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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Like Jaros said, aster is derived from disaster. I believe Dick formulated it in "Schooled" It's a positive feeling. I'm basically saying that a third season would be totally crash and I'm not at all moded by the premise of another timeskip
    Be careful. Crash and Mode mean different things to different people. Impulse sees crash as good and mode as bad, but the Partner was very upset about about Impulse crashing the mode.



    I have to say, while I love the use of the time skips to provide the necessary foundations the show needs, I wonder how they will do a third time skip, as the second time skip nearly bought them to the modern DC universe. Which makes me wonder how long the next time skip (Probably not as long) will be and who they can add.

    My guess would be Batgirl becomes Oracle and Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown will be added to the team (hopefully both) and they still haven't used Supergirl, so she could be added. But there aren't too many big name characters left to add to the team, though they could rewrite Kyle Rayner or Jade's ages like they did with Zatanna and throw a Green Lantern into the team. The other person who might be added is Static, considering the rumours about his appearance. They could add some Teen Titans, but they have to be careful of not making things too similar to the new Titans show. It will be interesting to see what happens in season 3
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    The other person who might be added is Static, considering the rumours about his appearance.
    Well, technically he's already had a cameo (in the JL museum scene in one episode) and

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    some people think one of the cyrosleeping abductees with Longshadow is Static.

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    Are you sure it was a cameo? I've heard people suspect that, but no confirmation.

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    Also, the possibility of him being one of the abductees is what I meant by rumours
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Well, let's see:
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    ...looks like it to me, at least.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I am not saying that all the episodes will play out the same. What I am saying is that if we saw Aqualad's story about how he gained Black Manta's trust, we would either have to stall the metaplot until he gained Black manta's trust or have a situation where by the time that Aqualad has gained Black Manta's trust, it is already too late in the story to be that effective.

    Because the fact is, however you plot Invasion, you still need to have the Reach and Darkseid having been fought, and by the time that Aqualad finally gets deep enough, it is likely that the Reach plotline will already be ending so they can move onto the Darkseid plotline, which causes a problem as Darkseid appears to be the Light's enemy, considering they attacked Intergang, a group that Desaad personally supplied tech to. Therefore, having a mole in the Light isn't that useful.
    You seem to be assuming a very specific, very unbendable plan of progression for the story, both for the actual one we're getting and for the alternate one I've suggested. Lets just say that I find that a very unconvincing argument to make, given we're discussing a hypothetical alternate version of a story that we so far have only seen the beginning of.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    So first off, YJ is now on hiatus, which sucks. I don't think a definitive date has been set yet for the next episode, though I've read some rumors that it might be announced soon.
    Sheesh, what is it with this show and hiatuses? We're on what, number three now? Four maybe? Lets just hope this one doesn't last several months like the others...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    On another note, Zevox, brace yourself. Greg Weisman, the show creator, has said that if there is a Season Three there will be another timeskip between seasons. He says so here. I'd be lying if I said I didn't find this a little funny given the recent discussion here...
    *headdesk* *repeatedly*

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Well, I for one, am feeling the aster at the very mention of a third season. Then again, I wasn't particularly turbed, heavy on the dis, by the second season timeskip like some other people seem to be. Different expectations from fiction lend different levels of whelment, I suppose.
    Don't you make me reach through the internet and strangle you. Because I will find a way to do that. One of the upsides of season 2 (and late season 1) has been that Robin/Nightwing finally stopped doing that. I definitely do not want that to start popping up outside the show now that it's finally gone inside it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown will be added to the team (hopefully both)
    I really hope not. We've already got too many bat-characters as it is, we do not need two more.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    But there aren't too many big name characters left to add to the team, though they could rewrite Kyle Rayner or Jade's ages like they did with Zatanna and throw a Green Lantern into the team.
    Jade might work, and I think I'd actually like to see that. Though explaining that she's the daughter of a Green Lantern that hasn't appeared in the show and is unrelated to the ones that have might be an issue.

    Kyle wouldn't work unless they change the way the Green Lantern Corps works. They don't recruit kids. Because, you know, space cops charged with patrolling vast portions of the universe - not the kind of job you want kids doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    The other person who might be added is Static, considering the rumours about his appearance.
    I could see that, and wouldn't mind it. I didn't watch much of his show back when it was on, but I enjoyed most of what I caught of it.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    You seem to be assuming a very specific, very unbendable plan of progression for the story, both for the actual one we're getting and for the alternate one I've suggested. Lets just say that I find that a very unconvincing argument to make, given we're discussing a hypothetical alternate version of a story that we so far have only seen the beginning of.
    Actually, I'm trying to find the essential components of the story, using information from Season 1, and to me they are 'The Light attempts to complete Stage 2' and 'the Apokolypse subplot develops'. And that requires the Reach and Darkseid, unless we drop the Invasion aspect and change everything so that Phase 2 is completely different. But if we do that, we aren't talking about Invasion anymore.

