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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Everest's Avatar

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Gonna stop lurking for just a post or two and point out that I'm the former DM Mclane is referring to. As for the player, as Mclane said, he's here, but given the circumstances, I'm not gonna name names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    I know. But if he's a good DM, maybe just have him DM. It doesn't sound like he's that good a player.
    Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh no. He's way too biased to be a tolerable DM. One of the people who'll continually insist that melee characters are better, but has a grudge against ToB at the same time for attempting to fix melee. Also doesn't display a sufficient understanding of the concept of "compromise". Just yesterday I gave Mclane an in-depth answer to "Why does everyone hate monks?" and said friend's rebuttal was to use all of the reasons I listed for them sucking as qualities that actually made them good. I have yet to see the exact words, so I can't begin to find sense in it.

    He's actually pretty cool outside of the game, aside from morals that are either played-up trolling or, for lack of a better word, wonky. But DMing for him was taxing enough; no way I'd play under him.

    As for WBL distribution, I was never quite sure if 1/3 was a rule or just a commonly accepted rule, but I figured 1/2 or 1/4 was also pretty close.
    Last edited by Everest; 2011-09-20 at 09:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Sleight Of Hand: Adhesive for your hand? Literal sticky fingers
    That would nuke the other uses for Sleight of Hand. I suggest nimble gloves or talcum powder.

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Tumble: Okay, you got me
    Tumbling vest.

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Use Rope: High strength/flexibility rope.
    Already present as Silk Rope.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    I think you can use a single set of worry beads as a tool of LOTS of mental focus skills.

    Concentration, Autohypnosis, Spellcraft, Psicraft, Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Search, etc.

    And some really high quality shoes can be shoes of move silently / tumble.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2011-09-20 at 10:18 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Wrong. Technically everyone is. The guideline as outlined in DMG 199 is as follows.


    Its a very reasonable house-rule to make, but technically its a suggestion, not a rule. The DMG sums up the logic of it in the following text, but essentially it boils down to encouraging balanced characters rather than splurging on one incredibly powerful item.

    In after swordsage.
    The DMG contradicts itself on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 DMG page 42
    As a general rule, a new character can spend no more than half her total wealth on a single item, and no more than one quarter the total wealth on consumables such as ammunition, scrolls, potions, wands, or alchemical items.
    Or that is, the "suggestion" you outlined says something different from this text, which claims to be a "general rule".
    Last edited by Ernir; 2011-09-20 at 10:27 PM.
    Halfling healer avatar by Akrim.elf.

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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    That would nuke the other uses for Sleight of Hand. I suggest nimble gloves or talcum powder.
    Good point. Your suggestions are good.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Tumbling vest.
    Sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Already present as Silk Rope.
    Really, *really* strong, flexible rope
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divide by Zero View Post
    Hulking Hurler can get something like (10^83)d6 damage, which is many orders of magnitude greater than the number of particles in the universe.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernir View Post
    The DMG contradicts itself on this point.



    Or that is, the "suggestion" you outlined says something different from this text, which claims to be a "general rule".
    Well, its not a contradiction if one is only a guideline.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Speak Language: Dictionary.
    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Oh! Better example!

    DM: That's it! Rocks fall, everyone dies!
    PC1: I have improved evasion
    PC2: Natural twenty on the reflex save!
    PC3: My reflex save is +15, and I didn't roll a one, so I'm good.

    Yeah... do you see that working?

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernalbargain View Post
    Speak Language: Dictionary.
    But...but... you don't make speak language checks... one point is a language. So a +2 circumstance modifier does nothing as the ranks translate directly to languages known.
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    But...but... you don't make speak language checks... one point is a language. So a +2 circumstance modifier does nothing as the ranks translate directly to languages known.
    Exactly. And just having a dictionary doesn't actually mean that you can speak a language. See? It all works out.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for Round 17!

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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Just do what my DM does when someone whines about how she's doing something. Look them square in the eye, and very seriously hey I am dm which means if I say so then 2+2=fish.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Laucorn View Post
    Just do what my DM does when someone whines about how she's doing something. Look them square in the eye, and very seriously hey I am dm which means if I say so then 2+2=fish.
    2 + 2 = fish
    50 gp = +2
    2 + (50 gp) = fish
    50 gp = fish – 2
    sickened = – 2
    50 gp = fish + sickened
    Sick fish are 50 gp

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for Round 17!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    2 + 2 = fish
    50 gp = +2
    2 + (50 gp) = fish
    50 gp = fish – 2
    sickened = – 2
    50 gp = fish + sickened
    Sick fish are 50 gp

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
    SO THAT'S HOW ALGEBRA WORKS!

