"Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

[Jack_Simth]

Spell targeting rules.

Mind you, if you're going to be that picky, none of the Summoning spells work, nor does the Scrying line of spells.

[Flickerdart]

Mind you, if you're going to be that picky, none of the Summoning spells work, nor does the Scrying line of spells.

Summoning spells work just fine - the monster is the effect, not the target. Likewise, Scrying is "Effect: magical sensor".

[mattie_p]

Thanks, rockdeworld. Great contribution to the compendium. IMHO, dysfunctional as written. (Also, thanks RAW thread, where this indirectly came up).

[Douglas]

Summoning spells work just fine - the monster is the effect, not the target. Likewise, Scrying is "Effect: magical sensor".

Correct about summoning, but on this level of RAW hairsplitting Scrying does get hit by the line of effect rules.

Scrying and Planar Binding are obviously intended to ignore those rules, but they don't actually state that they do.

[mattie_p]

Correct about summoning, but on this level of RAW hairsplitting Scrying does get hit by the line of effect rules.

Scrying and Planar Binding are obviously intended to ignore those rules, but they don't actually state that they do.

Which is why it belongs in this thread.

[willpell]

Paladin warhorse mounts are listed with a fairly impressive Jump check distance due to their Strength and speed, but being animals they have no skill points to spare for anything but Listen and Spot, so they have no ranks in Jump. Therefore, per the rules of the Jump skill, any time they don't clear the DC of a jump by at least 5, they land prone. The Heavy Warhorse's +12 check result sounds good, but if he tries to jump a 10-foot ditch, no wider than himself, and rolls a 1 or a 2, he doesn't stick the landing. Which, if you decide belatedly to start being realistic about horses, means he now has a broken leg and has to be mercy-killed.

[TuggyNE]

Paladin warhorse mounts are listed with a fairly impressive Jump check distance due to their Strength and speed, but being animals they have no skill points to spare for anything but Listen and Spot, so they have no ranks in Jump. Therefore, per the rules of the Jump skill, any time they don't clear the DC of a jump by at least 5, they land prone. The Heavy Warhorse's +12 check result sounds good, but if he tries to jump a 10-foot ditch, no wider than himself, and rolls a 1 or a 2, he doesn't stick the landing. Which, if you decide belatedly to start being realistic about horses, means he now has a broken leg and has to be mercy-killed.

... I'm not quite seeing the dysfunction? That was actually a thing that happened, for example in fox hunts: a horse doesn't make the jump across a stream, comes down wrong enough, and their legs snap and bam. (Whether that's actually at 10' jumps, of course, I rather doubt, so maybe that's what you mean.)

[Jeff the Green]

... I'm not quite seeing the dysfunction? That was actually a thing that happened, for example in fox hunts: a horse doesn't make the jump across a stream, comes down wrong enough, and their legs snap and bam. (Whether that's actually at 10' jumps, of course, I rather doubt, so maybe that's what you mean.)

Also recall that "The statistics presented here [for the heavy (war)horse] describe large breeds of working horses such as Clydesdales." Clydesdales are draft horses, and ain't that great at jumping.

A horse ridden in fox hunts is going to be something like a thoroughbred or Arabian, and represented by the light (war)horse. Their +15 modifier lets them jump a 10' stream no problem, and a 20' stream taking 10'. And a horse specifically trained for hunting or show-jumping will have its ranks in Jump, rather than the perception skills, and so will have an extra +6.

So, yeah, I don't see a significant dysfunction either.

[willpell]

I just thought that a 10% chance of lethally screwing up a jump of your own body length seemed excessively fumbletastic, and yes the light horse is better but not by an incredible lot, it still has a 20% chance to fail a 20-foot jump if it's "rushed or threatened" and thus has to roll. But as frequently happens, I forgot that Taking 10 existed, so at least this doesn't happen when not "rushed or threatened".

[TuggyNE]

But as frequently happens, I forgot that Taking 10 existed, so at least this doesn't happen when not "rushed or threatened".

Yeah, taking 10 covers a multitude of sins.

(It's still not an excuse for making rules that are basically wrong, but at least it's a handy patch in case you get something slightly off.)

[willpell]

Perhaps I'm nitpicking again, but I was looking at the Telekinetic Maneuver psionic power, and I noticed something. It lets you Bull Rush a target with your mind, and you don't provoke an AoO; the text doesn't say that you don't move into the target's space (magically, from wherever you manifest the power from), but I'll assume they figured that was obvious, and it might be implicit in the basic psionics rules somehow, so I'm not worried about that part. But what does strike me as a goof is that Bull Rush has a provision that any AoOs triggered by the target getting pushed out of a threatened square have a 25% chance of hitting you instead, and nothing in the text of TK Manuever overrides that.

