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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Beowulf from 2007 is indeed nice story, even though it's mostly fantasy....

    Sad part is that this fantasy looks more similar to something 7 - 10th c. Scan than most other actually "Viking" films, I guess.

    "Stara Baśn" is in the same vein, and while it has some redeeming features, it's pretty bad for most part...

    Duel of heavily armored Big Bad against guy with shirt and bow in freaking circle of 20 feet of diameter wouldn't really fly even in Diablo, and yet they made it.......
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post

    Then there is the pretty realistic if dark Finnish movie Ofelas ("Pathfinder) of 1987

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093668/

    Not to be confused with the crappy 2007 American remake

    G.
    Just to clarify, that movie is Norwegian, not Finnish.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Beowulf and Grendel looks quite good in regard to the costumes, sets, and props.

    But I think it has one major problem. It's boring!
    This story is 15 minutes at the most and instead of fleshing it out, the movie just adds padding.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Not most thrilling film, but since story is knows since like 1000......

    I actually enjoyed it quite a lot because it had quite tense atmosphere indeed, rather grim one too.

    For pretty much undisclosed period it was set in, AFAIR, the costumes etc. were quite decent, as well decently "dark agish" mentality of characters, at least for such a film.


    At least mail looks like it has rivets.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2011-10-14 at 03:23 PM.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
    Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

    Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    anyone seen this one?

    http://vikingsofbjornstad.gbtllc.com...hadowRaven1988

    It looks great, or at least decent. Not on netflix and can't find it for under $80, and even then not sure if it will have English subtitles :(.

    The whole situation is grim though, why aren't there MORE Viking movies? Clearly there need to be many many more. Why haven't they adapted a few more of the Sagas? Egils Saga or Hrolf Kraki or any of those would be great...

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I like Kurt Douglas 1958 "The Vikings", it's at least in the ball park and holds up surprisingly well in spite of some odd casting decisions (Tony Curtius as a Saxon / Viking hahah)
    . . .
    G.
    I saw this movie when I was in Elementary school over 20 years ago. Whenever anybody mentions it, the theme music immediately comes to mind after all these years. :-)

    I think this may have been the movie where they made a very accurate replica of a longship based on the remains of an original. Then they hired a bunch of 6+ foot tall Scandinavian extras to man it -- it was then that they discovered Vikings weren't that tall back then, and the extras were too cramped to row the boat! :-)

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    And here I was thinking that a sword is the only kind of bladed weapon that would never be called a glaive. Silly me.
    You should see translated Chinese. The modern translation of Romance of the Three Kingdoms usually uses the term "sword", sometimes with some specificity and attached fancy title to describe the weapon that Guan Yu (Lord Guan) wields. The artwork in this modern translation quite clearly shows a Guan Dao, which is basically a glaive. So this goes both ways.

    On the size thing, the term "span" is usually used in the same book for the Han era chi, which is some 23.1 centimeters. 7 span is thrown around as if it is impressive. 8 span is a big deal, reserved for characters like Zhang Fei and Zhou Zilong, and 9 span is left for Guan Yu, and a handful of characters that perform absurd feats of strength (read: Dian Wei holding a massive banner with one hand that dozens of soldiers couldn't keep upright). By modern standards - including modern Chinese standards, 8 span isn't even that tall. Just shy of 185 cm, whoop de doo. 9 span is, but even it is just under 208 cm, and that is hardly legends.

    On a side note, its not exactly a realistic book. Parts of it are, and much of it follows history closely, then suddenly completely fictional characters are brought up, or some 12 span elephant rider with a whole host of tamed animals and soldiers in rattan armor are fended off by fire breathing mechanical beasts. Then its back to romanticized reality, just as quickly.
    Last edited by Knaight; 2011-10-16 at 06:05 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    That "source" is about 600 year old and even today 162 cm (7 span) is the average height for men in many south-east asian countries. In the 19th century average height for men in the Netherlands was only 164 cm. In 14th century china that would have been quite impressive.

    184 cm (8 span) is taller than the average man in the Netherlands today, and they are the are pretty much the talest people ever in the history of mankind.
    Last edited by Yora; 2011-10-16 at 06:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    That "source" is about 600 year old and even today 162 cm (7 span) is the average height for men in many south-east asian countries. In the 19th century average height for men in the Netherlands was only 164 cm. In 14th century china that would have been quite impressive.

    184 cm (8 span) is taller than the average man in the Netherlands today, and they are the are pretty much the talest people ever in the history of mankind.
    Closer to 590, and it illustrates the disparity quite nicely. 7 span (or more accurately, 7 Han chi) is average. Not exceptionally tall, not the sort of exaggerated figure you expect to get thrown around - though Luo Guanzhong was usually faithful to reason when describing heights and distances, if not speeds or army sizes - and certainly not the sort of thing that gets used to explain just how big and imposing a great warrior is. Particularly when you consider the predisposition of increased height in the nobility or aristocracy, which was just as prevalent in China as in Europe, for similar reasons. 8 span is tall, sure, but its used to illustrate the might of figures who are portrayed as absurdly mythical. Someone described as 8 span in Romance of the Three Kingdoms is liable to ride down into an army alone, grab a couple of generals, and ride off in the narrative. Only the 9 span figure even makes sense connected to "great and tall and mighty" in modernity, and it was used for something closer to supernatural strength. Which clearly illustrates that even people known as big and impressive centuries ago probably mostly weren't.