    Sheesh, what is it with this show and hiatuses? We're on what, number three now? Four maybe? Lets just hope this one doesn't last several months like the others...
    The hiatus is apparently because it is summer and most kids are on holiday and therefore won't be watching new episodes. That is why we had the other really big one, though I can't explain the other smaller ones.

    I really hope not. We've already got too many bat-characters as it is, we do not need two more.
    Personally, I care more about characters than powers. And both of the have two very distinct characterisations from the rest of the bat-family.

    Jade might work, and I think I'd actually like to see that. Though explaining that she's the daughter of a Green Lantern that hasn't appeared in the show and is unrelated to the ones that have might be an issue.
    Alan Scott has been in Young Justice, though only in a flashback. According to Ask Greg, they have even reworked his backstory so it fits better with the Green Lantern Corp. Apparently, his ring isn't magic, but a damaged Green lantern Ring that has most of the powers, but not the connection to the Corp. So they could fit Jade in very easily.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Don't you make me reach through the internet and strangle you. Because I will find a way to do that. One of the upsides of season 2 (and late season 1) has been that Robin/Nightwing finally stopped doing that. I definitely do not want that to start popping up outside the show now that it's finally gone inside it.
    While it is perfectly respectable to dislike Robin's malapropisms, and you're certainly free to dislike them with vehemence, it is a part of Young Justicethat I enjoy and I reserve the right to celebrate and use them as I see fit within the Young Justice thread.
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Actually, I'm trying to find the essential components of the story, using information from Season 1, and to me they are 'The Light attempts to complete Stage 2' and 'the Apokolypse subplot develops'. And that requires the Reach and Darkseid, unless we drop the Invasion aspect and change everything so that Phase 2 is completely different. But if we do that, we aren't talking about Invasion anymore.
    And those elements are very general, not a highly specific plan that would be completely disrupted by following events from an earlier point, as you seemed to be assuming earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Personally, I care more about characters than powers. And both of the have two very distinct characterisations from the rest of the bat-family.
    Powers matter when you've got a series with as much action as, well, any superhero series, this one included. Too many people with the same abilities gets stale.

    And personally, I just don't like Batman in general, and all of his spin-off characters are way to close to him to ever appeal to me. Robin being around I had no problem with - he's just one character, and I can of course handle one character I'm not a fan of being in a team show, even if he's an important one. Plus he's of course too much of an obvious choice given the show's basic premise. But now they've upped his importance by putting him in charge of the team and added another Robin and Batgirl. If the latter two were getting much more screen time than they have so far, I would probably be getting quite bothered by it. If they add even more, I definitely will.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Alan Scott has been in Young Justice, though only in a flashback.
    Really? When was that? I don't recall it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    According to Ask Greg, they have even reworked his backstory so it fits better with the Green Lantern Corp. Apparently, his ring isn't magic, but a damaged Green lantern Ring that has most of the powers, but not the connection to the Corp. So they could fit Jade in very easily.
    Huh, weird. That actually makes Jade harder to do though, since Alan's powers not being magic makes it much less sensible for her to be born with Green Lantern-esque abilities. The space cop Green Lantern rings don't cause anything like that. And obviously she's not going to get a ring of her own, because, well, see my previous post about the Corps not recruiting kids.

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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Personally, I care more about characters than powers. And both of the have two very distinct characterisations from the rest of the bat-family.
    Indeed, ever since i read cassandra's run as batgirl i have been wanting to see her in animation; she is an excellent and interesting character. Hell, after Lian Harper popped up i almost expect weisman to bring her in... After what DC did to Lian, i almost feel like her inclusion in the the show is kind of a shout out to all those fans who loved her but hated what DC did to her (killing her for shock value and then rebooting her from existence)... Another i feel is using the reboot to undo Barbara's time as oracle and remove Cassandra and Stephenie. So i kinda expect that the season 3 timeskip would result in Barbara becoming Oracle, becoming the op's manager for the team, and and Cassandra being added to the team as batgirl... Not so sure if they would manage to fit Stephanie in. Hell part of me feels like the reason batgirl is present so that it would feel more natural if they make her oracle if they got a season 3

    Alan Scott has been in Young Justice, though only in a flashback. According to Ask Greg, they have even reworked his backstory so it fits better with the Green Lantern Corp. Apparently, his ring isn't magic, but a damaged Green lantern Ring that has most of the powers, but not the connection to the Corp. So they could fit Jade in very easily.
    Not so sure about that. Alan Scott was a member of the JLA back when Kent Nelson was Dr. Fate and Jay Garrick was the flash... Alan scott would likely be an old man by now and thus too old to have a teenage daughter. If anything she would be old enough to be part of the Justice league.

