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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Hilarious accusations, but I'm not going to rise to your bait.

    Thinking that Knowledge Devotion's 1-5 bonus should be evenly spread across 20 levels, requiring the appropriate resource investment equal to the better part of anyone's skill points, is patently absurd, but it's what you seem to be advocating. If you really think this is how the feat should work, then you're vastly overvaluing the bonus, and we have no common ground to meet on. Good day.
    *slow clap*

    Bravo, my good chum. This is perhaps the classiest way of dismissing a faulty line of "reasoning" I have seen.
    If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Critical Miss house rules. [...]
    And, overall, it is a simple but effective way to make casters stronger... Beside think about a battle: 1000 people vs 1000 people. I would mean what every 6 seconds 100 people drop the weapon, fall down, ... assuming only one attack.

    If your DM do this, speak friendly with him. If he does not understand go Archivist or Wizard.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    There are all kinds of idiotic houserules. Critical fumbles are but one type. ^^

    Anyway, 'nuther well-known WotC blunder, listed for the sake of completeness:
    Martial Adepts' Stance Progression.
    A straight Warblade gains access to a 5th-level class feature (level 3 stance) only at level 10. A multiclassed Warblade/X gets it by level 6.

    (At least this is easily fixed by delaying the 2nd stance by one level. For Crusaders it's a lot more difficult, their progression is a lot more fouled up.)
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    There are all kinds of idiotic houserules. Critical fumbles are but one type. ^^

    Anyway, 'nuther well-known WotC blunder, listed for the sake of completeness:
    Martial Adepts' Stance Progression.
    A straight Warblade gains access to a 5th-level class feature (level 3 stance) only at level 10. A multiclassed Warblade/X gets it by level 6.

    (At least this is easily fixed by delaying the 2nd stance by one level. For Crusaders it's a lot more difficult, their progression is a lot more fouled up.)
    On a related note, is there any reason to take Crusader 20? The 'capstone' is pathetic, and the whole messed up stance progression system means no access to 8th-level stances. Which is mind-numbingly stupid, to put it bluntly, since they can't take Immortal Fortitude without multiclassing, despite it being the Crusaders' signature stance.

    I mean, aside from the whole "better than Fighter 20" thingy, of course.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2011-09-12 at 04:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    On a related note, is there any reason to take Crusader 20? The 'capstone' is pathetic, and the whole messed up stance progression system means no access to 8th-level stances.
    Well, _technically_ they could gain the stance by buying it as Feat on level 15. But of course, being forced to a) waste a Stance on level 14 for something that's long outdated and b) expend a Feat to gain access to a class feature is both, as you put it, mind-numbingly stupid.

    I recommend giving both Crusader and Warblade the same Stance progression, with stances gained at levels 1, 5, 10 and 15. Simple as that.

    As for your question, if for some unfathomable reason ;) you think that +1 to attack and damage for one round is not worth 4-5 levels, and considering you only have access to three 9th level maneuvers, no, there's not really any good reason to go Crs 20. Ah yes, you also get an extra maneuver granted, but well... all of that isn't exactly a great Capstone. (Although better than what a Rogue gets, haha)
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    (Although better than what a Rogue gets, haha)
    Rogue's Capstone: [ERROR] class_feature not found. return value; +1 BAB, +1 Ref
    Last edited by NNescio; 2011-09-12 at 04:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Rogue's Capstone: [ERROR] class_feature not found. return value; +1 BAB, +1 Ref
    It's still a bit of a lame duck for a capstone, but our group out of pity granted them another pick from their special ability list. lol.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    (Although better than what a Rogue gets, haha)
    Rogue at least has an excuse. "Capstones" seem not to have even occurred to people making core.

    By the time they churned out ToB, there's no excuse. Warblades have beautiful, brilliant capstone. Swordsages have an okay one. Crusaders… apparently don't need one.
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    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Rogue at least has an excuse. "Capstones" seem not to have even occurred to people making core.

