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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default spiked chain gish?

    I was thinking. A Spiked chain is a 2-handed weapon, so power attack doubles the damage. I could make a Ftr/Wiz gish that easily gets the spiked chain, and with a simple enlarge spell would have a threat range of 20'. Then throw in a wraith strike and any AOO I get would also benefit from it until my next turn.

    1. Fighter - EWF(Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, WF(Spiked Chain)
    2. Fighter - Power Attack
    3. Wizard - Scribe Scroll, Practised Spell Caster
    4. Wizard
    5. Wizard
    6. Wizard - Combat Casting
    7. Spell Sword
    8-12 - Abjurant Champion - Arcane Strike, Minor Shapeshift
    13-20 Sacred Exorcist - Robilars Gambit, Divine Might

    Maybe swap out WF for Knowledge Devotion.....

    What do you think?

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Ditch weapon focus.
    If you've got a 'skillful' chain, you could even ditch the EWP: Spiked chain.

    Buy the steadfast boots from MiC. While you've got a weapon in two hands, you're always considered to have set your weapon against a charge. Without wasting an action, or having to buy a weapon that can be set against a charge.
    That includes the double damage you get for hitting with a set weapon, nor does it eat an AOO.

    If you're going to fight while invisible, get Spectral Skirmisher (PHB2).

    Actually,
    Here's a thread where I was working on a dex gish of my own. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196596

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by macdaddy View Post
    1. Fighter - EWF(Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, WF(Spiked Chain)
    Consider taking Planar Touchstone at ECL 6, link to Catalogues of Enlightenment, and take the War Domain power to pick up EWP (Spiked Chain) and WF (Spiked Chain). The following deities have Spiked Chain as a favored weapon:

    Kossuth (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p. 234)
    Tsolorandril (Living Greyhawk Deities v2.0 p. 171)
    Zoser (Sandstorm p. 45)

    The other option is skip EWP altogether and just keep a wand of master's touch handy until you can afford a Skillful or Proficient weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by macdaddy View Post
    2. Fighter - Power Attack
    3. Wizard - Scribe Scroll, Practised Spell Caster
    I'm not sure +2 CL is really worth one of your feat slots on a gish. Maybe put this off until later and take Combat Casting here to get it out of the way?

    Consider the Simple Wizard variant (SRD/UA) to swap scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by macdaddy View Post
    6. Wizard - Combat Casting
    I'd put Planar Touchstone or Arcane Strike here.

    Quote Originally Posted by macdaddy View Post
    13-20 Sacred Exorcist - Robilars Gambit, Divine Might
    Divine Might on a wizard chassis... is your Cha bonus really going to be reasonably decent (or even positive...)?

    If you want to do an AoO/Lockdown build, then rather than Power Attack I'd probably look at picking up Improved Trip, Stand Still, Knock-Down, etc. Eldritch Knight for 13-20 might help there, although you lose another caster level.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Yes, the Improved Trip tree is better than Power Attack here.

    Do you really need Scribe Scroll? Take the Combat Wizard variant and pick a Fighter bonus feat instead (Combat Expertise, opening the way to Improved Trip, probably).

    Practiced Spellcaster is a bit meh, since most of the spells you want to cast (Enlarge Person, Nerveskitter, etc) aren't really level dependant. It's not like you'll be throwing Magic Missiles all the time.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Three words: Jade Phoenix Mage.

    A Swordsage with a Shadow Hand maneuver gains the ability to get the Shadow Blade feat, which adds Dex to damage for any Shadow Hand weapon, which includes the Spiked Chain. Coupled with Weapon Finesse (which I believe works with Spiked Chains), you can ignore Strength altogether if you choose, though you probably won't for Power Attack. If you ignore spells with DCs and choose to go for buffs, you could try Illumian so that you can have Dexterity to determine spells you gain, as well.

    Jade Phoenix Mage is a pretty good gish with some free metamagic every fight, and the maneuvers and stances can add some pretty good stuff to your arsenal. The casting will be a bit weaker than usual, unfortunately.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Iluminian sigils only work for bonus spell from a high ability score, you still need at least 19 int for 9th level spells
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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Wepon finnese does not work on a spiked chain. It's not light.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Weapon Finesse [General]
    Prerequisite

    Base attack bonus +1.
    Benefit

    With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
    Ahem.........

