[D&D 3.5] Epic Truespeak (WIP, PEACH)

[RaggedAngel]

I believe with epic progressions you start the chart with 21. It's been a long time since I saw the epic handbook thing, though, so I'm not sure.

Whoops. I Copy-pasta'd the chart from the Fax Celestia's homebrew helper thread and forgot to change the levels. Thank you for the catch.

*whisks off to fix*

EDIT- BAM. Intensify Utterance and Persistent Utterance are up. What do you think of the DC increases?

[Cieyrin]

The new Epic feats look fine to me. The pattern in ToM for Metatruenaming is +1 SL = +5 DC but I don't think that Intensify or Persistent are wrong for the DCs they set for themselves, given the ridiculous inflation that's already in place.

What I think there should be is, much like how how psionics has Power Knowledge and regular casting has Spell Knowledge, there should be a method for epic Truenamers to pick up new utterances of any level, as there may be some that they missed the first time around that the current feats miss. Some epic Recitations would also be good, something actually worthwhile to use, as current Recitations are rather lackluster.

[RaggedAngel]

The new Epic feats look fine to me. The pattern in ToM for Metatruenaming is +1 SL = +5 DC but I don't think that Intensify or Persistent are wrong for the DCs they set for themselves, given the ridiculous inflation that's already in place.

Whoops, I didn't even notice that the first time around. I'll go and change that; it doesn't affect the DC's much, and patterns are nice.

What I think there should be is, much like how how psionics has Power Knowledge and regular casting has Spell Knowledge, there should be a method for epic Truenamers to pick up new utterances of any level, as there may be some that they missed the first time around that the current feats miss. Some epic Recitations would also be good, something actually worthwhile to use, as current Recitations are rather lackluster.

Hm. Should that be an Epic feat or just a normal one? Hard question. As for the Epic Recitations, I do intend to make some of those; I'm going to make sure they're worth giving your turn up for, don't worry.

[Cieyrin]

Whoops, I didn't even notice that the first time around. I'll go and change that; it doesn't affect the DC's much, and patterns are nice.


Hm. Should that be an Epic feat or just a normal one? Hard question. As for the Epic Recitations, I do intend to make some of those; I'm going to make sure they're worth giving your turn up for, don't worry.

Well, unless you want to supplant the current feats that grant new utterances of each of the lexicons, which I don't really mind, you could make it something like:

Utterance Knowledge [Epic, Truename]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 24 ranks, at least one 4th level utterance from the Lexicon of the Perfected Map known
Benefit: You learn two new utterances of any level from any lexicon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn two new utterances.

[RaggedAngel]

Well, unless you want to supplant the current feats that grant new utterances of each of the lexicons, which I don't really mind, you could make it something like:

Utterance Knowledge [Epic, Truename]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 24 ranks, at least one 4th level utterance from the Lexicon of the Perfected Map known
Benefit: You learn two new utterances of any level from any lexicon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn two new utterances.

Well, [Truename] isn't actually a feat tag, but other than that this looks perfect. I'll go update the feat list.

[Cieyrin]

Well, [Truename] isn't actually a feat tag, but other than that this looks perfect. I'll go update the feat list.

I blame Realms Helps and not actually getting my copy of Tome of Magic out for reference. >_>;;

[RaggedAngel]

I blame Realms Helps and not actually getting my copy of Tome of Magic out for reference. >_>;;

Don't sweat it, man. There isn't much about the Truenaming chapter that makes much sense.

Now then, as for Recitations, would you all agree that the general thematic idea is a chant in Truespeak that empowers or guides you, but takes up your standard/full action? I think I have a few ideas for some Epic ones; they may even be strong enough to spend a feat on. I'll put them up later today.

[Cieyrin]

Don't sweat it, man. There isn't much about the Truenaming chapter that makes much sense.

Now then, as for Recitations, would you all agree that the general thematic idea is a chant in Truespeak that empowers or guides you, but takes up your standard/full action? I think I have a few ideas for some Epic ones; they may even be strong enough to spend a feat on. I'll put them up later today.