    By the time they churned out ToB, there's no excuse. Warblades have beautiful, brilliant capstone. Swordsages have an okay one. Crusaders… apparently don't need one.
    Actually SorcerersCrusaders getting the short end of the stick is standard procedure.
    Charisma based castersmartial classes are always that one step below their Intelligence based counterparts.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Rogue at least has an excuse. "Capstones" seem not to have even occurred to people making core.

    By the time they churned out ToB, there's no excuse. Warblades have beautiful, brilliant capstone. Swordsages have an okay one. Crusaders… apparently don't need one.
    It's called RKV 7.
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    The only good thing about not having a real capstone, as a Crusader, is that if your DM doesn't allow you a sensible stance progression, you have a strong motivation to take 6 levels of melee dips to get Thicket of Blades around your 5th IL.

    Either that, or just play the damn RKV

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    as an aside I just give them Immortal fortitude as a capstone feat that can be entered "in addition to any other stance they might have running".

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Have you ever seen RotW's Halfling Rogue? At 1st level, your ranged sneak attack is +1d6 and your melee sneak attack is +0. At 20th level, your ranged sneak attack is +10d6 and your melee sneak attack is +9d6. I'm pretty sure they meant for ranged to be +2d6 and melee to be +0, and then at 20th level for ranged to be +11d6 and melee to be +9d6.

    Oh, and the entire mechanics for Jump and Carrying Capacities bother me.
    According to the Carrying Capacities chart my Strength is between 16 and 20.
    I have made DC 32 jumps and can reproduce the feat.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Oh, and the entire mechanics for Jump and Carrying Capacities bother me. According to the Carrying Capacities chart my Strength is between 16 and 20.
    As an avid power lifter I can relate to this one. It's almost like the game designers didn't have a lot of experience with picking up heavy things and putting them back down again.


    As far as other rules that don't really work go, a Monk 1/Anything 19 with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat does damage as a 5th level monk, rather than using the SUS table.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    As an avid power lifter I can relate to this one. It's almost like the game designers didn't have a lot of experience with picking up heavy things and putting them back down again.
    I'm quite convinced by now that the WotC staff is consisted mainly of blind quadriplegics and bedside transcribers. How else could they mess up rules for things as simple as basic motor functions?
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I'm quite convinced by now that the WotC staff is consisted mainly of blind quadriplegics and bedside transcribers. How else could they mess up rules for things as simple as basic motor functions?
    Er... because basic motor functions don't translate that well to other contexts. Here's proof.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Er... because basic motor functions don't translate that well to other contexts. Here's proof.
    I moved 2.5 meters!

    Edit: 3.5 meters! Woo!
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2011-09-12 at 12:12 PM.
    Jude P.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I moved 2.5 meters!

    Edit: 3.5 meters! Woo!
    And I thought my 2 meters was good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Somebody that pisses off a Warlock is going to go down fast. But with a Warlock, death will be a mercy because the Warlock is a secondary controller, and en route to killing you he'll first cripple you, then blind you, then set you on fire, then steal your girlfriend.
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  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I moved 2.5 meters!

    Edit: 3.5 meters! Woo!
    Showing real courage! Everyone is a winner!


    ...but obviously that would make you a "blind quadriplegic" then, since you can't do a simple thing like coordinate leg muscles the way most of us do automatically every day... right?

    D&D is not that much of a real-world simulation. There's simulationist elements, but really it's a game, and the carrying rules straddle that line between the two. Even as they stand, they're complicated enough that most people don't even both with them except in emergencies. And if you made them more realistic, they'd almost certainly get more complicated, not less. I'm willing to accept a moderate loss in realism in order to expedite gameplay.
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2011-09-12 at 12:21 PM.
    Avatar by Crimmy

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    How else could they mess up rules for things as simple as basic motor functions?
    Oddly enough, they're actually not too bad at calculating the load you could hold over your head.

    The world record standing military press weight is 535 pounds. The world record clean and jerk weight is 580 pounds. Per D&D rules, you can lift up to your maximum load over your head. For both of those weights, you end up with a Strength of 23 (using the PF chart).

    If you start with 20 STR (18 + racial modifier), a 1st level barbarian could hit that number while raging.

    The same calculations would put me at a strength of around 14, if you go by the largest number for "hold over head" weight and equate that to max standing military press.
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Well, you'll have to forgive us then, since what you've said so far has amounted to demanding that Knowledge Devotion work like the Truenamer.

