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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by etrpgb View Post
    They come up with the ridiculous "unholy toughness'' to compensate. The real problem is that undead get d12 what ever base dice they had. So a wizard probably enjoys it; a fighter, a barbarian or a dragon...not much.

    Maybe it is better just to increase the HP dice? For example... d4 becomes d8, d6 becomes d12, d8 becomes 2d8, d10 becomes... d20, d12 become 2d12.
    Average rolls for 2d10 and 1d20 are very different. 11 vs 10.5. So if you're going to double it, it would work better to be consistent and make it 2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12. On the other hand, lots of things are dependent on Hit Dice, so doubling their HD would break things. And I doubt many people have d16s lying around, so doubling the number doesn't work too well either.
    I think that making their HD become d12s and giving them Unholy Toughness is fair.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Yeah, but unholy toughness is limited to only a select few undead, so it is far from a game changer. As a result, to make undead tougher, designers usually pile on the undead HD (also to improve their bab), which has the unintended side-effect of turn undead not working as intended.

    Raw-wise, it seems easier to turn a vampire than a zombie!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I can never understand WOTC's reasoning; taking RAW as a whole is like grabbing a book filled with fortune cookie sayings and basing your life off of them.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    True, I've only seen Unholy Toughness on one thing before. Though I don't look through the undead too often. I don't like undead.

    Turn Undead doesn't seem to me to work very well. It's very limiting. If the BBEG is undead, you're not likely to be able to turn it because it's probably more than 4 HD higher than the party cleric, or whatever that silly limit is. At level 16 and with only moderate optimization for turning, I was rolling in the 30s regularly and by RAW only able to turn undead of up to 20 HD.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Nobody uses their Turn Undead attempts to actually attempt turning undead. Why would anybody try such a silly thing? Those turn attempts are there to fuel your Devotion feats and DMM.

    Seriously, using Turn Undead to turn undead! The idea!

    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Even if you fix the HP thing vampires still can't run. Or be staked.

    Also, related to earlier stuff, even if you fix Knowledge Devotion rangers still have favored enemies they can't identify and most creatures can't even identify their own race.

    It's easier to assume any rule that references creature type is borked.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Firechanter View Post
    Nobody uses their Turn Undead attempts to actually attempt turning undead. Why would anybody try such a silly thing? Those turn attempts are there to fuel your Devotion feats and DMM.

    Seriously, using Turn Undead to turn undead! The idea!

    I one-shotted a final boss's zombie white dragon minion using Turn Undead...somehow. I'm pretty sure the DM didn't use the silly Cleric level +4 cap on highest HD undead affected.
    But yeah, I also had two DMM feats for that build.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Actually, neither. A combination of long- and high-jump. They say that on a long jump you should reach a height of roughly one-quarter the distance you jumped. But I jumped over a picnic table the short way, going only about three feet "long" but about four feet "high".
    So we take 1/4 of 3' away from 4' because I would have gone that high just for jumping 3' forwards. Now it's DC=(3x1)+(3.25x4)=16x2*=32.
    *Because I didn't take a running start and doubt I have the Goliath trait Mountain Movement or the feat Leap of the Heavens.

    (This is how I spent my summer when I couldn't find a job.)

    I've also jumped up 4' walls without a running start before. I've jumped up a roughly 5.5' wall with a 10' running start.
    Surprisingly I've never tried long-jumps. I should get on that.
    That calculation looks a bit wonky. I don't think DCs are additive for jump checks. That would be like adding in the depth of the pit you're trying to clear.

    Were this a game I were running, I would just use the higher DC.

    Wait. This picnic table was higher than it was wide?

    Regardless, a 4 foot standing jump is not something the average commoner can do. I believe the highest standing vertical jump in the NBA is something like 45 inches. Less than four feet. I think Jordan's 48 inches was on a running jump, but that's a best case-scenario from an NBA star.

    Thus, you probably have a Str of 18, Skill Focus (Jump), Athletic, and 4 ranks. Easy +14 so far. Get in a fight with a cat and see how many hp you have so we can guess at your HD.

    I think average jump height is 22.1 inches, which is 1.8 feet. Same DC as a running 3.6 foot high jump. Jump DC of about 14. Pretty reasonable number. I believe jumping a mere 28 inches puts you in the 95th percentile for male standing jumps.

    You've got some legs, friend.
    Last edited by Ursus the Grim; 2011-09-13 at 09:42 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    There's a significant difference between how much you can raise your center of gravity with a jump, and how much you can raise your feet.
    Play your character, not your alignment.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by John Campbell View Post
    There's a significant difference between how much you can raise your center of gravity with a jump, and how much you can raise your feet.
    There is indeed. When attempting to jump over or up to something, it's how high your feet get that's important. It depends on how you measure the height of a jump.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    I think average jump height is 22.1 inches, which is 1.8 feet. Same DC as a running 3.6 foot high jump. Jump DC of about 14. Pretty reasonable number. I believe jumping a mere 28 inches puts you in the 95th percentile for male standing jumps.
    Do you know how those averages were measured? Was it how high they could get their feet?

