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  1. - Top - End - #871
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I hope they scrap the Tome of Magic, rewrite it, and make it work. The concept and flavour were fine, but the mechanics were rubbish.
    Binder is pretty solid though and Shadow magic can be useful, though you need to specialize a lot (counterspellers and theurges are the best option IIRC) truenamer OTOH...
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  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    I feel like this entire thread could just be summed up in the fact that an entire category of Truenamer abilities were printed without DCs to use, in a class that is all about it's DCs.

  3. - Top - End - #873
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Binder is pretty solid though and Shadow magic can be useful, though you need to specialize a lot (counterspellers and theurges are the best option IIRC) truenamer OTOH...
    Speak for yourself. I would love to see Truenamer fixed, even if the result is a still-suboptimal Tier 5. Shadow magic does nothing for me. And if they reprinted TOM I would really, really badly want them to resort the Binder vestiges, putting them in level order rather than alphabetical, so you can find all the vestiges you're allowed to bind in one place (and then do Magic of Incarnum with the soulmelds segregated by class).

  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Roguenewb View Post
    I feel like this entire thread could just be summed up in the fact that an entire category of Truenamer abilities were printed without DCs to use, in a class that is all about it's DCs.
    Yes, the Truename of the Truenamer class is Dysfunctional.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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  5. - Top - End - #875
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Binder is pretty solid though and Shadow magic can be useful, though you need to specialize a lot (counterspellers and theurges are the best option IIRC) truenamer OTOH...
    To be honest I've played a Truenamer (level 16 one-shot) with a medium/low-op group (on a day when the low-op people were there) and I was one of the best in the party.
    That said, the class especially and the entire book in general left me fairly disappointed.
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  6. - Top - End - #876
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous 30-ish pages of posts, but RAW there is no way to recover your psicrystal if it is destroyed.
    Hey, Druid. Stop complaining that the ToB is imba.

  7. - Top - End - #877
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    It's possible that was intentional, for added drama. It is a part of your mind after all.

  8. - Top - End - #878
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by CalistonTB View Post
    Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous 30-ish pages of posts, but RAW there is no way to recover your psicrystal if it is destroyed.
    Well, you could always Chaos Shuffle your Psicrystal feat away and back again.

    Some things, you can't get with RAW. For everything else, there's Mastercheese Chaos Shuffle.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-08-22 at 10:26 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #879
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by CalistonTB View Post
    Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous 30-ish pages of posts, but RAW there is no way to recover your psicrystal if it is destroyed.
    good catch. no one has mentioned it.

    if I were DMing, I'd let you cast "revive construct" as a 6th, since they already have one for outsider and undead. besides, psionic save game aside, psicrystals are hardly gamebreaking, so killing one off is something of an unneccessary measure
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  10. - Top - End - #880
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Well, you could always Chaos Shuffle your Psicrystal feat away and back again.

    Some things, you can't get with RAW. For everything else, there's Mastercheese Chaos Shuffle.
    Or even mundane retraining on level-up, right?
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  11. - Top - End - #881
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Or even mundane retraining on level-up, right?
    RAW that works too
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Speak for yourself. I would love to see Truenamer fixed, even if the result is a still-suboptimal Tier 5. Shadow magic does nothing for me. And if they reprinted TOM I would really, really badly want them to resort the Binder vestiges, putting them in level order rather than alphabetical, so you can find all the vestiges you're allowed to bind in one place (and then do Magic of Incarnum with the soulmelds segregated by class).
    I would love to see a Truenamer rework in the printed version; but frankly I doubt it. Why would they spend money and/or time when they can simply send the file to the printers? It would take minutes at most. And I meant that as written Truenamer is disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    To be honest I've played a Truenamer (level 16 one-shot) with a medium/low-op group (on a day when the low-op people were there) and I was one of the best in the party.
    That said, the class especially and the entire book in general left me fairly disappointed.
    I can't talk about my own experience as I've never played a Truenamer and only have to go by Zaqs "Handbook" and other peoples account. I know it can be played by RAW; but from my understanding you have to optimize more than the norm to simply work, sure with an Item Familiar, skill focus (Truenaming) an amulet of the silver tongue +10 and a custom Truenamin Item you can and probably will reach all the DC's; but it is still far more investment to simply use your class features as opposed to a charger who sinks similar resources (2 feats, let's say Power Attack and Leap Attack, less skill ranks (the jump check to activate Leap Attack is reasonable easy, I think about 20) a valorous weapon ("equivalent to the Truenaming Item) and some form of pounce. More ore less same investment; but much more effective at his chosen style.