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Wepon finnese does not work on a spiked chain. It's not light.
    Read the feat.
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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Wepon finnese does not work on a spiked chain. It's not light.
    Quote Originally Posted by Weapons, SRD
    Chain, Spiked
    A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

    You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.

    When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

    You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you.
    Specific triumphs general

    Edit: Wait.. how do I call people that answered the same question as me, in a different way seconds before I post it?
    Last edited by Dusk Eclipse; 2011-09-27 at 11:03 AM.
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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Iluminian sigils only work for bonus spell from a high ability score, you still need at least 19 int for 9th level spells
    Right. Well, you'd barely be able to get 9th level spells, the minimal one level of Swordsage and two levels lost from JPM would put you at -3 Caster Level, assuming you went Wizard you'd barely scrape together 9th level spells. So... yeah, 19 Int. It's still not that hard to achieve.

    If you were to build a character with some levels already, I'd say take the Swordsage level as late as possible in the build for the maneuver selection. But without Shadow Blade you'd be pretty weak in the early levels in strict gish-i-ness. I'm sure there's a way to throw Abjurant Champion in the build.

    The result would be an incredibly high AC gish (high Dex, Shield and Greater Mage Armor (Luminous Armor if you're good)), so you'd be pretty good tank/skirmisher.
    Last edited by Sarusta; 2011-09-27 at 11:05 AM.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    umm Wizard 6/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage + 5?
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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarusta View Post
    Right. Well, you'd barely be able to get 9th level spells, the minimal one level of Swordsage and two levels lost from JPM would put you at -3 Caster Level, assuming you went Wizard you'd barely scrape together 9th level spells. So... yeah, 19 Int. It's still not that hard to achieve.

    If you were to build a character with some levels already, I'd say take the Swordsage level as late as possible in the build for the maneuver selection. But without Shadow Blade you'd be pretty weak in the early levels in strict gish-i-ness. I'm sure there's a way to throw Abjurant Champion in the build.

    The result would be an incredibly high AC gish (high Dex, Shield and Greater Mage Armor (Luminous Armor if you're good)), so you'd be pretty good tank/skirmisher.
    As a caveat, Abjurant Champion goodies don't work with Greater Mage Armor, because it's not an Abjuration spell (it does work with Shield spell, though)

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    It also works with (Greater) Luminous Armour
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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    umm Wizard 6/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage + 5?
    Aw, but then you can't get the JPM capstone, which is just so much fun.

    Abjurant Champion requires BAB +5, JPM requires Concentration 9 ranks... yeah, you can't max out both Prestiges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladislav View Post
    As a caveat, Abjurant Champion goodies don't work with Greater Mage Armor, because it's not an Abjuration spell (it does work with Shield spell, though)
    Yeah, but it's still +AC, at the least.
    Last edited by Sarusta; 2011-09-27 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    You can go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4 and still have 17th level casting and +16 BAB by 20th. Put two or more Incantatrix levels before or during Abjurant Champion for Cooperative Metamagic: Persistent buffs (action economy doesn't exist outside of combat, so you can cooperative metamagic your own spells). You can use the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will to qualify for Incantatrix without spending a feat on it.

    Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 can be replaced with Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 3, you get the same BAB and casting with slightly better benefits, and if you put Human or Elf Paragon at level 1 your skills are way better. Even better yet for a chain tripper, since prestige class levels add fully to your initiator level (ToB p39), you could go Human/Elf Paragon 1/ Wizard 2/ Paragon 2/ Crusader 1, and pick Thicket of Blades for your stance. Note that the limitation to 1st level stances at the first class level is a misconception, the limit is on character creation, it has nothing to do with multiclassing into an initiator class. I'd definitely go Human, and definitely get the Martial Wizard variant for a Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll. That will play as more of a caster or maybe a second-row warrior, using combat reflexes and a reach weapon to discourage enemies from approaching while he throws spells. With that you can actually take Jade Phoenix Mage instead of Eldritch Knight.

