, it would be pushing the borderline of epic-level items. This ties into my other problems with spellstitching, which are more GM-side, and honestly if spellstitching is going to be the focus of conversation I should probably bow out - its pricing scheme is spectacularly broken in a fairly obvious way, but it is officially published material, so while my personal feeling is that it belongs in the same bin as the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, that's just a personal feeling and a player at a table where it's allowed should presumably take advantage of it.

I still feel that Pale Master is, on the whole, above average as PrCs go, but falls prey to the "one lost caster level = might as well commit suicide" mentality compounded by the starkly odd design of pushing all its features away from the first level. Personally I find one lost caster level tolerable, but if you don't, it's going to be ignored like any other 9/10 PrC will be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Spellstitching can only be done by a wizard or sorcerer, which means a fourth-level spell, which means 7500 XP, which is a fair slab - if Spellstitching followed conventional pricing schemes rather than its own wacky unique pricing scheme, it would be pushing the borderline of epic-level items. This ties into my other problems with spellstitching, which are more GM-side, and honestly if spellstitching is going to be the focus of conversation I should probably bow out - its pricing scheme is spectacularly broken in a fairly obvious way, but it is officially published material, so while my personal feeling is that it belongs in the same bin as the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, that's just a personal feeling and a player at a table where it's allowed should presumably take advantage of it.

Sanctum Spell. It's back to a 3rd level spell. Slaymate. Now it's a 2nd. Shall I go on? These also work in combination with metamagic-reducing abilities to make you able to pull things off like Split Ray Twin Spell Empowered Enervation out of a 4th level spell slot.

I still feel that Pale Master is, on the whole, above average as PrCs go, but falls prey to the "one lost caster level = might as well commit suicide" mentality compounded by the starkly odd design of pushing all its features away from the first level. Personally I find one lost caster level tolerable, but if you don't, it's going to be ignored like any other 9/10 PrC will be.

I think you are missing the point. There are several 9/10 classes which are worth going into. The point is that a 1/day Animate Dead SLA is not worth the lost level. If you're only going in for the two-level dip, then it's effectively 1/2 CL... which is a big no-no.

If you go into Pale Master, it's for the Cohort. Which is worth the class, don't get me wrong, but don't confuse Animate Dead 1/day as being worth the price of admission.

[The Underlord]

Sanctum Spell. It's back to a 3rd level spell. Slaymate. Now it's a 2nd. Shall I go on? These also work in combination with metamagic-reducing abilities to make you able to pull things off like Split Ray Twin Spell Empowered Enervation out of a 4th level spell slot.

Wrong. While it reduces effective spell level, it does not reduce slot

A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

lol fail, forgot about metamagic reducers

[ShneekeyTheLost]

lol fail, forgot about metamagic reducers

Yea, basically using some of Mailman's more easily reachable techniques, although most metamagic reducers won't work here, simply because they tend to not allow it to go below the original spell level. Slaymates are a notable exception, as are things like Arcane Thesis, which can combo quite nicely with Sanctum Spell.

[Madara]

I was searching my books, and came across the Runesmith.

Interestingly enough, it would make a great PrC for the DN

Share Runes has a secondary ability; Because the spell is treated as two levels higher, its a +2 DC bonus! Also, it has the normal spell sharing.

Permanent Rune with give you your Spell-Like ability. It is a 5lv full arcane casting PrC.

Downside: Must be a dwarf, need Heavy Armor Proficiency(Which seems silly, since heavy armor has Arcane Failure chance...wait nevermind it solves that problem.)