Recitations are speaking your personal true name in a certain manner to change yourself in relation to the universe. By emphasizing different parts, you get different effects. You can also remind the universe of how you should be and thus become so.

[wiimanclassic]

Maybe something like having a group of True Speakers all trying to chant the same thing or some kind of boosting chant for the one going for some high DC effect?.....wait that would then be abused to use First Word after taking leadership and getting an army to boost you.

[RaggedAngel]

Epic Recitation Feats

All Recitation feats take a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to perform. The Truespeak DC for an Epic Recitation Feat is 15+(2*your HD)+2, and you gain a +4 bonus on this check due your skill at speaking your own personal truename.

Recitation of the Indomitable State [Epic, Recitation]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 24 ranks, ability to speak utterances, must know your own personal truename.
Benefit: While you speak your Recitation of the Indomitable state you inexorably tie the truename of defense into your own personal truename, making yourself an untouchable bastion of defense. All melee and ranged attacks have a 100% miss chance against you, and all of your saving throws are treated as if you rolled a natural 20.

Recitation of the Inert State [Epic, Recitation]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 24 ranks, ability to speak utterances, must know your own personal truename.
Benefit: The Recitation of the Inert State is a last resort, a final and perfect defense against anything and everything the universe has to offer, but at a steep cost. You set your personal truename in stone; unchanging, unyielding, and perfect. While you are speaking the Recitation of the Inert State you cannot take any other action, including Swift or Immediate actions. As long as you continue to speak the Recitation of the Inert State your body and mind become completely unchangeable; though your lips continue to move and speak you are frozen in time. You can observe the world around you, but you can take no actions to change it unless you cease speaking the Recitation. You do not age, nor do you need to eat, sleep, or breath. You cannot be affected or moved in any way; teleportation spells instantly fail, and even removing the earth from beneath your feet would not make you fall.

Recitation of the Watchful State [Epic, Recitation]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 24 ranks, ability to speak utterances, must know your own personal truename.
Benefit: You tell the universe that you can see the world around you with such force and power that nothing remains hidden to your eyes. While you are speaking this utterance no creature within your line of sight is considered hidden or concealed from you, and you are aware of creatures that have total cover from you, though you cannot actually perceive them. No form of magical or nonmagical invisibility or illusion can deceive you. Additionally you can see the true form of any creature under the effects of an Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange, or similar spell or ability in addition to its current form.

Recitation of the Omniscient State [Epic, Recitation]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 27 ranks, ability to speak utterances, must know your own personal truename.
Benefit: You intricately wrap words of knowledge and understanding into your personal truename, and your mind expands to fill a void you never knew was present. While speaking this Recitation you gain a +10 perfection bonus on Knowledge checks and any Lore or Bardic Knowledge class feature you may possess.

Recitation of the Divine State [Epic, Recitation]
Prerequisites: Truespeak 30 ranks, ability to speak utterances, must know your own personal truename.
Benefit: You speak your own personal truename with such perfection and precision that reality itself bends its knee. While speaking this Recitation you are treated as a Rank 0 deity. Additionally, any creature, friend or foe, that can perceive you must make a Will Save (DC=10+1/2HD+Cha) or be dazed as long as you continue to speak.

These are a bit splashier, so let me know what you think. Remember that they take a Full-round action to use.

[Daftendirekt]

You cannot even understand the question, let alone the answer.

Duh, it's 42.

True Word(s) of Flight

"Aim for the ground and miss."

*dodges thrown books*

[RaggedAngel]

Duh, it's 42.

Knowing is not understanding.

"Aim for the ground and miss."

*dodges thrown books*

This works, except it would look more like "alk'jasd'gfiua'ebnuvcvnlu'awef".

[Story Time]

What an interesting thread! I'm not...really versed with truenamers. But I love the initial list of epic utterances! I'm also going to add this thread to my list.

But...there is...one...glaring thing that sticks out to me.