    Oh, and I can hold my own against a large dog or a drunk teenaged girl. In hand-to-hand combat I favor grappling, and nobody else understands the rules for that so I win by default. I probably don't have more than 2 HD though. I'm only seventeen.
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2011-09-13 at 10:29 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Well that wouldn't be a thrown weapon anymore, would it? You'd go to the rules on normal ranged weapons there, which do work underwater.. they just have hilariously high penalties to hit anything farther away than about 10 feet.
    Harpoon gun would probably have an exception for that, like the underwater crossbow. The two would probably be the same, actually.

    The problem is that submerged targets have total cover against attacks from above water. No, wait, actually, all the cover that water grants is only against attacks from land. If you're on a ship, you're not on land, and thus water offers no cover, so you can harpoon whales!
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Just a few observations:

    When conceptualising undead, did the designers realise that the removal of a con score would make undead npcs very fragile? For example, a dracolich great wyrm dragon would have its hp literally slashed to 1/3 of its original hp, and at cr+3. This often ends up making them very fragile for their cr.
    I think this is why the later Corpse Crafter and Undead Mastery and such ideas came from. It's now quite easy to give them 1d12+6 HP/HD, as long as the right Necromancer made them, and I think these were put in so DMs could easily boost these monsters up to appropriate HP.

    Fun disfunctional rule: they never gave the Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura a duration. You simply become shaken, that's it. It never ends. I'd guess that since it's based on the Lich ability it should be 1 round/level, but that's never stated.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post

    Fun disfunctional rule: they never gave the Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura a duration. You simply become shaken, that's it. It never ends. I'd guess that since it's based on the Lich ability it should be 1 round/level, but that's never stated.

    JaronK
    Ouch. That smarts, Jaron. I posted that like three or four pages back....I guess it really did get swallowed up in all that Knowledge Devotion argument...
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Oh, the jumping discussion's reminded me of one of the most fundamental dysfunctions in the d20 rules: How much that d20 matters in things like skill checks.

    Your average human commoner, average Str, no ranks in Jump, will, 1 time in 20, fail to clear a two-foot gap with a running jump. From a standing start, he will equally often be unable to jump a gap only a foot wide. On the other hand, the same 1 time in 20, the same commoner will be able to clear a twenty-foot chasm with that running jump, or make a ten-foot standing broad jump.
    Play your character, not your alignment.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    There is indeed. When attempting to jump over or up to something, it's how high your feet get that's important. It depends on how you measure the height of a jump.

    Do you know how those averages were measured? Was it how high they could get their feet?

    Oh, and I can hold my own against a large dog or a drunk teenaged girl. In hand-to-hand combat I favor grappling, and nobody else understands the rules for that so I win by default. I probably don't have more than 2 HD though. I'm only seventeen.
    High-jump height is based on reach. Stand with your hand in the air and mark that point... then jump straight up with your hand in the air and mark that point. Typically, they use a pole with markers on it... the highest marker you touch is your high-jump point.

    Thus... high-jumping is based on how high you can reach, not how high your feet come off the ground.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cat Goddess View Post
    High-jump height is based on reach.
    How high you can reach is determined by your high jump result plus your vertical reach, the latter given in it's own table.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    How high you can reach is determined by your high jump result plus your vertical reach, the latter given in it's own table.
    I think you failed to read my total description.

    High Jump is based on (Max reach while jumping) - (Max reach while standing).

    Technically, it could be measured from the top of a person's head... the result would effectively be the same.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cat Goddess View Post
    I think you failed to read my total description.

    High Jump is based on (Max reach while jumping) - (Max reach while standing).

    Technically, it could be measured from the top of a person's head... the result would effectively be the same.
    I find your interpretation hard to accept. By it, a medium creature would need DC 32 to jump at all, so it obviously doesn't work in play, and I don't see any reason to consider it RAW either.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    I find your interpretation hard to accept. By it, a medium creature would need DC 32 to jump at all, so it obviously doesn't work in play, and I don't see any reason to consider it RAW either.
    I think she's talking about real world definitions of how to measure a high jump, and how that might affect translating real world jumps into D&D mechanics.

    Stand up and reach as high as you can on a wall, and mark that spot. Jump as high as you can and touch the wall as far up as you can at the top of the jump, and mark that spot. The vertical distance between the two marks is how high you jumped.

    Now, taking this system as the standard by which jumps should be measured, lifting your feet closer to your torso in the middle of the jump clearly does not increase the height of your jump even though it does increase how tall a barrier your feet can clear. Thus, clearing a 4-foot table in a standing jump as noparlpf did is not a true 4-foot jump unless you do it while remaining at full vertical extension, which I rather doubt he did.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I one-shotted a final boss's zombie white dragon minion using Turn Undead...somehow. I'm pretty sure the DM didn't use the silly Cleric level +4 cap on highest HD undead affected.
    Well, there's plenty of ways to boost your effective cleric level when turning, so the +4 rule can be overcome....