    Anyway, I'd say for survival a compass could work at least as well as a relevant book.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    2 + 2 = fish
    50 gp = +2
    2 + (50 gp) = fish
    50 gp = fish – 2
    sickened = – 2
    50 gp = fish + sickened
    Sick fish are 50 gp

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
    lol basically what she means is as dm she is god and if you don't like it tough those are the rules she set for the game.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Laucorn View Post
    lol basically what she means is as dm she is god and if you don't like it tough those are the rules she set for the game.
    Bear in mind:

    Rule 00 - The GM is Always Right: No matter how eloquently the Rules Lawyer states his case for the loophole he's trying to abuse, the GM always has the last word.

    Rule 000 - ...But No Players Means No Game: Having the last word doesn't mean the GM can lord it over the players like a tin-pot dictator. Like any other governing body, abuse of power will eventually lead to a coup d'ιtat.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    My favorite was the one for UMD in a thread over at BG, ''Compilation of Lies to Tell Items". "Yeah, I'm totally a wizard, and my int is really 27..."
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Well, its not a contradiction if one is only a guideline.
    Which is what I was trying to say with that second sentence.
    Halfling healer avatar by Akrim.elf.

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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    As a DM I might call for masterwork skill tools making sense and point to the costs of existing such tools in splatbooks. I'm a bit skeptical of tools for skills like concentration and UMD. Tools might not always be practical in combat situations either. As an example the SBG has stats for books as kind of masterwork tools for the knowledge skills and they're pretty expensive and take time to use. Other skills tools taking the form of reference books might be subject to similar restrictions if it were up to me. Others might just accept it as a flat +2 to any skill once the players get enough money and forget about realism (which is admitedly very understandable when it comes to D&D).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    I like masterwork tools, but I have a standing rule that they must be defined, and the player must describe the use during the action they seek to get the bonus.

    You want masterwork book that has knowledge of the planes in it, well you better tell me you pull it out and read it for references when you ask for that +2. Doggy treats grant +2 to handle animal, well you need to say you feed the dog.

    It isn't enough to simply have a tool, but you need to actualy use it.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ormur View Post
    As a DM I might call for masterwork skill tools making sense and point to the costs of existing such tools in splatbooks. I'm a bit skeptical of tools for skills like concentration and UMD. Tools might not always be practical in combat situations either.
    Once again melee gets the shaft. The fighter has great difficulties justifying his use of a masterwork climbing kit just to get the measly +2 bonus, while a Wizard just casts Spider Climb, Levitate, Fly, Dimension Door or whatnot, and he's up the cliff before the fighter and the DM are done arguing.

    Others might just accept it as a flat +2 to any skill once the players get enough money and forget about realism (which is admitedly very understandable when it comes to D&D).
    Yes. Oh my god, yes. This. It's just a +2. To one skill. How much can one fret over a +2??

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Mclane View Post
    I'm the DM. He's one of the players.
    "Rocks fall, you die." -Tomb of Horrors

    If your players are rules lawyering OTHER PLAYERS with CHARACTER CREATION rules, whether they be variants or legit, then you need to srsly teach your players some respect.

    Pre-roll characters for them to settle the dispute with violence, then write a list of obscure homebrew you "forgot" to mention which applies, and don't let them look until after. You're the DM, you wear the pants, they wear the dress of suggestion.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Mclane View Post
    I have a question. The previous DM in my group told me, and my group, that we were not allowed to spend more than 1/3 of our new character's level based wealth on a single item. Is this an official rule, something he house ruled, or is it just an accepted rule? One of my players is giving me hell because "it doesn't make sense" This is his main argument every time he complains about me or the previous DM's rules, even if it's in the actual books.
    It's not in the actual books. There are optional guidelines for not spending more than HALF your money on an item if creating characters higher than first level. These are best ignored. It is not uncommon for players to have >half their wealth in a magic sword or the like.

    It most certainly does not apply to wealth after character creation at any rate.

    Also, he told me about a rule where you can just pay 100 gp and get a masterwork item that give you a plus two to any skill you choose at the moment of item creation. He swears in a very annoying and angry way that it came from an actual book. So, does anyone know what book it came from?
    Go to the SRD, scroll down to masterwork tool. This is core.

