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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Everything about it. Because of it, important developments got skipped over and have to be told to us in retrospect (see most of the most interesting parts of the last episode), rather than giving us those stories. A ton of new characters got added to the show all at once rather than being gradually introduced, resulting in a lot of dilution of screen time and very little development for most of them (really, the only new member who has gotten anything like development so far is Blue Beetle; maybe Beast Boy, depending on how much weight you place on the little we got of him in the second episode). Zatanna and Rocket got dumped as a result, the former irritating me because I liked her and was hoping they'd rectify the problem that developed where she did nothing after joining the team in season 1, the latter being annoying because it rendered her completely pointless given she did nothing at all important in her very brief time in season 1.
    Firstly, most of the important stuff seems to be coming out of one event that I think we are purposely being concealed on for an important reason. I will bet that Aqualad learnt about his parentage in the same mission where Aquagirl died, Wally and Artemis retired after Wally got scared, Nightwing took over the team and Miss Martian started to mindrape people. And I bet that mission was against Ocean Master.
    Why they don't want to show us all of this yet, I don't know. But I am certain the answers are coming, but only when it won't spoil anything important.

    Many new characters were introduced, but each are being given their time to shine. Maybe they could have made it more gradual, but I won't say it is a bad thing. And plenty of characters have got development. Robin, Beast Boy, Wonder Girl and Impulse have been given their own development, and you could argue that L'gaan had his in Depths. That leaves only Bumblebee and Mal. Of course Blue Beetle has had the most, but that is what happens when you need to be established before the Reach are revealed. The start of the show had a similar issue with having to introduce a bunch of new characters, though not as many.

    I do agree with you mostly on Zatanna and Rocket. Them being removed from the team is frustrating, but it seems like they will still have a role in the series, especially Zatanna. There have been several suggestions of Nightwing and Zatannaa being in a relationship, and that will be bought up when the time is right. I think Rocket's primary role in the show was to have the entire season explained to her so that people who couldn't remember/hadn't watched the show before the very continuity heavy finale would understand everything. I wish they were given more, though it seems like Zatanna, at the very least, will be given something.

    Also, we still have no idea why Wally and Artemis retired. Unless that was all part of their plan with Aqualad and Nightwing to begin with, but if so why weren't we told in this episode?
    Wally and Artemis retiring is likely due to the events above, though we can't be sure. But the fact is, what is the difference between not knowing why they retired, and not knowing the truth about Artemis' parentage? THey are the same situation. They are character points that are purposely being obscured to promote speculation until it is necessary for it to be revealed. It is never a bad thing when they do this, unless they never provide an answer. And when it comes to providing the answers, it is better for this answer to be provided at the point that will cause the most dramatic impact, and not at the very start. It is one of the basic points of writing. Never reveal everything at the start. Reveal things when it is best to reveal them. If the identity of the mole or the Light's plan was revealed at the start of the series, then it wouldn't have had as much of an impact as it did. THis is just the same. It would be a much greater to see Wally reveal the reason to the audience when something happens and he thinks Artemis is dead, than simply already knowing.

    Not knowing all the answers isn't a bad thing. That's why you keep watching.


    I would hope not, but frankly even if that were the case, it would still be much better, because seeing him "turn evil" would at least go further towards making it credible than what we got. I seriously thought they had just ruined the character for a while there, which irked me quite a bit since I like Aqualad.
    The idea that they would reveal that Aqualad was a mole that early was absurd. It would destroy so much if you knew that before it actually happened. If you think about Depths, all of the tension would have disappeared if you knew Aqualad wasn't actually evil when he stabbed Artemis through the heart. Similarly, seeing how everyone reacts to him in ALienated would be much weaker if you knew he was the mole.

    On the credibility point, I have two things. Firstly, they are probably obscururing what exactly happened in those events for a reason. I might be wrong, but I think they are. Secondly, you'll see below at the very end.

    You missed what I meant. We've seen her abusing her ability a couple of times before, yes, but it's another thing that changed in between seasons. I wanted to see what caused her to take that turn, as it's a pretty drastic shift in her character, especially since it went so far that she'd actually attempt to alter Superboy's memories, which is just downright disturbing and evil.
    I would argue she started using her telepathy in evil ways when she blasted Psimon.

    You have a point here about the Superboy memories bit, though, and I can't use the 'obscuring important events' argument here, because this obviously happened afterwards. THe only thing I can say is that the needs of the story required Miss Martian to start in a relationship with La'gaan, because of the importance of him being kidnapped in Depths. It would have been better to see Miss Martian try and change Superboy's memories, but I think you have to lose that so that the very important subplot about La'gaan's kidnapping isn't sabotaged.



    Now, onto why I thought the time skip was so important. Usual Suspects and Auld Acquaintance resolved nearly every non-Light related subplot in the show. In fact, you could argue the only things they didn't resolve was Miss Martian and her telepathy, and Red Arrow. And both are now a key part of her subplot in Invasion.

    All of your complaints about Invasion, except the changes in the character roster, are basically the same. New subplots. But this is why I think the time skip was so good. These new subplots are important. Part of what makes Young Justice so good is the subplots, and how the subplots interact with the metaplot. I enjoyed trying to work out whether Miss Martian was a white martian or not in this continuity, or smugly thinking 'of course the mole isn't Artemis. She is obviously a red herring to distract us from the guy with the clone that the Light developed' (little did I know there were two clones). That is what makes Young Justice strong, and coming into season 2, we needed a new set of subplots to have any hope of having a good series. The show could have spent the first few episodes trying to create new episodes, but this would be at the expense of the metaplot. How much of what has happened this season has related to these subplots?
    Much of the Light's presence in the show is connected to to Aqualad's subplot now, except in the circumstances where they don't want Aqualad to know something, where they use Sportsmaster. Miss Martian's subplot is built alongside major plot events, like discovering what happened in the 16 hours. Artemis and Wally being retired has already had effects on Red Arrow's subplot, and will probably be revealed as a key reason why Nightwing chose Artemis to go undercover.

    Without these subplots, Invasion wouldn't have been so dramatic. You can't tell me that seeing Aqualad fight off his mentors and team mates wasn't more dramatic than simply having Black Manta do it, or that having Miss Martian learn about the 16 hours from a light telepathic probe instead of a mind rape that advanced her own important subplot is better than what we got? Invasion would be much worse without these subplots. So to me, there is either a choice of having a time jump, having Invasion start off poorly as they try and create subplots for every character or have a several episodes in between season 1 and Invasion that are of a poor quality because they cannot advance the metaplot (except for maybe Ocean Master's fall) or the subplots, because they are too busy setting up the subplots that will exist throughout Invasion.

