Diablo III: Not Just a Vitality Race!

[AgentPaper]

Why would they go with a level cap 39 levels lower then their previous game in the series though? It doesn't make sense whatsoever. If anything, they should eventually raise it higher. I think for now, I'll go with Karoht saying that it was datamined to show level caps up to 99(or 100), then to believe that they are going to keep the max level at 60. Hopefully he'll be proven to be correct, if not, I'll be one sad panda :-(

Sorry, but it's absolutely 60. Any datamined achieves are either old data from before they decided the level cap (which was over a year ago) or stuff put in in expectation of expansions.

You'll probably also be disappointed to hear that there is also only 4 players max in multiplayer, and that there's no skill trees anymore.

Seriously though, as someone playing in the beta, I can tell you that while change might be scary, these are definitely very, very good changes, as are almost all of the changes we've seen so far. If you want to get some more info on the game, there's a nifty site right here that might help you with that.

[Starwulf]

Sorry, but it's absolutely 60. Any datamined achieves are either old data from before they decided the level cap (which was over a year ago) or stuff put in in expectation of expansions.

You'll probably also be disappointed to hear that there is also only 4 players max in multiplayer, and that there's no skill trees anymore.

Seriously though, as someone playing in the beta, I can tell you that while change might be scary, these are definitely very, very good changes, as are almost all of the changes we've seen so far. If you want to get some more info on the game, there's a nifty site right here that might help you with that.

Lol, I have been reading this thread from the start, and all the ones prior, and up until about 9 months ago, I was reading up on D3 pretty regularly, I knew all those other changes, lol. I'm fine with change, but lowering a level cap serves no purpose except to shorten the grind, and quite frankly, I LIKE grind. It's fun for me. Plus, you sound awfully certain, but you can't really predict the future, and I"ll use the following as an example that even "Certainties" aren't always thus: Final Fantasy 11, aka FFXI, by Squaresoft, the only MMORPG Final Fantasy game ever. it started out with a level cap of 50, and it was eventually raised to 75. After that, Squeenix swore up and down that they WOULD NEVER raise the level cap, that it just wasn't going to happen. This went on from 2004(the date of the last level cap raise), until 2010(maybe late 09, but I'm pretty sure it was '10), when out of nowhere, they finally raised the level cap. And not just once, to 80, like everyone had begged for. Nope, they raised it from 75 to 80, from 80 to 85, from 85 to 90, and although I haven't been following recently, they had already declared the cap would be raised to 99 before they finally stopped again.

So, given that, I'm still going to cling to the hope, and personal desire, that Blizzard doesn't stick with a paltry cap of level 60. That's kind of boring. Unless it's going to take as much exp to get to 60 as it did to get to 99 in D2, it's not going to be as much fun for me, and out of the many d2 players I knew, it's not going to be as much fun for them either. Climbing the ladder ranks at the start of each reset, and being the first to 99 in your particular class, or even out of all, is a feeling that is quite unique. I just don't see getting to 60 as being quite an accomplishment.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about WHEN they announced the level cap. I stopped going to their site in January of this year, when my dial-up internet went bat-**** insane on me, and I was a regular forum poster as well on the D3 forums, and there was NOTHING about a level cap of 60 even as far back as January.

[AgentPaper]

http://diablo3x.com/diablo-3-level-cap/

That was september last year.

They made the level cap 60 because they wanted to have actual end-game content, instead of simply endlessly running the same content which you are slowly outclassing more and more as you go, until you reach some arbitrary cap at which point you get to sit around doing nothing because you haven't actually gained anything.

If you're wanting grind, you'll still get it, don't worry. It's just that it'll be a grind for items, instead of a grind for levels.

[Starwulf]

http://diablo3x.com/diablo-3-level-cap/

That was september last year.

They made the level cap 60 because they wanted to have actual end-game content, instead of simply endlessly running the same content which you are slowly outclassing more and more as you go, until you reach some arbitrary cap at which point you get to sit around doing nothing because you haven't actually gained anything.

If you're wanting grind, you'll still get it, don't worry. It's just that it'll be a grind for items, instead of a grind for levels.

