[BitP:R] BleachITP Reborn OOC Thread 18: Peek-a-boo style PAWNCH!

[KnightDisciple]

And if this "fluff" is useless, why was advanced zanjutsu not just as useless as this? We didn't need the advanced Zanjutsu any more than we need this, we don't need this any less than we needed advanced zanjutsu. So it being useless is completely a non-issue. It's as useful and has just as much point to it as any other mechanic or fluff we've added.

Kuroi's idea of "taint" is entirely tangential to the talk of Advanced Zanjutsu.

And did you not understand the sentence I typed about how they are "mechanics" (as much as anything in this free-form game is a "mechanic"), just not a "power boost". Again, it's a clarification of skills. It tells you what someone is and isn't capable of, with flavor added on. For instance, if someone said "My character's Hakudo functions a lot like Crane-style Kung Fu", that immediately gives us at least a general picture of the style, strengths, and weaknesses of the form.

Advanced Zanjutsu is contracts to Higher Hakudo in that no form of Advanced Zanjutsu contains a series of "special moves" like many of the Higher Hakudo do. In other words, Advanced Zanjutsu don't inherently let you shoot energy beams from your sword; you need Kido or a Shikai/Bankai to do that. They do provide a structure and justification for why, say, Masaru can cut bullets out of the air instead of just dodging or getting hit. It's because he's trained in, among others, a fighting style that equips him to fight ranged attacks.

A character whose sheet says they're poor at zanjutsu couldn't justify having mastered an Advanced Zanjutsu, just like someone whose sheet says they're "average" at Hakudo couldn't justify having mastered a Higher Hakudo.

Does that make the point and concept clear enough yet?

[tgva8889]

I say that the idea of "taint" is useless in that it's unnecessary and I don't feel it adds a new dimension to the game that we want or need. I see no reason why a Shinigami can't just "be evil". I do not see why all "evil Shinigami" should be "tainted" and clearly have problems with them besides just being evil. I do not feel a Shinigami should be able to "destroy the evil" in himself. I also don't think a Shinigami's actions should be directly responsible for the creation of Hollows from nothing at all. All Hollows have souls, and the "taint Hollows" would be completely and totally soulless.

(None of this has anything to do with what you're saying, KD, I'm just clarifying my use of the word.)

Also, riccaru, do you just argue with KD because you enjoy it or something? I don't think I've ever seen you agree with anything that KD has said, ever.

[KnightDisciple]

I say that the idea of "taint" is useless in that it's unnecessary and I don't feel it adds a new dimension to the game that we want or need. I see no reason why a Shinigami can't just "be evil". I do not see why all "evil Shinigami" should be "tainted" and clearly have problems with them besides just being evil. I do not feel a Shinigami should be able to "destroy the evil" in himself. I also don't think a Shinigami's actions should be directly responsible for the creation of Hollows from nothing at all. All Hollows have souls, and the "taint Hollows" would be completely and totally soulless.

This is the general reason I'm not really in favor of the idea either. Especially the "taint Hollow" part. Again, I think it's more compelling if Soushi's pretty much the only example of his sort of being ever, and that Shinigami who do evil do so because they choose to.

[riccaru]

Also, riccaru, do you just argue with KD because you enjoy it or something? I don't think I've ever seen you agree with anything that KD has said, ever.

I did that one time. I think.

[tgva8889]

I don't understand the part of Soushi where he's actually supposed to be a Hollow in Shinigami's clothes. Why can't he just be evil or something?

[KnightDisciple]

I don't understand the part of Soushi where he's actually supposed to be a Hollow in Shinigami's clothes. Why can't he just be evil or something?

I think the idea is that his "body" was purified, but his mind wasn't wiped. I think it's about more than just "he's evil", it's also him essentially being a "born and bred" infiltrator. By nature he's not just "evil", he also identifies with Hollows (seen here and there in some of his conversations), and resents Shinigami for blindly attacking them (I think).

Kuroi, feel free to correct or clarify as needed.

As a sort of "one-off", unique spectacle, I think it's interesting. I just don't think it should become a commonplace situation.

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't understand the part of Soushi where he's actually supposed to be a Hollow in Shinigami's clothes. Why can't he just be evil or something?

That question is something I hope to adress in his subplot with Sayuri, actually.

[tgva8889]

Ah, okay. I agree that it's interesting and I also agree that I feel it's better as a one-off.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Silva's hoping to appeal to Akio's sense of honorable fighting.

