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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by gorfnab View Post
    Not necessarily a dysfunctional rule but two obvious errors.

    Favored Souls do not have Knowledge: Religion as a class skill. How are they supposed to know anything about the deity that gives them their power?

    Dragon Shamans do not have Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill. How are they supposed to know anything about the dragons that give them their power?
    The latter has been fixed in the PHB II errata. Favored Souls are still out of luck though.
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  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Favored Soul is like the Wizzard, Rincewind. They've 'powers', but don't know where it comes from.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by 2xMachina View Post
    Favored Soul is like the Wizzard, Rincewind. They've 'powers', but don't know where it comes from.
    Maybe working out which God you worship is part of their deal.

    1. Are you strongly aligned to one side of the alignment (ie. definitably beyond Neutral) table?
    - If yes, disregard those Gods on the other half.

    2. You have suddenly become more skilled with a particular weapon, do more than one available God have this as a favoured weapon?
    - If no, go to step 6.
    - If yes, go to step 3.

    3. Are any of these Gods racial deities for a race of which you are not a member?
    - If yes, disregard them.

    4. Is there now only one God remaining who matches all criteria?
    - If yes, go to step 6.
    - If no, go to step 5.

    5. Praise all possible Gods equally until a Cleric of your actual patron deity slaps you and tells you who it is in an overly patronising manner. If none ever does, then devote your life to your pseudo-pantheon instead.

    6. Congratulations!! You hve just found your patron deity!! Worship them with all the zeal and sincerity you can muster!!
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2011-09-17 at 06:35 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #304

    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Monks are one of the squishiest classes in the game. They're only not at the bottom because Rogues exist, but Rogues do far more damage. A Fighter has better AC, and if built right touch AC is better as well. Their saves are also average at best, which means they can again be beaten out by a Fighter of all things, who still is not very good.

    This is because Monks have huge markups on all of their gear.

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by 2xMachina View Post
    Favored Soul is like the Wizzard, Rincewind. They've 'powers', but don't know where it comes from.
    At least the Favored Soul has more than one spell known. ;)

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    And really, trying to get a Touch AC of 31 (the minimum you'll need to have a 50/50 chance of being missed by a medium-sized 0 BAB caster using True Strike with a Dex Mod of zero.) on a nonspellcaster is not exactly a trivial task.
    Worse yet- by the time a quickened true strike is a viable use of a 5th level spell-slot for a standard enemy, they're level 11-13 (+5/6BaB & +3-5 Dex, for an attack bonus of 8-11) meaning I'd need a 39-42 touch AC, by level 11, to show any form of backup for my claim.

    Not trivial, but...
    By that point, monks usually have all 3 attributes they use to AC, monk bonus, deflection bonus, and at least one of the dodge/luck/competency contributing to their touch AC. To be non-optimal, but not purposefully screwing self over, call it 10+6+4+3+3+2+1 is only 29 touch. I yield that it is far shy of what is necessary; but you have to admit that's fairly solid for "no buff spells, no defensive focus, just the obvious core equipment."

    Monk saves being "average", though; I have to wonder how. They come with all good saves, use only the attributes which increase saves, and have access to the cloak of resistance same as everyone else.
    If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.

  7. - Top - End - #307

    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by theMycon View Post
    Worse yet- by the time a quickened true strike is a viable use of a 5th level spell-slot for a standard enemy, they're level 11-13 (+5/6BaB & +3-5 Dex, for an attack bonus of 8-11) meaning I'd need a 39-42 touch AC, by level 11, to show any form of backup for my claim.

    Not trivial, but...
    By that point, monks usually have all 3 attributes they use to AC, monk bonus, deflection bonus, and at least one of the dodge/luck/competency contributing to their touch AC. To be non-optimal, but not purposefully screwing self over, call it 10+6+4+3+3+2+1 is only 29 touch. I yield that it is far shy of what is necessary; but you have to admit that's fairly solid for "no buff spells, no defensive focus, just the obvious core equipment."

    Monk saves being "average", though; I have to wonder how. They come with all good saves, use only the attributes which increase saves, and have access to the cloak of resistance same as everyone else.
    Monks have the "good" base progression, but almost nothing to build off of it. No primary stats associated with saves, no ability to buff to raise saves. That leaves them with just their own basic saves and a cloak, and being the most equipment dependent class in the entire game it is likely the cloak will be slacking (along with the rest of their gear). So average at best.