Hmm, I stand corrected, though I still don't remember reading it anywhere >< Ahh well. Can't say I like the idea of "End-game" content. Diablo 3 isn't a freaking MMORPG. It doesn't NEED end-game content, It's a hack-slash, Top down, ARPG. It's entire point is to grind for levels and equipment. Not fight "End-game Content". That implies that I will HAVE to group up with other people, which is an MMORPG thing. I'm not interested in that. If I wanted that, I'd go back to FFXI, where I have an established character, with good gear, and good connections. I have to say...this is actually a a bit of a spirit breaker for me, and may very well be the third strike >< Before I make that decision though, can you clarify for me exactly what they mean by "End-Game" content, and whether or not it's going to force grouping on you to finish it?

[Meta]

I think Inferno is the most toted. It's advertised as soloable, but difficult, as every monster is a touch over level 60, meaning you can't overlevel to cakewalk it.

[tyckspoon]

Hmm, I stand corrected, though I still don't remember reading it anywhere >< Ahh well. Can't say I like the idea of "End-game" content. Diablo 3 isn't a freaking MMORPG. It doesn't NEED end-game content, It's a hack-slash, Top down, ARPG. It's entire point is to grind for levels and equipment. Not fight "End-game Content". That implies that I will HAVE to group up with other people, which is an MMORPG thing. I'm not interested in that. If I wanted that, I'd go back to FFXI, where I have an established character, with good gear, and good connections. I have to say...this is actually a a bit of a spirit breaker for me, and may very well be the third strike >< Before I make that decision though, can you clarify for me exactly what they mean by "End-Game" content, and whether or not it's going to force grouping on you to finish it?

I think you're letting a lot of preconceptions get in the way here. All 'end game content' means is the stuff you do after you've gotten through the storyline quests and advancement. Being at level cap and the idea of group raids is just how it takes place in full scale mmorpgs, but it's not really the definition of it. What did you think Baal running was in Diablo 2? Hunting for good exceptional/elite items to make runewords in? MF runs in the Pit? Given the absurd amount of xp required to get the last 20-some levels, most people weren't doing that for the sake of leveling (well, maybe some of the Baal runners.) That was Diablo 2's end game.

[Starwulf]

I think you're letting a lot of preconceptions get in the way here. All 'end game content' means is the stuff you do after you've gotten through the storyline quests and advancement. Being at level cap and the idea of group raids is just how it takes place in full scale mmorpgs, but it's not really the definition of it. What did you think Baal running was in Diablo 2? Hunting for good exceptional/elite items to make runewords in? MF runs in the Pit? Given the absurd amount of xp required to get the last 20-some levels, most people weren't doing that for the sake of leveling (well, maybe some of the Baal runners.) That was Diablo 2's end game.

Yeah, I understand all that fully, of course. It's just the way that he phrased it, instantly set off bells inside my head, because it sounded like MMORPG "End-game" talk. If they are keeping the level cap arbitrarily lower in order to release "End-Game" content, that doesn't just sound like MFing in Inferno, or fighting Inferno Level bosses. That sounds like raids and stuff to me, and I don't want any MMORPG with my Diablo. lol ^^

[AgentPaper]

Just because it was in an MMORPG doesn't mean it's a bad idea. There's a ton of stuff in D3 that's similar to stuff in WoW, simply because those are just generally good things for a game to do. There's also a lot of stuff that is an improvement upon what was done in WoW, learning from the lessons they learned making that game.

Now, I'm not saying that I think they should put in 10-man raids or anything (4 is a very good limit for a variety of reasons), but specific dungeons that are only available at higher levels/difficulties and are specifically tuned for very high level characters might be pretty cool to see.

[Starwulf]

Just because it was in an MMORPG doesn't mean it's a bad idea. There's a ton of stuff in D3 that's similar to stuff in WoW, simply because those are just generally good things for a game to do. There's also a lot of stuff that is an improvement upon what was done in WoW, learning from the lessons they learned making that game.

Now, I'm not saying that I think they should put in 10-man raids or anything (4 is a very good limit for a variety of reasons), but specific dungeons that are only available at higher levels/difficulties and are specifically tuned for very high level characters might be pretty cool to see.