[nothingclever]

The other thing that gets me besides the fact that I figure swords would be self-purifying is that there are other ways to show a shinigami is becoming corrupted/evil. If they develop an obsession with blood/violence/fighting their reiatsu/aura could start to smell like blood. I'm pretty sure it was said shinigami look as old as they feel/see themselves as. If you want your character to shows signs of taint/moral degradation/a lack of values/hunger for order, discipline or meaning you could say it starts to look emaciated. You could say his inner world or his sword's appearance/personality changes.

And characters can already become bloodthirsty/sadistic/crazy through constant exposure to violence/fighting without being tainted by hollows they've killed.

[Frozen_Feet]

*points to Hannibal, whose Reiatsu reeks of blood and sulphur, sounds like suffering enemies and feels like heavy burden. Also, whose Inner World is, in a word, Hell.* >=D

[Kuroimaken]

I see a lot of it was discussed during my work hours...

Anyhoo, to address a few important points.

I think the idea is that his "body" was purified, but his mind wasn't wiped. I think it's about more than just "he's evil", it's also him essentially being a "born and bred" infiltrator. By nature he's not just "evil", he also identifies with Hollows (seen here and there in some of his conversations), and resents Shinigami for blindly attacking them (I think).

To use computing language, they changed the case his HD was in, but forgot to run Format C:. So despite him running on a different OS, deep down he's the same collection of pr0n.

The idea of taint is easier to grasp if you compare it to Jedi. If you go about doing things in a certain way, you fall to the Dark Side. If you go too far, it takes a tremendously large effort to return you to being a Jedi.

It's not so much a good versus evil 'mechanic' as it is a 'mechanic' about responsibility versus recklessness. People can go the Kenpachi route and never talk to their swords again after Shikai. Why would they, really? Reaching Bankai is supposed to take extremely long, be only for the really freakin' talented, and Shikai itself is supposed to take a number of decades to master all on its own. Unless you REALLY want Bankai for whatever reason, it's a lot more work than it's worth.

Again, this was meant to be an addition based on the concept of cursed swords. Because swords in Bleach are a part of their owners and are not forged, they can only become cursed through their owners' actions. Bloodthirstiness alone need not be the reason. Maybe the Shinigami in question is a coward who does not hesitate to use others as human shields to get away, and that eventually begins to affect the way he does EVERYTHING. There's precedent for it in myth (although not specifically Japanese myth): Fafnir turned into a dragon out of the greed he felt towards Andvari. Seireitei is supposed to be the Court of PURE Souls, people.

Though the addition of people who might ACTUALLY become Soushi's allies in his big bad scheme to bring down Seireitei WOULD be nice, this doesn't need to be the only way that happens.

How would you guys use cursed swords in this game? I wanna hear suggestions. (Many of you have made sufficiently clear the current concept isn't particularly workable as-is.)

[tgva8889]

I would use "cursed swords" as "elements of internal character weakness." Do you know why some people don't have Bankai? Because their swords don't want to talk to them. Some zanpakuto could be "cursed" because the Zanpakuto spirit and the Shinigami don't necessarily completely get along. I imagine that's a possibility for Karashi, which is why he doesn't even know what his Shikai is actually for. So I would use "cursed swords" as Shinigami and Zanpakuto spirits disagreeing with each other in some way. It happened in the manga for a few characters, and I feel like it could happen here in a similar way.

Alternatively, I would not use the concept of "cursed swords" until we discover a good way to use it. No reason not to leave such a concept in the back of our minds until we discover something that's awesome to do with it.

[Kuroimaken]

I would use "cursed swords" as "elements of internal character weakness." Do you know why some people don't have Bankai? Because their swords don't want to talk to them. Some zanpakuto could be "cursed" because the Zanpakuto spirit and the Shinigami don't necessarily completely get along. I imagine that's a possibility for Karashi, which is why he doesn't even know what his Shikai is actually for. So I would use "cursed swords" as Shinigami and Zanpakuto spirits disagreeing with each other in some way. It happened in the manga for a few characters, and I feel like it could happen here in a similar way.

Alternatively, I would not use the concept of "cursed swords" until we discover a good way to use it. No reason not to leave such a concept in the back of our minds until we discover something that's awesome to do with it.

Can't really argue with the bolded bit. Though I disagree on the whole idea of "cursed swords don't wanna talk to their masters". Typically, many such masters are either dumb or don't want to initiate conversation anyway (see Kenpachi, again). Even for those who are not, the swords themselves are typically cryptical enough that it takes being smarter, as opposed to being more compassionate/empathic, for them to really get along.