    Personally, I would rather have a time jump than poor quality episodes.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I wanted to see what caused her to take that turn, as it's a pretty drastic shift in her character, especially since it went so far that she'd actually attempt to alter Superboy's memories, which is just downright disturbing and evil.
    She took the turn in Season 1 though, didn't she? She mind-****ed Psimon pretty bad. This was all foreshadowed throughout Season 1 in various places...
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Firstly, most of the important stuff seems to be coming out of one event that I think we are purposely being concealed on for an important reason. I will bet that Aqualad learnt about his parentage in the same mission where Aquagirl died, Wally and Artemis retired after Wally got scared, Nightwing took over the team and Miss Martian started to mindrape people. And I bet that mission was against Ocean Master.
    Why they don't want to show us all of this yet, I don't know. But I am certain the answers are coming, but only when it won't spoil anything important.
    That's speculation at best. And frankly even if it were so, I'd still think it's a poor way to tell a story, relying on skipping over an event so that the characters know far more than the viewer.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Many new characters were introduced, but each are being given their time to shine. Maybe they could have made it more gradual, but I won't say it is a bad thing.
    I very much so will. The new Robin, Lagoon Boy, Beast Boy, Blue Beattle, Wonder Girl, Batgirl, and not-Wasp all got thrown at us in episode 1, then we got Impulse on top of that a week ago. Eight new characters, more than the total of the original roster, equal to the total of the final roster of season 1, and as we noted before they had problems with not using the two they added in season 1 much.

    They got it right when they introduced Zatanna more gradually in season 1. They could perhaps have done her a little faster, and certainly could've stood to use her more after she joined, but that was the way to handle a new character joining the team. This is the opposite of that, just throwing a ton of new characters into the show all at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    And plenty of characters have got development. Robin, Beast Boy, Wonder Girl and Impulse have been given their own development, and you could argue that L'gaan had his in Depths.
    When did any of those other than Beast Boy get any development? Impulse just joined, so all we've done with him is establish his base character, which is also all that happened with the new Robin and Lagoon Boy back in episode 1. And Wonder Girl has only had action sequences. (That was something that disappointed me about the girls' episode a couple of weeks ago - all they really showed was that they were competant superheroes, which I'd kind of assumed would be the case. Good thing it had the Blue Beetle side-story too.)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I do agree with you mostly on Zatanna and Rocket. Them being removed from the team is frustrating, but it seems like they will still have a role in the series, especially Zatanna.
    I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Aside from Zatanna giving Robin that trinket in the latest episode, which happened off-screen, they haven't been so much as mentioned since their very brief appearances in episode 1 which served mostly to tell us they were with the Justice League now.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    But the fact is, what is the difference between not knowing why they retired, and not knowing the truth about Artemis' parentage? They are the same situation.
    No, no they're not. Artemis' parentage is something she was keeping from the other characters, a genuine secret. Wally and Artemis' retirement is just something that got skipped over - everyone in the show knows it, we're just kept out of the loop arbitrarily because of the time skip.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    If the identity of the mole or the Light's plan was revealed at the start of the series, then it wouldn't have had as much of an impact as it did.
    Again, that's a genuine secret - nobody knew who the mole was, or even if there was a mole. The characters were just as puzzled about it as we were. Here, this is not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Not knowing all the answers isn't a bad thing. That's why you keep watching.
    If that were true, I'd never re-watch anything. After all, I already know what will happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    The idea that they would reveal that Aqualad was a mole that early was absurd. It would destroy so much if you knew that before it actually happened. If you think about Depths, all of the tension would have disappeared if you knew Aqualad wasn't actually evil when he stabbed Artemis through the heart. Similarly, seeing how everyone reacts to him in ALienated would be much weaker if you knew he was the mole.
    Honestly I never felt any tension in Depths on that point anyway, because I don't believe they'd kill off a main character in a Cartoon Network program (well, a villain they might, but not a hero). And as for the reactions to him in Alienated, perhaps, but then they wouldn't have had to focus on that - that was done for the audience benefit, since it was when we were first being showed what had happened with him. Doing the story from the start instead would allow us to follow Aqualad's side of the story, seeing what he has to deal with in the process of infiltrating Black Manta and the Light, which I think would make for a much better story.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I would argue she started using her telepathy in evil ways when she blasted Psimon.
    What? How is knocking him out anything evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    All of your complaints about Invasion, except the changes in the character roster, are basically the same. New subplots.
    No, no they are not. My complaint is the way the new story is being handled, because of the time skip. I have no problem with new subplots. I have a serious problem with skipping important events in order to keep the viewer in the dark when the characters are not, especially when it comes to things like making us think Aqualad had turned villain, which is just completely beyond belief and made it seemed like they'd ruined the character. I also have serious problems with character development occurring off-screen and us just being expected to assume it happened, such as with Miss Martian.

    They absolutely did not need to do a time skip to introduce new subplots into the series - not even these particular new subplots needed that. I cannot see how you even remotely come to that conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Without these subplots, Invasion wouldn't have been so dramatic. You can't tell me that seeing Aqualad fight off his mentors and team mates wasn't more dramatic than simply having Black Manta do it, or that having Miss Martian learn about the 16 hours from a light telepathic probe instead of a mind rape that advanced her own important subplot is better than what we got?
    And you cannot tell me that either of those required the time skip.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Personally, I would rather have a time jump than poor quality episodes.
    The two are not mutually exclusive, by any means. Quite the contrary, the time skip has done nothing but negatively impact the quality of the show. What good it continues to produce is only coming after we learn the things we were being kept from knowing, not because we were kept from knowing them.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    What? How is knocking him out anything evil?
    I may be misremembering this, but I believe in the all girls episode it was stated, or at least implied, that Psimon had only woken up recently. That means he wasn't merely knocked out but put into a five year long coma.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    What? How is knocking him out anything evil?
    From my recollection, she got angry / desperate because he threatened to reveal she was a white martian, so she mind-blasted the crap out of him. He had the drool and all and was in a coma for a long while... years, in fact.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    From my recollection, she got angry / desperate because he threatened to reveal she was a white martian, so she mind-blasted the crap out of him. He had the drool and all and was in a coma for a long while... years, in fact.
    I don't remember...

    Oh, wait, right. I missed the climax of that episode because of a call from work. Hm, I should try to find that on youtube later.

    For now though, I'll say that if your description is accurate, it still doesn't sound like a precursor of this, just her acting out of desperation, perhaps not even knowing how severely she'd affect him.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Nope. Rewatching the episode, I assure you she was really hitting for all the mental damage she could do, not did she express once of regret to what she did afterward (I remember it was pretty shocking at the time) Though to be fair, Psimon really did push his luck and had it comming from miles away.
    What makes it scarry in season 2 is that she's doing it pretty casualy now and without much of a second though.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Ok, let me try to run through the main important events here:

    Season 1: (BEREFT) Mega'an first encounters Psimon, and in the ensuing fight requires Superboy's aid to defeat him.