The First Word. This should have a reverse, yes? It's only an opinion, and I'm pretty sure what Angel was going for with the utterance to begin with...but... Well, could the First Word be a way to create a reality and the Reverse of it be used to end one?

Thanks for making and providing all this material.

[RaggedAngel]

What an interesting thread! I'm not...really versed with truenamers. But I love the initial list of epic utterances! I'm also going to add this thread to my list.

But...there is...one...glaring thing that sticks out to me.

The First Word. This should have a reverse, yes? It's only an opinion, and I'm pretty sure what Angel was going for with the utterance to begin with...but... Well, could the First Word be a way to create a reality and the Reverse of it be used to end one?

Thanks for making and providing all this material.

Actually, it's a common misconception that all Utterances have reverses. Only the Utterances in the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind have reversed forms; Utterances of the other Lexicons, and those without a Lexicon (which, admittedly, exist only in homebrew) do not have flipped forms.

Plus, I hope there isn't anyone powerful enough to research the True Word of Ending Everything Forever who's actually willing to do it. That suggests an Overdiety willing to end it all, which would be pretty awful.

[Story Time]

Well, the fashioner of the home-brew is certainly entitled to her opinion. I don't see it as a mis-conception that an utterance can have a reverse. I tend to think of it as an option...since I'm a bit of a linguist. Angel's opinion is not wrong, though. It's different and that's fine. The first time I read the description, I only thought automatically what I stated previously.

Actually, looking at it from Angel's perspective, I can see it as a re-write reality utterance rather than a make reality utterance. The descriptions of all the utterances were well done, I thought. I haven't had the chance to go over the recitations yet. I didn't mean to sound discouraging either and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I'm glad this unofficial expansion was added.

Also, no I'm not a fan of ending everything ever. That would be pretty mean. Probably both from a Player's perspective and a GameMaster's perspective. Assuming a truenamer even did learn how to use it, there's probably some other epic truenamer out there who erased their truename who could just as easily make another reality in its place. So ending everything, ever, forever...doesn't really exist in my philosophy.

Um...what's Angel's next project, if I'm allowed to be so curious?

[RaggedAngel]

Um...what's Angel's next project, if I'm allowed to be so curious?

Huh. I hadn't thought about it, but if I am to make another thing it would probably be a Truenamer/Arcane spellcaster PrC. I mean, there's a NewSystem/Arcane PrC for every single system in the game except Truenaming, so if nothing else I want to rectify that. I think the challenge is going to be making the Truenaming relevant in the character without significantly changing the character; sacrificing spells to lower the DC or affect more targets or some such.

So, yeah. Other than that, there isn't much I intend to work on; I haven't yet tired of 3.5, and I don't consider myself an excellent homebrewer. Even here I mostly just followed established patterns to their logical conclusion, which a well-built computer could accomplish.

[InfiniteNothing]

Okay, this... this is impressive. This is quite impressive.

If I might make one request, though? My GM uses Kellus's revised Truenaming rules. Do you think you could provide a conversion for your epic-level work so I can use them with those rules?

Link to Kellus's work: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961

[Story Time]

I hadn't thought about it, but if I am to make another thing it would probably be a Truenamer/Arcane spellcaster PrC.

Practice makes proficient? Please inform me if or when you start this prestige class. I would be interested in viewing what you designed. At the moment the only prestige class that strikes me would be one which focused on increasing truespeak competency. Or perhaps one which focused on lowering the natural difficulty of truespeech in a collection of small increments. Hm.

[Cieyrin]

Practice makes proficient? Please inform me if or when you start this prestige class. I would be interested in viewing what you designed. At the moment the only prestige class that strikes me would be one which focused on increasing truespeak competency. Or perhaps one which focused on lowering the natural difficulty of truespeech in a collection of small increments. Hm.

Something like the Ultimate Magus, I'd imagine, spending spell slots to decrease the difficulty of utterances and making Truespeach checks to reduce teh cost of metamagic on your spells or something like that.