    Good saves would be something like a DMM Persist Cleric, or a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny build.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post
    Monks have the "good" base progression, but almost nothing to build off of it. No primary stats associated with saves, no ability to buff to raise saves. That leaves them with just their own basic saves and a cloak, and being the most equipment dependent class in the entire game it is likely the cloak will be slacking (along with the rest of their gear). So average at best.

    Good saves would be something like a DMM Persist Cleric, or a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny build.
    Wis isn't a primary stat for Monks?
    Monks don't need Dex for AC, Evasion and skills?
    Monks don't need Con just as much as every other class that isn't DFA or Meldshaper?

    Monks may suck, but saves are one thing they can do.
    Last edited by Devmaar; 2011-09-17 at 11:23 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Devmaar View Post
    Wis isn't a primary stat for Monks?
    Monks don't need Dex for AC, Evasion and skills?
    Monks don't need Con just as much as every other class that isn't DFA or Meldshaper?

    Monks may suck, but saves are one thing they can do.
    With Monk, EVERY stat is a primary stat. Ergo, all stats are equally important, so none of the stats are "primary" (ie. more important than the rest).
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    What.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    5. Praise all possible Gods equally ...

    6. Congratulations!! You hve just found your patron deity!! Worship them with all the zeal and sincerity you can muster!!
    But what if your patron deity turns out to be the Lady of Pain? Your soul ain't favored THAT much!

    EDIT: Ah, c'mon, folks, neither Cha nor Int is primary for a monk, and they do have pretty good saves (plus Improved Evasion to take advantage of it and Still Mind to boost Will). We don't need a Monkday discussion to show that they have significant weaknesses, but there's no purpose in denying that they have worthwhile saves.

    RE-EDIT: I love the way this thread stumbles around from topic to topic.
    Last edited by Dimers; 2011-09-17 at 11:37 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksheep View Post
    With Monk, EVERY stat is a primary stat.
    Except for charisma.

    Okay, FIVE stats are primary stats.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksheep View Post
    With Monk, EVERY stat is a primary stat. Ergo, all stats are equally important, so none of the stats are "primary" (ie. more important than the rest).
    Monks need Charisma?

    Edit: Swordsages
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2011-09-17 at 11:33 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    Except for charisma.

    Okay, FIVE stats are primary stats.
    But what if you wanted to use partially charged wands?
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.


  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    Except for charisma.

    Okay, FIVE stats are primary stats.
    To an extent, they can get by without too much Int...
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    I just remembered another fun rule oversight (more of a quirk than a dysfunctional rule, but still humorous):

    1) Fighty McFighterson straps on his full plate and goes out to slay evil.
    2) Wizzo McEvilwizardington casts Sleep on poor Fighty, who fails his save and falls asleep.
    3) Wizzo McGoodwizardington kills Wizzo McEvilwizardington (since we all know that it takes a Wizard to beat a Wizard) before he can finish off Fighty.
    4) Fighty wakes up a round or two later and goes about the rest of his adventuring day no worse for the wear.
    5) Tomorrow, Fighty is fatigued, thanks to the rule that says that "A character without Endurance who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day."
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    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
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  16. - Top - End - #316

    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Devmaar View Post
    Wis isn't a primary stat for Monks?
    Monks don't need Dex for AC, Evasion and skills?
    Monks don't need Con just as much as every other class that isn't DFA or Meldshaper?

    Monks may suck, but saves are one thing they can do.
    No, because they are a melee character, which means that their primary stat is the one that affects to hit and damage, namely Strength. Part of the reason why Monks are such a terrible class is that in addition to Strength, and the obvious Constitution they also need two other stats. That means that all their stats turn out very low, leading to them being unable to do anything.

    If for some reason you actually made one with Wis as a primary stat, you'd have a character that cannot contribute at all... and that still fails saves fairly often.

    Not to mention that again, a Fighter of all things has more AC, and more touch AC if built right. Not that it matters, as both of them are solidly in 95+% to be hit territory, but it does mean you are expending more effort and resources for lesser results. And Evasion? Reflex saves are the one save you can safely ignore, as there are very few Reflex save based effects that can do anything significant even on a failed save, and fewer still that can do so if you have Freedom of Movement active.