    Though i guess if they really wanted her on the show, the could rewrite her to be Alan Scott's grand daughter, instead of his daughter...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox
    Really? When was that? I don't recall it.
    I believe it was in the episode where we found out the origins of Red Tornado. There was scenes of him when he joined the JLA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox
    Huh, weird. That actually makes Jade harder to do though, since Alan's powers not being magic makes it much less sensible for her to be born with Green Lantern-esque abilities. The space cop Green Lantern rings don't cause anything like that. And obviously she's not going to get a ring of her own, because, well, see my previous post about the Corps not recruiting kids.
    Well they are already loose enough on origins to have rewritten Beastboy's origin, so they would do the same...
    Last edited by slayerx; 2012-06-17 at 08:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I really hope not. We've already got too many bat-characters as it is, we do not need two more.
    I agree. I like having a young Robin being on a team lead by his predecessor, but Robin and Batgirl I think is too much. Not that I don't like either of them, but three Bat-heroes on a team of ten? (Not counting those retired or undercover)

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Kyle wouldn't work unless they change the way the Green Lantern Corps works. They don't recruit kids.
    Kai-ro disagrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    I believe it was in the episode where we found out the origins of Red Tornado. There was scenes of him when he joined the JLA

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    Ah, okay. Very minor moment where he simply cameod, that explains why I didn't remember it.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Well they are already loose enough on origins to have rewritten Beastboy's origin, so they would do the same...
    How though? How do you give a character Green Lantern-like powers without having a ring or having them born with it? They're a pretty darn unusual power set, not anything as generic as shape-shifting. The only way in the comics is for them to be possessed by one of the entities, and I don't see how they could bring Ion into it. Well, that or being one of the Guardians of the Universe, who seem to have the ability to tap into any of the lights of the emotional spectrum, but that's obviously inapplicable.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bushranger View Post
    And Arisia, pre-retcon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    And those elements are very general, not a highly specific plan that would be completely disrupted by following events from an earlier point, as you seemed to be assuming earlier.
    Except you still have to fit those elements into twenty episodes, as well as all the other subplots (which will be changed but still have to exist) and the plot elements we don't know about (which will have to be changed but still have to exist). If Invasion is one thing, it is very tight. If you attempt to rework the plot so that the Aqualad subplot takes longer (by stretching the least important part of the subplot), it will negatively affect all the other plot elements by taking away valuable time from whatever subplot Miss Martian has in this new story, or whatever plan the Light have for phase 2. IT also negatively affects the Aqualad plotline as the important part of Aqualad's undercover plotline (what happens when he is finally trusted) has to be cut so that we can see more about how he became trusted, while still staying within 20 episodes

    Powers matter when you've got a series with as much action as, well, any superhero series, this one included. Too many people with the same abilities gets stale.
    Except you don't have to use every character in the same episode. And you can combine them with other higher powered characters like Miss Martian and Wonder Girl to create that diversity.

    Anyway, if JLU proved anything, it is possible to do an episode full of low powered characters without hurting it. JLU managed to do an episode with Green Arrow, Black Canary, Question and Huntress by a writer who prefers to focus on Black Canary's physical abilities with no problem.

    And personally, I just don't like Batman in general, and all of his spin-off characters are way to close to him to ever appeal to me. Robin being around I had no problem with - he's just one character, and I can of course handle one character I'm not a fan of being in a team show, even if he's an important one. Plus he's of course too much of an obvious choice given the show's basic premise. But now they've upped his importance by putting him in charge of the team and added another Robin and Batgirl. If the latter two were getting much more screen time than they have so far, I would probably be getting quite bothered by it. If they add even more, I definitely will.
    Do you have any idea about the characterisations of Cassandra or Stephanie? I can understand not liking Batman, and many of his characters are very similar. But Cassandra and Stephanie are very distinct. Cassandra is closer to Artemis than Batman, and Stephanie makes Wonder Girl look reserved.

    Saying that there are too many bat characters is neglecting the fact that there is much more to the characters than simply 'trained by batman'. Just because they share some things does not mean they can't be characters as distinct, if not more distinct, than the other characters'


    Really? When was that? I don't recall it.
    Humanity was the episode where they try and find Red Tornado after Morrow hacks him

    Huh, weird. That actually makes Jade harder to do though, since Alan's powers not being magic makes it much less sensible for her to be born with Green Lantern-esque abilities. The space cop Green Lantern rings don't cause anything like that. And obviously she's not going to get a ring of her own, because, well, see my previous post about the Corps not recruiting kids.
    Not really, as Jade can inherit the ring instead. They might have to change her appearance, or give a new reason why she is green, but she is still easy to do. They could say something as simple as repeated use of the ring changed Alan Scott's DNA in some way, for example
    Last edited by SecondRevan; 2012-06-17 at 08:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Except you still have to fit those elements into twenty episodes, as well as all the other subplots (which will be changed but still have to exist) and the plot elements we don't know about (which will have to be changed but still have to exist). If Invasion is one thing, it is very tight.
    I don't believe it's so tight that the time skip was necessary at all. And even if it were, I'd still rather it be re-written to not use that. It's just that bad of a move in my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Do you have any idea about the characterisations of Cassandra or Stephanie? I can understand not liking Batman, and many of his characters are very similar. But Cassandra and Stephanie are very distinct. Cassandra is closer to Artemis than Batman, and Stephanie makes Wonder Girl look reserved.
    No, I don't. It doesn't matter though. They'll look like Batman, because they're Batgirls. They'll fight like Batman, because they're Batgirls. To some extent or another, even if it's just doing basic detective work and being stealthy, they'll act like Batman as well, because they wouldn't be bat-characters otherwise. The similarities that just being one of Batman's spin-offs inherently gives them are enough to lose me, regardless of their particular personalities. That association is just not something they can overcome with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Not really, as Jade can inherit the ring instead.
    Hm, true, I suppose. That would actually neatly tie up both her not being born with the powers and him being too old to have a teenage daughter: he retires and gives it to his granddaughter/niece/adopted daughter/whatever. Though it would raise the question of why he gave the ring to a teenager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I don't believe it's so tight that the time skip was necessary at all. And even if it were, I'd still rather it be re-written to not use that. It's just that bad of a move in my mind.
    Hoever you have to take into account how long it would take to play out all the material you would want added... The stuff with Ocean Master, the death of Tula, Superboy and Megann's break up, the death of Beast boy's mother, Wally and artemis quiting the team, Robin becoming nightwing, Aqualad's defection, Aqualad's time under Black Manta, intro episodes for ALL of the new recruits... you put it all together and you pretty much got another season's worth of material