    As for its source, its a piece of highly important literature, of the sort which contains exaggerated battle prowess, yet nonetheless shows insight into the reality. It can provide an idea of the times just fine, and illustrates just how much smaller people were, much as the more realistic Icelandic sagas often give a decent idea of how personal combat worked, or the Homeric epics gave some idea as to cultural values.
    Last edited by Knaight; 2011-10-16 at 07:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    184 cm (8 span) is taller than the average man in the Netherlands today, and they are the are pretty much the talest people ever in the history of mankind.
    Uh, no, not at all - populations people of Dinaric Alps (spread among few Balkan Countries) are on average taller than Netherlanders, and Masai can be very well taller than that from millenniums. Just as many other shepherd and hunters from Africa.

    What I'm saying that you can't just say:

    In 14th century china that would have been quite impressive.
    It's very possible that people in 14th century China would be on average relatively small people, eating rice and some more rice, being rather tiny in result - but without any data it's really just assumption.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Question asked me by my 8yr old daughter yesterday and im completely stumped!

    Why is the famous Knights shield called a "heater" shield? is it possibly too do with the shape of the firescreens used in that time?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Wikipedia says the term is a rather recent invention based on the shape of clothes irons.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    How were metal spearheads historically attached to wooden poles? Did they just fit really snugly, did they have screw-on "back then," or was there some other means keeping them on?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheehelm View Post
    How were metal spearheads historically attached to wooden poles? Did they just fit really snugly, did they have screw-on "back then," or was there some other means keeping them on?
    It varied. Here's one example, of viking stuff, where spear heads were attached with a rivet. In addition to that, they were usually made to be a pretty close fit. Moreover, very early metal spearheads (bronze, if not just copper) may have used similar attachment as stone spearheads, the pictures below indicate a wrapped sinew attachement method, though there are others.
    Spoiler
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    Last edited by Knaight; 2011-10-20 at 02:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Could you wear brass knuckles and still be able to grapple or wield a sword effectively?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Could you wear brass knuckles and still be able to grapple or wield a sword effectively?
    I don't think so..... Depends on design, but I don't see the way.

    You could do mostly very basic grappling stuff, that doesn't require much grip.

    Of course, with brass knuckles, you can only need to stabilize you opponent for a small while, that's needed to release few good strike's given destructive potential of fist in it - but still it restricts fingers quite a bit.

    If get's a hold on the arm with knuckles, it can get pretty nasty for wielder, again depending on design, I guess.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    I don't think so..... Depends on design, but I don't see the way.

    You could do mostly very basic grappling stuff, that doesn't require much grip.

    Of course, with brass knuckles, you can only need to stabilize you opponent for a small while, that's needed to release few good strike's given destructive potential of fist in it - but still it restricts fingers quite a bit.

    If get's a hold on the arm with knuckles, it can get pretty nasty for wielder, again depending on design, I guess.
    Brass knuckles would be useless to grapple with, almost all of them include some kind of palm grip like thus:

    Spoiler
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    That palm protector would ruin any grip you might manage. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the work to grab at a sword with, but I'd think most folks would rather block a sword another way and keep their fingers.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Could you wear brass knuckles and still be able to grapple or wield a sword effectively?
    Not really.

    Even at their most basic, common brass knuckles restrict the spread of your fingers and feature a palm grip that helps the wielder stablize their grip and prevent tearing up their own fingers/hands. You have no way of spreading your fingers to grab someone, and the palm grip would preclude you from holding onto the hilt of a sword.

    That being said, there are some knives that have knuckles/dusters integrated into the grip, such as trench knives, though those are really to protect your fingers and help you hold on to the weapon rather than punch someone inna face.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Then there are the other cases. If pikes get close to muskets, the pikemen don't need to be good, its not even remotely fair in close range. Same thing with artillery, though at long range artillery has the capacity to devastate pikes.
    Despite the somewhat absurd concept that sets up the story (it involves time travel, and an N-60 machine gun at one point) 1632 (the novel) presents some pretty good battles between pikemen and arquebuses, and later pump action shotguns fire deer slugs.

    The Swiss pike squares are commented on as being exceptionally brave, even when facing a machine gun, and later German troops firing shotguns at a rate twenty times higher than an aquebus would have allowed.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Could you wear brass knuckles and still be able to grapple or wield a sword effectively?
    Some amount of grappling can be done with little or no grip - several Judo and Aikido throws come to mind.

    A sword is a different story altogether. A poor grip means you'll have little or no point control, may not even be able to keep the edge from twisting, and will probably easily lose it to disarms.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Raum View Post
    Some amount of grappling can be done with little or no grip - several Judo and Aikido throws come to mind.
    Going more basic - fundamental wrestling underhooks can be done without that much grip.