    See, that's the thing about stat replacement stuff. If it is stat replacement stuff (Wis to AC instead of armor/shield) and not stat addition stuff (Wis to AC, in addition to armor/shield) you're getting the worse end of the deal. The only reason Druids get away with it is because Wis is their primary stat, and becoming an animal helps a bit.

  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Maybe working out which God you worship is part of their deal.

    1. Are you strongly aligned to one side of the alignment (ie. definitably beyond Neutral) table?
    - If yes, disregard those Gods on the other half.

    2. You have suddenly become more skilled with a particular weapon, do more than one available God have this as a favoured weapon?
    - If no, go to step 6.
    - If yes, go to step 3.

    3. Are any of these Gods racial deities for a race of which you are not a member?
    - If yes, disregard them.

    4. Is there now only one God remaining who matches all criteria?
    - If yes, go to step 6.
    - If no, go to step 5.

    5. Praise all possible Gods equally until a Cleric of your actual patron deity slaps you and tells you who it is in an overly patronising manner. If none ever does, then devote your life to your pseudo-pantheon instead.

    6. Congratulations!! You hve just found your patron deity!! Worship them with all the zeal and sincerity you can muster!!

    Problem: Know: Religion governs the info that is used for this.



    A new one: Mind Over Body heals abiliity damage equal to 1 + your con score.


    Take the feat, now it's impossible to recover from con damage naturally.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2011-09-19 at 12:28 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Er... because basic motor functions don't translate that well to other contexts. Here's proof.
    Just thought I'd mention that I got 42.8 metres on this; I don't envy my QWOP guy, though, he spent most of it doing the splits and undulating his way forward.
    Last edited by Golden Ladybug; 2011-09-19 at 05:37 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    I barely managed five meters. That was when he went to his knees and kinda inches his way forward using mainly his toes, before faceplanting.
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  20. - Top - End - #320
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Ladybug View Post
    Just thought I'd mention that I got 42.8 metres on this; I don't envy my QWOP guy, though, he spent most of it doing the splits and undulating his way forward.
    Well, think about this - it generally takes a baby, what, a year to learn to walk, give or take a few months? Call it 1d6+8 months, whatever (when it comes to kids, I'm less Dr. Spock, more Robert Heinlein). If you practiced that game for around a year, I'm sure you'd be able to stroll along nicely. Thus... under a certain light, it's actually a decent approximation of the difficulties inherent in learning to walk, in the real world - basic motor functions aren't all that basic, even in the real world.

    Also, that game is the perfect metaphor for this thread, lurching drunkenly about before inevitably falling on it's face, legs splayed painfully.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitarismo View Post
    No, because they are a melee character, which means that their primary stat is the one that affects to hit and damage, namely Strength. Part of the reason why Monks are such a terrible class is that in addition to Strength, and the obvious Constitution they also need two other stats. That means that all their stats turn out very low, leading to them being unable to do anything.

    If for some reason you actually made one with Wis as a primary stat, you'd have a character that cannot contribute at all... and that still fails saves fairly often.
    Just going to point out that in most point buy Monk builds I've seen, Str, Dex, Wis, and Con are generally purchases to equal levels.

    In general, if you're playing a Monk-like character and actually hoping to deal damage, you're playing an Unarmed Swordsage, who loses some of the MAD but can normally actually hit.

    If you insist on playing a Monk, its probably because you see something appealing in his class abilities, for which Wis is generally the relevant Stat. I've lost more monsters to Quivering Palm than one might think because somebody pumped their Wis and picked up. . . Intuitive Strike, was it?
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  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post

    If you insist on playing a Monk, its probably because you see something appealing in his class abilities, for which Wis is generally the relevant Stat. I've lost more monsters to Quivering Palm than one might think because somebody pumped their Wis and picked up. . . Intuitive Strike, was it?
    Sounds about right. In a lower-op environment, give a Monk full BAB and forcibly point him at Intuitive Strike and a majority of players who want a Monk will be reasonably mollified.
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  23. - Top - End - #323

    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Just going to point out that in most point buy Monk builds I've seen, Str, Dex, Wis, and Con are generally purchases to equal levels.