    Maybe it could work, but weisman did not know if they would get more than 2 seasons... meaning if they tried to play out EVERYTHING, then they might end up with a series without and ending since they did not leave themselves enough time to finish the story that they really wanted to tell. (kinda like how Avengers EMH is gonna end without ever closing one of their on going plots... they spent so much time playing around with other plots that they didn't finish one big that they building up too)... So instead wiesman used the timeskip and used it to its most by setting up a number of mysteries that could and has kept many watchers intrigued as they try to piece together what occured in the past 5 years.

    No, I don't. It doesn't matter though. They'll look like Batman, because they're Batgirls. They'll fight like Batman, because they're Batgirls. To some extent or another, even if it's just doing basic detective work and being stealthy, they'll act like Batman as well, because they wouldn't be bat-characters otherwise. The similarities that just being one of Batman's spin-offs inherently gives them are enough to lose me, regardless of their particular personalities. That association is just not something they can overcome with me.
    Ya... Cassandra doesn't do detective work as she can't read and for a very long time had a lot of trouble with simple speech due to the fact that she was raised without any known language and was instead raised to use pure body movement and martial arts to communicate.

    you see when it comes down to it, characters are more important than super powers. THAT is what makes the characters most endearing. Cassie did not win fans through fighting but by the way she struggled with the issues in her life and the relationships she shared with other characters...

    Hm, true, I suppose. That would actually neatly tie up both her not being born with the powers and him being too old to have a teenage daughter: he retires and gives it to his granddaughter/niece/adopted daughter/whatever. Though it would raise the question of why he gave the ring to a teenager.
    Maybe she stole it, like how Terry stole the bat suit in batman beyond... which then leads to her keeping it. A bit cliche but it could work.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan
    Not really, as Jade can inherit the ring instead. They might have to change her appearance, or give a new reason why she is green, but she is still easy to do. They could say something as simple as repeated use of the ring changed Alan Scott's DNA in some way, for example
    Well she could still inherit her mother's plant powers which in turn could be used as to the reason why she has green skin instead of it being an offshoot of alan scott's powers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    No, I don't. It doesn't matter though. They'll look like Batman, because they're Batgirls. They'll fight like Batman, because they're Batgirls. To some extent or another, even if it's just doing basic detective work and being stealthy, they'll act like Batman as well, because they wouldn't be bat-characters otherwise. The similarities that just being one of Batman's spin-offs inherently gives them are enough to lose me, regardless of their particular personalities. That association is just not something they can overcome with me.
    If Cassandra did detective work, you would know that the writers had done something wrong. She is highly dyslexic and with no formal education. SHe barely understands 90% of the stuff in her utility belt. Her fighting style will be more similar to Aqualad, actually, since Aqualad usually uses the waterbearers to create melee weapons. She can do stealth, as long as she doesn't need to hack a computer or anything at the end of it. She also gets a set of skills none of the other members of the batfamily get, like the ability to detect if someone is lying by looking at their body cues.

    Stephanie is a lot more similar to Batman in her capabilities, due to being a lot more normal than Cassandra, and therefore will use gadgets and do detective work. However, she doesn't have to be Batgirl and use her Spoiler identity, which prevents her from looking like Batman. Also, you are vastly understating how personalities can affect things. Like I said before, Stephanie would make 'Less fangirl and more' Wonder Girl look reserved. When she does stuff like detective work, she will do it in a very different way to how the rest of the Batfamily does it.

    And as Slayerx said, characterisation is always more important than powers.

    Hm, true, I suppose. That would actually neatly tie up both her not being born with the powers and him being too old to have a teenage daughter: he retires and gives it to his granddaughter/niece/adopted daughter/whatever. Though it would raise the question of why he gave the ring to a teenager.
    Not too hard to do. Many of the other heroes have no problem with their teenage counterparts fighting crime. And it isn't like she won't have a mentor, considering there are two green lanterns in the Justice League and Guy Gardener.