    The class which is generally agreed to be completely broken in the unplayable sense and the only handbook for which advises people to never, ever play the class because it was so poorly designed.

    So, you'll find that a good portion of the community disagrees with your assertion that such would be good design.
    The problem is the rule that knowing about a monster or being able to identify it has a DC based on the monster HD. THAT was stupid, people may never have seen a red dragon, but the average commoner 1 in D&D land probably knows that red dragons are evil and breath fire, and he can identify the great wyrm red as bad news without ever spending 20+ skill ranks on knowledge arcana.

    Similarly, the odds are he can identify a HUMAN without needing to train a specific skill, but RAW this is a DC 11 knowledge check and hence can't be done untrained.

    Knowledge devotion may well be fine, I have no opinion, but it is in fact stupid that your knowledge can give you a bonus against things you can't identify, but then identifing well known stuff (like cows and people) should be trivial and most people should be able to figure out that the big red flying reptile may be a red dragon and maybe breaths fire without needing to make a DC 42 or whatever knowledge check.

    Gods help you if you need to identify a god. What's the knowledge DC to figure out that the guy who looks JUST LIKE the statue in your temple and is glowing like the sun may be Pelor or someone pretending to be Pelor.

    One skill rank is enough to learn a profession well enough to earn a good living at it, one skill rank grants fluency with a language, two skill ranks is enough to be the difference between pretender no real chance and a likely olympic champion at something like the high jump.

    One skill rank should be enough to bloody well MEMORIZE information equivalent to every monster manual ever printed for any edition of this game, because that's far less information than one language or profession. Sorting out the truth from myth may need more ranks, but the monster knowledge DCs are absurd.

    DougL
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-09-12 at 12:57 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    The problem is the rule that knowing about a monster or being able to identify it has a DC based on the monster HD. THAT was stupid, people may never have seen a red dragon, but the average commoner 1 in D&D land probably knows that red dragons are evil and breath fire, and he can identify the great wyrm red as bad news without ever spending 20+ skill ranks on knowledge arcana.
    It's harder to identify a Warhorse than a Blink Dog.

    A Huge Air Elemental is harder to identify than a Small Air Elemental.

    An Elephant is harder to identify (and know details about) than a Pixie.

    Of course, when I'm playing or running a game, we have situational modifiers... Very rare creatures, or creatures with multiple templates, apply a penalty to the Knowledge Devotion roll.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    I don't have quotes on me right now, but one that came up in game for me was that I had a player who's character was a harpoon specialist.

    Harpoons are thrown weapons.

    By RAW, thrown weapons don't work on enemies that are underwater.

    Ergo, you can't hunt whales with harpoons.
    You hunt whales when they come out of the water to breathe.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    What about spear-fishing?
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    I prefer Crusader 11/Swordsage 2 or Warblade 2/Master of Nine 5 increasing Crusader progression. You can time it right to get a Devoted Spirit 6th level stance at 2nd level Master of Nine. I'm partial to Aura of Perfect Order.

    Anyway, Celestial Mystics have as a prerequisite Vow Of Abstinance, meaning they can't drink alcoholic beverages. Identify has a material component of an owl feather in wine that must be drunk. Celestial Mystics are forbidden to cast Identify.

    If you roll 26 on the random traits table for NPCs, you're screwed. (On purpose though, see #100.)

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    If you roll 26 on the random traits table for NPCs, you're screwed. (On purpose though, see #100.)
    where is this table?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    What about spear-fishing?
    Do you throw the spear? I thought you jabbed with it.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    where is this table?
    3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide, page 128.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Do you throw the spear? I thought you jabbed with it.
    I can't speak for traditional spear fishing, but a modern spear gun is kind of like an industrial murder slingshot.

    My man concern about the harpoons is that a full sized harpoon is heavy. They're also aerodynamic (hydrodynamic) enough that you would think that they could do damage at the first range increment, at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popertop View Post
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeraa View Post
    3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide, page 128.
    Oh wow... that's great.

    Almost as good as pages 91 and 92 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."

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