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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jjeinn-tae View Post
    P1: My kungfu is better than yours. Eeeyai!
    P2: Use the force, Ruke (Fly on P1).
    P1: Cyclone kicky-thing.
    DM: You do 100 damage to the hill giant, he tries to grapple.
    P1: AoO Stunning Fist!
    DM: The Giant is stunned, but the knight on the Pegasus bullrushes you over the cliff and the wizard casts anti-magic field.
    P1: Slowfall near cliff.
    DM: WHO DESIGNED THIS CLASS AND WHY DOES IT HAVE AN ANSWER TO EVERYTHING?

    ...I honestly have no idea what could of granted them that opinion... But my account is definitely incorrect because the wizard casted fly; Wizards were solely for blasting...

    ...Maybe its the high base-damage weapon with extra attacks per round? They assumed damage would be the be-all-end-all.
    That's what you get when you jump to conclusions.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Imp

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by etrpgb View Post
    Endurance ... you get 3 HP. WHAT? My character will have 7 feats in all his career and I should use one for 3 HP?!? No, seriously... do they play tested anything?
    If it were something like 1 HP per level (min 3) my Wizard might think about it...

    Of course this is the real problem of the Fighter class. Bad feats, bad class that lives of feats.
    Not Endurance, but Toughness, and the solution you discribe is the Improved Toughness feat from the Cwarrior... (which doesn't require Toughness as a preq., just a +3 Base Fortitude-save)
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    In the (far more balanced but recognizably 3.5) D&D MMORPG, "Toughness" gives 2+level hp, effectively combining Toughness and Improved Toughness. It's one of the most popular feats in the game.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    I'm offended that my stealth pun led to an actual discussion.
    I guess we skipped over it.

  5. - Top - End - #275

    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    In the (far more balanced but recognizably 3.5) D&D MMORPG, "Toughness" gives 2+level hp, effectively combining Toughness and Improved Toughness. It's one of the most popular feats in the game.
    DDO isn't more balanced than D&D.
    It's actually 3 + HD.
    It's the most popular both because of that and because it unlocks the ability to get 20-80 more HP depending on class and race, and because there are so few good feats worth taking so you might as well take the one that lets you take the abundant 300-500+ damage hits to the face and live.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    In the (far more balanced but recognizably 3.5) D&D MMORPG, "Toughness" gives 2+level hp, effectively combining Toughness and Improved Toughness. It's one of the most popular feats in the game.
    Oddly, that's the same "fix" I made to Toughness back in 3.0.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I think that for simplicity in the game it's reasonable to call a year 365 days, a day 24 hours, a week 7 days, and a month 30 days (in case anything is measured in months).
    There are some setting where a week is 10 days. Forgotten Realms is one example. So in Forgotten Realms, crafting takes longer since one week is 10 days. At least according to the crafting rules.
    I underwent "Specialized High Intensity Training" for the English language. My training focused on avoiding abbreviations and acronyms. Not all of them are a good thing.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Which is another point why it's a stupid idea for setting designers to screw around with the length of the week. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a plain old 7 days a week, 12 months a year calendar for any fantasy setting. Simply because it's so ingrained in our own culture. And they, the buggers on Toril etc also weigh stuff in pounds and measure distances in feet and miles (a charming and old-fashioned custom that is almost forgotten in most countries on Earth).

    FWIW, we've played in the FR for years but none of us ever knew that there are 10 days in a week. oO Just another reason to skip stuff like that.
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
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    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Arbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    And they, the buggers on Toril etc also weigh stuff in pounds and measure distances in feet and miles (a charming and old-fashioned custom that is almost forgotten in most countries on Earth).
    I'll admit to having been a bit weirded-out by the fact that RuneQuest uses the metric system. It seemed a bit out of place in a mostly-Bronze-Age-ish world, y'know?
    Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Kansaschaser View Post
    There are some setting where a week is 10 days. Forgotten Realms is one example. So in Forgotten Realms, crafting takes longer since one week is 10 days. At least according to the crafting rules.
    Oh, yeah, for added bizarreness, when figuring crafting per day, everyone else drops to Forgotten Realms rates of progress, while Forgotten Realms residents are unaffected.