While these mis-hits are obviously meant to represent you being in the target's space and possible to hit by mistake while swinging at them, a Curmudgeon-esque reading of the rules would indicate that when you look up at the guy on the castle wall and use your brain to push him off the edge, the rogue who was about to stab him in the back and now takes advantage of the opening has a 1-in-4 chance of accidentally stabbing you, down on the ground and not even in view of the rogue in question.

EDIT - also, a rules question on that. Assuming (which I'm 100% sure you should but only 99.9% so that you can legally, which is why I'm not putting this on Simple RAW Questions) that you do not teleport into your target's space when TK Bull Rushing, then you probably also can't move with them as you can when physically bull rushing. Can you use the option to move them more than 5 feet, which in a normal bull rush you can't unless you move with them? (The Minotaur Charge maneuver in TOB explicitly allows you to move someone as if you moved with them without having to; since they didn't specify this in TK Maneuver, it seems as though RAW offers no such provision, thus limiting TKBRs to only ever moving the target 5 feet, but this is kinda lame.)

[Stannum (IV)]

Maximize spell. As explained to me by Curmudgeon in a RAW thread some time ago, there are spells (the example I got this answer for was dispel magic) which either give an end result of a boolean value (thus, when maximized, always output true [dispel magic auto-succeeds]), or otherwise do weird things with a strict RAW interpretation of maximize spell being applied. This was, of course, extremely DM-dependant. But it seems amusing enough to put here, especially if one could find another example where this interpretation might be possible.

[Jeff the Green]

Maximize spell. As explained to me by Curmudgeon in a RAW thread some time ago, there are spells (the example I got this answer for was dispel magic) which either give an end result of a boolean value (thus, when maximized, always output true [dispel magic auto-succeeds]), or otherwise do weird things with a strict RAW interpretation of maximize spell being applied. This was, of course, extremely DM-dependant. But it seems amusing enough to put here, especially if one could find another example where this interpretation might be possible.

The thing is, TRUE isn't greater than FALSE. In computers TRUE is represented by 1 and FALSE by 0, but that's for convenience and could be the opposite but by convention.

(For example, running the following code would throw an exception:)

A = TRUE
B = FALSE
C = (A > B)
p C

[The Random NPC]

Maximize spell. As explained to me by Curmudgeon in a RAW thread some time ago, there are spells (the example I got this answer for was dispel magic) which either give an end result of a boolean value (thus, when maximized, always output true [dispel magic auto-succeeds]), or otherwise do weird things with a strict RAW interpretation of maximize spell being applied. This was, of course, extremely DM-dependant. But it seems amusing enough to put here, especially if one could find another example where this interpretation might be possible.

I don't think that's what he meant. I think he meant to say that it turns the dispel check into a Boolean value, but not that it auto succeeds. It would go (20+Caster Level)-(11+Opponent Caster Level)>0 then spell is dispelled, otherwise no spell is dispelled.

[Rogue Shadows]

• Technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing that prevents multiclassing into a class that you already have, as nowhere is it stated that this is not possible.

Mind, I can't think of a class that would actually benefit from such cheese, but it's interesting.

[Amidus Drexel]

• Technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing that prevents multiclassing into a class that you already have, as nowhere is it stated that this is not possible.

Actually, you can't do that.

PHB, page 59
A character can’t gain 1st level in the same class more
than once, even if this would allow him or her to select different
class features,

[noparlpf]

That includes, say, PHB Barbarian 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 1, right?

[nedz]

• Technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing that prevents multiclassing into a class that you already have, as nowhere is it stated that this is not possible.

Mind, I can't think of a class that would actually benefit from such cheese, but it's interesting.

Fighter 2 / Fighter 1 would get one more feat than Fighter 3.

But I think that it's pretty moot since the rules require you to add new classes.

Multiclass Characters

A character may add new classes as he or she progresses in level, thus becoming a multiclass character. The class abilities from a character’s different classes combine to determine a multiclass character’s overall abilities. Multiclassing improves a character’s versatility at the expense of focus.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't think that's what he meant. I think he meant to say that it turns the dispel check into a Boolean value, but not that it auto succeeds. It would go (20+Caster Level)-(11+Opponent Caster Level)>0 then spell is dispelled, otherwise no spell is dispelled.

Ah. Still doesn't work, since the dispel check isn't the effect, it's akin to the opposed check the feats expicitly rule out.

[DaedalusMkV]

Ah. Still doesn't work, since the dispel check isn't the effect, it's akin to the opposed check the feats expicitly rule out.

Maximized Awaken (X) (All mental stats of the Awakened entity are automatically Maximized. Introducing the new tree master race.)
Maximized Reincarnate ("Hey DM, I don't like rolling on tables. Can you arbitrarily choose something wierd for me?")

and, my personal favorite, Maximized Teleport for when you really, really need to get lost.

Maximize still results in a lot of dysfunctions. Just... Not as many as all that.