    That is why I think the Truenamer disappoints.
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  13. - Top - End - #883
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    I would love to see a Truenamer rework in the printed version; but frankly I doubt it. Why would they spend money and/or time when they can simply send the file to the printers? It would take minutes at most. And I meant that as written Truenamer is disappointing.



    I can't talk about my own experience as I've never played a Truenamer and only have to go by Zaqs "Handbook" and other peoples account. I know it can be played by RAW; but from my understanding you have to optimize more than the norm to simply work, sure with an Item Familiar, skill focus (Truenaming) an amulet of the silver tongue +10 and a custom Truenamin Item you can and probably will reach all the DC's; but it is still far more investment to simply use your class features as opposed to a charger who sinks similar resources (2 feats, let's say Power Attack and Leap Attack, less skill ranks (the jump check to activate Leap Attack is reasonable easy, I think about 20) a valorous weapon ("equivalent to the Truenaming Item) and some form of pounce. More ore less same investment; but much more effective at his chosen style.

    That is why I think the Truenamer disappoints.
    Of course. The amount of optimisation needed to get the Truenamer on par with tier five classes is just sad.
    And I think Leap Attack is a DC 10 jump check. Yeah, just checked, it's a 10' jump. So because you're already charging, you'll often have the running start needed to make it a DC 10 jump.
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  14. - Top - End - #884
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    (mentions of leap attack)
    it is actually not a flat DC. you must jump at least 10 feet (if you jump with at least a 20 foot running start, then the DC is equal to the distance traveled (for a 10 foot jump, it's 10 ) but it actually is equal to the horizontal distance traveled

    leap attack, despite its use with the traditional vanilla ubercharger becomes the most fun (in my opinion) when combined with a couple of things:

    monk levels
    drunken master
    boosts to movement speed

    drunken master's stagger ability lets you change directions in a charge. leap attack lets you combine a charge with a jump. jump checks are modified by what your movement speed is (+4 for every 10 feet it is above 30)

    this is the most fun with the 3.0 drunken master from sword and fist since its movement speed goes up the most (plus full BA and less lameness)

    if you charge with say a 60 foot movement speed, you have a range of 120 feet. you can move 20 feet to get a running start, jump with a bonus of at least +12 from movement (and then 8 ranks from leap attack)

    combine this with power attack (of course), imp bull rush, and shock trooper for heedless charge to actually hit, domino rush to turn your enemies into bowling pins, and directional bullrush to completely control the battlefield. with your range, you can have a pretty huge degree of battlefield control as a melee character, and that's pretty awesome.

    it also helps get around a traditional problem for chargers (mobility, difficult terrain, relatively short range, etc)
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  15. - Top - End - #885
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Well, I've noticed recently that while there is a penalty for going to sleep in your armor, there isn't one for just not going to sleep. Ever.

    Unless you are a caster, there appears to be no reason to ever sleep, and even casters spell preparation description says "rest" and not sleep. So them too arguably.

  16. - Top - End - #886
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    Well, I've noticed recently that while there is a penalty for going to sleep in your armor, there isn't one for just not going to sleep. Ever.