    Or they could do what slayerx is suggesting and do something similar to Batman Beyond
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Hoever you have to take into account how long it would take to play out all the material you would want added... The stuff with Ocean Master, the death of Tula, Superboy and Megann's break up, the death of Beast boy's mother, Wally and artemis quiting the team, Robin becoming nightwing, Aqualad's defection, Aqualad's time under Black Manta, intro episodes for ALL of the new recruits... you put it all together and you pretty much got another season's worth of material
    That depends on how you do it. You could probably stretch all that out for a full season if you wanted to, but I'd say you could also knock it out a relatively low number of episodes, if several of those things were tied to the same incident (if Wally and Artemis quit because of the incident involving Tula's death and Ocean Master, for instance). My suggestion would also be for fewer new recruits - maybe knock it down as low as just Blue Beetle and one other (Beast Boy or Wonder Girl being the first that come to mind for me) - especially if this hypothetical alternative also didn't do away with Zatanna and Rocket, which was one of my complaints that got lost in this discussion because nobody much disagreed with me about it. There's also time saved by not having to explain things to us in retrospect, thereby eliminating some parts of the story as we know it. Episode 3 starts to look a lot less important when it's no longer necessary to use it to introduce Aqualad's apparent defection, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Ya... Cassandra doesn't do detective work as she can't read and for a very long time had a lot of trouble with simple speech due to the fact that she was raised without any known language and was instead raised to use pure body movement and martial arts to communicate.
    Ah, right, I recall hearing about her in one of Linkara's videos now. Honestly, I can't say I like that character concept either though, so that doesn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Also, you are vastly understating how personalities can affect things.
    No, I am stating how I react to Batman and related characters. Personalities can't change how that works. Their association with Batman will inevitably affect and color the characters. That, as I said, is something that they cannot overcome with me.

    Anyway, I thought of a different character I'd like to see in a hypothetical season 3, if they're still adding new characters then: Firestorm. He's a character (or two, rather) that actually grabbed me in one of the few non-GL (or at least not entirely GL) comics I've read, Brightest Day. And even pre-reboot both Ronnie Raymond and Jason Rusch were only in college, so they wouldn't need to be de-aged much if at all to fit. They'd have some flexibility with him too, since they could choose to just use Ronnie, just use Jason, or use both, depending on how they chose to work Firestorm's powers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    And it isn't like she won't have a mentor, considering there are two green lanterns in the Justice League and Guy Gardner.
    "Hey guys, Guy could mentor -"

    "No."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    That depends on how you do it. You could probably stretch all that out for a full season if you wanted to, but I'd say you could also knock it out a relatively low number of episodes, if several of those things were tied to the same incident (if Wally and Artemis quit because of the incident involving Tula's death and Ocean Master, for instance). My suggestion would also be for fewer new recruits - maybe knock it down as low as just Blue Beetle and one other (Beast Boy or Wonder Girl being the first that come to mind for me) - especially if this hypothetical alternative also didn't do away with Zatanna and Rocket, which was one of my complaints that got lost in this discussion because nobody much disagreed with me about it. There's also time saved by not having to explain things to us in retrospect, thereby eliminating some parts of the story as we know it. Episode 3 starts to look a lot less important when it's no longer necessary to use it to introduce Aqualad's apparent defection, for instance.
    Still, you have the problem in that during those episodes, the Light sit around in a room looking at each other awkwardly and doing nothing. Phase 2 cannot begin until aliens invade Earth, which means while you do all that maneuvering (and not all of it can be done with just Ocean Master's fall, like Superboy/Miss Martian's relationship).

    On Zatanna and Rocket, I stopped talking about them because there isn't much left to say. As I said before, I believe Greg Weisman said somewhere that he has a plan for those characters. Eventually, we will find out what those plans are, but it is hard to talk about them without the context that we are still waiting on. I did like Zatanna so I'm waiting patiently to see what happens. There will hopefully be something with Zatanna and Nightwing soon, as there have been some indicators (Nightwing and Wally's comments in Depths, and apparently some hints in episode 1, but I can't remember) that suggest there is something important between them.


    Ah, right, I recall hearing about her in one of Linkara's videos now. Honestly, I can't say I like that character concept either though, so that doesn't help.
    I've heard many say that one of the strength's of Cassandra was that she managed to be more than the concept. Instead of being a list of reasons why she was cool, they actually use it to develop a powerful quest or identity by taking advantage of the fact that she doesn't fit in.

    One of the most important things about an idea is the execution. Good ideas have been ruined by bad execution and bad ideas have been saved by good execution. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean the character will be written badly, if the writers are skilled enough to use it effectively

    No, I am stating how I react to Batman and related characters. Personalities can't change how that works. Their association with Batman will inevitably affect and color the characters. That, as I said, is something that they cannot overcome with me.
    I can't do anything to persuade you away from that. All I will say is I hope they ignore you and others who complain about too many bat-family members, and instead focus on putting the best cast of characters together, whether that means many bat-family characters or none at all.