    If the other hand is free, possibilities remain even higher - all in all there's whole lot of locks and stuff performed with sword/weapon in the other hand in Talhoffer and other guys works.

    Still, options are limited, even if you can work around it well.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Could you wear brass knuckles and still be able to grapple or wield a sword effectively?
    You couldn't wield a sword while using brass knuckles, but plenty of swords have a knuckle bow that you could punch with if you got caught in close quarters.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    A gauntlet proves a similar improvement to punch impact and allows you to wield a sword. Most of us don't think about this, but plate armor can function as weapon in itself.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Could you wear brass knuckles and still be able to grapple or wield a sword effectively?
    Wield a sword? Not very well.

    Grapple? According to Kyle Maynard, you don't need hands (or legs) to grapple.

    He's a quadruple amputee wrestler.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    Wield a sword? Not very well.

    Grapple? According to Kyle Maynard, you don't need hands (or legs) to grapple.

    He's a quadruple amputee wrestler.
    That guy is pretty much slap to the face to anyone who goes with "I cannot do (insert stuff) I just don't have :x, y, b,"...

    But still such posts seem a little morbid, since his capabilities of actually using his wrestling in a fight are non existent.

    He once had an MMA fight with non handicapped person, just to show that he can. Bryan Fry danced around him for 15 minutes, jabbing him carefully not to actually hurt him, with car parked and general evacuation route in case the crowd would like to lynch him for fighting guy without limbs....
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2011-10-21 at 04:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    That guy is pretty much slap to the face to anyone who goes with "I cannot do (insert stuff) I just don't have :x, y, b,"...

    But still such posts seem a little morbid, since his capabilities of actually using his wrestling in a fight are non existent.

    He once had an MMA fight with non handicapped person, just to show that he can. Bryan Fry danced around him for 15 minutes, jabbing him carefully not to actually hurt him, with car parked and general evacuation route in case the crowd would like to lynch him for fighting guy without limbs....
    I would have bribed the guy controlling the lights so that when the fight started, id blast the limbless guy across the cage with a single shot, have the guy kill the lights, and run like HELL for the nearest plastic surgeon. Seriously, that has to be the biggest no win scenario ive ever heard of. Sure the guy himself probably would respect you for going all out against him like he wanted, but yeah, I cant even imagine the flash mob that would form if an MMA fighter SERIOUSLY fought him.

    Also, as gungho said, some knives have them built in. I actually have one myself. Its a decent blade, but id prefer it to be double edged. The brass studs can put a half inch dent in solid wood though.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    I have a question, why did the parthian cataphracts wield their lances with two hands? What effect does wielding a lance with two hands have as opposed to wielding it couched?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenos View Post
    I have a question, why did the parthian cataphracts wield their lances with two hands? What effect does wielding a lance with two hands have as opposed to wielding it couched?
    The whole couching concept wasn't really established there so the alternative was one hand, not couched. Using a lance in one hand without couching it really doesn't work that well.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenos View Post
    I have a question, why did the parthian cataphracts wield their lances with two hands? What effect does wielding a lance with two hands have as opposed to wielding it couched?
    Adding second hand allows tremendous grip and stabilization, especially when lance hits something hard - by adding pretty much whole back and torso to support the lance under the impact.

    Even well couched lance generally won't do the same trick, especially that lances with rondel or other element that pushed against wielders hand was relatively late 'invention'.

    AFAIR in Europe, up to the late 13th century lance would be still pretty much largish spear, usable not only as lance per se.

    I would have bribed the guy controlling the lights so that when the fight started, id blast the limbless guy across the cage with a single shot, have the guy kill the lights, and run like HELL for the nearest plastic surgeon. Seriously, that has to be the biggest no win scenario ive ever heard of. Sure the guy himself probably would respect you for going all out against him like he wanted, but yeah, I cant even imagine the flash mob that would form if an MMA fighter SERIOUSLY fought him.
    Guy probably quite simply needed the money, so bribing anyone is not good idea.

    Instead, Fry simply jabed him for 15 minutes, while jogging around, took the "decision" and left.

    Spoiler
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    Generally it still had to be pretty damn disturbing sight, and I can't say I really get Maynard's thinking... I understand whole " breaking the barriers" attitude, but sill....
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2011-10-22 at 05:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenos View Post
    I have a question, why did the parthian cataphracts wield their lances with two hands? What effect does wielding a lance with two hands have as opposed to wielding it couched?
    they didn't have stirrups, using a different saddle design which gripped the rider at the waist, which held you on but didn't let you stand up in the saddle and bring your whole body weight into a blow, which made couching the lance diffcult (as it was likely to be ripped out of your hand before serious damage was done to the target), and it's harder to generate much force/"get your weight behind" a one handed stab when sat down/in the saddle , so holding it two handed allowed the pre stirrup horseman to get the leverage and grip to hold onto his lance while still getting a good thrust behind it. the late roman heavy cavlary did the same, as did the early Carolingian knights.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
    But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

    "Tommy", Rudyard Kipling

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