    In general, if you're playing a Monk-like character and actually hoping to deal damage, you're playing an Unarmed Swordsage, who loses some of the MAD but can normally actually hit.

    If you insist on playing a Monk, its probably because you see something appealing in his class abilities, for which Wis is generally the relevant Stat. I've lost more monsters to Quivering Palm than one might think because somebody pumped their Wis and picked up. . . Intuitive Strike, was it?
    And that's the problem with them, because they can't do anything well. Their stuns will get saved out on on a 2, if their attacks connect in the first place and they are liable to be the squishiest party member, especially if they take their AC too seriously, think they won't be hit, and sacrifice Con.

    Intuitive Strike suffers from exactly the same problem as Weapon Finesse does. Great, you've spent resources, and now you might hit things sometimes. It only adds to hit, and not do damage, so it doesn't much matter if your attacks are connecting or not.

    Quivering Palm is 1/day, low DC. If you want that, Unarmed Swordsages probably have a maneuver usable a whole lot more often and likely with a better DC, and of course a caster has much more than one spell, and that spell likely multi targets on top of that.

    Even just taking MM1 stuff as written, full BAB isn't enough to save the Monk, and hitting but doing no damage worth recording isn't either. Even my houserules, which are generally good at addressing things such as the finesse problem could only do a limited amount to help. Some things just can't be saved. My solution is to forcibly point them at unarmed Swordsages or Clerics.

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Sounds about right. In a lower-op environment, give a Monk full BAB and forcibly point him at Intuitive Strike and a majority of players who want a Monk will be reasonably mollified.
    Well, yeah. But in a high-op environment its irrelevant because all core melee has been replaced by ToB.

    Honestly, that's a good thing. Just so everyone understands where I'm coming from with that.

    Back on topic, has anyone pointed out Toughness is generally taken by characters that aren't actually tough and is generally less desirable the more tough characters are (ie, higher in level).
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  25. - Top - End - #325

    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Well, yeah. But in a high-op environment its irrelevant because all core melee has been replaced by ToB.

    Honestly, that's a good thing. Just so everyone understands where I'm coming from with that.

    Back on topic, has anyone pointed out Toughness is generally taken by characters that aren't actually tough and is generally less desirable the more tough characters are (ie, higher in level).
    Not quite accurate there. Yes, they were replaced but that isn't the problem.

    Has anyone mentioned the whole "Anything better than none means I'm ready for action?" thing yet? And trying to change that leads to even worse problems.

  26. - Top - End - #326
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Well, we all know the old bromide,

    "Anyone with enough Wisdom to function as a Monk has enough Wisdom to know to be something else."
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    In Pathfinder, don't bother trying to find the Prying Eyes spell alphabetically.

    At least it is in the P's.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    Well, we all know the old bromide,

    "Anyone with enough Wisdom to function as a Monk has enough Wisdom to know to be something else."
    It makes a great two-level dip... in Gestalt... and I actually dropped two levels into it for a Level 60 build of absurdity for An Actual Game (and yes, I got in).
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2011-09-19 at 09:28 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    It makes a great two-level dip... in Gestalt... and I actually dropped two levels into it for a Level 60 build of absurdity for An Actual Game (and yes, I got in).
    I would just like to point out that to anyone who missed it that you have a Codex of the Infinite Planes in there, and that's one of my favorite artifacts ever.

    Ten points to Gryffindor.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Devmaar View Post
    Wis isn't a primary stat for Monks?
    Monks don't need Dex for AC, Evasion and skills?
    Monks don't need Con just as much as every other class that isn't DFA or Meldshaper?

    Monks may suck, but saves are one thing they can do.
    Monks are good at saves, I agree there.

    Most monks don't need Wis though, class description be damned. Stunning Fist is terrible, and mathematically once you suck at AC you're better off trading every single point for something else and finding other ways to stay alive (like miss chance or tons of HP). Dex isn't that important for a vanilla monk either, at least not any more important than it is for anyone else. Really if you're playing a Core-only monk your best bet is to stat like a barbarian.
    Last edited by stainboy; 2011-09-20 at 12:37 AM.

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