    (FAILSAFE / DISORDERED) Mega'an unintentionally traps the team in a psychic exercise. It is revealed that, in terms of raw power, she exceeds Martian Manhunter, but she seems to sometimes lose control of that power.

    (IMAGE) Mega'an vs. Psimon, round 2. Psimon reveals that he knows what Mega'an really is. In order to prevent him from revealing it to the team, she psychically knocks the entire team out (later she covers this up by claiming that Psimon knocked them out). She then in anger attacks Psimon with a dangerous uncontrolled mind blast that sends him into a catatonic state for years.

    These events reveal that A) Miss Martian stuggles to control her power, especially when distressed. B) She is not opposed to psychically attacking her own friends to hide her secrets, and then lying about it afterward (or, as we now know, attempting to mindwipe Superboy). C) She is now not afraid to let her raw power flow uninhibited if it suits her ends, no matter what the cost or result (Psimon / Kroloteans in catatonic states).
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    That's speculation at best. And frankly even if it were so, I'd still think it's a poor way to tell a story, relying on skipping over an event so that the characters know far more than the viewer.
    I am speculating, so I might be wrong. But, for the sake of the argument, let's assume I'm right, so I can rebut your second point.

    Ever watched Ocean's Eleven, Hustle or Leverage? They all rely on the very idea of concealing a key piece of information on the audience to work, then at the end they flashback and reveal what the characters knew that they obscured. Depths did the same thing. They concealed why Artemis was on the mission until the end, so that when she 'died' people actually believed it, until at the end they revealed they skipped the scene where Nightwing had the plan with Artemis.

    You have this idea that you should be given all the information up front. As both an amateur writer and an amateur critic, I cannot accept this. You should only be given information when it is dramatically appropriate to be given it. The goal of any show is to invoke an emotional response, and anything that reduces the emotional response isn't good. One thing I didn't say, but slayerx said that I agree with, is that the time skip has created tension. Can you say that an emotional response wasn't provoked with the sudden revelation that Aqualad was evil? As any good writer does, they exploited your emotional connection to provoke an emotional response.

    I very much so will. The new Robin, Lagoon Boy, Beast Boy, Blue Beattle, Wonder Girl, Batgirl, and not-Wasp all got thrown at us in episode 1, then we got Impulse on top of that a week ago. Eight new characters, more than the total of the original roster, equal to the total of the final roster of season 1, and as we noted before they had problems with not using the two they added in season 1 much.

    They got it right when they introduced Zatanna more gradually in season 1. They could perhaps have done her a little faster, and certainly could've stood to use her more after she joined, but that was the way to handle a new character joining the team. This is the opposite of that, just throwing a ton of new characters into the show all at once.
    I think part of the problem here is you are overstating the new characters' importance. With a few exceptions (Blue Beetle), I don't think they aren't supposed to be as important as the main cast. That's why the main cast of season 1 are doing so much. The original cast are still the main characters, and the rest of the team are more minor characters. Already, Lagoon boy has been captured, and will disappear for several episodes at least. The new members are still important, but you may be overstating how important they actually are. Zatanna was done well as a method of introducing new main character, except for the part where she wasn't used enough afterwards, but are the others supposed to be as important as Nightwing or Miss Martian?

    Also, the difference between Zatanna and the new characters here was that Zatanna was introduced half way through, while these characters are introduced at the very beginning of a new story. A better comparison would be to compare them to how Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin and Superboy were introduced, but even that is a bad comparison as they were given a double episode and didn’t have to share screen time with more established character. And to be fair, the big problem with the new characters is that as a new character, they don’t have the development or the connection to the audience that the new characters have.

    When did any of those other than Beast Boy get any development? Impulse just joined, so all we've done with him is establish his base character, which is also all that happened with the new Robin and Lagoon Boy back in episode 1. And Wonder Girl has only had action sequences. (That was something that disappointed me about the girls' episode a couple of weeks ago - all they really showed was that they were competant superheroes, which I'd kind of assumed would be the case. Good thing it had the Blue Beetle side-story too.)
    Robin - had to deal with leading a team for the first time, while trying to keep safe like Nightwing asked. Was given to difficult choice about whether attempting to save the prisoners was a necessary risk when they found themselves over their head and fighting far more kroloteans than they expected. Also demonstrated the restrictions being placed by him by Nightwing and probably Batman. They want to keep Robin safe, despite being a superhero (which is why I won't be surprised if we learn that Tim is the third Robin)

    Wonder Girl - Dealt with her need to feel accepted within the group. She begins disappointed when she has to stay on watch while the others sneak in, because she lacks stealth abilities. However, by the end of the episode, she learns that the others accept her as a member of the team just as much as the other members (watch the second to last scene, where all the girls hug at the end). It also demonstrated her inexperience relative to the rest of them. Not the best done development, but it was still there.

    Impulse - Impulse got the most. The fact that he was given an introductory episode of his own means that out of everyone, he has been given the most development (except for maybe Blue Beetle). Not only do they establish characterisation, we learn about his backstory and goals, as well. That is development.

    I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Aside from Zatanna giving Robin that trinket in the latest episode, which happened off-screen, they haven't been so much as mentioned since their very brief appearances in episode 1 which served mostly to tell us they were with the Justice League now.
    Easy. If you make several allusions to a character being close, it will come into play. Especially when we know that Zatanna hasn't been dropped from the show since she had a line in the first episode.

    Comes down to the Law of Conservation of detail. Why would they establish that Nightwing and Zatanna are very close if not to explore it later. Also, I think Greg Wiesman confirmed that both Zatanna and Rocket will return.


    No, no they're not. Artemis' parentage is something she was keeping from the other characters, a genuine secret. Wally and Artemis' retirement is just something that got skipped over - everyone in the show knows it, we're just kept out of the loop arbitrarily because of the time skip.
    How about Failsafe? At least at the start of the episode, we weren't told about an important fact that all the characters knew. There are probably other examples but I don't have the time to seek them all out.

    The best example of concealing from the audience something the characters do is the heist genre, where an important part of the plan is never shown, so that we can learn about it when it is necessary and creates the best emotional impact. We aren't told about Artemis and Wally until it is necessary, because the show is better by not telling us. If they told us, we would know. But if they instead waited until Salvage, they create a mystery that intrigues the audience and provokes an emotional response, which is resolved when Red Arrow reveals everything.