    Anyway, I thought of a different character I'd like to see in a hypothetical season 3, if they're still adding new characters then: Firestorm. He's a character (or two, rather) that actually grabbed me in one of the few non-GL (or at least not entirely GL) comics I've read, Brightest Day. And even pre-reboot both Ronnie Raymond and Jason Rusch were only in college, so they wouldn't need to be de-aged much if at all to fit. They'd have some flexibility with him too, since they could choose to just use Ronnie, just use Jason, or use both, depending on how they chose to work Firestorm's powers.
    I would love them to add Firestorm. I love the dynamic of the two people sharing one body, though they have to be careful not to make it too similar to Blue Beetle





    Quote Originally Posted by The Bushranger View Post
    "Hey guys, Guy could mentor -"

    "No."
    That has to be my favourite part of that episode. Thanks for reminding me
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Still, you have the problem in that during those episodes, the Light sit around in a room looking at each other awkwardly and doing nothing. Phase 2 cannot begin until aliens invade Earth, which means while you do all that maneuvering (and not all of it can be done with just Ocean Master's fall, like Superboy/Miss Martian's relationship).
    You're making assumptions about things we don't know. And also ignoring my complete willingness to have parts of the story rewritten to suit the changes here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I've heard many say that one of the strength's of Cassandra was that she managed to be more than the concept. Instead of being a list of reasons why she was cool, they actually use it to develop a powerful quest or identity by taking advantage of the fact that she doesn't fit in.

    One of the most important things about an idea is the execution. Good ideas have been ruined by bad execution and bad ideas have been saved by good execution. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean the character will be written badly, if the writers are skilled enough to use it effectively
    And just because something is well-written doesn't mean everyone will like it. I'm sure there are a number of well-written Batman stories out there, but that doesn't make me any more interested in reading them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I can't do anything to persuade you away from that. All I will say is I hope they ignore you and others who complain about too many bat-family members, and instead focus on putting the best cast of characters together, whether that means many bat-family characters or none at all.
    I would hope that in a superhero team show one would come to the conclusion that the best cast of characters would also include the best variety of different superheroes. After all, if there's one thing superhero comics don't lack for, it's variety of characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    That has to be my favourite part of that episode.
    Agreed.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    One thing i will say, as much as Casandra Cain is one of my all time favorite characters in the DCU, and one of the best things to happen to batman in the last decade. Young Justice has too many options in a setting full of lesser known heroes in need to spotlight to justify bringing in a 4th, or possibly 5th if they do something like bring in Damien, member of the bat family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    You're making assumptions about things we don't know. And also ignoring my complete willingness to have parts of the story rewritten to suit the changes here.
    The problem is, certain aspects can't be changed. THe Light's plan is something that would have been worked on before Season 1 started, and an important part of the entire show, even in season 3 and beyond. Season 1 would have been written with the Light's plan in future seasons as an important part. And I'm pretty sure Phase 2 of the plan didn't start until the Invasion. To add the stuff you want, you would need to heavily edit season 1 and 2, including the season 1 finale heavily (to its detriment), as well as affecting Invasion and future seasons. WHat you are suggesting is reworking a large part of the entire show so that you have the Light doing something during a period of time that is ultimately unimportant to the show relative to the rest of of the events.


    And just because something is well-written doesn't mean everyone will like it. I'm sure there are a number of well-written Batman stories out there, but that doesn't make me any more interested in reading them.
    I care more about the quality of a show than whether my favourite characters will feature. I have no problem with Young Justice getting better. It might cause you to lose interest, but if it means I get to watch a better show, I don't care.

    I would hope that in a superhero team show one would come to the conclusion that the best cast of characters would also include the best variety of different superheroes. After all, if there's one thing superhero comics don't lack for, it's variety of characters.
    The best cast of characters is likely to be the one with the best variety of characters. The reason the batfamily works as a team is that each character is distinct, because if they weren't they wold be forgotten about. I wouldn't want the Team to be filled with batfamily members, as some subplots, like Miss Martian's telepathy subplot, Blue Beetle's relationship with the scarab or Superboy's Half-Krytonian nature, cannot be done be non-powered members. But the fact remains that a character's characterisation is more important than their powers.

    THere is more to Aqualad than 'Leader Water Guy'. There is more to Miss Martian than 'TK and Shapeshifting'. I would rather have a team with the exact same set of powers and a wide range of personalities than a team with a wide range of powers but the exact same personalty. So if creating a more varied set of personalities means increasing the ration of batfamily members and non-batfamily members, I have no problem with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    The problem is, certain aspects can't be changed. THe Light's plan is something that would have been worked on before Season 1 started, and an important part of the entire show, even in season 3 and beyond. Season 1 would have been written with the Light's plan in future seasons as an important part. And I'm pretty sure Phase 2 of the plan didn't start until the Invasion. To add the stuff you want, you would need to heavily edit season 1 and 2, including the season 1 finale heavily (to its detriment), as well as affecting Invasion and future seasons. WHat you are suggesting is reworking a large part of the entire show so that you have the Light doing something during a period of time that is ultimately unimportant to the show relative to the rest of of the events.