    And for bonus WTF, Pathfinder fixed this issue - crafting progress per day is figured by dividing progress per week by the number of days in a week - but didn't fix the original problem with base crafting time being variable depending on how many days you define a "week" to be.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Eberron's calendar has 12 months, but how they ended up with the system I have no idea.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Eberron's calendar has 12 months, but how they ended up with the system I have no idea.
    Isn't it based on the fact that everything in Eberron is connected to it's twelve (visible) moons?
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Eberron's calendar has 12 months, but how they ended up with the system I have no idea.
    One month was destroyed in a cataclysm.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Speaking of crafting, can't you make an infinite number of quarterstaves in one crafting attempt, due to a divide by 0 bug?
    Quote Originally Posted by Popertop View Post
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    Speaking of crafting, can't you make an infinite number of quarterstaves in one crafting attempt, due to a divide by 0 bug?
    By RAW I think yes
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  16. - Top - End - #286
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    One month was destroyed in a cataclysm.
    The clockforged are attempting to recreate it under the aegis of a religion called "The Living Month". You can read all about it in The Horology of Eberron.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popertop View Post
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  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Flickerdart's Avatar

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    Speaking of crafting, can't you make an infinite number of quarterstaves in one crafting attempt, due to a divide by 0 bug?
    No. You can only accelerate crafting by a factor of 3, according to the entry, so the minimum amount of time to craft anything is 8 hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    One month was destroyed in a cataclysm.
    You're thinking of Dragonlance.
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    No. You can only accelerate crafting by a factor of 3, according to the entry, so the minimum amount of time to craft anything is 8 hours.
    Why would you need to craft the Quarterstaff or Club? They are zero gold (also known as free).

    You spend your 8 hours making a Quarterstaff and I'll just go shopping and pick up a couple thousand of them for free. Not only that, when you increase the size of the weapon you double the cost. So colossal quarterstaffs are still FREE! Go pick up a couple hundred FREE quarterstaffs and build yourself a house much cheaper than a normal house.
    I underwent "Specialized High Intensity Training" for the English language. My training focused on avoiding abbreviations and acronyms. Not all of them are a good thing.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Kansaschaser View Post
    Why would you need to craft the Quarterstaff or Club? They are zero gold (also known as free).

    You spend your 8 hours making a Quarterstaff and I'll just go shopping and pick up a couple thousand of them for free. Not only that, when you increase the size of the weapon you double the cost. So colossal quarterstaffs are still FREE! Go pick up a couple hundred FREE quarterstaffs and build yourself a house much cheaper than a normal house.
    Because the purported exploit would allow instantaneous generation of quarterstaves and clubs. However, it doesn't work, for the reasons I outlined. Nowhere did I suggest that crafting quarterstaves is a thing one should do.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Did he remember to put cross class ranks into knowldege (local)? If not he doesn't know what race HE IS, or anything about this mysterious thing he himself is. If he DID max out his cross class ranks then we're back to a 40% chance that he STILL doesn't know anything whatsoever about his own race, including even the name.

    And remember, there are no retries till you level. There's a fair chance that despite having wasted 4 of his skill points on knowldege local and 4 more on knowledge nature will NEVER figure out what race he is or that farm animal.

    The rules being based on HD and 1 HD putting it out of common knowledge is utterly and totally stupid. Basically, the people writing these rules didn't read these rules, no PC race, without a skill which is cross class for most classes, can identify other members of their own race.