[RaggedAngel]

Something like the Ultimate Magus, I'd imagine, spending spell slots to decrease the difficulty of utterances and making Truespeach checks to reduce teh cost of metamagic on your spells or something like that.

Exactly like that, yeah; and if anything I would have the PrC focus on Truenaming. Otherwise your regular casting would overwhelm your Truenaming, and it wouldn't get used for anything other than healing up after fights or buffing the rogue before they attempt to disarm a device.

Okay, this... this is impressive. This is quite impressive.

If I might make one request, though? My GM uses Kellus's revised Truenaming rules. Do you think you could provide a conversion for your epic-level work so I can use them with those rules?

Link to Kellus's work: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961

As for conversions to Kellus's fix, I'll look into it, but the purpose of this pile of homebrew is to simply pick up where official material left off. It's the least homebrewiest-type of homebrew.

[Story Time]

Something like the Ultimate Magus, I'd imagine, spending spell slots to decrease the difficulty of utterances and making Truespeach checks to reduce teh cost of metamagic on your spells or something like that.

Exactly like that, yeah; and if anything I would have the PrC focus on Truenaming. Otherwise your regular casting would overwhelm your Truenaming, and it wouldn't get used for anything other than healing up after fights or buffing the rogue before they attempt to disarm a device.

I think that I support this concept. I will admit that I am a bit ignorant about the particulars.

It's the least homebrewiest-type of homebrew.

It's kind of queer to me to think that someone else seems to have the same idea about truenamer correction that I do. But it's also kind of neat.

[RaggedAngel]

I'm about to play another (really the same) Epic Truenamer, so if anyone would like to look over the material here once more for any odd errors or suggest new Epic Utterances/Feats I'd be most thankful.

[Cieyrin]

I'm about to play another (really the same) Epic Truenamer, so if anyone would like to look over the material here once more for any odd errors or suggest new Epic Utterances/Feats I'd be most thankful.

Looking over 'em again, I'm not sure of a couple things. Things like if a Reversed True Word of Flight should really deny flight if the effect is too low level permanently or if the True Word of Negation would block Reversed Word of Nurturing chain's damage.

Other things I'd do is spell out explicitly what you get from Recitation of the Watchful State so you don't have to look up Divine Rank 0 every time. On the Epic Truenamer progression, I'd add to See the Named and Bonus Recitation that they continue to scale as you level.

Finally, I'd look up Dragon 346, specifically on Denouncements, which are a nice expansion to Truenaming, as well as Truename Scholar, which lets you speak a personal truename of another with as much confidence as your own, with the bonus to do so included.

[RaggedAngel]

Looking over 'em again, I'm not sure of a couple things. Things like if a Reversed True Word of Flight should really deny flight if the effect is too low level permanently or if the True Word of Negation would block Reversed Word of Nurturing chain's damage.

Hm. I'm reconsidering the permanent bit, and True Word of Negation really should block the Reversed Word of Nurturing's damage, just like how Epic spells overpower regular spells.

Other things I'd do is spell out explicitly what you get from Recitation of the Watchful State so you don't have to look up Divine Rank 0 every time. On the Epic Truenamer progression, I'd add to See the Named and Bonus Recitation that they continue to scale as you level.

I completely forgot about those; I'll make sure to add that in. It doesn't matter too much, but it's clumsy to not follow all the proper patterns.

Finally, I'd look up Dragon 346, specifically on Denouncements, which are a nice expansion to Truenaming, as well as Truename Scholar, which lets you speak a personal truename of another with as much confidence as your own, with the bonus to do so included.

There was a Dragon with Truenaming expansions in it? Crazy. I don't have access to the Dragon Mags, and they're more or less homebrew, so I don't think I'm going to be able to add this in.

[Cieyrin]

There was a Dragon with Truenaming expansions in it? Crazy. I don't have access to the Dragon Mags, and they're more or less homebrew, so I don't think I'm going to be able to add this in.

Dragon had everything, though whether it's well written or not is something else. I'm just saying you should have a look at them and possibly expand on them into Epic or nonepic material, as Denouncements are fairly well thought out and could definitely scale or be expanded, if you were so inclined. You can find them here, if you care to look them over.