    You seem to be assuming that the light plan would HAVE to feature extra heavily. Honestly you could cover mid time skip in 4 episodes, and if you take all the time that's been spent in the show and all the subplots related to the time skip you could get roughly that amount of time. The most you would really need from the light is them reacting to the defeat and presumably unmasking of ocean master, which most likely is what lead to Tulas death anyways. It's a fair guess that Wally and Artemis ducked out of the tights as a result, and that in that time we could be shown Megan's increasing abuse of her psychic powers. We still leave the Truth about Kaldur a secret, but we make it less of an ass pull because we get shown the situation that "made him crack" instead of getting told about it later in an unbelievable way. Honestly i don't think they even need 4 episodes to do it but i figure that the for the sake of this argument ill throw you a bone and go with the long estimate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    So if creating a more varied set of personalities means increasing the ration of batfamily members and non-batfamily members, I have no problem with that.
    I'm not touching the bat familly stuff beyond saying this, you guys both have good points and your arguing about the wrong member anyways. I think that if any more bat people join they should bring in Damien. He is the Superboy to Batman backstory wise, and i think that Damien's interactions with Superboy would be an excellent opportunity that would be worth missing out on the chance to develop a lesser known character. Im really only saying that for Conners benefit anyways, he could benefit from having another test tube person around who isn't C-Roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    The problem is, certain aspects can't be changed. THe Light's plan is something that would have been worked on before Season 1 started, and an important part of the entire show, even in season 3 and beyond. Season 1 would have been written with the Light's plan in future seasons as an important part. And I'm pretty sure Phase 2 of the plan didn't start until the Invasion. To add the stuff you want, you would need to heavily edit season 1 and 2, including the season 1 finale heavily (to its detriment), as well as affecting Invasion and future seasons. WHat you are suggesting is reworking a large part of the entire show so that you have the Light doing something during a period of time that is ultimately unimportant to the show relative to the rest of of the events.
    Again, you assume far too much. We do not know the Light's plan, so for you to simply assert that the story could not have been written any other way without altering it fundamentally rings hollow. Especially when Ocean Master, a member of the Light, was apparently involved in something during the time skip period, meaning they were not inactive then.

    I especially see no reason for your assertion that season 1 would require any changes to this. There is a little foreshadowing of Invasion there, but it is scant, and I certainly see nothing in it that would require changing simply so that they could tell the stories they skipped over.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I would rather have a team with the exact same set of powers and a wide range of personalities than a team with a wide range of powers but the exact same personalty.
    You create a false dichotomy. As I pointed out, if there is one thing that superhero comics do not lack for, it's varied characters. And I wasn't simply referring to powers. There is no need to bring in more bat-characters just for the sake of variety of personality when there are plenty of other characters who would also add variety of personality who are not bat-characters.

    Simply put, you want those characters in because you like them, and thus would consider their addition an improvement. That's fine. But please stop pretending that because I do not want them in means I want the show to be worse in some way. This implication that I'm arguing for characters with power variety but no personality variety is getting very annoying, as it's a total straw man on your part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    You seem to be assuming that the light plan would HAVE to feature extra heavily. Honestly you could cover mid time skip in 4 episodes, and if you take all the time that's been spent in the show and all the subplots related to the time skip you could get roughly that amount of time. The most you would really need from the light is them reacting to the defeat and presumably unmasking of ocean master, which most likely is what lead to Tulas death anyways. It's a fair guess that Wally and Artemis ducked out of the tights as a result, and that in that time we could be shown Megan's increasing abuse of her psychic powers. We still leave the Truth about Kaldur a secret, but we make it less of an ass pull because we get shown the situation that "made him crack" instead of getting told about it later in an unbelievable way. Honestly i don't think they even need 4 episodes to do it but i figure that the for the sake of this argument ill throw you a bone and go with the long estimate.
    That could work, though there is my other, more important concern. Invasion is a 20 episode season, and so far it has been very tightly plotted, with every episode being in some way important to the plot. These four episodes would be nice to see, but aren't actually that important in the scheme of things (none of these events are important to Invasion in any way except as a means to place the characters where they need to be. If they are important, we would likely get a flashback episode or something to make up for it). SO if I give two episodes to these events (I don't think that is enough time for Me'gaan and Connor's relationship to develop realistically, but there needs to be at least two episodes), that is two episodes that you remove from Invasion, which will be very hard to recover considering how densely plotted the season is.

    I'm not touching the bat familly stuff beyond saying this, you guys both have good points and your arguing about the wrong member anyways. I think that if any more bat people join they should bring in Damien. He is the Superboy to Batman backstory wise, and i think that Damien's interactions with Superboy would be an excellent opportunity that would be worth missing out on the chance to develop a lesser known character. Im really only saying that for Conners benefit anyways, he could benefit from having another test tube person around who isn't C-Roy
    Damian would be very interesting, depending on how the timeline matches up. He and Superboy could have a very interesting relationship, if they focus more on the Test tube baby aspect. However, Damian will also need at least Nightwing and Robin, as a large portion of his character is his relationship with the other Robins
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Honestly i don't think they even need 4 episodes to do it but i figure that the for the sake of this argument ill throw you a bone and go with the long estimate.
    Unless you want a rushed story, i think it would take much more than just 4 episodes...

