No Holds Optimization Request

[Abaddon87]

A while ago I had some quesitons about the Symbiotic template from SS. Having realized that Host creatures with this template get the special abilities of the Guest creature as well as the mental ability scores of the Guest, but use the Host's HD/LVL/LA, well lets just say I want to see how broken that can be.

So lets say your Host is a lvl 1 Human whatever (insert your desired class here) with all 10s for the stats. Add this +1 tempate to him and give my your craziest example of the Guest. Stack all the templates you want (an can) since it doesnt matter what the Guests HD/LVL/LA is. What kind of monster can you build OR what would be your favorite Guest to use to make an interesting/OP/whatever character. What special abilities would you like to add to this lvl 1 character?

Remember, show me all the crazy that you got! I want to stretch the bounds of broken!

[HunterOfJello]

Pun-Pun attaches to a large creature as a symbiote. Pun-Pun quickly absorbs the large creature into his being. Pun-Pun is still the most powerful creature available.

Fin.

[Abaddon87]

Pun-Pun attaches to a large creature as a symbiote. Pun-Pun quickly absorbs the large creature into his being. Pun-Pun is still the most powerful creature available.

Fin.

Oh common, dont take the easy way out!

Give me something to ponder, laugh, or stare in horror at!

[PirateMonk]

So, would a Beholder symbiote give its host an anti-magic eye to poke out and become a Beholder Mage?

I don't really have enough books to figure out what creature has the most ridiculous abilities. Titan for the Gate chain? Would a dragon pass on its spellcasting?

[Abaddon87]

So, would a Beholder symbiote give its host an anti-magic eye to poke out and become a Beholder Mage?

I don't really have enough books to figure out what creature has the most ridiculous abilities. Titan for the Gate chain? Would a dragon pass on its spellcasting?

The only limitation is size and creature type. Guest and Host must be either a Plant, Vermin, Humanoid or Animal creature type (they dont have to be the same type). The Host must be at least one size larger than the Guest. Thats it. As long as the special abilities can be used while attached to something else, the guest can do it (ie a snake Guest couldnt constrict something while attached to the Host, it would have to detach itself)

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

A Greenbound (Lost Empires of Feyrun) Wendigo (Fiend Folio) Puppeteer (Expanded Psionics Handbook) have fun.

[Abaddon87]

A Greenbound (Lost Empires of Feyrun) Wendigo (Fiend Folio) Puppeteer (Expanded Psionics Handbook) have fun.

Now there ya go! Thats what I'm looking for. A footless plant slug ghost with psionics... crazy!

How could we make this even more over-powered? Any other crazy templates we could stack on?

[Tokuhara]

Now there ya go! Thats what I'm looking for. A footless plant slug ghost with psionics... crazy!

How could we make this even more over-powered? Any other crazy templates we could stack on?

I dig the idea of:

Host: Tainted One Magic-Blooded Silverbrow Human Sorcercantrix build
Guest: Greenbound Paragon Pherenic Quorbound Brain Mole

The Human uses traditional magic while the Mole backs him up with psionics

[ranagrande]

Maybe something like a

Paragon Mistling Voidmind Acidborn Wood Element Spellwarped Half-Fey Half-Dragon Insectile Dark Shadow Primordial Werebadger Half-Troll Half-Vampire Chameleon Anarchic Draconic Phrenic Woodling Amphibious Reptilian Winged Muckdweller

I'm sure you can still do better though.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I dig the idea of:

Greenbound Magic Blooded Half-Fiend Paragon Puppeteer

This won't work due to greenbound's restrictions.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe something like a

Paragon Mistling Voidmind Acidborn Wood Element Spellwarped Half-Fey Half-Dragon Insectile Dark Shadow Primordial Werebadger Half-Troll Half-Vampire Chameleon Anarchic Draconic Phrenic Woodling Amphibious Reptilian Winged Muckdweller

I'm sure you can still do better though.

The resulting creature would be a Dragon, and wouldn't be eligible for half of those templates (including Symbiotic).

[Demonic_Spoon]

The resulting creature would be a Dragon, and wouldn't be eligible for half of those templates (including Symbiotic).

Not to mention it would only be able to breath acid.

[ranagrande]

The resulting creature would be a Dragon, and wouldn't be eligible for half of those templates (including Symbiotic).