I'll have to politely disagree with you there. To me, the biggest draw-in aspect of the previous two diablos, was the ability to either play the game completely by yourself, offline or online, and be able to complete every single thing in the game, by yourself. OR, you could group together, the game ups it's difficultly level, and you can have fun with friends. But the fact remained, that anytime you didn't feel like playing with others, either because you wanted some alone time, or were just in a foul mood and didn't want to involve someone else in your bad mood, you could go off on your own, and wipe out any area of the game by yourself.

To take that away, in favor of an MMORPG standard "Raid" type situation, is ridiculous and I can't imagine that's going to sit to well with other people, not with as many people I've seen complain on here, and on other forums, including the Blizzard forums themselves, about how they were worried D3 was going to become a WoW clone, just with a Diablo setting. To take away the ability to achieve whatever you want by yourself in the game, is not only annoying, I'd personally go so far as to say it's a bad business decision. It's NOT an MMORPG, it's an ARPG. Keep the WoW stuff where it belongs: In WoW.

[AgentPaper]

Er, I'm not sure who you're arguing with, because it's certainly not me. I specifically said that there shouldn't be raids, and I just said end-game dungeons, nothing about it not working for single-player. (which would be strange considering the rest of the game works for any number of players)

[Meta]

I'll have to politely disagree with you there. To me, the biggest draw-in aspect of the previous two diablos, was the ability to either play the game completely by yourself, offline or online, and be able to complete every single thing in the game, by yourself. OR, you could group together, the game ups it's difficultly level, and you can have fun with friends. But the fact remained, that anytime you didn't feel like playing with others, either because you wanted some alone time, or were just in a foul mood and didn't want to involve someone else in your bad mood, you could go off on your own, and wipe out any area of the game by yourself.

To take that away, in favor of an MMORPG standard "Raid" type situation, is ridiculous and I can't imagine that's going to sit to well with other people, not with as many people I've seen complain on here, and on other forums, including the Blizzard forums themselves, about how they were worried D3 was going to become a WoW clone, just with a Diablo setting. To take away the ability to achieve whatever you want by yourself in the game, is not only annoying, I'd personally go so far as to say it's a bad business decision. It's NOT an MMORPG, it's an ARPG. Keep the WoW stuff where it belongs: In WoW.

All of D3's content can be experienced solo.

[Starwulf]

Er, I'm not sure who you're arguing with, because it's certainly not me. I specifically said that there shouldn't be raids, and I just said end-game dungeons, nothing about it not working for single-player. (which would be strange considering the rest of the game works for any number of players)

errr....Sorry bout that. I misread your comment then, I thought you were advocating end-game content that required more then one player to complete for D3. ^^ My bad entirely then :)

[Karoht]

@99 VS 60
It's a number. Hitting the cap is hitting the cap. All those things you were talking about, like hitting the cap first for your given class, it's the same thing regardless of the number.

"99 is more epic than 60"
I think that the square root of negative 1 is far more interesting number, but that's just my opinion.

Moreover, we have no idea how long it will take to hit 60. It might be mid-hell, it might be late-hell. It might require a grind (re: any number of hell runs higher than 2) of late-hell.

[Sholos]

@99 VS 60
It's a number. Hitting the cap is hitting the cap. All those things you were talking about, like hitting the cap first for your given class, it's the same thing regardless of the number.

"99 is more epic than 60"
I think that the square root of negative 1 is far more interesting number, but that's just my opinion.

Moreover, we have no idea how long it will take to hit 60. It might be mid-hell, it might be late-hell. It might require a grind (re: any number of hell runs higher than 2) of late-hell.

This reminds me of a joke:

A good engineer can give you an amp that goes to 11. A great engineer asks, "How high would you like it?"

Point being that the top is the same no matter what number you give it.

Now, admittedly, there's the whole speed of progression thing as in how much difference each level makes, but there's no reason to assume that a level cap of 99 would mean more powerful characters than a level cap of 60. Not unless there's a guaranteed progression per level that is established in stone.

[Karoht]

Extra Credits did a show devoted to the D3 Auction House. It presents it rather well, but from the perspective that everyone is going to participate in the Real Money transactions. It doesn't get into the doom and gloom opinions though, and does remind viewers at some point that just because there is an option to pay for gear, doesn't mean you have to, and that there is a big difference between games that require you to and games where it's just an option.
Check it out over on penny-arcade, I think it's a rather good presentation on the subject and the impact it will likely have.

