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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Inspired by the "easy exploits", I'd like to collect things in this thread where the rules simply fail to achieve what was (most likely) intended, and thus requires houseruling to make it work.

    Examples:

    - Monks are not proficient with Unarmed Strikes.

    - Ruby Knight Vindicators have to expend a Standard Action to gain an additional Swift Action. (Reason: since the Divine Impetus description says nothing about what kind of Action is required, it defaults to Standard Action, as for any Su Ability that doesn't specify otherwise)

    Bring it on. =)
    Last edited by Firechanter; 2011-09-11 at 03:00 PM.
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Shadow Sun Ninja (ToB) has an ability (Flame of the Shadow Sun) that lets you absorb a cold attack as an immediate action. Doing so grants you the ability to launch a bolt of fire as a swift action on your next turn. Damn shame about how using an immediate action means you don't get a swift action next turn, huh?

    There is no RAW provision for making oils (defined as "potion-like things that work on objects"), despite many examples of such existing in the "Potions and Oils" section of the DMG, since Brew Potion specifies that the spell must target a creature. You might find an Oil of Magic Weapon, but you'll never be able to make one. At least, not in the way you think you are.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Using a ranged weapon to make an attack as a standard action provokes an attack of opportunity.
    Using a ranged weapon to make a full attack action does not.
    My preferred pronouns are they, them, and their.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    *Points at the entire Truenamer thread*

    Also, Ur-Priests don't actually work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Also, Ur-Priests don't actually work.
    *Re-reads ur-priest class.*
    How is this?
    My preferred pronouns are they, them, and their.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Hide behind your tower shield, to gain total cover for you and your equipment. Your tower shield now has total cover.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Also, "dysfunctional" has a y in it.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Also, "dysfunctional" has a y in it.
    Yes, but "disfunctional" does not. You'll find that listed as an acceptable variant spelling in many sources.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Using a ranged weapon to make an attack as a standard action provokes an attack of opportunity.
    Using a ranged weapon to make a full attack action does not.
    I used this in a game once. Good thing it was online or I would have gotten dice or even books thrown at me.
    Thanks to Ceika for the avatar.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Using a ranged weapon to make an attack as a standard action provokes an attack of opportunity.
    Using a ranged weapon to make a full attack action does not.
    How so?
    The SRD actions in combat chart does not differentiate between action types. It just lists "ranged attack" as a means of provoking an AoO. When taking a standart action to attack with a ranged weapon, you are making a ranged attack and thus provoke. When taking an full round action to full attack with a ranged weaopon, you are makin ranged attacks and thus provoking AoOs.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    How so?
    The SRD actions in combat chart does not differentiate between action types.
    Really? The link you gave has separate tables for standard actions, move actions, full round actions and so forth.

    Under "Standard Actions", it says ranged attacks provoke. Under "Full round Actions", it doesn't say that, and the table clearly says that full attack doesn't provoke.
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    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
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    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by ranagrande View Post
    Yes, but "disfunctional" does not. You'll find that listed as an acceptable variant spelling in many sources.
    Nono, Zaq is totally right. Dysfunctional is the better spelling. I'll fix it. ^^

    (I had written "dys-" at first, then thought it looked funny, and changed it.)
    Last edited by Firechanter; 2011-09-11 at 03:00 PM.
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    *fails reading comprehension check*

    Damn, you guys are right
    Yeah, this is stupid.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Taking the "Self-Sufficient" feat is the absolute worst thing you can do if you want your character to be self-sufficient.

    In fact, if your character concept is "A swordsman that is tough and self-sufficient, with godlike endurance", for the love of god, don't play a fighter with toughness, self-sufficient, and endurance.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Yeah, this is stupid.
    No argument there. That's how it found it's way to this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    *Re-reads ur-priest class.*
    How is this?
    Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells.
    Ur-priests cast divine spells.

    Obviously, this is meant only for preexisting abilities, but strict reading of RAW* gives no such exception.

    It's sort of like the Schrödinger's Dragon Disciple case.

    (*Provided one accepts Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane's "if you no longer meet the requirements of a PrC you lose access to its class abilities" rule extends to other Prestige Classes.)
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    (*Provided one accepts Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane's "if you no longer meet the requirements of a PrC you lose access to its class abilities" rule extends to other Prestige Classes.)
    But it's generally accepted that those only apply to the books in question.

    There's the old "Heal by Drowning" trick, that needs no further explanation.

    Empty flasks weigh more than full flasks of Alchemists's Fire, Holy Water, etc.

    The good-only Healer class has an [evil] spell (Deathwatch) on their list. I can't check right now, but I think they can't even cast it.

    Undead are completely fine on the Positive Energy Plane, since they are technically immune to the negative effects of the plane. They're probably better off than living things even.
    Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2011-09-11 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    But it's generally accepted that those only apply to the books in question.
    Actually, that rule is generally disregarded entirely. If you were to apply it, there is no basis to apply it selectively, because it doesn't specify "the prestige classes in this book."

    And CArc has other rules that are applied to general D&D, such as sneak attack/crits on weapon-like spells. Following that logic would mean that you could only do that with the spells in CArc.

    Anyway, I think the rule is silly (just like I think Ur-Priest self-disqualifying is silly) - I merely mentioned it because this is a thread for silly rules.