No, it wouldn't. As per the template stacking rules in Savage Species, Aberration overrides Dragon. In fact, the creature in question is never a Dragon. Its type changes from Monstrous Humanoid to Giant to Aberration to Plant, which is eligible for Symbiotic.

Primordial and Werebadger should probably switch places though.

[Chess435]

The thing I love about these forums is that when somebody mentions, out of all things, a werebadger, nobody even bats an eyelid.

[Flickerdart]

No, it wouldn't. As per the template stacking rules in Savage Species, Aberration overrides Dragon. In fact, the creature in question is never a Dragon. Its type changes from Monstrous Humanoid to Giant to Aberration to Plant, which is eligible for Symbiotic.

Primordial and Werebadger should probably switch places though.

Half-Dragon makes the character a dragon. Woodling also can't affect aberrations, so if you plan to override Dragon with Aberration, then you can't use it. Unless you're stacking things differently?

[ranagrande]

Half-Dragon makes the character a dragon. Woodling also can't affect aberrations, so if you plan to override Dragon with Aberration, then you can't use it. Unless you're stacking things differently?

In my example, templates are listed with the most recently applied first. So when Woodling is added, it is only an Amphibious Reptilian Winged Muckdweller, and still a Monstrous Humanoid.

If you are following the Type Pyramid and stacking rules in Savage Species, then Half-Dragon does not make the chacter a dragon because by that time the character is already an Aberration.

If you are not following the rules in Savage Species, then Half-Dragon will make the character a Dragon and then Half-Fey will make it a Fey, and then we can switch Wood Element with Greenbound (because the former works on Aberrations and the latter works on Fey) and still end up with a Plant type creature ready to become Symbiotic.

[Abaddon87]

I'm liking what I see so far! Thanks for all the posts guys and gals.

Thats one crazy creature you made there ranagrande... I'm having a hard time just visualizing all the abilities that creature would have!

What would you use as the creature for all that? Or was it the Muckdweller?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, what you want is an emortal host and a powerful guest.

Human (trollblooded) barbarian frenzied berzerker with flameing rage and a rin gof acid immunity. Now your character is immortal, can't die from damage. (to bad warforged can't be a host, it can get worse)

For the guest, I want to go with perminantly small (through wish or something) mindflayer psion 20.

The story is the mindflayer tried to eat the brain of the immortal berzerker and now can't get off!

[Abaddon87]

Haha nice story Mr Sword!

What other creatures could be used for immortality? Maybe a swarm for immunity to weapons?

[Fouredged Sword]

A trollblooded (aquired through flaws) warforged with the feat that lets them ignore non-lethal damage, flameing rage, and a ring of acid immunity is even more imortal.

Doesn't landforged walker turn you into a plant or something? Ether that or dustform and then something to turn giant into something hosteable. That may work as the host for even more unkillability.

Literaly no damage can hurt you. Take the rage that auto activates at low HP and nothing can kill you. Fire is the only thing that deals damage and that stops hurting at 5hp. everything else is converted to non-lethal damage and you are immune to that.

A warforged juggernaut becomes immune to ability damage, drain, negative levels, and mind effecting effects, and is rageing as long as it wants.

Now find a way to turn him into something hostable without loseing those abilities.

[Abaddon87]

For the guest, I want to go with perminantly small (through wish or something) mindflayer psion 20.

This makes me wonder. Aside from wish madness... how can you make the Guest you want smaller if its too big?

[Fouredged Sword]

A kobold of any size always counts as tiny.

Now we need to use a collosal kobold (template stacking probobly) as a guest for a halfling.

[Wings of Peace]

Swarm + Verminlord?

[Flickerdart]

A kobold of any size always counts as tiny.

Now we need to use a collosal kobold (template stacking probobly) as a guest for a halfling.

Wrong. Kobolds have Slight Build, which lets them count as one size smaller when subject to a size modifier on an opposed check, squeezing or using weapons.

[ranagrande]

I'm liking what I see so far! Thanks for all the posts guys and gals.

Thats one crazy creature you made there ranagrande... I'm having a hard time just visualizing all the abilities that creature would have!

What would you use as the creature for all that? Or was it the Muckdweller?

Yes, it is the Muckdweller, a Tiny Monstrous Humanoid from the Forgotten Realms book Serpent Kingdoms, the book that makes Pun Pun possible.

If you were willing to go with a larger Host, perhaps a Horse or Camel to keep the Hit Dice low, then you could use a Gnome or Halfling Guest to open up the Humanoid templates and make it even more ridiculously powerful.