Personally, I'm not likely to use the RMAH because I'm just more likely to pass items to friends if I don't have a use for them. IE-Demon Hunter equipment I will pretty much be giving away because neither me or my fiance are going to play as Demon Hunters. Sure, I'll likely use it at some point, but I constantly wonder how often I will run into really good items worth selling on the RMAH that either me or my friends won't be able to use.

In fact, I figure that will probably be a lot of people's qualifiers:
-Personally can't use the item
-Friends don't need or want the item (IE-All my friends have equal or better gear)
-Actually worth something on the RMAH.

[Psyren]

Yeah, was just coming in to discuss that video.

I think Blizzard is making the right move here. Real Money is a part of every RPG they make, so they may as well get their paws wet. And if it means they can afford to keep cranking out content without charging a (or too much of a) subscription fee then I'm all for it.

...Will D3 require a subscription?

[Gamerlord]

...Will D3 require a subscription?

Thankfully, no.

[Psyren]

Then that just cements the need for the RMAH (or RMM if you prefer) to succeed. They need a continuing source of revenue to be able to churn out patches and other content, and in the absence of subs the marketplace is it.

I'd be especially excited if DIII ends up being more profitable than WoW from all the commissions

[Karoht]

Diablo is not a subscription based game.

Multiplayer (if you even choose to play with other people, nothing forces you to do so as all content is in fact solo-able) is 4 people.
Also, I keep needing to point this out to people, so I'll point it out again. Loot drops for you and you alone, even in multiplayer. If something drops, the other player doesn't even SEE it on their screen. They don't know that you've looted anything, so if you get an item that is not really usable by you and is usable by your partner, they don't even know you have it unless you offer it up. No one is pestering you for the item unless you make them aware of it. So no one can ninja loot, no one can whine that you got their item (unless you brag about it and then don't share or something), no one can steal from you unless they hack your account.

And this isn't just on the cool items, this is everything. Even gold.
Which actually created an interesting effect when I was playing multiplayer. Spliting up is actually discouraged this way. If one player goes one way and kills a bunch of things and you go another way and loot a bunch of chests, their may in fact be goodies on the ground in both locations, some only you can see, some only the other player can see. So it's much more efficient to keep together, loot rooms together, kick in doors and kill bad guys together.
No idea what this does to drop rates BTW.

It neither penalizes you nor rewards you for being selfish or selfless, it's rather neutral on the matter.

It even fosters a bit of sharing. I'll give an example.
So I decided to test out the matchmaking system and set my game to public. Someone joined in, we started smashing stuff up pretty quick. The other player asks me how good my crafting is. I tell her I can make level 8+ items. She (I'll assume) says her crafting is crap, so we make a deal. She'll turn over all the training pages she finds if I'm willing to craft her some gear with her materials. I agree. By the end of the runs, I had a boat load of training pages which helped advance my crafting, and I in turn took a few moments of my time to make her some items using her materials. She walked away decked out really well, I walked away with better crafting skill. It was very win-win.

Auction House Speculation:
Training Pages, certain crafting materials, rare items and higher, runestones (if they indeed are drops).
Keep gold on hand to pick up items on the GAH and relist them over to the RMAH. That is, if you're a mean person.

[Starwulf]

Then that just cements the need for the RMAH (or RMM if you prefer) to succeed. They need a continuing source of revenue to be able to churn out patches and other content, and in the absence of subs the marketplace is it.

I'd be especially excited if DIII ends up being more profitable than WoW from all the commissions

I still thoroughly disagree with the idea of an RMAH, but I'll leave it at that, been enough discussions on it as it is ^^

It even fosters a bit of sharing. I'll give an example.
So I decided to test out the matchmaking system and set my game to public. Someone joined in, we started smashing stuff up pretty quick. The other player asks me how good my crafting is. I tell her I can make level 8+ items. She (I'll assume) says her crafting is crap, so we make a deal. She'll turn over all the training pages she finds if I'm willing to craft her some gear with her materials. I agree. By the end of the runs, I had a boat load of training pages which helped advance my crafting, and I in turn took a few moments of my time to make her some items using her materials. She walked away decked out really well, I walked away with better crafting skill. It was very win-win.