    What the real problem seems to be is the conflict between ya'll. Simply require, in a non confrontational way, some sort of justification for his demands. If he says something is a rule, have him bring you the rule, or at least, a book and page reference. If he says something doesn't make sense, have him explain WHY it doesn't make sense. If he cannot do so, clearly he hasn't thought it through.

    You really don't want to resort to "I'm the GM, and it's that way because I SAY so". That'll just inflate the conflict. Having reasonable rules like "show me the rule, and we'll talk about it" for everyone is MUCH easier to justify, and other players are much more likely to back you on that.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-09-21 at 11:58 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    I would say the "no more than x% of your wealth in one item" rule/guideline does make sense, because a character usually does not receive his WBL in one lump sum, but acquires it over years of adventuring. It is very unlikely he's been adventuring over 10 levels naked, or just with basic gear, saving up money for that one 36,000 gp item.

    It's really up to the DM to decide whether he's using this guideline or not, and what the value of x should be. The players need to respect his judgment call.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Tyndmyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    I would say the "no more than x% of your wealth in one item" rule/guideline does make sense, because a character usually does not receive his WBL in one lump sum, but acquires it over years of adventuring. It is very unlikely he's been adventuring over 10 levels naked, or just with basic gear, saving up money for that one 36,000 gp item.

    It's really up to the DM to decide whether he's using this guideline or not, and what the value of x should be. The players need to respect his judgment call.
    Upgrading items is a legal thing. So, there's no particular reason why he didn't start out with a meh magical item that he kept pumping money into. It is a fairly common tactic for characters that are played from level one. Even without this, it's common for adventurers to go for a while without being able to buy loot, and so it's remarkably easy to end up with >half WBL in a single item in that way. Due to the exponential nature of wealth, you never need to spend 10 levels naked. It's more like "gee, I didn't buy anything for two or three levels and have a pile of gold now".
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    I'm sure some DMs subscribe to this logic, and it's not wrong per se, but bottom line, it falls withing the realm of an individual DM judgment call.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Mclane View Post
    I'm the DM. He's one of the players.
    There is your answer to all of your problems. YOU are the DM, there does not have to be a rule in a book or on the internet or created magically out of the players what ever.

    Tell him you are the DM and it IS "X" because you said so.

    Then tell him to stop being an A$$. If you cant tell your friend he is, when he is, perhaps hes not such a good friend.

    If he still has a problem show him the section in the Dungeon Master's Guide ... where it states the rules are guidelines and the DM is in charge blah blah.

    If he still has a problem invite him to not play at the next session.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagukuk View Post
    Tell him you are the DM and it IS "X" because you said so.

    Then tell him to stop being an A$$.
    This will almost certainly result in him saying that you're just as much of a whatever as you just called him. And it's not unreasonable.

    No, no...just point out that there are a lot of books, and if he can't be bothered to look up the rule for something or know where it is, it's rather unfair for him to expect you to do it for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagukuk View Post
    If he still has a problem show him the section in the Dungeon Master's Guide ... where it states the rules are guidelines and the DM is in charge blah blah.
    Nobody quoting this rule ever mentions the long list of caveats against using this power to bully your players around, it seems. Those are right there in that section too, if you read all of it.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2011-09-21 at 12:38 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    2 + 2 = fish
    50 gp = +2
    2 + (50 gp) = fish
    50 gp = fish – 2
    sickened = – 2
    50 gp = fish + sickened
    Sick fish are 50 gp

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
    Zaq, I love you so much.

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    Default Re: New DM, taking crap from players

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    This will almost certainly result in him saying that you're just as much of a whatever as you just called him. And it's not unreasonable.

    No, no...just point out that there are a lot of books, and if he can't be bothered to look up the rule for something or know where it is, it's rather unfair for him to expect you to do it for him.



    Nobody quoting this rule ever mentions the long list of caveats against using this power to bully your players around, it seems. Those are right there in that section too, if you read all of it.
    Tyndmyr, there's so much I wanted to say to the mindset that you're arguing against, but you've already said the vast majority. It raelly annoys me that people are looking to "teach the players a lesson". DMs on a power trip, in my opinion, are the number one cause of group Drama. "Because I'm the DM and I said so" . . . if my DM broke the social contract and actual said those exact words, I would break the social contract too and punch him in the face.

    There's ways to work with your players without being an arrogant prick, guys.

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