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    The reaping mauler, at 3rd level gets an ability to force a save-or-sleep if he holds a pin for 1 full round. Fort save, utterly trivial DC.

    However, at 5th level he then gets the ability to force a fort-save-or-die against the same abysmal DC, if he holds a pin for 3 full rounds.

    Unfortunately, no one remembered the CDG rules when they were making this class. If the fort save DC is actually a threat to someone, you can put them to sleep and CDG them without having to use the "capstone" ability. What a useful capstone.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Essence_of_War View Post
    The reaping mauler, at 3rd level gets an ability to force a save-or-sleep if he holds a pin for 1 full round. Fort save, utterly trivial DC.

    However, at 5th level he then gets the ability to force a fort-save-or-die against the same abysmal DC, if he holds a pin for 3 full rounds.

    Unfortunately, no one remembered the CDG rules when they were making this class. If the fort save DC is actually a threat to someone, you can put them to sleep and CDG them without having to use the "capstone" ability. What a useful capstone.
    There is one corner case where this is beneficial.

    Elves. Freaking elves, man.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    There is one corner case where this is beneficial.

    Elves. Freaking elves, man.
    No, they're only immune to magic sleep effects. A grappling sleeper hold is quite nonmagical.
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    There is one corner case where this is beneficial.

    Elves. Freaking elves, man.
    Is the Reaping Maulers ability a magical sleep effect? *checks* Nope. It's Ex and not even a sleep effect. So... yeah, elves aren't immune to it.
    Last edited by Anarchy_Kanya; 2011-09-13 at 02:05 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchy_Kanya View Post
    Is the Reaping Maulers ability a magical sleep effect? *checks* Nope. It's Ex and not even a sleep effect. So... yeah, elves aren't immune to it.
    Jokes. Freaking jokes, man.

    Alternately:

    Oozes. Freaking oozes, man.

    (Disclaimer: This is intended to be humorous. Subject42 does not recommend that you attempt to grapple an ooze without sufficient acid resistance and a bottle of air strapped to your face. Subject42 cannot be held liable for any harm associated with grappling oozes.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Popertop View Post
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    Jokes. Freaking jokes, man.

    Alternately:

    Oozes. Freaking oozes, man.

    (Disclaimer: This is intended to be humorous. Subject42 does not recommend that you attempt to grapple an ooze without sufficient acid resistance and a bottle of air strapped to your face. Subject42 cannot be held liable for any harm associated with grappling oozes.)
    Here's an extreme corner case for elves:

    Bulettes. Freaking bulettes, man.

    (Disclaimer: Inedibility does not imply an immunity from being mauled, bitten, ripped apart, or otherwise being harmed.)
    Last edited by NNescio; 2011-09-13 at 02:16 PM.
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Oozes are immune to this ability.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchy_Kanya View Post
    Oozes are immune to this ability.
    Now that I'm looking over the type list, I think the Plant type covers this, though.

    They have an anatomy.

    They are immune to all sleep effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popertop View Post
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    How high you can reach is determined by your high jump result plus your vertical reach, the latter given in it's own table.
    See, I come from a track and field background, so when I think high jump, I think of measuring over what height you can get your body. See, for example, this.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Dust of Sneezing and Choking. 5d4 round stun, no save. That *really* can't be functioning as intended.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    EDIT: Though actually, you know, reading the link you provided would show me that no, D&D's high jumps are treated differently. Not my fault I figured barbarian would be more useful for it's extra move speed in track... silly tradeoff of being unable to read gets me far too often...

    Still, dunking a basketball is like a DC 8-9 jump check for an average human? Wow.
    Last edited by CTrees; 2011-09-13 at 02:38 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    What's more hilarious is that an average farmer (commoner 1; int 10, if he puts 2 cross-class ranks in knowledge(nature) he has a +2 modifier) has a roughly 40% chance (if he rolls 8 or lower) to not have a clue what a given 1HD farm animal (DC 11)is.
    Did he remember to put cross class ranks into knowldege (local)? If not he doesn't know what race HE IS, or anything about this mysterious thing he himself is. If he DID max out his cross class ranks then we're back to a 40% chance that he STILL doesn't know anything whatsoever about his own race, including even the name.

    And remember, there are no retries till you level. There's a fair chance that despite having wasted 4 of his skill points on knowldege local and 4 more on knowledge nature will NEVER figure out what race he is or that farm animal.

    The rules being based on HD and 1 HD putting it out of common knowledge is utterly and totally stupid. Basically, the people writing these rules didn't read these rules, no PC race, without a skill which is cross class for most classes, can identify other members of their own race.

    Maybe this helps explain all the crossbreeds that are wandering arround?
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-09-13 at 02:55 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    [N]o PC race, without a skill which is cross class for most classes, can identify other members of their own race.

    Maybe this helps explain all the crossbreeds that are wandering arround?
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