    If that were true, I'd never re-watch anything. After all, I already know what will happen.
    OK, let me explain that better. Why is it that most things are best the first time? Unless something has significant narrative depth that you learn more and more each time you watch it (a rare feat that only occurs in the best of the best) the first viewing, where you see the twists, and the second viewing, where you see all the foreshadowing leading to the twists, are usually the best.

    Honestly I never felt any tension in Depths on that point anyway, because I don't believe they'd kill off a main character in a Cartoon Network program (well, a villain they might, but not a hero). And as for the reactions to him in Alienated, perhaps, but then they wouldn't have had to focus on that - that was done for the audience benefit, since it was when we were first being showed what had happened with him. Doing the story from the start instead would allow us to follow Aqualad's side of the story, seeing what he has to deal with in the process of infiltrating Black Manta and the Light, which I think would make for a much better story.
    I had the same issue with Depths, because of things like the flashforward at the beginning, and all the hype the episode was getting about whether or not Artemis will die. But to all the people who aren't as cynical as us and didn't realise that there was no chance that Artemis would die, do you really think the scene of her being 'stabbed' would have been more effective if we already knew Aqualad was a mole?

    On Alienated, everything wasn't just done for the audience's benefit. Seeing how Aquaman and Superboy react to Aqualad being evil is important for their characters. And also, how about the impact to the audience? What is more dramatic? Learning that one of the main characters has turned evil, or being told from the start that he is a mole and that every evil thing he does is only him being undercover. Seeing that all of a sudden, Aqualad was evil was a great twist.

    What? How is knocking him out anything evil?
    Everyone else has corrected you on this point, so I won't.

    No, no they are not. My complaint is the way the new story is being handled, because of the time skip. I have no problem with new subplots. I have a serious problem with skipping important events in order to keep the viewer in the dark when the characters are not, especially when it comes to things like making us think Aqualad had turned villain, which is just completely beyond belief and made it seemed like they'd ruined the character. I also have serious problems with character development occurring off-screen and us just being expected to assume it happened, such as with Miss Martian.

    They absolutely did not need to do a time skip to introduce new subplots into the series - not even these particular new subplots needed that. I cannot see how you even remotely come to that conclusion.
    I'm sorry, you misinterpreted what I said there. Your complaint is about how the new subplots were implemented. What I am saying is that the Time Skip was the best way to implement the subplots.

    If we wanted to keep the plot of Invasion as it is, Aqualad has to 'turn evil', Miss Martian's telepathy subplot had to advance from where it was in Image to the point where she is even more liberal with it, and Wally and Artemis retire. Now, please note that the Light's entire plan in season one was to create the 16 hours and set the stage for season 2. Until the kroloteans came, the Light was mostly waiting patiently, doing little of consequence.

    Without a Time Skip, you would have to spend several episodes introducing new characters, developing Miss Martian's telepathy and her relationship with Superboy, showing Aqualad 'turning evil', having Wally and Artemis retire and a bunch of other little things like that. Meanwhile, the most the Light would be doing is sitting around a table, looking at each other awkwardly and checking their watches. In a show that has a strong metaplot as one of the key strengths, do you really think Young Justice would be improved by having the big bads sit around doing nothing? It would probably take 10 episodes at least to deal with the many things they have to do, considering they also have to deal with Robin becoming Nightwing and a new Robin being found (maybe two if Jason Todd exists in Young Justice, which there is evidence to suggest), before the main plot can start again.

    The only alternative, without a time skip, would be to start Invasion without everything in place, where we have the shocking twist that the Team has not managed to infiltrate the Light in any way because Aqualad still needs to have Tula to die and his true parentage revealed before it can make sense for him to ‘turn evil’. Or the game changing capture of Lagoon Boy, the person no one cares about because he has just been introduced and has no connection to anyone because Miss Martian and Superboy are still a loving couple. And we get to see Wally’s issues with Artemis doing what she does every day for the Team, because Wally and Artemis haven’t retired yet and Wally isn’t dealing with the fact that Artemis is being dragged back in the world of superheroics despite the fact that both are trying to leave that life.

    Invasion in its current form would not work without the time skip, because part of what makes Invasion great is the use of subplots, that have to have been implemented throughout the main storyline. The only way they could avoid the time skip would be to do a radically different season, and I question whether that is a good thing, as they would have to build a story where they start with a bunch of characters who, with the exception of Miss Martian and Red Arrow, have all concluded their subplots and the season would have to start with contrived events designed to create subplots so that the characters could start to grow again. I truly doubt Greg Weisman could do that, and make it better than Invasion. If you were going to write a story, would you start the story with a set of characters that had all of their subplots already resolved, or would you start with a group that each had a set of issues that could be developed throughout the season? You could try the former, but I don’t think anyone can do that better than the latter

    The two are not mutually exclusive, by any means. Quite the contrary, the time skip has done nothing but negatively impact the quality of the show. What good it continues to produce is only coming after we learn the things we were being kept from knowing, not because we were kept from knowing them.
    So what you are saying is that with every new fact that is revealed, Invasion is getting stronger? Like how the original series kept getting better with each reveal, like when we learnt that there was a mole on the team or when we saw every member’s pasts came to light? What you just described was the basics of a reveal. Something is revealed that shows you something that you didn’t know, and because of that, the story is improved.

    So far, your complaint here as I see it are that important plot points are being revealed at dramatically appropriate times instead of immediately. I don’t think it is a bad thing. In fact, if we were given all the information at the start, I would call that a bad thing.
    Last edited by SecondRevan; 2012-06-13 at 12:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan
    I think part of the problem here is you are overstating the new characters' importance. With a few exceptions (Blue Beetle), I don't think they aren't supposed to be as important as the main cast. That's why the main cast of season 1 are doing so much. The original cast are still the main characters, and the rest of the team are more minor characters. Already, Lagoon boy has been captured, and will disappear for several episodes at least. The new members are still important, but you may be overstating how important they actually are. Zatanna was done well as a method of introducing new main character, except for the part where she wasn't used enough afterwards, but are the others supposed to be as important as Nightwing or Miss Martian?
    Y'know that's a very good point.
    I mean take for instance Justice League. In the first series we focused on 7 main characters and only them, but in the sequel series, the cast exploded to include dozens of characters... however, most of them were not important. We still spent most of our time with 6 or the original 7 main cast members, but some characters were given similar amounts of screen time so that they could sorta be part of the main cast, while others were stuck as secondary characters and even more were only there for cameos.

    In essence, some of the new team members like Batgirl, Bumblebee and Mal are not MEANT to be part of the new main cast... they are just secondary and supporting characters that are meant to add some extra spice. They are not supposed to be part of the main cast, but are their to support the main cast; their purpose is similar to that of the Justice league. In a way they just add atmosphere, to show that the team has continued to grow and change over the years.