    EDIT: Might as well throw in Dragon Disciple while we're on the subject, for the same reason.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2011-09-11 at 03:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Ur-priests cast divine spells.
    It's sort of like the Schrödinger's Dragon Disciple case.
    First I was like this: oÔ
    And then I LOLed! ^_^

    Thanks for that, I'm still laughing. =)

    The good-only Healer class has an [evil] spell (Deathwatch) on their list. I can't check right now, but I think they can't even cast it.
    Yeah. I just noticed the other day that Deathwatch is described as "Evil", though I cannot imagine why.
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Yeah, I'd say the real problem is that Deathwatch is an Evil spell; it's only evil because of the fluff. There's nothing to prevent Healers from using it though.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    (*Provided one accepts Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane's "if you no longer meet the requirements of a PrC you lose access to its class abilities" rule extends to other Prestige Classes.)
    The complete warrior rule is dysfunctional, every GM have to make something new. I personally say that the character must satisfy naked and without spells active to take the first level. Once you got your first level it is ok. If you satisfy only in certain situations like Two-weapon fighting and the Ranger you qualify.

    Similarly the PrC Survivor (Savage Species) has this prerequisite:
    You highest Base Saving Throw must be lower than your level.
    Too bad once you take your first level you probably fail that requisite losing the first level power....

    E.g.
    1 level Commoner saving throws 0 0 0
    2 level Survivor saving throws 2 2 2
    OPS!
    Last edited by etrpgb; 2011-09-11 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    The good-only Healer class has an [evil] spell (Deathwatch) on their list. I can't check right now, but I think they can't even cast it.
    It's on Slayer of Domiel's list too IIRC - an Exalted PrC from BoED, i.e. "gooder than good."
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Actually, that rule is generally disregarded entirely. If you were to apply it, there is no basis to apply it selectively, because it doesn't specify "the prestige classes in this book."
    Actually, Primary Source applies here. The DMG is primary source for how prestige classes work. Unless another book specifically over-rules that, like how Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium specifically are the definitive new rules for the stuff in there, then any new rules about Prestige Classes can only apply to the book those rules came from- everything else refers either to itself or to the DMG if no specific rules are given.

    Edit: As distinct from the Weapon-like spells rules, which are generally applied because the core books don't tell you how to deal with those.
    Last edited by tyckspoon; 2011-09-11 at 04:10 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Actually, Primary Source applies here. The DMG is primary source for how prestige classes work. Unless another book specifically over-rules that, like how Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium specifically are the definitive new rules for the stuff in there, then any new rules about Prestige Classes can only apply to the book those rules came from- everything else refers either to itself or to the DMG if no specific rules are given.

    Edit: As distinct from the Weapon-like spells rules, which are generally applied because the core books don't tell you how to deal with those.
    The core book also doesn't mention what happens when you lose the requirements for a PrC, so it could be argued that there is nothing in core for CA and CW to overrule.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Disfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Actually, Primary Source applies here. The DMG is primary source for how prestige classes work. Unless another book specifically over-rules that, like how Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium are the definitive rules for the stuff in there, then any new rules about Prestige Classes can only apply to the book those rules came from- everything else refers either to itself or to the DMG if no specific rules are given.
    1) Primary Source only applies if that source actually has a rule that covers this situation. The DMG says nothing about what happens if you fail to meet the prereqs for a PrC after entering it, therefore defaulting to it does nothing.
    (Ninja'd by Boci.)

    2) The Primary Source rule comes second to Specific trumps General in the rules hierarchy. For instance, both the DMG and PHB both say there are only 11 base classes in D&D, yet it's obvious that this is wrong due to splat books adding more; yet putting Primary Source in first place would eliminate every other base class in 3.5.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2011-09-11 at 04:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Swordsage's AC bonus.

    Unarmed Swordsages.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    The fact people start arguing this way is proof of dysfunction.

    Also the big one.... Tiers! How is possible that after few years of 3.0 they could not make a collection of Tiers 3 base classes?!?
    Last edited by etrpgb; 2011-09-11 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    Taking the "Self-Sufficient" feat is the absolute worst thing you can do if you want your character to be self-sufficient.

    In fact, if your character concept is "A swordsman that is tough and self-sufficient, with godlike endurance", for the love of god, don't play a fighter with toughness, self-sufficient, and endurance.
    If we're going about misleading names, how about Amulet of Mighty Fists and Necklace of Natural Attacks? Guess which one is better for someone punching people in the face, and which one benefits the million-tentacled elder horror more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    It can be extended to most feats.
    Feats are really badly written, it seems authors are scared to write decent feats and yet have no problems writing broken spells. Most core feats are almost useless (Tier 6 if you prefer).

    Weapon Specialization +2 damage VS Fireball 1d6 damage per level....ok, there is a cap. But the point should be clear.

    Endurance ... you get 3 HP. WHAT? My character will have 7 feats in all his career and I should use one for 3 HP?!? No, seriously... do they play tested anything?
    If it were something like 1 HP per level (min 3) my Wizard might think about it...

    Of course this is the real problem of the Fighter class. Bad feats, bad class that lives of feats.
    Last edited by etrpgb; 2011-09-11 at 04:47 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    You cannot be a Dragon Disciple if you are a dragon.

    Gain dragon as a type through Dragon Disciple.

    You no longer qualify as a Dragon Disciple.
    Duty is heavier than death.

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