    First we need intro episodes for Blue Beetle, Beast Boy and Lagoon boy. Then we need an episode where Aqualad discover's his true heritage. Then we need the ocean master episode which likely is where Tula died (aqualad's and Lagoon's episode could work as build up to this episode). Then, considering the level of impact this would have on the team, we would need a follow up episode to show that impact. Next we need an episode of the team implementing their plan to get Aqualad to join Black Manta's ranks. But considering the light's experience with turn coat children, they will not so quick to accept aqualad, so we will need several more episodes of Aqualad being tested and earning their trust. We also need an episode that would finally drive in the nail for Superboy and Megann's relationship. With build up episodes to help keep everything nicely paced we are looking at about half a season's worth of material; And this is assuming that what we got so far is enough time to show the build up for Superboy and Megan's break, as well as build up the beginning of her relationship with lagoon boy. And this is assuming no one else on the team becomes important to the main plot and i'm not missing anything.


    And so far, every episode of season 2 has been part of the build up towards the light's partner and their ultimate plan... there are no filler episodes that can be out right removed as each episode contributes something; the amount of time we could remove from the current crop of episodes "thanks" to having all those other episodes would amount to nothing more than a few minutes each episode.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Unless you want a rushed story, i think it would take much more than just 4 episodes...

    First we need intro episodes for Blue Beetle, Beast Boy and Lagoon boy.
    Honestly we could skip them until the time skip proper. Ted Kord would still be alive at this point anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Then we need an episode where Aqualad discover's his true heritage. Then we need the ocean master episode which likely is where Tula died (aqualad's and Lagoon's episode could work as build up to this episode). Then, considering the level of impact this would have on the team, we would need a follow up episode to show that impact.
    I think that could be done in two episodes, if aqualad discovers his heritage on the same mission that ocean master is unmasked and all that. I could see it being a two parter. I don't see why Lagoon boy should get more development in this idea than he has gotten into the whole of the series proper so even if he were to be introduced at this point he wouldn't matter much. So calling one episode too intoduce the minor time skip and set up ocean masters final defeat. Then one afterwords to show the fallout, probably involving the team bungleing a mission shortly after Tulla's death, ending with Kaldur joining Black Manta. Im not saying we need to see everything that happened, just set up the "twists" so they dont come out of left field so hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Next we need an episode of the team implementing their plan to get Aqualad to join Black Manta's ranks. But considering the light's experience with turn coat children, they will not so quick to accept aqualad, so we will need several more episodes of Aqualad being tested and earning their trust.
    The idea follows the assumption that is still treated as a twist. It would be a better twist because we would be given an actual reason to believe he turned evil. Then there is an eventual flashback episode that covers this stuff after he is revealed to be not evil while covering his and Artemis's entry into the upper ranks. I would be surprised if there isn't an episode with a similar theme already in the pipes.


    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    We also need an episode that would finally drive in the nail for Superboy and Megann's relationship. With build up episodes to help keep everything nicely paced we are looking at about half a season's worth of material; And this is assuming that what we got so far is enough time to show the build up for Superboy and Megan's break, as well as build up the beginning of her relationship with lagoon boy. And this is assuming no one else on the team becomes important to the main plot and i'm not missing anything.
    I think that we don't need to show the end, just show the buildup and the first time she crosses the line, then we start at roughly the same point we are at now. That way they can keep the surprise of her attempts to mind rape Conner, while still showing her to be crossing the line in a deliberate way beyond the moment with Psymon in the first season. That can be spaced across the 4 episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    And so far, every episode of season 2 has been part of the build up towards the light's partner and their ultimate plan... there are no filler episodes that can be out right removed as each episode contributes something; the amount of time we could remove from the current crop of episodes "thanks" to having all those other episodes would amount to nothing more than a few minutes each episode.
    That is assuming that there wont be a single filler episode this season. Also its assuming that the filler sections of each episode would have to remain the same. There have already been half filler episodes, like the one with the all girls team. The girls deserved a full episode to develop the two new members to the team, and if they weren't going to get a full one it would probably be best to save the idea until a better time and reveal the fate of Blue Beetles friend another way.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2012-06-18 at 08:40 PM.
    Thanks to Ceika for my awesome half orc fighter up there.
    If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.

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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    That is assuming that there wont be a single filler episode this season. Also its assuming that the filler sections of each episode would have to remain the same. There have already been half filler episodes, like the one with the all girls team. The girls deserved a full episode to develop the two new members to the team, and if they weren't going to get a full one it would probably be best to save the idea until a better time and reveal the fate of Blue Beetles friend another way.
    Girls team wasn't filler. Team have learnt that the Light is abducting people
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    Default Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Girls team wasn't filler. Team have learnt that the Light is abducting people
    Which could have been told to us another way, and given the Girl Squad an episode to themselves later on with much better focus and less feeling like they were blue beetles back up story.
    Thanks to Ceika for my awesome half orc fighter up there.
    If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.

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