[tgva8889]

Matsumoto doesn't have a very good relationship with her Zanpakuto. She and Yumichika were the first two people I thought of when I mentioned that. Kenpachi is different.

[Kuroimaken]

If the Zanpakutou Tales arc is any indication, she doesn't have a good relationship with her Zanpakutou because A) her Zanpakutou is just as flighty as she is and she doesn't want to admit that about herself, and B) her Zanpakutou sees her as decaying in terms of *ahem* womanhood (she calls Matsumoto an 'old hag' all the time).

[tgva8889]

Considering that they're supposed to be part of the same being, conflict between sword and shinigami could very easily be seen as some kind of "curse."

But yes, it's probably different. Not all sword relationships are the same.

[Kuroimaken]

And now for something completely different...

Since the Aerie Del Sacrificio is currently taken up by the Kido Corps, does anyone have specific ideas for scenarios in which Famine could show up?

I mean, the Aerie is so friggin' perfect for this I have a hard time conjuring up a better setting.

[Draken]

And now for something completely different...

Since the Aerie Del Sacrificio is currently taken up by the Kido Corps, does anyone have specific ideas for scenarios in which Famine could show up?

I mean, the Aerie is so friggin' perfect for this I have a hard time conjuring up a better setting.

You could make the abandoned ruins of the former domain of another ancient Vasto Lorde, one that was gluttonous in a most unrefined manner, perhaps.

---------

Also, because I stumbled on it in that argument above, shinigami do have a hierro-like ability. Kempachi demonstrated it on his first fight against Ichigo.

[Nicklance]

And now for something completely different...

Since the Aerie Del Sacrificio is currently taken up by the Kido Corps, does anyone have specific ideas for scenarios in which Famine could show up?

I mean, the Aerie is so friggin' perfect for this I have a hard time conjuring up a better setting.

Nah we can do a time dissonance and have this event occur before or after the kido corp moved in.

Time is what we make of it, besides, if its in episode form, its effectively a parallel universe in its own right.

[nothingclever]

What happens to swords after their owners die? If they ever stick around you could have some of them be functionally cursed because their nasty personalities could try to influence/take over people that try to become their new owners.

[Kuroimaken]

Well, Masamune was able to go around and plot like hell, but his owner was merely imprisoned, and Masamune was 'special' in any case.

Outside of that, canon has no answer for us, but I believe the answer we've come up with whenever that question was asked was "the sword dies with the owner because the sword is a part of the owner".

[KnightDisciple]

Well, Masamune was able to go around and plot like hell, but his owner was merely imprisoned, and Masamune was 'special' in any case.

Outside of that, canon has no answer for us, but I believe the answer we've come up with whenever that question was asked was "the sword dies with the owner because the sword is a part of the owner".

That is much, much more how I would prefer it be.

[riccaru]

That is much, much more how I would prefer it be.

Except in our canon, it's not. Himura Michiko has access to the blades and shikai abilities of her fallen 11th division members.

Edit: Akio's not going to fight Silva, he's just going to keep her there to ask her some questions.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Except in our canon, it's not. Himura Michiko has access to the blades and shikai abilities of her fallen 11th division members.

Edit: Akio's not going to fight Silva, he's just going to keep her there to ask her some questions.

Ah. Well, she's assuming fight. And she would still rather have her dagger right now.

[Kasanip]

It was not said before: Thank you everyone for advice of "Mr." and "Sir." I will use them more.


Maybe for some suggestion Kuroimaken, I played a character named Hazuki last game, and eventually with Overwilliam's character Yori. If you would like, maybe there is some inspiration.

Of "sword battle of self" idea, there is a lot I tried.
This is why I did not disagree immediately with your idea. Of course, Hazuki was unique situation.

If it is common situation however, I think it must address Konsou.



Of Reincarnation: I will not talk about it in this game.

[Kuroimaken]

Hmmm, it might be a good idea. Would you care to send me a PM?

[Kuroimaken]

Except in our canon, it's not. Himura Michiko has access to the blades and shikai abilities of her fallen 11th division members.

Edit: Akio's not going to fight Silva, he's just going to keep her there to ask her some questions.

Exception, not the rule.

[tgva8889]

That is much, much more how I would prefer it be.

I agree. Only very specific exceptions to this, please.

[nothingclever]

I agree. Only very specific exceptions to this, please.

I lean towards this opinion.