    Blue Beetle and Impulse are the only ones i'm certain are supposed to be part of the main cast, since they seem to be directly tied to the plot. Not entirely sure about the rest... if Lagoon Boy is supposed to be part of the main cast, then i would say he has been poorly handled as he's not all that likable and hasn't gotten proper development prior to being captured... the rest still have time to develop



    Hell, if you looked at the team designations you can find that there are even characters that were part of the team that we don't know about
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    B01 – Robin/Nightwing
    B02 – Aqualad
    B03 – Kid Flash
    B04 – Superboy
    B05 – Miss Martian
    B06 – Speedy/Red Arrow
    B07 – Artemis
    B08 – Zatanna
    B09 – Rocket*
    B10 – Garth*
    B11 –
    B12 –
    B13 –
    B14 –
    B15 – Aquagirl*
    B16 – Batgirl*
    B17 - Bumblebee
    B18 – Lagoon boy*
    B19 - Beast Boy
    B20 - Robin II
    B21 – Wonder girl*
    B22 - Blue Beetle
    A10 - Mal Duncan

    *speculative designation


    Rocket, Batgirl, Wondergirl and Lagoon boy all have unknown designations... its believed that Tula was part of the team since she died on a mission, and its believed Garth was also a member since he's gonna be a playable character in the upcoming video game which is supposed to take place during the missing 5 years. And even if we gave Wolf and Sphere designations, that would still leave two unknown members... 2 characters that joined and left the team during those 5 years



    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox
    No, no they are not. My complaint is the way the new story is being handled, because of the time skip. I have no problem with new subplots. I have a serious problem with skipping important events in order to keep the viewer in the dark when the characters are not, especially when it comes to things like making us think Aqualad had turned villain, which is just completely beyond belief and made it seemed like they'd ruined the character. I also have serious problems with character development occurring off-screen and us just being expected to assume it happened, such as with Miss Martian.
    i think that's some of the best parts... not knowing what happened during those 5 years has lead to a HUGE amount of speculation from fans as they try to figure it out... Hell legend of Korra didn't tell the audience what happened to Aang 40 years ago even though other members of the cast knew about it; they just gave us bits and pieces and waited till later to show us... not much different than not telling us about what happened during those past 5 years. If Legend of Korra had show us right from the beginning what happened 40 years ago, we would have never been surprised by tarlok...

    They didn't tell use about aqualad because they wanted to surprise us. Thinking that aqualad was evil only to reveal that he was deep undercover mole is FAR more interesting than just spending multiple episodes of watching him sneak around his Black Manta's back... its also what made so many people believe that Artemis really died; even some cynical people like myself were taken in. If we knew he was the mole from the beginning, it would have been pretty Boring to watch after a while, since he never gets caught or even raised suspicions.


    And frankly, i think MM's transition makes sense, and the events from season 1 seemed to foreshadow her darker turn... She had no remorse for what she did to Psimon; once you cross the line it becomes easier to cross it again... plus the episode even showed that she was willing to use her powers on her friends to keep secrets that she feels would jeopardize their friendship.


    Other things we need to take into account for this show...
    First, the creators can not be sure how many seasons they have to work with... they managed to secure 2 seasons, but they can't be sure they could get a 3rd or a 4th... that means they NEED to wrap up the storyline they started in season 1 so that they don't risk ending the series with an unfinished story. Taking the time to properly introduce new characters and showing us important events would have taken FAR too much time to cram into the second season without it coming off as horribly rushed... instead they can give us a timeskip, summarize the events as they become relevant and gives us a bit of mystery and intrigue to keep us guessing (a lot of fans on the forums have enjoyed trying to piece together what happened during the timeskip)... So the timeskip was pretty much necessary to make sure they could finish the story, but they took advantage of it to give fans something to speculate on and set up some interesting and surprising twists.


    The other thing we have to take into account is the tie in comic... I don't think the tie in comic is gonna pursue a timeskip... with the tv show skipping over those 5 years, that gives the comic book 5 years worth of story material to fill in... it can give its readers the origins of characters and use those characters that were on the team but left during the 5 years. Hell the details that the comics might go into is already making me interested in following the comic if its as well written as the show. The two basically will wind up complimenting each other.
    Last edited by slayerx; 2012-06-13 at 01:23 AM.

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    Alright, caught up on the part of that one episode that I missed. Interesting, but far insufficient to excuse the time skip's effects on Megan. Psimon pushed her to a breaking point, and she lashed out in desperation to prevent the fears he had showed her from coming true - understandable, if morally iffy. That's still a far cry from what she's become, though. The very start of that path maybe, but we still missed quite a few steps along the way, given she's no longer going to such extremes only where her greatest fears are concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Ever watched Ocean's Eleven, Hustle or Leverage?
    Afraid not. I haven't even heard of them, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    You have this idea that you should be given all the information up front.
    No - I have the idea that the viewer should know everything the protagonists do at any given time. If information is unknown to the protagonists, I'm fine with the viewer not knowing it either. I am not fine with the characters we're supposed to be following and cheering for knowing things that we do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    One thing I didn't say, but slayerx said that I agree with, is that the time skip has created tension.
    Not for me, unless great irritation at the impact it's had on the story counts as "tension."

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Can you say that an emotional response wasn't provoked with the sudden revelation that Aqualad was evil?
    Insofar as repulsion at the idea that they were actually doing such a bad twist without even showing it happen counts as an emotional response, no, I can't say it didn't provoke an emotional response. That's not a good sort of emotional response, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I think part of the problem here is you are overstating the new characters' importance. With a few exceptions (Blue Beetle), I don't think they aren't supposed to be as important as the main cast.
    No, the degree of their importance is irrelevant. If they're supposed to be important at all, the problem stands as I stated. If they're not, they have no reason to be in the show. And either way, I'd say there are far too many of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Robin - had to deal with leading a team for the first time, while trying to keep safe like Nightwing asked. Was given to difficult choice about whether attempting to save the prisoners was a necessary risk when they found themselves over their head and fighting far more kroloteans than they expected. Also demonstrated the restrictions being placed by him by Nightwing and probably Batman. They want to keep Robin safe, despite being a superhero (which is why I won't be surprised if we learn that Tim is the third Robin)
    Can't say I see that as being much in the way of development. It's more a summary of what very little he did in that episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Wonder Girl - Dealt with her need to feel accepted within the group. She begins disappointed when she has to stay on watch while the others sneak in, because she lacks stealth abilities. However, by the end of the episode, she learns that the others accept her as a member of the team just as much as the other members (watch the second to last scene, where all the girls hug at the end). It also demonstrated her inexperience relative to the rest of them. Not the best done development, but it was still there.
    That's an extremely weak excuse for character development. Given we've seen no such thing out of her before (largely because of her being a new team member) and the other members of the team were merely being practical, having her display a minor discomfort with being left behind which then vanished by the end doesn't really qualify as development as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Easy. If you make several allusions to a character being close, it will come into play. Especially when we know that Zatanna hasn't been dropped from the show since she had a line in the first episode.
    One allusion to it in the most recent episode is not several. And since this is a relationship that was set up in the first season, it could merely be a reference to that, not to any future importance of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    How about Failsafe? At least at the start of the episode, we weren't told about an important fact that all the characters knew. There are probably other examples but I don't have the time to seek them all out.
    (For future reference, please refer to what happened in episodes when discussing them, not just the title. I don't have those memorized, so it'd be nice not to have to go look them up.)