Auction House Speculation:
Training Pages, certain crafting materials, rare items and higher, runestones (if they indeed are drops).
Keep gold on hand to pick up items on the GAH and relist them over to the RMAH. That is, if you're a mean person.

What is this crafting bit? I seem to remember vague mentions of it back when I could get the D3 site to load, but not much was being said, even on the forums. What's the crafting like? Weapons, Armor, Jewelry? Are there different recipes to get different modifiers(Much like D2's Blood, Safety, caster recipes?)

[Psyren]

And this isn't just on the cool items, this is everything. Even gold.
Which actually created an interesting effect when I was playing multiplayer. Spliting up is actually discouraged this way. If one player goes one way and kills a bunch of things and you go another way and loot a bunch of chests, their may in fact be goodies on the ground in both locations, some only you can see, some only the other player can see. So it's much more efficient to keep together, loot rooms together, kick in doors and kill bad guys together.
No idea what this does to drop rates BTW.

Love this.

Back in D2, there was incentive to team up (the monsters were harder) but there was also incentive to split off on your own so you could hog any drops you got. This led to a rather antisocial practice where heavily-geared players would join "Act 1 Hell" games, ignore everyone's pleas for help and go solo the bosses in the other areas/acts that the players hadn't gotten to yet.

As funny as it was when lag or bad luck caused some of them to fail, the ones that got good at this tended to take out at least Meph and Andariel, and/or clear Sanctuary, netting some very nice drops due to the /players8 bonus. And often, the creator of the room would be forced to create a new "Act 1 Hell" since they would no longer be able to progress in the game they had created. I remember on one character I joined a string of these trying to kill Andariel and move out of act 1, but there was another player leaping into the games ahead of me and assassinating her for her easy drops.

But I digress; this new loot system sounds like a fantastic solution. With less incentive to split up, we might end up *gasp* talking to each other during a tombs run or something.

I still thoroughly disagree with the idea of an RMAH, but I'll leave it at that, been enough discussions on it as it is ^^

Did you watch the video though?

This is bigger than just Diablo and Blizzard - this is a proof-of-concept for gaming as a whole. And few companies besides Blizzard have the kind of guaranteed userbase worldwide to see if something like this is feasible. I'm extremely excited.

[Karoht]

I still thoroughly disagree with the idea of an RMAH, but I'll leave it at that, been enough discussions on it as it is ^^

RMAH isn't going to hurt anyone who doesn't want to use it.

What is this crafting bit? I seem to remember vague mentions of it back when I could get the D3 site to load, but not much was being said, even on the forums. What's the crafting like? Weapons, Armor, Jewelry? Are there different recipes to get different modifiers(Much like D2's Blood, Safety, caster recipes?)

We haven't seen much of crafting, partly because level in the beta is capped at 13, and only Blacksmithing is available at the moment. Most of the modifiers are random, but with a few guaranteed stats.
Example:
Recipe to make a Wand for a Wizard
+X% to Wizard Damage (fixed)
+Y to Arcane Power (fixed)
1-3 Random Properties (were it will add 1-3 random properties in random amounts.
Costs [mats]

Finished product might be:
Wand
+10% to Wizard Damage (which boosts all damage from Wizard skills and abilities)
+7 to Arcane Power (so you have a larger pool of Arcane Power to work with)
+7 Precision
+5 Damage
+5 Critical Hit

Also, your crafting skills are account wide (though that could just be beta but I believe it's supposed to go live this way). Meaning, your level 13 Barbarian logs off, you log on to your level 5 Wizard. You have the same crafting level though the crafting guy. You don't just personally walk up to an anvil and start making something, you talk to the blacksmith, you give him mats, he makes item. You're really leveling up him and his shop, not your personal crafting ability. Stash is also account wide.
I think the 3 professions are blacksmithing jewelery and enchanting.

And I should point out that crafting gear does indeed not suck. There are legendary crafting recipies (I don't know if recipies drop or not, I haven't seen any yet) some of which are for low level legendary items. Materials are very easy to get your hands on. Raw materials can drop from pretty much everything, and you have 3 choices for getting rid of items, you can break them down for one type of materials, another type of materials, or vendor for gold.
And as far as I can tell, there are no plans to add in Bind on Pickup crafting materials. And I don't forsee anyone willing to pay real money for crafting materials or crafted items. Extremely rare recipies might be on RMAH, and people might be willing to pay for them, but doubtful. Gold yes, real money not likely.