[toapat]

Maximize spell. As explained to me by Curmudgeon in a RAW thread some time ago, there are spells (the example I got this answer for was dispel magic) which either give an end result of a boolean value (thus, when maximized, always output true [dispel magic auto-succeeds]), or otherwise do weird things with a strict RAW interpretation of maximize spell being applied. This was, of course, extremely DM-dependant. But it seems amusing enough to put here, especially if one could find another example where this interpretation might be possible.

A word of advice: Take everything a rules lawyer says with a grain of salt. Curmudgeon is not a particularly accurate one at that.

For instance, last night i came across the belief that paladins actually get one spell level early.

On the other hand, that same rule makes classes such as Ur-Priest actually unable to prepare spells as quickly as they unlock levels, because it is not explicitly called out by Ur-priest in order to be circumvented. For instance, by normal standards, a 9th level takes a minimum of 17 CL to cast

[shadow_archmagi]

and, my personal favorite, Maximized Teleport for when you really, really need to get lost.

This is beautiful

[nedz]

...
and, my personal favorite, Maximized Teleport for when you really, really need to get lost.

Hilarious
I'm just going to have to give out a scroll of that as loot, mind you even an empowered one would be iffy.

[absolmorph]

Hilarious
I'm just going to have to give out a scroll of that as loot, mind you even an empowered one would be iffy.

What happens when you maximize and empower it?

[Jack_Simth]

What happens when you maximize and empower it?

You get somewhere between a 100 and a 150, with a 99% chance of being off the charts for what happens. But it's a 10th level spell without mitigation, so I don't think many people will try it.

[Douglas]

Maximize Spell being screwy is only due to misinterpreting it. Maximize Spell maximizes things that are a) variable, b) numeric, and c) effects of the spell. All at once.

The dispel check of Dispel Magic is variable and numeric, but it is not an effect of the spell. The effect of Dispel Magic is either dispelling or not dispelling various spells. Said actual effect is not numeric. Neither aspect of Dispel Magic fits all three requirements by itself, so Maximize Spell does nothing.

Maximized Reincarnate also does not work. The roll on the table is variable and numeric, but it is not itself the effect of the spell. It is used to determine the effect, but the actual effect (or that part of it, at least) is which race the subject comes back as. A choice of race is not numeric. Maximize Spell does nothing.

Same with Teleport. The percentile roll is variable and numeric, but the actual effect is "on target", "off target", "similar area", or "mishap". Maximize Spell has no effect.

Maximized Awaken, on the other hand, does work. The ability scores of the tree or animal are variable, numeric, and an effect of the spell - not a number that determines a spell effect, but actually a spell effect themselves - satisfying all three criteria at once. Using this on a tree will result in the tree having all 18s for mental stats, and using it on an animal will produce 18 intelligence and increase charisma by 3.

Now for a real master race, get an epic druid to Intensify it.

[noparlpf]

What happens when you maximize and empower it?

You get 150% more lost than ever before? (Slightly easier way: if you ever need to get quite properly lost, just stick me in the navigator's seat.)

[sreservoir]

Maximized Awaken (X) (All mental stats of the Awakened entity are automatically Maximized. Introducing the new tree master race.)
Maximized Reincarnate ("Hey DM, I don't like rolling on tables. Can you arbitrarily choose something wierd for me?")

and, my personal favorite, Maximized Teleport for when you really, really need to get lost.

Maximize still results in a lot of dysfunctions. Just... Not as many as all that.

actually, afaict even that reading of maximized teleport on anything other than very familiar makes you roll unbounded times, taking 10 damage each time. and, uh, you don't stop.

(otherwise, you just ... take a fixed 10 damage for each mishap.)

[Stannum (IV)]

All right, maximize doesn't work that way, try this:
Someone with casts delayed blast fireball, and swallows the bead.
When the blast goes off, they still get a reflex save for no damage.
The people nearby could still experience the full effects after the spread is only hampered by spreading through a foot or two of throat. For that matter, with noseplugs and closing one's mouth, one could contain the blast within oneself with no ill effect if one successfully saved.
I think evasion was already discussed, but this seems fun enough to bear mentioning. Especially if you could convince the party rogue to swallow anything that might potentially explode.

[Flickerdart]

All right, maximize doesn't work that way, try this:
Someone with casts delayed blast fireball, and swallows the bead.
When the blast goes off, they still get a reflex save for no damage.
The people nearby could still experience the full effects after the spread is only hampered by spreading through a foot or two of throat. For that matter, with noseplugs and closing one's mouth, one could contain the blast within oneself with no ill effect if one successfully saved.
I think evasion was already discussed, but this seems fun enough to bear mentioning. Especially if you could convince the party rogue to swallow anything that might potentially explode.

LoE is established only through an opening 1 foot or larger. A swallowed bead only affects one person.