    Unless you are a caster, there appears to be no reason to ever sleep, and even casters spell preparation description says "rest" and not sleep. So them too arguably.
    correct indeed.

    similarly, a bigger than medium size carries a penalty to hide, but not to MS.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  17. - Top - End - #887
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    correct indeed.

    similarly, a bigger than medium size carries a penalty to hide, but not to MS.
    Eh, that one I could see, bigger means more of you to hide, but you can still be graceful. For example I have no problems picturing a Large tiger having no issues moving silently, compared to even a small sized humanoid.

    ps. We ended up adopting the forced march rules for staying awake.
    Last edited by TypoNinja; 2012-08-23 at 05:39 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #888
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    similarly, a bigger than medium size carries a penalty to hide, but not to MS.
    Size doesn't affect a lot of checks that it probably should.
    * Survival - Need more food each day.
    * Open Lock - Fat fingers.
    * Ride - Your poor horse.
    * Sleight of Hand - Same deal as Hide, your size makes you more obvious.
    * Balance - Picture a giant standing on a branch.
    * Escape Artist - This one could go either way, there's more of you to tie but it's probably more difficult to wiggle about.

  19. - Top - End - #889
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    * Open Lock - Fat fingers.
    I just got the image of a giant with the telephone wand from the Simpsons.

  20. - Top - End - #890
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Size doesn't affect a lot of checks that it probably should.
    * Survival - Need more food each day.
    Depends entirely on the creature's metabolism.

    * Open Lock - Fat fingers.
    You don't need fingers to use Open Lock.


    * Ride - Your poor horse.
    You can't ride an improperly sized mount.

    * Sleight of Hand - Same deal as Hide, your size makes you more obvious.
    What? Sleight of Hand doesn't let you hide, just determine if you're skillful enough to go quickly through someone's pockets. Your size has nothing to do with that.

    * Balance - Picture a giant standing on a branch.
    Why would a larger creature have a worse sense of balance?

    * Escape Artist - This one could go either way, there's more of you to tie but it's probably more difficult to wiggle about.
    Why is it more difficult to wiggle about for a larger creature, exactly?
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    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
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  21. - Top - End - #891
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Why would a larger creature have a worse sense of balance?
    According to the Balance skill, it has a DC 15 check to walk across something 2-6 inches wide. It doesn't matter if your foot is half an inch wide or 5 feet wide, it's a DC 15 check. Less than 2 inch wide is DC 20, while 7-12 inches is DC 10.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    What? Sleight of Hand doesn't let you hide, just determine if you're skillful enough to go quickly through someone's pockets. Your size has nothing to do with that.
    I have a hard time imagining a giant easily rummaging through a medium sized creature's pockets.

    Giant-sized hands and all
    Last edited by Antonok; 2012-08-23 at 07:44 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #893
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonok View Post
    I have a hard time imagining a giant easily rummaging through a medium sized creature's pockets.

    Giant-sized hands and all
    They could do it using chopsticks.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  24. - Top - End - #894
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    They could do it using chopsticks.
    Circumstance penalty for using inappropriate or inadequate tools. -2 or worse, I'd say. Fingers so big that each one takes up the entire mouth of a pouch? Yeah, I'd say that's a size penalty to a pickpocket attempt.

    Heck, just in terms of reaction time alone, a larger creature is at a disadvantage if magic isn't involved.

  25. - Top - End - #895
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Heck, just in terms of reaction time alone, a larger creature is at a disadvantage if magic isn't involved.
    Which is represented by many Large creatures having crummy Dexterity scores already.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  26. - Top - End - #896
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    On the flip side, I'd figure being Large would probably help sleight of hand checks to palm or conceal items (assuming the item isn't, itself, a large item of course).
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  27. - Top - End - #897
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Or stealing things from a Huge creature, whose belt a little halfling might not even be able to reach.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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  28. - Top - End - #898
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    When giants pickpocket halflings, they don't pick the halfling's pockets, they just pickpocket the entire halfling.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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  29. - Top - End - #899
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Did someone mention Elder Brains having surprisingly decent Disguise checks? Good enough to fool your average commoner, anyway.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Did someone mention Elder Brains having surprisingly decent Disguise checks? Good enough to fool your average commoner, anyway.
    Hey, a little makeup goes a long way, especially if you're a giant brain with tentacles.
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