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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Dear all,

    i was thinking about playing a summoner in our next Pathfinder adventure. Since i am a fan of fluid gameplay / Initiative i dont want to bore my fellow players to death with summoned monsters spamming our initiative.
    So i decided for the Synthesist variant.
    But after i finished building the Character everyone thought the build was far too powerful.
    I dont want to copy all the details but i even did not use str. dex. and con. as total dump stats.
    But a 1st lv Synthesist with summoned eidolon seems to be more powerful than the average 1st lv Character since he has spells and full BA nat armor and so on.

    Whats your point of view? Have any of you had this problem? How can i cap the Synthesist without crippling it. Does this Advantage persist over the next levels?

    Thank you for your Help!

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starspawn View Post
    But a 1st lv Synthesist with summoned eidolon seems to be more powerful than the average 1st lv Character since he has spells and full BA nat armor and so on.
    At the early levels? Yes, you are superman. You fight like a Barbarian, and cast like a (Wizard power, Bard# slots). But these will both diminish some as you level.

    You have limited action economy, you cannot cast and fight in the same round (whereas a normal Summoner could cast, while his Eidolon fights)

    While you have the 'power' of a full caster, you have greatly limited spell slots (same per level as a Generalist Wizard, but only 6 levels of slots instead of 9).

    Also, if you are ever without your 'Eidolon-Form' you become much less of a threat (still a threat, but less so).

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    your con is important for your hp so you cant dump it completely.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    togapika's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Your physical stats are always replaced with the eidelon's, even if yours are better...
    You also have to decide between buffing and wading into combat from round to round
    Also you don't get access to the most powerful spells Wiz/Sorc's do
    Last edited by togapika; 2011-10-01 at 12:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredaintdead View Post
    *high fives*
    Someone get this man a medal, because he either reads my posts or my mind.

    Avvy by azuyomi244
    A Warforged Warlock who thinks he's a gnome in a power-suit?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    i appear to have been mistaken you keep your own hp to add to the eilodens but your con score is still replaced and it doesn't have a clause saying you hp isn't affected by the change to con

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Technically you could stay in your eidolon form as long as you are awake. So the only vulnerability is sleeping. You could even heighten your diplomacy by 8 points which guarantees you excellent social acceptment of your eidolon.
    Anyway. I was thinking about reducing the daily time you can summon your eidolon. Probably to 1h/lv while reducing the casting time to two standard actions.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starspawn View Post
    Anyway. I was thinking about reducing the daily time you can summon your eidolon. Probably to 1h/lv while reducing the casting time to two standard actions.
    Er, why? Either that means you can't use your main class feature in several encounters a day, or it becomes meaningless after a few levels when you have enough hours to have the Eidolon up all the time.

    If your players think the Synthesist is overpowered, tell them that it is actually much less powerful than a normal Summoner due to basically losing a whole second set of actions.
    Last edited by Curious; 2011-10-01 at 02:38 PM.
    Prestige Bard, updated for Pathfinder.

    Revamped Spell Resistance system, for use with Spell Points/Psionics.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Drothmal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    At the early levels? Yes, you are superman. You fight like a Barbarian, and cast like a (Wizard power, Bard# slots). But these will both diminish some as you level.

    You have limited action economy, you cannot cast and fight in the same round (whereas a normal Summoner could cast, while his Eidolon fights)

    While you have the 'power' of a full caster, you have greatly limited spell slots (same per level as a Generalist Wizard, but only 6 levels of slots instead of 9).

    Also, if you are ever without your 'Eidolon-Form' you become much less of a threat (still a threat, but less so).
    +1

    This is one of the best summaries I've seen of pros and cons of the syntesist

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    So is there any option or House Rule any of you uses to balance the summoner? IMHO this class is outright broken when starting at 1st. Lv.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Larpus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Considering that you get to choose how your Eidolon turns out, then the Eidolon/Synthesist is only as strong as you make him.

    So if you/someone thinks it's too powerful, grab more utility evolutions and maybe a small nerf to the extra HP, but honestly I dunno which combatant wouldn't like the weight off their shoulders when it comes to soaking damage.
    Last edited by Larpus; 2011-10-02 at 05:40 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    panaikhan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    When I statted up my Halfling Synthesist, I went out-and-out Tank.
    Not much in the way of damage output (being out-stripped by the Sorcerer and his crossbow is a little embarassing) but definately 'threat' and 'damage sponge'

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    The question is not 'is the synthesist too powerful' but 'is the summoner too powerful'. Synthesist is a step down, you trade a lot of power in the action economy (going from two creatures to one) for survivability. There are some nice abuses, like dumping your str and dex and wearing your 'power suit' all day, but that's offset by being unable to full attack with the eidolon's impressive number of natural weapons and still cast spells.

    Though as some have pointed out, it is more of a bell curve. Synthesist starts out very strong, full BAB and 18+con hp with plenty of powerful natural attacks. Once the other casters start catching up, the Synthesist takes his place in low T2 high T3 with the other spells known casters. If you wanted a compromise, lower the humanoid's HD to d6 and have it use the humanoid's BAB. That makes it a little bit more manageable while still being viable at higher levels. It should be fine though, at low levels 18 HP won't save you, and at higher levels you're vulnerability to spells designed for use against outsiders offsets your increased survivability.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

    Hi

    The Synthesist can fulfill more than one role (tank/buffer/battlefield control), and is proportionally more powerful at early levels.

    As for economy of action - IMHO the bonuses you get (survivability et al)outweigh the loss. But this is down to personal taste/playstyle.

    Biggest weakness of Synthesist is the Dismissal spell. However the Synthesist can benefit from the Augment Summoning feat when casting Summon Eidolon (Summoner 2). Lasts for 1 min/lvl, and makes your Eidolon suit even more powerful!
    Note: Augment only works with the spell, NOT the normal summoning, which takes a ritual (not spell).

    So for early levels it's powerful, by the time Dismissal is on the NPC's spell list, it's not.
    Dismissal:You may have started out this morning as a powerful dragon wielding many 2H wpns, but now you're just party buffer/battlefield control. And squishy!

    Please note in Pathfinder Society Games characters 'retire' at 12th lvl, just at the time Synthesists start to be a riskier option.

    Finally, Synthesist is better at low level, risky later vs dismissal. Dragon Disciples get good bonuses, and aren't dismissable.

    Thanks
    Paul H
    (PFS Synthesist player)
    Last edited by Paul H; 2011-10-03 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Can't Spell!

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