    Maybe this helps explain all the crossbreeds that are wandering arround?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    ... instantaneous generation of quarterstaves ...
    That would be awesome.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    No. You can only accelerate crafting by a factor of 3, according to the entry, so the minimum amount of time to craft anything is 8 hours.
    What does accelerated crafting have to do with it? The idea is that crafting time is determined by monetary value produced, so the normal crafting time of a 0-value quarterstaff is 0 time.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    What does accelerated crafting have to do with it? The idea is that crafting time is determined by monetary value produced, so the normal crafting time of a 0-value quarterstaff is 0 time.
    Except it isn't. Please to be reading the rules. You can make progress by week and by day. Then the rules allow you to finish 2x or 3x as fast if your progress exceeds the minimal price. But it still takes at least 8 hours to be allowed to make a Craft check for your staff. It's a DC0, so you'll always make it, but you don't get to even try until you've done the work.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  24. - Top - End - #294
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Except it isn't. Please to be reading the rules. You can make progress by week and by day. Then the rules allow you to finish 2x or 3x as fast if your progress exceeds the minimal price. But it still takes at least 8 hours to be allowed to make a Craft check for your staff. It's a DC0, so you'll always make it, but you don't get to even try until you've done the work.
    the next line, mind, is "Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner."

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    the next line, mind, is "Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner."
    Well.

    I'm going to go over there now, and weep.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    You know, unless they attack you with, like, a sword or something. How's your AC?
    Honestly, I've never seen that problem in action. Theory-crafting aside, with 2 of its 3 important attributes going to AC from the start, constant mage armor 1K away (there are monks who invest in Int or Str/don't buy a pearl of power 1 for their wizards? Is that like a druid who doesn't take natural spell?), they tended to fall into the "quickened true strike against your touch AC fails miserably" category, even without using those classes to get the third attribute to AC.

    Now, hitting tends to rely on buffs, and damage tends to rely on convincing the DM to read every ambiguous wording in favor of the monk class; but I've never seen someone play a monk for more than 2 levels without figuring out how to make them essentially immune to anything that offers a save/AC.
    If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by theMycon View Post
    Honestly, I've never seen that problem in action. Theory-crafting aside, with 2 of its 3 important attributes going to AC from the start, constant mage armor 1K away (there are monks who invest in Int or Str/don't buy a pearl of power 1 for their wizards? Is that like a druid who doesn't take natural spell?), they tended to fall into the "quickened true strike against your touch AC fails miserably" category, even without using those classes to get the third attribute to AC.

    Now, hitting tends to rely on buffs, and damage tends to rely on convincing the DM to read every ambiguous wording in favor of the monk class; but I've never seen someone play a monk for more than 2 levels without figuring out how to make them essentially immune to anything that offers a save/AC.
    While Mage Armor offers protection against incorporeal touch attacks, it does jack squat against regular touch attacks, including those from most spells.

    And really, trying to get a Touch AC of 31 (the minimum you'll need to have a 50/50 chance of being missed by a medium-sized 0 BAB caster using True Strike with a Dex Mod of zero.) on a nonspellcaster is not exactly a trivial task.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Kansaschaser View Post
    There are some setting where a week is 10 days. Forgotten Realms is one example. So in Forgotten Realms, crafting takes longer since one week is 10 days. At least according to the crafting rules.
    Nah, FRCS specifically says that a week is still seven days for game mechanics.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Not necessarily a dysfunctional rule but two obvious errors.

    Favored Souls do not have Knowledge: Religion as a class skill. How are they supposed to know anything about the deity that gives them their power?

    Dragon Shamans do not have Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill. How are they supposed to know anything about the dragons that give them their power?

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by gorfnab View Post
    Not necessarily a dysfunctional rule but two obvious errors.

    Favored Souls do not have Knowledge: Religion as a class skill. How are they supposed to know anything about the deity that gives them their power?

    Dragon Shamans do not have Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill. How are they supposed to know anything about the dragons that give them their power?
    Scouts do not have Disable Device. They added it in the errata, but I like to pretend the scout errata doesn't exist.

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