# Thread: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

1. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by The Cat Goddess
High-jump height is based on reach. Stand with your hand in the air and mark that point... then jump straight up with your hand in the air and mark that point. Typically, they use a pole with markers on it... the highest marker you touch is your high-jump point.

Thus... high-jumping is based on how high you can reach, not how high your feet come off the ground.
Based on this definition, my best standing high jump is only around 26 inches*; on the other hand, I bet I could hit at least 30 inches if I weren't still sore from working out too hard Sunday afternoon and if I weren't sick with whatever I'm sick with. I also feel as though I was holding back a little bit for fear of smacking into the rough concrete wall.
*This is a rough measurement based on jumping next to a wall and marking it with chalk. That's only about DC 16, then.

Originally Posted by CTrees
See, I come from a track and field background, so when I think high jump, I think of measuring over what height you can get your body. See, for example, this.

EDIT: Though actually, you know, reading the link you provided would show me that no, D&D's high jumps are treated differently. Not my fault I figured barbarian would be more useful for it's extra move speed in track... silly tradeoff of being unable to read gets me far too often...

Still, dunking a basketball is like a DC 8-9 jump check for an average human? Wow.
See, I was thinking more like this initially. While I was outside measuring my reach, I also measured my highest standing jump up onto something and I can't jump onto something higher than 4 feet (give or take a few inches) without a running start. What would you guys estimate the DC for that to be? I'm 5'9, if that helps anything.
And wow, dunking a basketball, assuming a running start, should only be about DC 12. Wikipedia says a standard basketball hoop is 10' high, and I just measured my reach (I'm in the 50th percentile for adult American male height) to be ~7'6, or ~7' to my wrist. (I'm assuming you need at least a few inches of your hand to clear the hoop in order to dunk the ball into the hoop.)

2. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
And wow, dunking a basketball, assuming a running start, should only be about DC 12. Wikipedia says a standard basketball hoop is 10' high, and I just measured my reach (I'm in the 50th percentile for adult American male height) to be ~7'6, or ~7' to my wrist. (I'm assuming you need at least a few inches of your hand to clear the hoop in order to dunk the ball into the hoop.)
Average height of an NBA player is about 6'7" according to Wikipedia a respected research journal I found, so hitting a ten-foot hoop on a DC 12-16 reliably is not as unbelievable as it seems.

3. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
There is indeed. When attempting to jump over or up to something, it's how high your feet get that's important. It depends on how you measure the height of a jump.

Do you know how those averages were measured? Was it how high they could get their feet?

Oh, and I can hold my own against a large dog or a drunk teenaged girl. In hand-to-hand combat I favor grappling, and nobody else understands the rules for that so I win by default. I probably don't have more than 2 HD though. I'm only seventeen.
I believe this is based off of how high they can get their feet, similar to how D&D records high jumps.

Admittedly, not 100% on how NBA measured Jordan's high jump.

Originally Posted by The Cat Goddess
High-jump height is based on reach. Stand with your hand in the air and mark that point... then jump straight up with your hand in the air and mark that point. Typically, they use a pole with markers on it... the highest marker you touch is your high-jump point.

Thus... high-jumping is based on how high you can reach, not how high your feet come off the ground.
In the real world track and field, yes. In D&D where monsters have a variety of limb lengths and such (many good jumpers don't even have hands), it doesn't work.

4. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Oh wow... that's great.

Almost as good as pages 91 and 92 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
That's Deja vu right?

5. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

I think we can just sum this up as "In D&D, even a trained athlete is as likely to break the world record as to embarass himself horribly".
And move on.

6. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Assuming height of 6'7" for average NBA player, the Virtruvian Man by Da Vinci suggests a single arm length of 3'3.5".

Amusingly enough, that's just over ten feet.

Also according to the general proportions, the length of a man's leg between his foot and his knee should be roughly 1/4 his height, or 1'7.75" for Joe the NBA star.

Compare that mental image with this one.
After a Dunk.

Note that his feet hang to about knee level for the other players, suggesting the minimum height his feet would need to clear to achieve a dunk.

That being said, 2 feet high for a dunk on a running jump is indeed a DC 8. This is why we rarely see professional players failing to dunk when unhindered.