[RaggedAngel]

I'll be honest here: This is the first time I'm personally going to be using Truenaming, and I'm only doing so because of a PrC which lets me augment my spells further. So take what I say with a salt hammer.

Life seems a bit askew, if only for the fact that you are more or less invincible unless everything is focusing you or something could normally one shot you. It seems a bit excessive. And as for its reverse, its a solid damage, but most things cap either at 20d6 or at least cap at current Caster Level. And that being on a successful save, it makes just about any Save-or-Die spell I could come up with pale in comparison.

Time's normal saying seems alright, like a sort of shortened Time Stop. But, this is just me because I'm not seeing any DC listed, or a maximum you can do on this, but you can take a -10 penalty to your Truenaming check to extend your Time-Stop-Thing by another round: Where's the limit?

Flight makes me giggle far too much. I like it, but I can't help but think of some old Truenamer being really pissed off at some birds who keep crapping on his stuff. That said, to permanently remove flight from a creature is a bit extreme; which, I guess, is Epic-tier.

I can put Negation at an actual gold cost at 2,160,000gp, but then there's the added immunity to Force, and half damage from magical and divine components. And its reverse is around 100 damage per round. The reverse I can see. That's cool. The negation itself is sitting unwell, if only for the fact that the only thing that can pretty much do any damage to it is something that can casually toss mountains due to how strong it is.

Perception is nice. I don't think you'd have any other ways to get it, so to actually be able to sense things that you normally wouldn't, or have to rely on others to sense for you, aaaaand the reverse overcomes a lot of debuff spells I could use.

So overall, its a hit-or-miss, which is just about all Homebrew ever. This is Epic, and the scale for it is so hard to get down, but overall it seems alright, given I don't think you intend to just auto-Life yourself to absurd heights and then just going around making everything a Stunned, Flightless, Blinded, Deafened, Flat-Footed, and Sickened cripple.

This is from an OOC thread where we were discussing this thread. I figured it was good to include here. I'm going to take several of these changes into account; Life is going to be depowered, Time will have some clarification, Flight will allow a save (and I'm going to shorten the stunning), Negation needs a look-over, and the First Word is perfect, as always.

[speeddemon]

I've looked at this and this seems like a realy good progression for the truenamer class to epic. I especially like the idea of the first word and the idea that you and the DM would switch spots if it was ever used . I don't quite get how Epic Truenaming works though. It says to gain more epic utterances you get one instead of increasing your truenaming when you gain a level. Does that mean you give up the XP needed to reach the next level or does your caster level not increase or what?

[RaggedAngel]

I've looked at this and this seems like a realy good progression for the truenamer class to epic. I especially like the idea of the first word and the idea that you and the DM would switch spots if it was ever used . I don't quite get how Epic Truenaming works though. It says to gain more epic utterances you get one instead of increasing your truenaming when you gain a level. Does that mean you give up the XP needed to reach the next level or does your caster level not increase or what?

It just means that you do not gain any lower-level utterances; you still go up in level, like with all Epic class progressions. Your caster level, such that it is, increases every level like normal.

[Lohj]

Hmm... for the First Word.
You need 50 Int.
That's very... drastic.
I get that you get to rewrite reality, but isn't that the case with most epic level characters?
Maybe I'm wrong.

[RaggedAngel]

Hmm... for the First Word.
You need 50 Int.
That's very... drastic.
I get that you get to rewrite reality, but isn't that the case with most epic level characters?
Maybe I'm wrong.

It really is not intended to be used in games, is the thing. I mean, you can say that Epic characters can rewrite reality, but what does that actually mean? Even with Epic Spellcasting, you have enormous limitations on what you can actually accomplish, and by the time you can rewrite reality in any literal way the game has long since ceased to be fun. The First Word is a plot device, a bit of backstory; not the tool of a playable character. 50 Int is just there as one of several very difficult requirements to make sure that it's clear that it is not to be trifled with.