    Don't bother with a spiked chain, get Knock-Down and use Persistent Thunderlance, which can be accomplished at Human Paragon 3/ Wizard 2/ Crusader 1/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 2. Feats should be Combat Reflexes (H), Combat Expertise (1), Improved Trip (W), Knock-Down (3), Extend Spell (P), Combat Casting (6), Iron Will (OH), Persistent Spell (I), Minor Shapeshift (9), etc. You should use Cooperative Metamagic: Persistent with Thunderlance, Shield, Wraithstrike, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Fly, Displacement, and Bladeweave if your Int is high enough. Later on you can use that and Metamagic Effect: Persistent on Greater Mirror Image, Draconic Polymorph, and Bite of the Weretiger as well. Be sure to always take ten on your Spellcraft checks to use those abilities if doing so will succeed, and get an item that grants a Competence bonus on Spellcraft checks so you can always Persist your highest level spells by taking ten.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Consider taking Planar Touchstone at ECL 6, link to Catalogues of Enlightenment, and take the War Domain power to pick up EWP (Spiked Chain) and WF (Spiked Chain). The following deities have Spiked Chain as a favored weapon:
    That doesn't work, I'm afraid; the War Domain granted power is more specific.
    Granted Power: Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deityís favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deityís favored weapon.
    You'll only get proficiency with the spiked chain if it's somehow a martial (not exotic) weapon for you.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is always a good gish, the classic sorcadin. The only downside is you can't cast Greater Luminous Armor (unless you burn a feat on Extra Spell, I suppose), but you get all the sorcadin goodies - charisma to saves, 18th level sorcerer casting, and decent hit dice and BAB. Season with Arcane Strike to taste and enjoy.

    Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 is a good ToB gish build. Biggest advantage here, aside from being a Warblade, is that if your DM is the type who likes to throw random loot out and you end up with, say, a really nice Longaxe (CV) you can trade your Spiked Chain proficiency for it. Plus you have the standard Warblade schtick, counters, boosts, mobility, etc, etc. A good gish build in general.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Check out the Kensai Variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine. You get free prof. with your choice of exotic or martial weapon and damage and attack bonus per level of fighter. Makes it (somewhat) worth it to stick to fighter, for at least 5 levels.

    You can always Gestalt Duskblade with Wizard though to nice effect.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by hex0 View Post
    Check out the Kensai Variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine. You get free prof. with your choice of exotic or martial weapon and damage and attack bonus per level of fighter. Makes it (somewhat) worth it to stick to fighter, for at least 5 levels.

    You can always Gestalt Duskblade with Wizard though to nice effect.
    That's dragon mag 310 for those without an encyclopedic knowledge of ACFs.
    And you can gestalt almost anything with wizard to great effect, a shame though, that this isn't for a gestalt game. (And I'm not sure if the duskblade spell channeling works with spells you get from other sources like sorc or wizard)


    addendum to my original post:
    Ditch weapon focus unless you need it as a prereq for something, such as Exotic Weapon master. Otherwise, Knowledge Devotion will be much more useful (thinking mans weapon focus, that works).

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    That's dragon mag 310 for those without an encyclopedic knowledge of ACFs.
    And you can gestalt almost anything with wizard to great effect, a shame though, that this isn't for a gestalt game. (And I'm not sure if the duskblade spell channeling works with spells you get from other sources like sorc or wizard)
    ANY touch spell you know.

    (I want to make a gestalt build of Monk/Wizard/Duskblade/Enlightened Fist that flurry with a Held Polar Ray, don't you?)

    Also, Spiked Chain is the Weapon of Choice for Duskblades.
    Last edited by hex0; 2011-09-28 at 04:10 PM.

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    Default Re: spiked chain gish?

    His attack bonus is low, doesn't have shock trooper and thus weapon focus will deal more damage than power attack. But I agree to ditch both and grab improved trip. Especially since they're tasty touch attacks and you're 2 points behind on BAB (plus the feats you can't afford).

    If your game has any down time at all I'd strongly consider craft magic arms and armor and maybe, if you can squeeze it in, craft wondrous items.

    Good spells include quickened true strike, feather fall, enlarge person, see invisibility, invisibility, false life, phantom steed, heroism, greater magic weapon, stoneskin and greater invisibility. Early on (as your high level spells) I'd consider web, sleet storm, haste (later get boots of speed), solid fog, wall of ice, enervation, wall of stone, wall of force. I'm intentionally avoiding those heavily dependant on saves. Past level 5 not much in particular jumps out at me, so whatever for that. Also get scrolls of all the various utility spells. Get vampiric touch or empowered magic missile or etc. for a spell storing weapon. Since you can't cast and swing at the same time, the swift spells in spell compendium are particularly tasty once you have the extra spell slots to blow.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2011-09-28 at 04:24 PM.
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