    That was, in my opinion, by far the worst episode in the first season, in large part because of that twist to it. The "it was all a dream ending," even in variant form like that, is not something I will ever like.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    OK, let me explain that better. Why is it that most things are best the first time? Unless something has significant narrative depth that you learn more and more each time you watch it (a rare feat that only occurs in the best of the best) the first viewing, where you see the twists, and the second viewing, where you see all the foreshadowing leading to the twists, are usually the best.
    I suppose my quip there didn't quite communicate my meaning, then. My point is that, no, mystery is not the only, or even main, reason I keep watching anything. It's for good stories about characters I like. And action. Of course seeing the plot play out the first time is best because you don't know what will happen exactly, but that doesn't mean that any and all mystery and hidden information is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    But to all the people who aren't as cynical as us and didn't realise that there was no chance that Artemis would die, do you really think the scene of her being 'stabbed' would have been more effective if we already knew Aqualad was a mole?

    On Alienated, everything wasn't just done for the audience's benefit. Seeing how Aquaman and Superboy react to Aqualad being evil is important for their characters. And also, how about the impact to the audience? What is more dramatic? Learning that one of the main characters has turned evil, or being told from the start that he is a mole and that every evil thing he does is only him being undercover.
    You seem to be assuming that those things would play out precisely as they did, just with the audience knowing in advance that Aqualad was a mole. I am not. I fully expect they would be altered to take advantage of the audience knowing that, rather than left as-is, trying to take advantage of the audience not knowing it. Hence my earlier remark about how, without the time skip, we could follow Aqualad's infiltration from his point of view instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Seeing that all of a sudden, Aqualad was evil was a great twist.
    I could not possibly disagree more. That was by far the worst moment of season 2 so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    If we wanted to keep the plot of Invasion as it is,
    Let me cut you off there and make something clear: I would have absolutely no problem with altering the plot of Invasion in order to accommodate the telling of the events that occurred in the time skip. I would by far prefer it and think it would greatly improve the show, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Now, please note that the Light's entire plan in season one was to create the 16 hours and set the stage for season 2. Until the kroloteans came, the Light was mostly waiting patiently, doing little of consequence.
    And? Why not have the Kroloteans come faster, then? Or include encounters with other villains, such as these "Reach" or someone from Apokolypse, to forshadow future events? Or even change the Light's plans so that they are doing something in the meantime? There are other ways this could all have been done - ways which, by eliminating the time skip, would greatly improve things.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    So what you are saying is that with every new fact that is revealed, Invasion is getting stronger? Like how the original series kept getting better with each reveal, like when we learnt that there was a mole on the team or when we saw every member’s pasts came to light?
    Not like that, no. Invasion gets stronger as more facts are revealed because as that happens it starts to shed the problems of the time skip - we learn what happened to drive Superboy and Miss Martian apart, we learn that Aqualad was not ruined by changing in a completely unebelievable fashion in the interim but is simply undercover, we learn how Beast Boy came to the team. (We see Lagoon Boy get captured and presumably won't have to put up with his awful puns for a while .) As I said, the season improves not because the information was kept from us, but because we finally get it filled in.

    Put another way, what quality the second season has is in spite of the time skip, never because of it. Thus why I have naught but condemnation for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx
    Hell legend of Korra didn't tell the audience what happened to Aang 40 years ago even though other members of the cast knew about it;
    There's a big difference there as well: the lead characters, Korra and her friends, did not know about it, and those that did were not aware of its relevance to the current situation. Again, nothing like in this show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    There's a big difference there as well: the lead characters, Korra and her friends, did not know about it, and those that did were not aware of its relevance to the current situation. Again, nothing like in this show.
    Tenzin and Beifong knew, but Korra and the gang did not... Nightwing, wally and artemis knew about Aqualad but the rest of the tema did not... Really all young justice did was put you in the same shoes as the other members of the team.


    Really, Characters keep secrets from the audience ALL THE TIME. Characters often know things that the audience does not so that they can surprise you...
    Allow me to paraphrase an expert to explain it

    Everyone knows that plans only work if you keep them a secret first! If you talk about them and then they happen exactly that way, there's no tension!
    What about our plan to bring back V; we talked about that
    Ok Yeah, but that was totally boring.

    I guess your idea is ok... if you prefer dull efficiency over exciting uncertainty

    Insofar as repulsion at the idea that they were actually doing such a bad twist without even showing it happen counts as an emotional response, no, I can't say it didn't provoke an emotional response. That's not a good sort of emotional response, however.
    If they showed it happen, then it wouldn't BE a plot twist... Plot twists are built on secrets and details that the audience does not know and are kept in the secret about; that's what makes them unexpected... The most you ever get is small tiny details that don't give it away, but make sense in hindsight... if you know EVERYTHING that's going on, then nothing unexpected will happen. Our heroes would never be able to shock or surprise us.
    Last edited by slayerx; 2012-06-13 at 02:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    The other thing we have to take into account is the tie in comic... I don't think the tie in comic is gonna pursue a timeskip... with the tv show skipping over those 5 years, that gives the comic book 5 years worth of story material to fill in... it can give its readers the origins of characters and use those characters that were on the team but left during the 5 years. Hell the details that the comics might go into is already making me interested in following the comic if its as well written as the show. The two basically will wind up complimenting each other.

    The new Comic shows the current team with the new members on the cover. So I think it will follow the timeskip now.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Events that happen in between the timeskip will be covered by the tie-in Young Justice Legacy game. The tagline is One Will Rise. One Will Fall. One Will Die.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    No - I have the idea that the viewer should know everything the protagonists do at any given time. If information is unknown to the protagonists, I'm fine with the viewer not knowing it either. I am not fine with the characters we're supposed to be following and cheering for knowing things that we do not.
    I have to totally disagree with you there.

    That's a major narrative device, used in, well, pretty much EVERYTHING. Watching people come up with a plan, and have it going off as intended is needlessly repetative, which is why nobody does it (except, maybe in computer games, where the player is actively doing the work).