I, on the other hand, at 5'7" with a reach of 2'9.5" for a maximum vertical reach of 8'4.5" inches would need 1'8". Roughly 2 feet to touch a rim. On a running jump I can rarely do this. Why? My Str is likely lower than 12. I probably don't have ranks in it.

Note, too, that my vertical reach isn't too far off from what WotC suggests, and that humans are among the taller of the medium core races.

Is it impossible? No. I think I can touch the rim about every other try. My friend Nielson could jump like a mofo. The man could also do standing backflips, so clearly his ability scores were better suited.

In other words, what Firechanter said.

7. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim
I believe this is based off of how high they can get their feet, similar to how D&D records high jumps.

Admittedly, not 100% on how NBA measured Jordan's high jump.
I'm going to have to assume that the 40"+ jumps you mentioned are based on vertical reach, not on the height one's feet can reach, considering I just jumped up onto a 4' stone wall and I'm not even at my peak today.
Based on that, 26" is probably the low for me because today is not a good day to be doing physical activities. I'll try again in a few days when I'm not sore, feverish, and nauseous.

8. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
I'm going to have to assume that the 40"+ jumps you mentioned are based on vertical reach, not on the height one's feet can reach, considering I just jumped up onto a 4' stone wall and I'm not even at my peak today.
Based on that, 26" is probably the low for me because today is not a good day to be doing physical activities. I'll try again in a few days when I'm not sore, feverish, and nauseous.
*shrug*

Assume what you want. This is too silly a thread for me to debate what is and isn't possible.

Though I maintain that 4 feet is pretty high for a picnic table.

9. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Then we consider some of the fun things we can do when you have a jump check that exceeds your move speed<Insert Relevant OOTS here> you are in Midair for the end of the round, then cast a spell that drops his modifier and an Ally would be able to have ten seconds of actions while he was in midair.

10. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim
Assuming height of 6'7" for average NBA player, the Virtruvian Man by Da Vinci suggests a single arm length of 3'3.5".

Amusingly enough, that's just over ten feet.
Remember that the arms do not begin at the top of the head. Assume ~9' reach if we're calling the head and neck about a foot.
If I stand on my toes, my reach is between 7'9 and 7'10. If I stand with my heels on the ground, my reach is about 7'6. (It's a little bit hard to measure myself with a measuring tape. I got these numbers by standing against a wall, securing a measuring tape at the floor, and pushing the other end up as high as I could reach.)
I'm the height of an average adult American male; women tend to be 4-5" shorter. So the average vertical reach of an adult American is probably about 7'8, which is close to the (likely rounded off) 8' given in the PHB.

11. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
Remember that the arms do not begin at the top of the head. Assume ~9' reach if we're calling the head and neck about a foot.
If I stand on my toes, my reach is between 7'9 and 7'10. If I stand with my heels on the ground, my reach is about 7'6. (It's a little bit hard to measure myself with a measuring tape. I got these numbers by standing against a wall, securing a measuring tape at the floor, and pushing the other end up as high as I could reach.)
I'm the height of an average adult American male; women tend to be 4-5" shorter. So the average vertical reach of an adult American is probably about 7'8, which is close to the (likely rounded off) 8' given in the PHB.

Ach, you've caught me with that first part. I actually failed to remember that.

12. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by John Campbell
Oh, the jumping discussion's reminded me of one of the most fundamental dysfunctions in the d20 rules: How much that d20 matters in things like skill checks.

Your average human commoner, average Str, no ranks in Jump, will, 1 time in 20, fail to clear a two-foot gap with a running jump. From a standing start, he will equally often be unable to jump a gap only a foot wide. On the other hand, the same 1 time in 20, the same commoner will be able to clear a twenty-foot chasm with that running jump, or make a ten-foot standing broad jump.
Nope, they actually foresaw that. The Natural 1 Autofail/Natural 20 autowin only apply for the purpose of attacks and saves.

And my contribution; Pun-Pun. His very existence is a very severe dysfunction of the rules.

13. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Jjeinn-tae
Nope, they actually foresaw that. The Natural 1 Autofail/Natural 20 autowin only apply for the purpose of attacks and saves.
Note that John wasn't talking about auto-success or auto-failure...

14. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Anarchy_Kanya
Note that John wasn't talking about auto-success or auto-failure...
...What the hell, you're right. What is with those DC's?

15. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim
Ach, you've caught me with that first part. I actually failed to remember that.
I don't remember, but did you post a link for where you got the numbers 40" and 48" or whatever those were? If you could find a link for that (I haven't been able to) that would be awesome.

16. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Blackfang108
Is that the Deja Vu power?
Originally Posted by Dragonsoul
That's Deja vu right?
Yep. And...
IRONIC

17. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
I don't remember, but did you post a link for where you got the numbers 40" and 48" or whatever those were? If you could find a link for that (I haven't been able to) that would be awesome.
Main source 1.

I don't know if you can read Serbian, but the tables are pretty clear.

And for Jordan, the number is bandied about a lot. Here's an analysis of a dunk he made way back when, but it does put some decent measurements together. Highly scientific? Nah. But here it is anyway.

Most 'records' seem to match up with this one.

Published athletic testing from NBA draft prospects can be found here and here.

Again, hardly hard numbers, but they're there.

18. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim
Main source 1.

I don't know if you can read Serbian, but the tables are pretty clear.

And for Jordan, the number is bandied about a lot. Here's an analysis of a dunk he made way back when, but it does put some decent measurements together. Highly scientific? Nah. But here it is anyway.

Most 'records' seem to match up with this one.

Published athletic testing from NBA draft prospects can be found here and here.

Again, hardly hard numbers, but they're there.
I do not in fact speak or read Serbian. I'm limited to English and un pedacito de espańol. I think a friend speaks Serbian; if not, Google Translate and I will be making friends tomorrow.

Well, looks like with a little bit of work and a day when I don't feel sick I could probably get up there with some basketball players. One of those lists 60", though. That's crazy. 40" is my new goal.

19. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
One of those lists 60", though. That's crazy. 40" is my new goal.
Pretty sure that's this guy.

20. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim
Pretty sure that's this guy.
I remember it saying he was 5'10, so yeah, I think so.
I saw a video of a dude jumping over a moving car once. Sure, it was a low car, but it was still impressive. And yet none of my friends with cars would let me try it.

21. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by noparlpf
I remember it saying he was 5'10, so yeah, I think so.
I saw a video of a dude jumping over a moving car once. Sure, it was a low car, but it was still impressive. And yet none of my friends with cars would let me try it.
I believe Lebron James did that for a commercial a few years back... and it turned out to be faked. Do I think it's possible? Of course! But also highly dangerous, and I wouldn't suggest trying it

22. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by CTrees
I believe Lebron James did that for a commercial a few years back... and it turned out to be faked. Do I think it's possible? Of course! But also highly dangerous, and I wouldn't suggest trying it
Darn it. Well, some low cars are only about 4' high. If it went underneath me fast enough I'd be fine; if we timed it wrong I'd be a mess. That might be why none of my friends would drive their cars at me.

23. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by CTrees
I believe Lebron James did that for a commercial a few years back... and it turned out to be faked. Do I think it's possible? Of course! But also highly dangerous, and I wouldn't suggest trying it
I'm old enough to remember the stunt being performed on a TV show called That's Incredible. The guy cleared one car, and came back the next season (I think) to try to do two. He botched his takeoff and needed some surgery on the foot that whacked the windshield, among other things.

24. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Amphetryon
I'm old enough to remember the stunt being performed on a TV show called That's Incredible. The guy cleared one car, and came back the next season (I think) to try to do two. He botched his takeoff and needed some surgery on the foot that whacked the windshield, among other things.
My father had a karate instructor who would jump sedans occasionally (...I have never understood the purpose of it...). He probably never seriously messed up since he's in professional golf now.

No, there's not much reason for me mentioning it, but I had a car jumping person story and it seemed appropriate to join in.

25. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Jjeinn-tae
My father had a karate instructor who would jump sedans occasionally (...I have never understood the purpose of it...). He probably never seriously messed up since he's in professional golf now.

No, there's not much reason for me mentioning it, but I had a car jumping person story and it seemed appropriate to join in.
Ah, are you sure you should jump into a conversation like that?

26. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
Ah, are you sure you should jump into a conversation like that?
I suppose next time she should look before she leaps?

27. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim
I suppose next time she should look before she leaps?
Well, at least nobody got hopping mad over it.

28. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Really, that comment was out of bounds.

29. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

Haha, jumping puns.

30. ## Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

A soaring example that any amount of wit shown on these boards will cause an avalanche of puns. At least the next page will have large amounts of punny responses.

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