So for anyone who is afraid of those who will buy power, the methods for acquiring power without paying for it are abundant and relatively easy. Buying an item off the RMAH is more like paying for the convenience of it, rather than making it yourself or waiting for your lucky stars to line up and have the specific item drop for you. It's really no different than buying a TV dinner VS making spagetti yourself.

[Psyren]

Also, your crafting skills are account wide (though that could just be beta but I believe it's supposed to go live this way).

Hm. Question here: can one account learn all the crafting skills or only one? Meaning, will I have to get three accounts if I want to be good at all three crafting skills?

[Karoht]

Hm. Question here: can one account learn all the crafting skills or only one? Meaning, will I have to get three accounts if I want to be good at all three crafting skills?

Since the other 2 are not in the beta I can only assume, but I'm very certain that one account can learn all 3, as all the developer commentary on them refer to it that way. Sadly I can't point you to a specific link or source on that.
Moreover, it would just make sense that 1 account can learn all 3.

I believe you get access to the other 2 in later acts (same with hirelings), the Beta is confined to the first major quest line of act 1.

That major quest line BTW takes you from easily level 1-9, and has lots of little parts to it, including mini-bosses and other such encounters, as well as the side quests you can stumble onto.

[Starwulf]

Did you watch the video though?

This is bigger than just Diablo and Blizzard - this is a proof-of-concept for gaming as a whole. And few companies besides Blizzard have the kind of guaranteed userbase worldwide to see if something like this is feasible. I'm extremely excited.

Don't need to watch the video to know that I oppose RMAH. I don't care if this is a testing ground to see if it's feasible, I don't WANT it to be feasible, I entirely and wholeheartedly oppose RMAHs in every game, for now, and all of time. They have no place in video games with the exception of Free to play Browser-based MMORPGs that have no other way of making money, and even then I firmly believe any items you be able to purchase or sell are strictly cosmetic things, like different outfits, or adding flames or something to your armor/sword but adds no extra defense or damage. I'm just against it, period.

@Karoht: Wow, that crafting system sounds amazing and quite fun :) Looking forward to being able to check it out in-game once it's released ^^. Thanks for the info, if they introduce the other two crafting methods in the beta, please be sure to post up info for them as well if you don't mind.

[Meta]

Apparently a large wave of beta invites went out this week.

[AgentPaper]

Don't need to watch the video to know that I oppose RMAH.

Er, the whole point of the video is that it'll change your mind. Or maybe it won't, but you can't know that until you've watched it.

[Starwulf]

Er, the whole point of the video is that it'll change your mind. Or maybe it won't, but you can't know that until you've watched it.

Two things: A: I can't watch it, as has been said many times, even in this thread, I'm on 26.4k dial-up. Watching videos is near impossible. B: I'm an extremely stubborn person, and no video, no matter how compelling, is going to change my viewpoint. From the first time I ever learned about RMT, I've been vehemently opposed to it, and there is literally nothing that could change my mind of that opinion. No matter how well regulated, or how un-detrimental to the game it might be, I'm against it.

[Psyren]

Two things: A: I can't watch it, as has been said many times, even in this thread, I'm on 26.4k dial-up. Watching videos is near impossible. B: I'm an extremely stubborn person, and no video, no matter how compelling, is going to change my viewpoint. From the first time I ever learned about RMT, I've been vehemently opposed to it, and there is literally nothing that could change my mind of that opinion. No matter how well regulated, or how un-detrimental to the game it might be, I'm against it.

Sorry you feel that way.


You'll be interested to note though that the video starts off from your position - namely, predicting that Blizzard will lose a substantial chunk of revenue by limiting the game to online-only. (How do you plan on playing it with a connection like that anyway? )

They just go on to make the very valid point that the projected revenue from a RMM will dwarf what they lose.

[Tavar]

Don't need to watch the video to know that I oppose RMAH. I don't care if this is a testing ground to see if it's feasible, I don't WANT it to be feasible, I entirely and wholeheartedly oppose RMAHs in every game, for now, and all of time.

I'm not sure going that far is wise. After all, because they're having a real money store, it will be much easier to have continued support for the game. That's not to say it has my support, but making such a black and white view can be unwise.