    Think about how many times you've seen the good guys come up with a plan, say "here's what we do" and fade to black. The plan being carried out is then seen more or less by switching the viewpoint of the observer to the same knowledge as the villains (so it comes as much as surprise to the viewer as the bad guy), and do the explanation afterwards, if needed.

    Pretty much everything does that, from Babylon 5 to CSI to OotS to Star Wars (see Thrawn's typical tactics, and the explanation of how they work to his Captain as they are carried out) to the fracking A-Team (because how much of the impact would be lost if we saw the A Team Invention fully before it burst out of the warehouse with a mortar or a flamethrower attached?)

    The only time we see a plan being discussed ahead of time is if something goes wrong. (See Dastardly and Muttley, the invasion of the Fire Nation in Avatar season 3 etc etc). (Because in order to see something go wrong, you have to know what the "right" was in the first place.) The paraphrase by Elan is basically true, from a narrative convention standpoint. You don't need to see the heroes discussing the plan (show, remember, don't tell) if the plan works; it needlessly kills the tension off. And wastes screen time telling us something twice on top.

    Aqualad's "defection" is exactly the same thing. It wouldn't have been nearly so effective - and in fact would have come across as lazy writing, because it would be repetative, and there would no tension - if we'd known about it ahead of time and it succeed like it has. I mean, they had most of us going there for a minute or two, which wouldn't have worked at all if we'd known ahead of time. I, personally, commend them for a spectacular piece of writing for that.



    Now that we, the viewers, know about it, it's probably going to go wrong at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    If they showed it happen, then it wouldn't BE a plot twist... Plot twists are built on secrets and details that the audience does not know and are kept in the secret about; that's what makes them unexpected... The most you ever get is small tiny details that don't give it away, but make sense in hindsight... if you know EVERYTHING that's going on, then nothing unexpected will happen. Our heroes would never be able to shock or surprise us.
    Exactly.

    And I consider a writer being able to surprise me (with a sensible plot twist I genuinely don't see coming) to be a mark of high quality.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-06-13 at 06:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Events that happen in between the timeskip will be covered by the tie-in Young Justice Legacy game. The tagline is One Will Rise. One Will Fall. One Will Die.
    Sounds cool.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    RE: Time Skip

    I think time skips (or time travel in general) can be an interesting story telling device. Time travel can be used to explore themes of fate (set right what once went wrong, or you can't change fate, unintended consequences), metaphysics (butterfly effect, Hitler immunity, alternate timelines), and/or set up and solve mysteries (what really happened?).

    But I don't think time travel/skips work well when applied to a large ensemble cast of characters. There are just too many different subplots and relationships that you're skipping over and then telling in retrospect. It breaks the cardinal rule of story telling - show don't tell.

    For example, compare the first season of Heroes to every other season of Heroes. In the first season, young Hiro Nakamura time stopping/travel powers, and Isaac Mendez has precognitive paintings. These are used as framing devices for a larger mysteries - how do we stop whoever is killing the Evolved Humans, and how do we prevent New York from being blown up in a nuclear explosion. (Answer to both: Save the Cheerleader). In every other season, multiple characters appear from the past or future and/or jump around in various timelines, and the whole thing become a narrative mess.

    I think this also applies to Young Justice. It would be fine if a few characters were time travelers or pre-cogs or whatever. But having EVERYONE's story/character completely messed with just makes things a confusing mess.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    One shall rise, one shall fall? What is it, a Transformers crossover?

    ...but seriously, I have zero problem with the timeskip. Primarily because it allows us to skip over five years and get right to the Next Big Event (the titular 'Invasion'), instead of showing those five years...and (a) having the fans complain about things happening to fast, (b) being cancelled before getting to the meat of the story, or (c) both.

    Remember that this really is not Season Two of YJ. This is season one of YJI. So of course stuff happened in between, just as it did between the end of JL and the start of JLU. That was later shown - in a roundabout, alternate-universe way, in Crisis on Two Earths; this will be shown in the tie-in video game.

    And finally, this may or may not be relevant.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    ...Looks like I'll need to wait for the full-season DVD release. I've missed far too many episodes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Tenzin and Beifong knew, but Korra and the gang did not... Nightwing, wally and artemis knew about Aqualad but the rest of the tema did not... Really all young justice did was put you in the same shoes as the other members of the team.
    You missed the other important part: the characters that were aware of what happened with Yakkone were not aware of its relevance to the current situation. Again, not the case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    If they showed it happen, then it wouldn't BE a plot twist...
    And I haven't yet gotten across the fact that I absolutely loathed that move and would be completely fine - indeed, would find it far preferable - if it had not been a "plot twist" in any sense? I should think my repeated statements to that effect should have given that impression by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    if you know EVERYTHING that's going on, then nothing unexpected will happen. Our heroes would never be able to shock or surprise us.
    And I am not suggesting that we be told everything in advance. Not every unknown in the story is dependent on the time skip. I am suggesting that the time skip is a terrible, very frustrating, very irritating way to introduce further unknowns into the story, and is not a tool that should have been used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I have to totally disagree with you there.

    That's a major narrative device, used in, well, pretty much EVERYTHING. Watching people come up with a plan, and have it going off as intended is needlessly repetative, which is why nobody does it (except, maybe in computer games, where the player is actively doing the work).

    Think about how many times you've seen the good guys come up with a plan, say "here's what we do" and fade to black. The plan being carried out is then seen more or less by switching the viewpoint of the observer to the same knowledge as the villains (so it comes as much as surprise to the viewer as the bad guy), and do the explanation afterwards, if needed.
    A major difference being that such plans tend to be resolved immediately afterward, not over the course of a whole season. Here that would be the equivalent of filling us in on everything that occurred in the timeskip in the first episode - in which case it would still be irritating that they skipped those stories rather than told them, but would be more bearable at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Aqualad's "defection" is exactly the same thing. It wouldn't have been nearly so effective - and in fact would have come across as lazy writing, because it would be repetative, and there would no tension - if we'd known about it ahead of time and it succeed like it has. I mean, they had most of us going there for a minute or two, which wouldn't have worked at all if we'd known ahead of time. I, personally, commend them for a spectacular piece of writing for that.
    I don't agree at all (especially about that last sentence). Again, you seem to assume that the episodes as we've seen them would play out the same regardless of us being told about Aqualad being a mole, while I do not. I would rather see the story of how he convinced Black Manta of his defection, of what challenges he faced doing so, of what difficult decisions he may have been forced to make to keep his cover (such as this week's capture of Lagoon Boy, for one example), than be temporarily convinced that the writers had ruined one of my favorite characters.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    I don't have time to address what everyone has said, but there is a few points I have to address.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    A major difference being that such plans tend to be resolved immediately afterward, not over the course of a whole season. Here that would be the equivalent of filling us in on everything that occurred in the timeskip in the first episode - in which case it would still be irritating that they skipped those stories rather than told them, but would be more bearable at least.
    No they don't. If you look at the plan Elan was talking about when we were quoting him, we have no idea when that unspoken plan will occur. The only thing we do know is that it won't be at the end of Giriad's Gate, because Elan needs to prepare it with Durkon AND he has no idea that his father is currently fighting them. And considering the next arc will likely give another villain, probably Xykon, a chance to shine, it is going to be at least two story arcs before we find out.

    The reason I mentioned Ocean's 11, Hustle and Leverage above is that they belong to a genre, the con genre, that relies on having the characters know something at the very beginning of the story that the audience doesn't know. The only other genre to take this level of secrecy is the spy genre, which Young Justice has been in ever since the words 'covert ops team' appeared and became even more important once they actually got around to doing proper spy stuff like using double agents.


    I don't agree at all (especially about that last sentence). Again, you seem to assume that the episodes as we've seen them would play out the same regardless of us being told about Aqualad being a mole, while I do not. I would rather see the story of how he convinced Black Manta of his defection, of what challenges he faced doing so, of what difficult decisions he may have been forced to make to keep his cover (such as this week's capture of Lagoon Boy, for one example), than be temporarily convinced that the writers had ruined one of my favorite characters.
    I am not saying that all the episodes will play out the same. What I am saying is that if we saw Aqualad's story about how he gained Black Manta's trust, we would either have to stall the metaplot until he gained Black manta's trust or have a situation where by the time that Aqualad has gained Black Manta's trust, it is already too late in the story to be that effective.

    Because the fact is, however you plot Invasion, you still need to have the Reach and Darkseid having been fought, and by the time that Aqualad finally gets deep enough, it is likely that the Reach plotline will already be ending so they can move onto the Darkseid plotline, which causes a problem as Darkseid appears to be the Light's enemy, considering they attacked Intergang, a group that Desaad personally supplied tech to. Therefore, having a mole in the Light isn't that useful.

    And also, moles and double agents nearly always work better as twists. THere is a reason they have become such a staple in spy fiction
    Last edited by SecondRevan; 2012-06-14 at 05:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Because the fact is, however you plot Invasion, you still need to have the Reach and Darkseid having been fought, and by the time that Aqualad finally gets deep enough, it is likely that the Reach plotline will already be ending so they can move onto the Darkseid plotline, which causes a problem as Darkseid appears to be the Light's enemy, considering they attacked Intergang, a group that Desaad personally supplied tech to. Therefore, having a mole in the Light isn't that useful.

    And also, moles and double agents nearly always work better as twists. THere is a reason they have become such a staple in spy fiction
    Ummm you seem to be assuming a whole lot about where the show is going just to justify your point. We don't KNOW that darkseid will be involved this season, in fact its likely we wont see him off his throne until season three. Unless they have some way to top him next season (NOTE: The people involved in young justice be crazy, they might just find a way to top Darkseid.) Also i think there is far too much meat and potential for good drama in the idea of watching Aqualad gain the trust of Black Manta for it to be dismissed as a wasted plot line that would have stalled the show. Which it could easily not have done, it isn't like every time a character gets an episode to flesh them out it stalls the plot. Really you could say the more character centric episodes are the best in the series. You don't lose the opportunity for twists either, you could always wind up with aquagirl not dead and along side him as a mole using a glamor charm, there you have your mandatory story can not be good without it double agent on top of the twist. Ooooohhhh good opportunity for development with Garth Aqualad and Aquagirl as well there. Im not going to fully condemn the idea of a time skip yet. I think a smaller skip would have been better, or perhaps have the first several episodes of the season be a small time skip leading up to THE MISSION, you know the one i'm talking about, the one where all this drama seems to have started. After that you do another time skip till now, perhaps you don't tell us Aqualad is the mole yet though if you insist he still be a secret mole. That way we still get too see one of the most level headed and clear thinking leader type guys in the show actually fall. Let us see it, don't just tell us afterword about it happening and expect it to hold the same, or any, amount of drama and gravity. Anywho the show seems to be surviving the missteps and still going strong, but the time skip is by NO means the only or best way to tell the story that they want to tell.
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  23. - Top - End - #743
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    So first off, YJ is now on hiatus, which sucks. I don't think a definitive date has been set yet for the next episode, though I've read some rumors that it might be announced soon.

    On another note, Zevox, brace yourself. Greg Weisman, the show creator, has said that if there is a Season Three there will be another timeskip between seasons. He says so here. I'd be lying if I said I didn't find this a little funny given the recent discussion here...
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Well, I for one, am feeling the aster at the very mention of a third season. Then again, I wasn't particularly turbed, heavy on the dis, by the second season timeskip like some other people seem to be. Different expectations from fiction lend different levels of whelment, I suppose.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    I liked the timeskip myself, and I'm pleased with this season overall so far, so I say bring on Season 3!

    kpenguin, I chuckled at the Robin-esque words in your comment, but I have to admit that for some reason (sleepiness?) I can't figure out what word "aster" is supposed to be an alteration / abbreviation of. Is feeling the aster positive or negative?
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2012-06-16 at 03:30 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #746
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    kpenguin, I chuckled at the Robin-esque words in your comment, but I have to admit that for some reason (sleepiness?) I can't figure out what word "aster" is supposed to be an alteration / abbreviation of. Is feeling the aster positive or negative?
    Dis

    I think it's supposed to be positive?

  27. - Top - End - #747
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    I liked the timeskip myself, and I'm pleased with this season overall so far, so I say bring on Season 3!

    kpenguin, I chuckled at the Robin-esque words in your comment, but I have to admit that for some reason (sleepiness?) I can't figure out what word "aster" is supposed to be an alteration / abbreviation of. Is feeling the aster positive or negative?
    Like Jaros said, aster is derived from disaster. I believe Dick formulated it in "Schooled" It's a positive feeling. I'm basically saying that a third season would be totally crash and I'm not at all moded by the premise of another timeskip
    Last edited by kpenguin; 2012-06-16 at 03:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Oh, right, I remember now. Glad its positive. I'm feeling the aster too.
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  29. - Top - End - #749
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    I wonder if there's a list of Robinisms anywhere. I'm actually beginning to miss them being in Dick's vocab. Playing around with words like that reminded me of me, at times.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    i've been pretty whelmed and turbed by the season so far, I think it's an aster.
    (...and that's about it if memory serves. He really didn't do it that much actualy, whelmed and aster jsut came up a ouple of time as small running gags)
    Last edited by smuchmuch; 2012-06-16 at 04:06 PM.
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